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Mage The Ascension

Posted by JonKatz on Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:15 AM
from the the-mystical-corners-of-cyberspace dept.
It's amazing to encounter so prescient, political and imaginative a worldview as was brought us some years ago in -- of all things -- a paper-and-paper game called "Mage The Ascension." Like "Shadowrunner" and other compelling works, "Mage" is one of the memorable folktales of this culture, the sort of tales which now mostly seem to have taken sophisticated electronic form.

In White Wolf's explanatory "Mage" book, the lines between the good guys and bad guys are never clear.

In the old days, goes the backstory, when magic was real, a group of Mages -- mystics and sages who wanted to bring magic back to the world concluded that if enough of the population didn't believe in evil and danger, they would disappear.

Calling themselves the Order of Reason, some mages banded together to educate and enlighten the masses, using science and technology to brighten the world's darker corners. Over the years, however, as this Order became dominant, it began to promote conformity. Iconoclasts and deviants were gradually eliminated through the use of science, financial pressure and social ostracism.

Now known as the Technocracy, these mages wielded increasing control over mass media, education, technology and business; they even defined what was real and what wasn't.

It's amazing to encounter so insightful a worldview in a paper-and-pencil role-playing game. While mainstream society was dismissing geeks and nerds, they were increasingly retreating -- via games, MUDs and MOOs -- into their own folktales, fantasy worlds that foretold the future as brilliantly as Orwell or H.G. Wells. "Shadowrun," "Werewolf" and "Changeling" were escape routes, a new genre that offered some of the most revealing insights yet into the people who built (and are still building) the Net and Web, and creating continuing revolutions like the open source movement.

The legacy of the techno-outsider culture, such games have been partly supplanted by flashier entertainment systems from Nintendo and Sega, and technologically-sophisticated games like "Seaman." But these early stories were the precursors to a social revolution and its new worldview.

In "Mage", cynicism and lack of imagination exist only on the surface.

A shadowy world flourishes underneath this everyday one. In it, enchanters and sorcerers commune with powers that no mortal can see or believe.

The world (our world) is definitely a poorer place for the loss of faith in magic, but it's richer for a subterranean fantasy like "Mage," and for the caverns, tunnels, hidden rooms and pools of a score of virtual games. "Mage's" sci-fi spiritualism fits perfectly with the ascent of the Net and Web, where people with imagination, creativity, individuality and yearning have lots of dark corners to hide in. These geek refugees and artists still dip underground in search of their own shadowy worlds. Stories like "Mage" foresaw the amazing creative power of the Net, where the ability to personalize reality becomes commonplace. People can customize information, design their own spaces, role play on games and in chat rooms, express themselves freely. Online, the shadow world of the Mages has come to pass. And it's a much richer, darker and political kind of culture than the corporations who dominate entertainmnent generally permit in music or on screens.

"Imagine a world where visionaries struggle to bring wonder to the mundane," reads the "Mage" introduction. "Picture a war where the winners decide the fate of the world, and the losers are hunted for their presumption. ... Forging their own rules through the power of will, these enlightened few cast the shape of tomorrow. Ultimately, they seek to surpass the limitations of the universe, to transcend this reality through Ascension. Their special wisdom sets them apart forever -- they are mages."

In the dawn of the new millenium, the Mages warned, the Technocracy dominated the world and its people, using programs designed to subvert the remaining isolated pockets of deviancy.

Often, in fact, science and technology do fail to come to terms with their own complexity when managed by fallible and manipulable humans. Another brilliant vision of the future: in this world, with more technology than ever -- gene maps, supercomputing, artificial intelligence, wireless delivery systems, an avalanche of new software, plentiful bandwidth -- most people are never permitted or helped to understand it. The technology spawns all sorts of new devices, even while knowledge seems to shrink.

In our culture, reality certainly gets defined by technocrats who acquire and control media and culture -- journalism, Hollywood, music. People comfort themselves in the idea the the Net provides millions of diverse voices, but very few have any real influence or reach. Mass media still dominate the most influential people and institutions in the culture.

But for all the fantasy in "Mage," there's also relentless reality. There's a poignant chapter on dealing with "the Mundane World," where everybody has to go, at some point, to go to school, sleep or face the real planet.

Stories like "Mage" and "Shadowrunner" LINK often incoporate the idea of an awakening. Sometimes you awaken to magic; sometimes you simply awaken to the nature of the world. Some Mages get jarred into insight through a tramautic event; others experience a slow heightening of awareness.

The idea of the awakening is widespread on the Net, too, usually in a different context. The supplicant, often bored or disconnected from the traditional world, gets drawn into a new reality -- a game, perhaps, an e-mail exchange, a chatroom encounter, a revelatory programming experience. The Net is a particular world and many people talk of their sense of revelation and astonishment when they first enter and discover it. It is especially transforming because their lives are not the same afterwards.

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  • This is what happens when... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:12AM
  • paper-and-paper game? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:39AM
  • by Threed (886) <culturespy@gmail.LIONcom minus cat> on Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:33AM (#800857)
    Why'd I turn off the KatzFilter? Oh yeah, we were promised a /. printing of the new book. Did I miss that or something? Oh well. Just wanted to see if I was quoted in it.

    Anyway, Jon, don't go reading too much into White Wolf's stuff. Rule #1: It's just a frickin' game. (You take it too seriously and you wind up like Dallas Egbert) Rule #2: You can (and many storytellers do) throw out any White Wolf material you don't like (I throw almost all of it out, and I don't let my players use any material I don't own).

    The World of Darkness is a parallel to our world. It's recognisible enough to be realistic and fantastic enough to capture the imagination, sure, but it's just a backdrop for White Wolf's real product: The Storyteller System. Its only there so that neophyte Storytellers will have some stock material to base a chronicle on (and to inflate WW's profit margin).

    Here's something for you to think about for a second... When WW announced the latest revision of the Vampire: The Masquerade rules, the teaser hinted that computers and the internet would play a larger part in the game. Many fans flamed that Vampire: The Masquerade was turning into Vampire: The Cyberpunking. No one wanted the game to be refocused, rather we wanted a few holes in the rules plugged up.

    On the subject of Mage itself... A decent game, I guess, but Vampire really kicks ass. Personal preference? I don't know a single serious Mage player. Some of the Vampire fanatics own the Mage books, but only because they have the WW logo on 'em.

    I personally take offense at the often used line that RPGs are an escape route for tortured geeks. Pththbt... These games started as tabletop war games for military buffs. Hardly geek-like, eh? To get one of these games together and to keep it running smoothly, a Storyteller needs to have 1 million hit points and infinite charisma. It takes a good network of friends to do it right. Lots of communication and endless phone tag. Hardly socially inept, eh?

    The reason the kids in the DnD club were all beanie-heads is because these games take BRAINS to play. In a game where combat scenes can dilate game-time by a factor of 10 and require and ungodly number of die rolls, anyone who's not sharp as a tack with numbers, probability, and record keeping is going to go back to their Nintendo and play Ghosts-n-Goblins.

    The world is poorer for loss of belief in Magic? HUH?

    Who says the world has lost its faith? There's plenty of New Age shops and even mainstream bookstores have large quantities of texts on performing rituals and divination. The US Army was forced to allow Wiccans to practice at nearby campgrounds. The Catholic Church's leadership issues press releases that are picked up by the major news outlets. Wandering proselytisors (sp?) still ring my bell every once in a while.

    Even if the world had lost its faith, many would consider that a Good Thing(tm). How many lives have been lost over religious matters? Even if you count just those that had something to do with someone's idea of "Magic", there's been plenty of documented witch-burnings.

    And now, the haves vs. the have-nots... The great unwashed masses of the computer illiterate... Most of them consider their ignorance to be bliss. Case in point: My older brother gave up on computers at about the time I picked them up. Now he's a head taller than I am, gets all the girls, has a TAN, and loves life. Try explaining the DeCSS controversy to HIM! Does he like movies? Oh yeah. He digged The Matrix. To him, movies keep getting better. So what's the big deal? Nevermind.

    Knowledge isn't shrinking. It doesn't even SEEM to be shrinking. Breakthroughs are coming down the pike every day. No one person can know it all so it might seem bewildering, but each person's store of individual knowledge can only grow.

    I find the closing paragraph pretty ludicrous. No one has the "great revelation" experience on the net anymore. It's become another party-line. A global fun-zone. A really nifty way to slack off at work. The "pass this on" emails that go around give this one dead away... Americans are consumers, and we consume the net the same way we consume the telephone. Sometimes people look up at the clock and realize they've been online longer than they planned, but that's about the only great awakening that's going on. Business as usual, the net's a product now.

    The real Threed's /. ID is lower than the real Bruce Perens'.

    --Threed
  • [OT] Re: Your .sig by Phil Gregory (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @04:33PM
  • Culture? by mholve (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:17AM
  • Re:You miss the point; but so did Katz by Torin (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:50PM
  • Ars Magica, originality, and contribution... by freeBill (Score:2) Thursday September 07 2000, @02:23AM
  • Arthaus: I don't know why WW hasn't produced... by freeBill (Score:2) Friday September 08 2000, @03:14AM
  • Worst Katz Article Ever by Keith Russell (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:45AM
  • Doesn't anyone remember? by GypC (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:03AM
  • Mage and Me by JonKatz (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:34AM
  • Re:This is.. by Marcos the Jackle (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:48AM
  • Technology? by Chase (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:53AM
  • crime and punishment by Lemmy Caution (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:36AM
  • Aghast! by Jack9 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:36AM
  • by Omnifarious (11933) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:13AM (#800870) Homepage Journal

    I have also played White Wolf games and other RPGs for many years. Perhaps your ire is more of an inability to look at what you do in a wider context. I have had the same thoughts that Katz has, looking at the games and their storylines.

    Shadowrun is about the rise of corporatism. The Whitewolf games tend to be about alienation from society. Mage, in particular, has a lot to say about media manufactured reality.

    Why do you think role-playing games are so vehemently denounced by certain segments of our society, and almost always recieve shoddy treatment at the hands of Hollywood. It certainly isn't because they're tales told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. If you want that, watch your average Hollywood action movie.

    I'm not some deconstructionist literary geek with my head stuck in my navel (or some other part of my anatomy). He has something interesting and important to say. Listen to it. Maybe you'll learn something.

  • the unusual form that is the RPG by r (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:29AM
  • *cough* by Boolean (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:45AM
  • by Alternity (16492) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:26AM (#800873)
    I actually played that game a lot. Even for the non-rpers, the main book is a really interesting read. White Wolf [white-wolf.com] has created a really rich and interesting setting around that game, bringing interesting ideas and views of magic making the main book of that roleplaying game as interesting to read as many novels I have read.

    At the forefront of that game is the conflict between technology and freedom, imagination and 9 to 5 boring lives, between fantasy and modern life.

    I would definitly recommend that book to everyone, roleplayer of not. And to roleplayer I really recommend that game as it is IMHO one of the best RPG even...

    You could also check out Ars Magicka which was the first game of white wolf (now published by another company I can't remember which one) which is kind of the basics for mage : the ascension bringing you among the middle ages magi.
  • Re:I blame myself.... by dillon_rinker (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @12:57PM
  • You != OthersInTrailerPark by FatSean (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:58AM
  • Re:The fatal flaw... by Badgerman (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:24AM
  • by Badgerman (19207) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:22AM (#800877)
    First of all, the idea of an ascendion, enlightenment, etc. is not new. It's very, very old, thanks to some "psychepunks" like Buddha, Lao-Tzu, shamans, Chuang-Tzu, Sufi mystics, etc. Hell, Ken Wilber's book "No Boundary" fairly laid out parrerns of concious development that lead to better, healthier, more "enlightened" mental functioning. "The Secret of the Golden Flower" has been translated and commented on endlessly, and focuses on similar issues.

    Snapping out of mundane, neurotic mental states is old hat.

    Secondly, the "secret society of do-gooders" views of Mage and Shadowrun (NOT runner) aren't exactly reassuring in my book. It's another form of elitism - "look I'm so cool as I battle the Evil Other Guys." It's the desire to be validated via conflict - which requires an enemy in the first place. Don't trust the Deathly Cool People In A Struggle - trust the people who are more concerned with the question "am I doing any good for the world?"

    Role-playing games are NOT guides to life. They're games, even with good research. Companies sell what will sell at the time. Sure, I enjoy them and I can learn about people from them - but when I want to change myself or the world I put down the dice and the manuals.
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by JabberWokky (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:46AM
  • .
    "'Mage: the Ascension' was nothing more than a cheap rip-off/riff on themes developped in cyberpunk."

    Having played Mage and loads of cyberpunk genre systems (I'm assuming that you were referring to the full genre due to the lowercase there), I would have to ake the observation that you are probably tokin' off of JonKatz's crack pipe.

    Okay, Jon is (once again), taking something, grabbing a corner of it, and spinning it into an essay that really didn't need the comparison.

    Mage: the Ascension in a Nutshell:

    All sentient beings shape reality by their perceptions of "what should be". Back in the middle ages, computers not only didn't exist, they *couldn't* exist, as people couldn't envision them. Computers did not fit into the worldview paradigm. At the same time, unicorns and dragons existed, and now they not only don't exist, they *never did*... because people don't believe they could have.

    Now, most people are "sleepers". They contribute to the shaping of reality like a cup of mixed concrete contributes to a large building. Even if they are wackos, they can't do anything to change reality by themselves.

    Certain people, however, are "awakened". These people are more like carpenders, electricians and demolitions men in the "building" of reality. Very, very rare, they can shape reality by affecting certain natural constants in various ways: Time, Entropy, Force, Mind, Matter, Spirit, Correspondance, Life and Prime. It is heavily implied that these natural constants are "natural" only because the Mages believe they are.

    Now, of course, for any good game, you have to have conflict. And Mage has got one heck of a thrilling idea for conflict: The War to Define Reality. Although there are dozens of groups who are only somewhat or not affiliated with the two sides, there are primarily two major groups that are locked in battle: The Technocracy, and the Traditions.

    The Traditions are pretty much what you think of when you think "Magick". They have the Druid like Verbena, the Crowley like Order of Hermes, the drug-taking free-love Cult of Ecstasy, and the Christian Celestial Chorus. They also include the hacker Virtual Adepts, and Mad Scientists of the Sons of Ether.

    The Technocracy include the New World Order, the Men in Black, Iteration X, Void Engineers and other groups that are more difficult to try and pigeonhole in a Slashdot post.

    The Tradition is attempting to spread Magick into the world, and either awaken the sleepers, or at least allow their paradigm to be widely used. You see, whenever a Tradition mage blows a fireball or magickally heals somebody, if a sleeper sees it, then reality itself will try and fix the "impossible" act via Paradox. That type of magick is called "vulgar", and Tradition Mages can't generally use it. They can, however, blow a fireball right after everybody smells gas (Mind+Forces or Matter+Forces), or wipe off the blood where they just got shot, and say "Thank goodness, it just grazed me!" as they heal the shot that tore apart their spine. This is coincidental magick, and it's really useful (you always have change for the bus, the cop is always around the corner when you need one, etc.)

    The Technocracy is trying to stop the Traditions, and bring in the new world of Reason. The technocracy would be publishing all the press releases in Slashdot about "invisible skin", getting the masses ready for their (already working) invisibility treatment. Iteration X would be releasing the Hong Kong security robots, while their "Terminator style" robots already wander the streets (and keep breaking down because reality hasn't been fully bent to accept them).

    The War is only the massive backdrop for the stories that you run in Mage. I have World of Darkness books measured by the yard... the whole cosmolgy is very well built, and it's a crying shame that most people only associate White Wolf with Vampire, as it is just one small part of a world full of very well placed and realistic stories of hope, love and glory. From the elegant and wild nature of the Changlings (Satyrs, Pooka, Trolls, etc.), to the dark, Lovecraftian horrors of the Balli to the Incarna of the planets (including the fragmented, always in pain Rorg who is the Incarna of the planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter), the World of Darkness is a phenominal setting for just about anything from Disney's Gargoyles (I'm running a game right now, Tuesdays) to the more common (but still fun) Mind's Eye Theater Live Action Vampire (and yes, I'm running the game Fridays in downtown West Palm Beach).

    And as for WoD being a rip off of Cyberpunk, no. (It's a rip off of Chill). :)

    [1] Yes, it's spelled Magick. In Mage, Magic is a trick, and Magick is shaping reality. Since both are used, it's handy to have an alternate spelling.

    [2] To players of Mage - yes, I skimped. This is for people who might want to audit Mage 101, not who are about to sit down and play. Mauraders, Nephandi, and how it ties into WoD cosmology were intentionally left out. Ain't no way I'm going to explain Horizon and the Deep Umbra in one sitting. And Third Edition is right out.

  • Re:*cough*Bullshit*cough* by FreekyGeek (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @06:06AM
  • Hey! by HunterZ (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:42AM
  • It wasn't a ripoff by kallisti (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:03AM
  • ach! mein kopf by j_d (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:10AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by webmaven (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:03AM
  • by RISCy Business (27981) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:55AM (#800885) Homepage
    Let's see. I've been a White Wolf player since, what, Vampire: the Masquerade came out? Yeah, about that time.

    Let's see. I've been an active player since then. So that would make it close to 8 or 9 years, as I recall, seeing as V:tM came out in, what, '91?

    I can safely say that, quite frankly, Jon is again reading into something that just isn't there. Trying to politicize and 'newsify' (is that even a word?) something that's been around since 1978 or so, seeing as that's when D&D First Edition came out.

    For the record, I've been playing RPG's for about 11 years. I started with D&D 2nd edition in 1989 and have been consistently and constantly playing in various RPGs ever since, including but certainly not limited to and definitely not in order of preference, D&D, AD&D, Mage: the Ascention, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Vampire: the Masquerade, Battletech, and various freeform RPGs.

    To try and make this into something it is not is an insult to those of us who DO play RPGs. RPGs predate the Internet, and in reality, have very little to do with it in any way shape or form, beyond the fact that communities surrounding RPGs have formed on it.

    Awakening? What is this bullshit? I mean, seriously, this is utter bullshit and not even yellow journalism. Yellow journalism involves actual JOURNALISM, which Katz is OBVIOUSLY incapable of.

    Go fucking read - the same stuff is in EVERY White Wolf game. Why? To add an element of realism , gods forbid we should have anything but FANTASY in an RPG. If you were a supernatural being, do you REALLY think that it would be easy to just get whatever you wanted whenever you wanted it, and get away with it? It's not even feasable to have anything resembling an education without painstaking attention to faking things in the so-called "real" world in a situation like that, which is what White Wolf points out. Christ. Katz must be illiterate. He seems to have also not noticed that the so-called "awakening" as he has dubbed it in his so-called infinite genius (*choking back laughter*) is always the late teens, in most cases 17 or so. Why? Because it's totally impractical to do it any other way and have anything resembling a cultured character, much less educated.

    Somebody needs to send Katz to a proctologist for his rectal cranial inversion problem, apparently. I mean, christ, I've heard the bullshit in the past, but this is beyond bullshit and flat out insulting. Christ. Give Katz one iota of credibility for the Hellmouth bullshit and he runs with it and runs off with the profits from other people's suffering. This is beyond absurd.

    What will it take to get Katz off slashdot? Fuck the checkbox - I don't want him spouting off any more bullshit for anyone to peruse. He obviously is incapable of decency, integrity, or intelligence. Where's natural selection when you need it? *sigh*

    =RISCy Business
  • Can't even remember the name? by AdamJ (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:09AM
  • Re:I blame myself.... by AdamJ (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:03AM
  • Usenet: The Flaming by Jay Carlson (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:28AM
  • Re:*cough*Bullshit*cough* by Ranger Nik (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:36AM
  • Sheep: The Catapulting by TheDullBlade (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:19AM
  • Why bother with magical fantasies? by TheDullBlade (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:28AM
  • Slashdot Collectable Card Game by remande (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:34AM
  • My iron in the fire. by jthm (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:56AM
  • Coming Tomorrow on Slashdot: by TheAmazingGoat (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:06AM
  • Stoned Again... by jpowers (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @04:22PM
  • It's on /. because he wants it there by jpowers (Score:2) Thursday September 07 2000, @03:17PM
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by jpowers (Score:2) Thursday September 07 2000, @03:24PM
  • Re:That is.. by Pathetic Coward (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:41AM
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by Skid (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:45AM
  • Re:That is.. by titus-g (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:44AM
  • Re:Huh... Can you say overanalysis? by titus-g (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:54AM
  • Re:Odd, but hey... by titus-g (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:36AM
  • Re:That is.. by titus-g (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @12:46PM
  • Useful tools. by ThunderFoot (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:45PM
  • by Zulfiya (44302) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:45AM (#800905) Homepage

    You know, I'm not usually a Katz-basher myself, but, please!

    Anyway, as far as Mage [white-wolf.com] goes, I'd rather Ars Magica [atlas-games.com] anyway. What's Ars Magica? Well, among other things, it's the system they took a lot of the philosphy and backstory from (back when White Wolf owned the system). Me? I thought it was better done, and it doesn't bog under the trendy cyber-goth woe-is-me-woe-is-my-world tone. Ever wonder where they got the Order of Hermes from? Why there is a clan of Vampire called the Tremere?

    Methinks somebody's been paying attention to White Wolf's own hype. After all, everybody knows Vampire is about the struggle with darkness within (which is naturally why so many people play it as superheroes with fangs). And Changeling is about the sorrow of our lost childhood. And Werewolf is about the sad demise of our environment. Just because they take themselves that seriously doesn't make them deep.

    It's a game. It's a game that's been out for years! This sort of article reminds me of the magazines in the early nineties touting their "new" discovery - the internet, as if it had only just begun to exist because they noticed it.

  • Re:This is.. by glyneth (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:03AM
  • Re:this is new? by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:21AM
  • this is new? by Hard_Code (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:20AM
  • What, no revolution this week? by British (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:46AM
  • I blame myself.... by ronfar (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:26AM
  • This is meaningless drivel by jcarley (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @03:26PM
  • D&D and software patents by Enoch Root (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:11AM
  • Re:What overanalysis? by Enoch Root (Score:2) Thursday September 07 2000, @11:18AM
  • by Enoch Root (57473) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:20AM (#800914)
    Even when it came out, 'Mage: the Ascension' was nothing more than a cheap rip-off/riff on themes developped in cyberpunk. Jon, you're getting worked up over nothing, and you're showing how shallow your actual geek culture is (ShadowrunNING? Can't you even doublecheck your facts?) Next, you're gonna tell us how accurate 'Hackers' was? Oh, and did you notice how Sandra Bullock's 'The Net' is an allegory for the loss of privacy in our modern society? Draw a parallel with the Number of the Beast, Iron Maiden, the Apocalypse, and you're set for a 10 articles feature.
  • Mage and Ars Magica: the blood ties by Shadowmist (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:29AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by mbroggy (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:15AM
  • Re:ach! mein kopf by radja (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:17PM
  • .. by vbrtrmn (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:56PM
  • Re:Slashdot Collectable Card Game by McSnickered (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:37AM
  • Re:*cough*Bullshit*cough* by dsplat (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:03AM
  • Re:OT- lucky bum by dsplat (Score:2) Friday September 08 2000, @05:13AM
  • Re:Stop moderating "Jon Erikson" troll account up by anonymous cowerd (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @04:56PM
  • Please by sdelk (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:52AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by vecna_99 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:01AM
  • What the hell is cyber-rape? by John_Prophet (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @07:22AM
  • Re:Not quite by White Wolf by Kidbro (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:28AM
  • Re:Not quite by White Wolf by Kidbro (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:11AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by jheinen (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:40AM
  • Games as Art - thanks JK! by scotfree (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:18AM
  • Re:hi jon by steelhawk (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:39AM
  • Humph... by azool (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:53AM
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by Lysis (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:04PM
  • Re:*cough*Bullshit*cough* by vampdsy (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:16PM
  • Re:Usenet: The Flaming by Deosyne (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:50PM
  • Re:This is.. by Deosyne (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @12:45AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by dapprman (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @12:21AM
  • Re:D&D 3rd edition Rule Set by dapprman (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @12:25AM
  • Re:It's SHADOWRUN, no er. by dapprman (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @12:30AM
  • Re:I'd rather play Ars Magica by koshi (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:22AM
  • OT- lucky bum by Ravagin (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @01:41PM
  • Re:You miss the point; but so did Katz by Bakeneko (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:40AM
  • Re:Speaking of building big mechs... by WinterKnight (Score:1) Friday September 08 2000, @06:10PM
  • Re:What the fuck by Ser\/o (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:34AM
  • Oh sure, "amazing" by Erik Fish (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:50PM
  • Re:Is this a game I've never heard of? by Nezumi-chan (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:15AM
  • Re:wow must be a first by Mr. Sketch (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:50AM
  • This is.. by -brazil- (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:18AM
  • Re:This is.. by -brazil- (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:26AM
  • Re:On Mage, WW, Ars, by Hookline (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:33PM
  • Re: your own analysis by techwatcher (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:46AM
  • Re:D&D and software patents by Fesh (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:02AM
  • Re:I blame myself.... by Fesh (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:11AM
  • It's SHADOWRUN, no er. by DrEldarion (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:19AM
  • Re:It's SHADOWRUN, no er. by DrEldarion (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:47AM
  • Re:Um... by FnordX (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:19PM
  • Re:And . . . by snarkh (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:47AM
  • Posted by Katz by lythari (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:21AM
  • Re:This is.. by Tarquin (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:11AM
  • Speaking of building big mechs... by Tarquin (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:44AM
  • Re:eh ? by Tarquin (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:18AM
  • My first flame by Bieeardo (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:26AM
  • Re:I can't believe I just read this. by jallen02 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:59AM
  • "Insightful"??? Derivative and typecast, more like by Grab (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:28AM
  • I can't wait... by ObligatoryUserName (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:15AM
  • I can't believe I just read this. by fimm (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:45AM
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by geekoid (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:27AM
  • faith in magic? by geekoid (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:33AM
  • [Offtopic] The rest of the story... by a42 (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:18AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by sckeener (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:13AM
  • Amber? by carlos_benj (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:02AM
  • Comparing the Net to a Waffle by ashultz (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:47AM
  • Re:That is.. by Anonymous_Hero (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:59AM
  • Re:...overanalysis? (Mage in a Nutshell) by kel-tor (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:30AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by JimPooley (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:33AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by JimPooley (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:44AM
  • Re:I'd rather play Ars Magica by Perdo (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:09PM
  • Re:This is.. by drinkypoo (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:29AM
  • Re:*cough*Bullshit*cough* by drinkypoo (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:01AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by drinkypoo (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @12:37PM
  • Re:Cyber-rape by drinkypoo (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @06:17AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by drinkypoo (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @02:09PM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by drinkypoo (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:38AM
  • Cyber-rape by chipuni (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @01:16PM
  • wow. I wish I could have slashdot access to post.. by Perianwyr Stormcrow (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:42AM
  • That article was self contradictory by OpenGL (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:21AM
  • Re:This is.. by Snocone (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:36AM
  • You miss the point; but so did Katz by Snocone (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:52AM
  • Hrmm. by Nidhogg (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:32AM
  • At least it's positive exposure... by IronChef (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:53AM
  • Please Make This Stop by pandich (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @12:20PM
  • Superstition, Fear, and Jealousy... by Hentai (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:40AM
  • Re:Superstition, Fear, and Jealousy... by Hentai (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:54AM
  • Jon.... by SquadBoy (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:33AM
  • Re:Speaking of building big mechs... by SquadBoy (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:04AM
  • Re:hi jon by photozz (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:47AM
  • On Mage, WW, Ars, (Score:3)

    by arete (170676) <areteslashdot2.xig@net> on Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:30AM (#800996) Homepage
    First off, I agree with everyone else - this is a pretty ridiculous story to come out NOW.

    Mage was a cool game - it came out when WW writers didn't suck, and when the majority of WW players didn't suck either, yet. (I'm aware I'm going to be killed by the loyalist goths out there - oh wait, you won't care enough to do it, because you're so sad...) I'd even still say it was worth the money - and that's rare to me.

    I've been gaming since '85 or so, and it would have been earlier if I was born earlier. I've been a fixture and GenCon, I've partied with WW, etc. I have the mint original V:tM Mind's Eye Theatre box set with unbroken blood capsules. (Sign language pictures with scantily clad women are a good way to sell a game.)

    To the best of my knowledge, it was a complete ripoff of Ars (I'd know more, but someone stole my copy of Ars before I'd really read it) but I'm basically okay with that - if they make better what they do. If "better" is add more vinyl and shadows, then they did. Also, the rules aren't terribly good - inventive, but not really good. A perfect GM can make this a very fun game - anything less and it is ridiculously easy to degrade, which is the major flaw in all WW games (and a bunch of others) I've seen -

    "that'd be cool. Let's put it in a game! Okay! Will it conflict with anything else? Nothing I can think of right now... (of course, I'm drunk right now...)" - typical developer conversation

    Now, a free-form magic system: inventive

    Putting "it could be happening now" and "no one's really the good guy" (both right out of VtM) along with that magic system, pretty good, too, although a pretty predictable combination, imho. At this combination they did a pretty good job (like I said, they didn't suck then) and I think it is a worthwhile game to own - even a good game to play for an experienced GM with a mature group. I wanted to make sure this was said along with the "this review sucks" chatter.

    Still though, as the life-changing event, I think it is rather shy.
  • cultural, political, technological and discontente by Virtual JonKatz (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:57AM
  • Mage != Shadowrun (Mage in a nutshell) by daitengu (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:03PM
  • Re:He's a journalist who writes essays for slashdo by daitengu (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:10PM
  • mad lib by wishus (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:40AM
  • Re:That is.. by talesout (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:36AM
  • Re:Please by talesout (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:08AM
  • Re:The World of Insufficient Light by Whelk (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @03:26AM
  • Next JonKatz article by LNO (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:19AM
  • The Evil Dreamers arise ..... by Alien54 (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:35AM
  • Not quite by White Wolf by jspey (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:45AM
  • Vampire: the Masquerade RPG by The Kow (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:50AM
  • It's SHADOWRUN you fucking moron. by PrimalChrome (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:54AM
  • Re:It wasn't a ripoff by PrimalChrome (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:00AM
  • Go Jon go..next:disillusion in The Prisoner TVShow by mbourgon (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:11AM
  • That lovable Seaman by gughunter (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:12AM
  • And also... by gughunter (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:35AM
  • Re:He's a journalist who writes essays for slashdo by gughunter (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:51AM
  • CHOMP! Gotchya... Reeling you in... by 109 97 116 116 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @12:28PM
  • wow must me a first by Sanchi (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:21AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by eudas (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:11AM
  • Re:Odd, but hey... by eudas (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:14AM
  • Re:only reading an article by katz.... by eudas (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:21AM
  • Re:Not quite by White Wolf by Luminous (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:50AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by Luminous (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:40AM
  • Re:Why Does Jon Katz Bug the Shit Out of Me? by Luminous (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @10:17AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by Luminous (Score:2) Thursday September 07 2000, @01:01PM
  • And . . . (Score:3)

    by Luminous (192747) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:25AM (#801023) Homepage Journal
    The concepts in Mage: The Ascension parallel literature back to the Greek and Hebrew mythology. Prometheus and fire, Adam, Eve and the Tree of Knowledge are but two examples of enlightenment.

    This is neither new nor revolutionary, and seeing Mage and Shadowrun have been around for many years, quite dilatory. The idea of the Net being a catalyst for awakening has also been dealt with in the cyberpunk genre. The Truman Show, Dark City, The Matrix, and recently The Cell, all have dealt with a concept of a manufactured reality, coming to terms with it and then using it to an advantage.

    I guess, in my attempt not to become a Jon Katz ragger, I am struggling to understand the purpose of this article. The meta conversation regarding whether or not it is in itself an attempt to force an awakening is moot since by its own terms it is already being aimed at 'the awakened'.

    Can anyone throw me a clue?

  • by Luminous (192747) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:34AM (#801024) Homepage Journal
    Actually, one of the key benefits of Mage: The Ascension, is its creation of a language in which to discuss concepts of whether or not reality is based on Belief or Actuality. Where does the concept of relativity fit into an absolute world?

    To one person I am a slacker, to another I am a deep thinker, and to another I don't even exist. My father considers what I do to be 'pansy-assed' my colleagues think I am one of the hardest workers around, and my friends don't understand what I do. I can go to a bar, meet someone new and create a whole new identity.

    Mage does play a role in this discussion only because it is a product of the discussion. It would not have existed if people weren't struggling with the ideas of Flexible Reality and Perception Based Reality. These issues will become more prevalent as we progress into Virtual Worlds. Already there are issues of whether or not cyber-rape has any actual psychological trauma.

  • ATTN JonKatz : Slashdot Posting Rules by billcopc (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @04:16PM
  • It's soo amazing by davonds (Score:1) Thursday September 07 2000, @04:31AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by Jon Erikson (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:31AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by Jon Erikson (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:45AM
  • Re:Amber? by Jon Erikson (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:57PM
  • Re:This is.. by Jon Erikson (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:51AM
  • by Jon Erikson (198204) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:28AM (#801031)

    I can state my familiarity with Mage, having played it and other World of Darkness games before, but I can honestly never say that I've noticed the link between it and the modern emergence of the corporate republic and the changes to socioeconomic factors caused by the growth of the net. Or something like that anyway.

    But let's take this analogy further. If Mage represents the struggle towards the new reality of the information age, what does say, Vampire represent? The parasitic nature of the corporate republic? And Werewolf? Perhaps the alienation of the geek, how they are both part of and outside of modern culture, and how their innermost self is not truly understood by normal people? I can't even think what Wraith or Changeling would represent.

    Anyway, next week: How Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition is a metaphor for the struggle against software patents.

    ---
    Jon E. Erikson

  • Actually... (Score:3)

    by Jon Erikson (198204) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:41AM (#801032)

    ... maybe Vampire should be used as a metaphor for the curse of having to develop parasitic proprietry software, thus sapping people of their resources. The ultimate aim of all programmers would then be represented by Golconda, the state of making a living writing GPLed software.

    ---
    Jon E. Erikson

  • the penny drops.... by Siggy_999 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @02:49PM
  • Re:Yeah Right by ellingtp (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:06AM
  • Um... by ca aoo = 999 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:18AM
  • Comparing Mage and ShadowRun... by Vuarnet (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:51AM
  • Re:What, no revolution this week? by Vuarnet (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:02AM
  • Re:Mage : the ascension == a must-read by Vuarnet (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:27AM
  • Re:Coming Tomorrow on Slashdot: by Vuarnet (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:34AM
  • What's the point? (Score:3)

    by alexpage (210348) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:22AM (#801040)

    I don't get what Katz is trying to get at here. I'm no Katz-basher - I have better things to do - but this article provokes nothing but a big "Huh?".

    Do roleplaying games feature quasi-occult minorities oppressed by the status quo? Sure. That theme is so widely used in society that restricting it to roleplaying games is ridiculous. Occasionally even, the status quo is shown in a good light for doing so (as an example, the oppression of Chaos cults in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, despite the point of view which states that not all Chaos is inherently evil).

    Does Mage have a particularly well-developed, fantastic background? I agree, it's damn good, but a lot of games are comparably detailed, and others don't need to be - a lot of players prefer a game where you don't have to totally immerse yourself in someone else's game world, and read x million sourcebooks.

    Are roleplaying games refuges for geeks fleeing the horrors of modern society? Not necessarily. I'm sure there are people (hell, I've met them) who use roleplaying as a form of escapism from a world where they don't fit in, but there are plenty of roleplayers (in my experience, the majority) who are "normal" people, actively social, and not particularly geeky - my own roleplaying circle features one geek (me), a philosopher, an architect, a sound engineer and a biologist.

    I really think that Katz is scraping the barrel with this article, which is a shame, because I normally find his stuff fairly thought-provoking.

    Alex

  • only reading an article by katz.... by rkanodia (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:26AM
  • He's a journalist who writes essays for slashdot by sips (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:40AM
  • Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar by baywulf (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @04:12PM
  • Technopoly by byterbit (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:22AM
  • Re:That is.. by AbbyNormal (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:48AM
  • That is.. by AbbyNormal (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:31AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by AbbyNormal (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:51AM
  • Jon Katz - The Lawnmower Man by 64.28.67.48 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:17AM
  • Is Katz Trolling? by humantraffic (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:35AM
  • by faldore (221970) on Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:50AM (#801050)
    Shadowrun would have been a much better rpg to pick for this article. It has megacorporations. It has the Matrix. It has magic and crime and big guns. It's also got a real easy system compared to AD&D. All based on D6. And they just came out with 3rd edition too. Play the game on Sega Genesis (or download the ROM) to get a taste of the Shadowrun universe.
  • Re:Is this a game I've never heard of? by kermit the fraud (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:08AM
  • Re:Yeah Right by kermit the fraud (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:15AM
  • Re:Is this a game I've never heard of? by kermit the fraud (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:27AM
  • Odd, but hey... by Verteiron (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:29AM
  • Re:It's SHADOWRUN, no er. by sistans (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @05:41PM
  • The fatal flaw... by Atreides_78723 (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:03AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by Kesper North (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @09:36AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by Kesper North (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @06:42AM
  • Coming to Terms with Katz by Yomach (Score:2) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:53AM
  • Re:Okay, Jon's finally lost it... by DentariZ (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @07:41AM
  • At least . . . by nowt (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @08:55AM
  • Mage Schmage by ktopian (Score:1) Wednesday September 06 2000, @11:38PM
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