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Are Videogames Art?

Posted by Cliff on Sun Nov 11, 2001 02:22 PM
from the questions-revisited-...-with-a-twist dept.
Angry Black Man asks: "The San Fransisco Museum of Modern Art is currently debating whether or not videogames can be considered a type of art. They are currently holding a symposium entitled "ArtCade: Exploring the Relationship Between Video Games and Art." What do you guys think about this? Also, if videogames are considered art than what stops other computer programs from also being considered art? Censoring videogames because of violence or even programs because of DMCA-type laws may be considered censoring art - something that many Americans have traditionally been very opposed to?" When Slashdot covered computer graphics as fine art, many of you agreed that it was. When asked about beautiful code, many thought so and gave their reasons as to why. Now comes a question about the combination of the two. Are computer games not considered art simply because of its nature as an entertainment medium, or can video games be considered art precisely because they can be thought of as combinations of graphics and code?

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[+] Games: Is nVidia Support for Older 3D Games Fading? 133 comments
BrendaEM writes "A thread on Through the Looking Glass depicts the plight of fans of the original Thief Series and System Shock 2, who are asking nVidia fix rendering issues these 3D 16-bit games on their newer video cards and drivers. In the case of the original Thief series, in which the games build tension by their use of light and shadow, the rendering has been badly degraded from that which was originally intended. In another Slashdot article, the author asked the question whether or not video games were art. If one of the greatest video games of all time, with a growing wealth of hundreds of fan produced missions, as well as an entire full-sized expansion, does not play well because legacy support diminishes, then what will happen to lesser 3D video games?"
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  • Yes by USS Enterprise (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:27PM
    • Re:Yes (not really) by dakoda (Score:3) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:05PM
      • Re:Yes (not really) (Score:4, Informative)

        by AndrewHowe (60826) on Sunday November 11 2001, @05:59PM (#2551946) Homepage
        Well I am glad that you mentioned you were "small time". As for your comment... It's so easy to throw around the "lazy" comment. It's so much harder to understand exactly how much work goes into making a good game. You will learn this as you progress in the industry.
        Good luck...
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Yes (not really) by Junks Jerzey (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @12:20PM
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  • Anything can be art... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Buran (150348) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:29PM (#2551321) Homepage
    ... if their creators believe that it is. Whether or not someone thinks my drawings are art, I think they are -- and that makes them art. They take skill to create, and I take joy in making them. That, I think, is art.
    • Re:Anything can be art... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Fly (18255) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:47PM (#2551398)
      I agree. I think that different types of video games would be considered art by various people. RPGs and some of the progression-scenario RTS games (e.g. Warcraft, Age Of Empires, and Rogue Spear) are similar to more traditional types of storytelling such as novels and movies.


      Other types of computer games, such as platform and first-person shooters might be considered art by a different group of people. I don't see quite as much of what I consider art in Quake III as I do in Baldur's Gate.


      Do we consider Magic (the card game) to be art? The cards certainly have as much artwork as many computer games. Do we consider baseball art? Why would a computer simulation of baseball be considered different from real-life baseball? Both are entertainment for sure, but are hitting and pitching Art any more than The Art of Computer Programming?


      Shoemaking is an art, though it's aesthetic is not the same as Impressionist painting, and thus I wouldn't put some Johnston & Murphy wingtips on display in the same place as a painting by Monet.


      I think the SFMoMA should consider them art since computer games do require some artistic aesthetic in order to be more appealing than their competitors in much the same way movies, paintings, novels, and sculptures do.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Anything can be art... (Score:5, Informative)

        by SuzanneA (526699) on Sunday November 11 2001, @03:19PM (#2551489)
        First, let me say that I'm a games developer, so perhaps I'm a little biased here..

        Now, the way I see it is this, SOME games are art, some are simply entertainment. Ok, 'thats obvious' you might be thinking, however, WHERE the line is may not be.

        The way I see it, a baseball/other-sport simulations is simply entertainment. It might have artistic elements (presentation issues usually), but overall it is entertainment.

        Games such as RPGs, RTS, etc are obviously art, since a storyline is often involved, and I'm pretty sure that most people will agree that story telling is an artform.

        As for games such as Quake, UT, etc. Yes, they are art, IMO, and heres why... These games are not based around existing concepts from real life, oh sure combat exists, but the environments, the character/monster design and other such issues all require a form of story telling. The story may not be a linear form of plotline, but there is still some story telling involved in designing 'scary monsters', or an alien landscape.

        These elements require someone to put thought into telling the story, whether its via a plotline, or through the environment and creatures inhabiting it.

        Anyway, thats the way I see things on this topic :)
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Anything can be art... by mattbelcher (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:25PM
        • Re:Anything can be art... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by nehril (115874) on Sunday November 11 2001, @06:37PM (#2552032)
          indeed. Are movies art? are photographs art? Well, it's too broad a question. Films, photography, and videogames are a *medium*, and as such they can be many different things. "movies" and "photographs" encompass things like documentaries, security camera videos, medical images, astronomical images, etc. Whether any particular product is "art" depends on what you define art to be.

          In the same vein, it's ridiculous to ask whether "video games" are art. Video games can be anything from educational, to part of scientific experiments, to, well, anything.

          The field of photography initially went through a stage where people doubted and debated whether photographs were art or mere transcription. As the field evolved the question became more refined: is *this particular* photograph art? That the technology of photography can produce art is no longer in question. Digital Interactive Entertainment or Video Games or whatever you want to call it will eventually go through the same cycle and come to the same conclusion.

          Is Final Fantasy VII "art"? Is Mavis Beacon Typing Teacher? Is this even a valid comparison?
          [ Parent ]
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        • Re:Anything can be art... by hugg (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @11:52PM
        • Re:Anything can be art... by onion2k (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @07:51AM
        • Re:Anything can be art... by cpart (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @09:43AM
      • Re:Anything can be art... by BrynM (Score:3) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:44PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by het3 (68871) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:53PM (#2551420) Homepage
      I would say that anything can be Art if the *audience* thinks it's Art. Just as you can think you're funny, you might not be. Your audience gets to say if you're funny or not.

      Anything is Art if it produces an aesthetic reaction in the viewer. Intent on the part of the artist can't be part of the definition: it would exclude much that is in fact Art, and include much that isn't, so it's a bad cut to make with your logical scalpel.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Anything can be art... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by karnal (22275) on Sunday November 11 2001, @04:36PM (#2551707) Homepage
        But even if the "audience" doesn't think it is art, it could be to me. I could put together 21 tracks of the most disgusting music man has ever heard on a cd, and have people listen to it. It is art to me. What you're referencing is someone's opinion.

        I may hate your paintings, but it's still art to you. Big difference.
        [ Parent ]
      • NO NO NO ! by thopo (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:42PM
        • Re:NO NO NO ! by Moofie (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:37PM
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    • Re:Anything can be art... by cronot (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:54PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by Alorelith (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:15PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by GuidoDEV (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:41PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by gr3g (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:50PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by MikeFM (Score:3) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:53PM
    • Penny Arcade agrees (check this comic) by Spiff28 (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:16PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by bigfatlamer (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @10:48PM
    • Re:Anything can be art... by gargle (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @08:26AM
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  • Sure by Foxxz (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:29PM
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  • Movie analogy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by keath_milligan (521186) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:29PM (#2551324) Homepage

    Video games are as much art as movies are. In fact, one of my hopes for the gaming industry is to see it mature - at least in some ways - into something similar to the movie industry, where there is room not only for the heavily-produced blockbusters, but also for more artisticly-inclined "indy" titles.

    • Re:Movie analogy by grazzy (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:50PM
    • Re:Movie analogy by ChazeFroy (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:20PM
    • Not just that... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Chasing Amy (450778) <asdfijoaisdf@askdfjpasodf.com> on Sunday November 11 2001, @04:31PM (#2551693) Homepage
      Video games are also art in other, more subtle ways. Just as artists celebrated "pop art" by enshrining elements from everyday life in their works--such as the famous painting of Campbell's Soup cans, or the countless works which used the pixellated dots of the print medium--so are videogames a celebration of their times and the aesthetics of the time.

      Take the vector graphics of many early arcade games--they reflect their times, and have their counterparts in films of the day such as *WarGames* where the computer Joshua plays through scenarios on giant vector screens at Norad; they are an enashrinement of the technology of the period, and embody it. Take the vector game Star Wars, and show it beside clips of the same actions that occur in the Star Wars movie, and you have a pop art statement as interesting as any made by the great pop artists.

      How about Dragon's Lair as an attempt to express something in a medium that wasn't entirely adequate, resulting in a quirky experience that transcends the limits of the medium even for its shortcomings?

      The very design of arcade game machines and game consoles is art, much as authentic furniture from the fifties and sixties is prized today for its aesthetic qualities. Such furniture was designed to be entirely functional, not as art--yet it embodies a style and spirit which is today viewed as a certain artistic style, just as the art nouveau reflected in turn-of-the-century Continental signs and gates and baubles, or the art deco reflected in common household decorations of the twenties and early thirties.

      The same sort of art can be seen in these functional bits. Look at the extreme angles in a Defender cab, the sweeping design of a Star Wars cockpit--as worthy of being called art as any art deco figurine. Or, how about setting up an exhibit to contrast the design of home consoles, from the 70s inlaid fake woodgrain and brushed metal of an Atari 2600 to the functional boxiness of a NES to the sleek black of a Genesis to the colorful GameCube.

      The games themselves can be displayed in a similar manner, with demos running to show the simplicity of Pong's attempt to represent tennis in a 2d world on through Star Wars' attempt to represent the cutting-edge 3d technology of the film through simple vector displays on to the ever more complex and imaginative titles which left simply trying to recreate reality in the 80s and went on to create whole new worlds and fantasies--the Mario of Donkey Kong and Super Mario Brothers as a simplified representation of the hero saving the princess; Pac Man best expressed by the hunger which his Japanese creator in interviews says is the driving (pizza-inspired) idea behind him; Doom's attempt to put the player in a post-apocalyptic world as the protagonist, whereas films have always kept the viewer as a third party to the action; Quake 3 or UT's realism, while portraying the same post-apocalyptic sort of dystopia; the dizzying multi-axis world of the Descent games; Tomb Raider's attempt to make everyone an Indiana Jones; House of the Dead, in the words of the judge who recently struck down a local ban on violent arcade games, who noted it has creativity and even instills a positive message of protecting the innocent by attacking the evil; Duke Nukem and his countless fan levels as the epitome of masculine stereotypes; Discworld the videogames as concrete visual implementations of the world created by the Discworld novels; etc. etc.

      To distill my longwinded claptrap: yes, videogames are obviously art.
      [ Parent ]
  • An expression of thy self by rockwood (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:30PM
  • Are video games art? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:31PM
  • by IdocsMiko (534405) <idocsmiko @ i docs.com> on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:31PM (#2551332) Homepage
    Of course video games are art! Designing a video game is designing an experience for an audience. You balance a variety of elements such as sound, color, pace, all of which come together to form a unique whole. Different people have different tastes and will come away from the art piece with different impressions.

    Art forms like video games tend to get mired in these sort of debates because they lack snob appeal. People figure that if it doesn't need an endowment, it's not art. People don't sit in high-rent apartments in an artsy-fartsy section of town in fancy clothes sipping spritzers and discussing the finer points of Q3, so it must not be art.

    Science fiction has gotten mired down in this debate, as has commerical art of all forms, as did theater at one time. Good grief.

  • Entertainment is art. by amaprotu (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:31PM
  • Art or craft? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Webmonger (24302) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:32PM (#2551337) Homepage
    To me, it seems that computer graphics can definitely be art. But programming is more of a craft. It's about making something well. And just like a well-executed piece of furniture, a program's internal beauty is irrelevant to the users-- it's how it looks and how it works that matters to the people who use it.

    Sure, computer games contain art. Their music and images often have artistic worth. But we want computer games that are well designed and skillfully executed, not artistic statements.

    I'm a programmer, and I've got a lot of respect for the creativity and hard work that goes into computer games. But I see them as a craft, not an art.

    Anyone know why this is a story instead of a poll?
    • Re:Art or craft? by AstroJetson (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:47PM
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    • Re:Art or craft? by SuzanneA (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:32PM
    • Nonsense... by RyanFenton (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:34PM
    • Re:Art or craft? by 037 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:39PM
    • The Difference Between Art and Craft (Score:4, Insightful)

      by UberQwerty (86791) on Sunday November 11 2001, @03:52PM (#2551596) Homepage Journal
      The difference between art and craft, as defined by my college English department, is as follows:

      -Art forges new ground and manifests new ideas
      Pros: Can be the most interesting creations
      Cons: Often misunderstood, too strange, or
      just meaningless

      -Craft repeats what has been done before in new combinations and perhaps with a new twist
      Pros: Gauranteed to be decent; based on a
      previous success
      Cons: Gauranteed not to raise eyebrows; based
      on a previous success

      Obviously this is not a clear-cut distinction - one could easily find border cases in any medium which is somehow considered art. However, it seems obvious that craft cannot exist without art of some degree; in order to copy an idea, the idea must have been created new by someone once.

      We can easily find computer and video games that seem to fall well into either catagory. Art would be a game that broke new ground and was unlike anything that came before it, like Wolfenstein 3D, or Lemmings. Craft would be a game that did what has been done before, with little creativity (Spear of Destiny, or an add-on of new Lemmings levels) or a lot (Half-Life). Once again, it's easy to find border cases, like each new iteration of the ID 3D engine, which were full of new ideas but based on the same old one.

      We can see, though, that even if most or almost all computer games fall into the Craft category, and even if some are border cases (they eventually fall into one of the two categories), that the medium as a whole is an artistic one. Craft is simply a word that means uncreative art. Just because it lacks snob appeal doesn't mean it isn't aesthetically pleasing.

      Since all computer and video games have no purpose other than to entertain, the medium must be considered an artistic one. Craft does not exist in a medium without the potential for art. The quality of the art, and whether or not it is ideal enough to escape the title "craft," does not, even in the cruelest cynic's video-game-hating eyes allow its dismissal as anything less than poor art. We may notice that the assertion that the art is poor is a qualitative statement, which is in the eye of the beholder, but that the asswertion that it is art at all is a quantitative one and bears no argument. Cogito ergo sum - if someone thinks it's art, the harshest blow one can deal it is say it isn't very good.
      [ Parent ]
    • Real artists were tradesmen by xixax (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:51PM
    • Re:Art or craft? by uebernewby (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:29PM
    • Re:Art or craft? by The Milky Bar Kid (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:57PM
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  • Video Games Are Art (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Jucius Maximus (229128) <e7cme1p02@@@sneakemail...com> on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:34PM (#2551342) Homepage Journal
    It takes both talent and skill to create the very best of works of graphic art. Such pieces inspire emotion and awe.

    The same is true with video games. System Shock 2 *IS* scary and only a skilled team of artists could craft such a thing. Does anyone remember playing DOOM at night and being in an area with strobe lights, those invisible demons growling and the like? Did that stir any emotions in you? Probably yes. Such a feat is a work of art.

    Creating such things is an artform that is developed and perfected by people who like to do it.

  • Are boardgames pieces of art? by CapTVK (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:34PM
  • You bet! by wrinkledshirt (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:34PM
  • Art as entertainment by Artana Niveus Corvum (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:34PM
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  • Maybe not right now... by xxxtac2 (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:34PM
  • Are movies art? (Score:3, Funny)

    by ChristianBaekkelund (99069) <{ude.tim} {ta} {ocard}> on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:35PM (#2551349) Homepage
    I mean seriously, did you SEE the Pauly Shore movies?

    IMHO, there's art and there's entertainment...and both movies and videogames can fall into either category...

    My $5.95.
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  • Of course their art by damieng (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:36PM
  • TV, Movies by MrResistor (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:36PM
  • Not yet by gmarceau (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:37PM
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  • I'd say not really, because by GISboy (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:37PM
  • I hate questions like this... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by melatonin (443194) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:38PM (#2551360)
    they just mean that someone somewhere is ignorant and/or snobby.

    If I throw a urinal into a museum, or yell "DADA!" out in the streets, everyone agrees that it's art (because it's been established as so).

    But if I band together some talented artists, animators, and ingenious programmers, and create something truly remarkable like Deus Ex or Halo, people question it.

    Such things (vidgames) would not exist without human creativity. They're physical manifestation of human creativity. If that's not art, what is?

  • my take by yawnmoth (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:38PM
  • Why? by t_allardyce (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:39PM
  • by Ephemeriis (315124) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:39PM (#2551364) Homepage
    Personally, I've always thought of computer games as art, no matter what the "officials" may say. The defining factor, I think, is the fact that it has a story. A computer game tells a story with a protagonist, an antagonist, a setting, theme, plot, climax...everything you need for a decent novel. Sure, many computer games are very shallow, which would make them bad art...but still art.

    As for programming in general...it depends. It can be art, or not. Generic programming is much like technical writing. It is utilitarian, not artistic. It is a task assigned to someone, that any old monkey could do - not an artistic expression of one person's vision. However, this is not always true. Just as there are generic chairs that sell for $10.99 at K-Mart and then bizzarre sculptures of chair-like things on display at galleries, there can also be artistic programs. Someone can write artistic code...but code doesn't have to be artistic.

    I think it's just a little early yet for most of the world to accept code as art. I'm sure it took a while for people to recognize the artistry that can go into photography as well.

    yrs,
    Ephemeriis
  • Yes'm by l33tsp34ker (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:39PM
  • Art, Schmart (Score:5, Insightful)

    by timothy (36799) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM (#2551369) Homepage Journal
    Why do people agonize about whether particular things can be "considered" art?

    If you consider something to be art, who the heck is going to stop you? Other people might disagree (hey, my thoughts on art may vary from yours -- so what?) but that's about the extent of it.

    Now given that, I don't particularly agree that video games are art, *unless that's what the creator intended*, in which case I have no objection -- then it's art. IMO (which one one else has to buy), Art is *intentional* - accidental doodles, sunsets, plants, shadows, streams or functional objects might be artful, or beautiful, or even artistic, but things get too floppy for me if anything that happens to look nice, or that makes you think, is automatically "art." Not everything sculptural (Zhang Ziyi, for instance, or a Nagra tape recorder) is actually sculpture.

    Having groused that practical objects which happen to be pretty aren't, I would say that the other direction is not quite the same, though. An artwork could have a hands-on function which rendered it a useful object ... again, a matter of intention. If I make an object with a long metal prong flattened into a small, blunted, flat-edge blade that happens to fit into the slot at the end of a woodscrew, and declare that the primary purpose and my artistic intent is for it to be manipulated by human hands to express the beauty of simple machines by inserting or removing screws from objects, Fine -- it's art that happens to serve as a screwdriver. That doesn't make every screwdriver art.

    Maybe this helps to explain why I think the money given to the NEA would be much better given to model rocket clubs around the country, or never taken from taxpayers in the first place.

    timothy
  • Let's see... by Wire Tap (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • Most *definitely* by trilucid (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • All games are art by Spezzer (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • Yes, but there's more... by Naerbnic (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • Art... by powerlinekid (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:41PM
  • Definining Art by rbeattie (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:42PM
  • Think about it by Jucius Maximus (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:43PM
  • Civilization 3 by Apreche (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:44PM
    • Re:Civilization 3 by jacoplane (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:39PM
      • New genres by Broccolist (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:33PM
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  • Absolutely. by cascino (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:46PM
  • Ask a silly question... by Nindalf (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:49PM
  • wrong question by Aardappel (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:51PM
  • Musings (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Murdock037 (469526) <tristranthorn@ho ... Ecom minus berry> on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:53PM (#2551419)
    Forgive me if this doesn't seem to have much direction, but this is something I've thought a bit about. I'm a student at a private fine arts college, and I'm one of the few there with interests in video games, programming, etc.

    Scott McCloud of "Understanding Comics" fame once wrote that art is anything not springing directly from man's need to survive or procreate. In that sense, well, playing video games could be considered an art, but making them stems from a creator's need to earn money, so he can eat, so he can survive-- not art. But there are other, easier ways to make money; the video game creator chooses to make games because he or she is good at it and (hopefully) has an interest in the field. He or she puts personal touches into their work and it's different from what anybody else could do-- art.

    It's a tough call, this. Because since Marcel Duchamp put a bicycle wheel upside down on a pedestal almost a hundred years ago and declared that it was art because he said it was, a sort of Pandora's Box has been open: we've got the most liberated sense of art there ever has been (an artist can do anything he wants and try to sell it, really) but we've also got cretins that feel art is simplistic and easy, because they don't understand the thought behind found objects or abstract expressionism or anything else to come along in the twentieth century.

    I tried telling a friend while we were in a Renaissance history class about how it seemed to me that the development of 3D engines like Carmack's Quake and Sweeney's Unreal had some interesting parallels to the development of rendering techniques in Italian painting of the 15th century onward. The Italian painters started off with flat images, little depth, and distance was conveyed by placing objects higher on a picture plane-- it was the Wolfenstein era, you could say. But then artists like Giotto (if memory serves) came along, and started figuring out better ways to shade, to manipulate color, and to make objects seem rounded-- to actually occupy a space. The Renaissance of painting started, and it was like the first Quake. And so on and so forth.

    Where are we now? Well, the technical craft has all but been mastered in video games; it's not photoreal, so games are somewhere around the middle-18th century, I'd wager. I can't wait until the technical aspect becomes so perfected that it becomes boring to the artists making video games; then the modernist era of videogames begins, and we can see just what kind of creativity these guys really have.

    (A note on the above: I'm no expert in the history of painting or the history of games, so the paragraphs above are mostly meant to illustrate the similarities in the goals of the painters and the programmers. Anybody's free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

    But then there's the commercial aspects of the video game industry. A lot of games are made for money. It's much like the film industry, I think, where you've got some works that are obviously done to make a buck (the latest Schwarzenegger flick) and then some that are done for the passion of the craft (Wes Anderson, Darren Aronofsky, to name a few of the better of the younger generation, and so on). But it'd be impossible to say that there is no art in the film industry, just because it's driven by money. It applies the same way to video games: Miyamoto's "Pikmin" is art, the new "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" probably is not.

    So where am I ending up with all of this? I don't know, I suppose it's all just food for thought. My personal feeling is that video games certainly are art, and it's nothing but snobbery from the elitist old guard that says they're not. You've gotta get with the times.

    Code is the paint. Video games are the art.
    • Marcel Duchamp by scorcherer (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:31PM
    • Re:Musings by ebyrob (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:27PM
    • Re:Musings by Bongo (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @06:13AM
    • Re:Musings by Lemmy Caution (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @06:58PM
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  • Art vs Craft by Slurm-V (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:55PM
  • Considering the things that *are* consider art... by DahGhostfacedFiddlah (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:55PM
  • The greatest art form of art yet. by supabeast! (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:56PM
  • I am bored to tears with modern games, am I old? by mnf999 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:59PM
  • The Art of making Computer Games is a bit dead.... by Quazion (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:01PM
  • obviously, by cosmo7 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:05PM
  • Of course they're art... by InferiorFloater (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:08PM
  • Comparison to Cinema by blueskatz (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:10PM
  • Depends on the game. by Maul (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:15PM
  • Old Farts by t0qer (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:17PM
  • Only have to say one thing... by mfos.org (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:18PM
  • As a games programmer myself... by MaestroSartori (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:19PM
  • by mcarbone (78119) on Sunday November 11 2001, @03:19PM (#2551490) Homepage
    Any time a new art form comes along it takes awhile for the public to accept it as legitimate. Take film for example. In the first 30 years of the century, film was a medium for popular entertainment mostly but had yet been embraced by the intelligentsia. The medium was mostly used for entertainment, but here and there were glimpses of art or social messages or what have you.

    When Citizen Kane came along, here was a movie that used all of the unique elements that make up film for artistic purposes. It was groundbreaking in that the lighting, photography, music, camera angles, editing and so on all came together to form this wonderful work of art.

    I don't think videogames have come this far yet. Now, there are many games that give us glimpses of art and beauty (Zelda games, SNES Final Fantasy games, a glimmer in Black and White, etc.) but no one has yet made the Citizen Kane.

    And why not? Well, in the film industry, it took the genius of one man (Orson Welles) and the amazing backing of a studio system (which later destroyed Welles). But the videogame industry is so much harder to work with when art is concerned. Not only are videogames really expensive, but they are looked down upon by those people who could afford to fund game art. The problem here is that a game has to be aesthetically pleasing and interactive, which, if you think about it, is really hard to do. Most people just want to run around and shoot people in realistic environments.

    So I put out a challenge to all of you videogame makers out there: try to make the Citizen Kane of video games - it doesn't have to be popular among teens or particularly well-liked by the public, it just has to be good. I've tried thinking of ideas myself, but I've failed so I leave it to the geniuses that I know are out there but who probably don't have financial backing. If you are someone like this, I wish you the best of luck!
  • Maybe some games by Jormundgard (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:19PM
  • Are computer games art? .. well by ixo111 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:20PM
  • Linus apparently thinks it... by powerlinekid (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:21PM
  • 2 Games to consider - ICO and Planescape: Torment. by RyanFenton (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:23PM
  • Movies? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:25PM
  • Art vs. Product by Space Coyote (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:27PM
  • Sports and Amusement Parks by Vegan Pagan (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:30PM
  • Ice Hockey for 8-bit Nintendo: That shit is art. by joshjs (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:32PM
  • You should see what passes for art there by blackwizard (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:33PM
  • Look at the credits by ryants (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:33PM
  • Definitely art by inepom01 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:33PM
  • Escaping the Tomb by Crepusculum (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:35PM
    • Re:Escaping the Tomb (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Crepusculum (135302) on Sunday November 11 2001, @03:44PM (#2551579)
      Hah, well I guess this is going to get buried, I'll just paste the article in here and see if anyone notices it that way:

      "Escaping the 'Tomb'"

      Breasts. How could they turn on me like this? After all the times we've shared? Breasts are standing in the way of something important; something more important to me, a 21 year old man, than sex. Breasts are retarding the actualization of the first emerging art form of the 21st century. Upon telling the proverbial Man on the Street you're studying to enter the field of video game design you will receive one of two reactions. Anyone over the age of thirty will say "Oh, that's nice" accompanied by a condescending, vacant stare. The reaction elicited from my younger peers: an exclamatory "awesome!" and the pantomimed fondling of oversized, imaginary breasts. Having already decided to devote my life to the creation of games, these reactions can only depress and infuriate. They can only be construed as a direct result of the popularity of games like the odious Tomb Raider. The problem is clear, but what it not clear is whether gaming can ever escape this "Tomb" of juvenility and negative perception. At their heart games are an art form as viable as motion pictures or photography and are destined to be recognized as so in the near future. This form, interactive video art, will be increasingly accepted as the technology that comprises it stabilizes and as the current base of enthusiastic reviewers convert to game criticism, thereby propagating academic awards for excellence in games. It is the defining cultural phenomenon of this generation. It cannot and will not be denied its artistic merit.

      In order to address games as art, we must first fashion a working definition for art. Foremost amongst artistic considerations should be aesthetics. As Berys Gaut eloquently states in Theories of Art Today, good art "possesses positive aesthetic properties such as being beautiful, graceful, or elegant (properties which ground a capacity to give sensuous pleasure"(28). In addition, good art presents a statement, imbued with the unique perspective of its creator and was intended as a piece of art. It is able to make a statement about life, society, or even about itself. It pushes the boundaries of its medium and challenges people to think about themselves and the way they relate to the world (it is edifying both generally and personally). Finally and foremost in determining games' artistic viability, good art is a compelling experience, one that can be shared and intellectualized. I've devoted myself to games because I have found their experience more compelling than any other media.

      A general definition hammered out, we must now make delineation between literary, narrative-based arts and other forms of art. Games, in the form they now exist, are narrative art. In a piece of narrative art "the object is not the work. The strip of celluloid itself is not the work, any more than the paper and ink of a book is the work. With a game, the CD is not the work."(Adams) The experience is the work. As a generalization, it can then be inferred that, in narrative art, the artistic strength of the work lies in how compelling the storyline and characters are. Another important factor that must be addressed is the fact that narrative arts by definition rely on their medium's stability. Indeed, literary art forms as a whole are lacking one characteristic from our list: the pushing of their medium's boundaries. This does not, however, preclude their artistic viability. The point is that a finite degree of stability must exist in a narrative-based medium in order to maintain suspension of disbelief (how compelling the experience is). This presents a problem for games' advancement as a viable medium. Unfairly, this problem is not based on evaluation of artistic qualities, but rather on the unfamiliarity and instability of delivery platform. In this respect, the only thing holding games out of artistic actualization is a swath of negative perception, both public and academic.

      The largest contributing factor in this negative perception of games is technology. The technology that powers games is unstable. According to Dr. Gordon Moore, co-founder and CEO of Intel Corp., "Integration complexity doubles every three years"(4). This is known and accepted throughout the computer industry as 'Moore's Law'. Distilled, this means that central processors, essentially the brain of any computer, double in power every 18 months. To a game designer this lack of standardized delivery makes it extremely difficult to create an experience that is identical for each who partake in it (the afore-mentioned stability so vital to narrative art). This, in turn, makes it extremely difficult to accurately identify and evaluate the aesthetic (artistic) properties of a game.

      An example: in a film the amount of frames projected on the screen per second remains a constant 30 frames per second (fps). In a game, however, fps is constantly vacillating. In a real-time environment the current position of everything that exists within must be constantly recalculated. The efficiency of this process relies on the speed of the computer on which it's being run, which is primarily limited by the computer's central processor. Taking into account the fact that only a very small percentage of people can afford to upgrade their systems every 18 months, developers are left aiming their games at a broad range of systems, effectively preventing control of how the final piece is viewed. At this point, then, the aesthetics of their work effectively leaves their control. There is, however, an end in sight.

      Moore himself, in a 1996 update to the original speech which spawned 'Moore's Law', predicts that the physical limits of silicon will only allow this phenomenon to continue for another two decades. This being said, it is clear that technological stability is close at hand. Without dismissing the possibility and drive to have their artistic viability cemented now, it can be stated with certainty that when the platform for delivery stabilizes into something that is consistent and can be experienced identically by anyone, the technology will be in place to enable games to be recognized as an art form.

      Having mentioned the fact that narrative arts like film rely on stability of medium and subsequently addressing games' current lack of stability it is important to address this stability in the medium of film.

      It is undisputed that "the motion pictures did not originate as an art but as machine."(Fulton 3) What is not clear, however, how this metamorphosis (from novelty to art form) occurred. It is clear, however, that this change depended principally on standardized delivery.

      Thomas Edison patented the first motion picture camera in 1893. Most of the earliest moving images were non-fictional, crude, and unedited: documentary views of ordinary slices of life (street scenes, the activities of police or firemen, or shots of a passing train). In the mid 1890s the Edison Company introduced the Kinetoscope. The Kinetoscope was a bulky, coin-operated movie peep show viewer for a single customer. Early spectators in Kinetoscope parlors were amazed by even the most mundane moving images: an approaching train or parade, women dancing, dogs terrorizing rats. This initial phenomenon quickly lost its appeal with the advent of the projector as film's primary form of delivery. People began to demand not simply a novelty but entertainment. In just a few years, one could spend an evening at the cinema for a nickel.

      The first nickelodeon, a small storefront theater, opened in 1905 and became the first permanent movie theatre. A short, silent film was usually accompanied with piano playing, songs, lectures, or vaudeville-type acts. Early nickelodeon films such as The Great Train Robbery attempted to gain artistic credit both by coupling themselves with stage acts and by emulating the expressive techniques of stage acting (techniques like pantomime). The working class quickly embraced the nickelodeon as an alternative to the cost-prohibitive theater. This gave film its initial audience, one which did little to lend credibility to public perception film's artistic aspects. Spurred by racist sentiment, anti-immigrant prejudice, and social discrimination, newspaper critics soon denounced movies as "morally objectionable and "the cause of social unrest". They called for censorship.

      Games began life in much the same way, as a technological novelty, crude and unexpressive. Early games were almost totally non-graphical, non-representational. Primitive, triangular groupings of pixels were spaceships, heros, and aliens. Like the kinetoscope, the novelty initially precluded the content. People marveled simply at being able to control what was happening on the screen, in any form. In the same way film found its first audience in the poor immigrant workers, games moved into acceptance as a subcultural phenomenon with the advent of arcades, which contained games like Pong and Space Invaders. In much the same idium as film, this subculture has been attacked by the media and denigrated to by the general public. Even now games are being blamed for current trends of social violence. These are the growing pains of an emerging art form.

      Film's growing pains ended in 1915 with the release of Birth of a Nation. While Birth of a Nation certainly had its share of artistic merit, the one thing that truly allowed it to be a pioneering critical and artistic success was technology.

      "Technically, the film was a brilliant and stunning new cinematic work - a screen masterpiece which advanced the art of film-making to new heights, with beautifully-structured battle scenes, costuming, and compelling, revolutionary story-telling, editing and photographic techniques (dollying, masking, use of irises, flashbacks, cross-cuts and fades)."(Dirks 2)

      While these advances in methodology were extremely important to the growth of film itself as a medium, Birth of a Nation could never have been successful if it had not been for the nickelodeons paving the way and establishing how a film was supposed to be viewed. Once this was established, once people accepted and understood that going to a film meant suspending disbelief, films were free to deliver their messages. Once this freedom was attained, it was only a matter of time before someone like D.W. Griffith, someone with a compelling experience to share, got behind the reins. Albiet, Griffith compelled people to see the KKK as heros, but that was irrelevant in terms of film's growth. Film as art arrived with standardized delivery.

      The experience of watching a film has remained stable for almost fifty years. You go to a theater, sit in the dark facing a giant projection screen for two hours and experience whatever the film-makers intended you to experience. It's relevant to ask the question: Would you be able to have the same experience if, for some reason, the projector was focused on the ceiling of the theater? For a majority of people the answer is no, simply because they'd not be willing to make that adjustment.

      Another important point to note about film, one which lends additional credibility to games as an art form, is the fact that though film is an art form, not all films are art. Today, games are not considered an art form, though some games are art. Film today is accepted as an art form, removing from consideration those films obviously making no attempt at artistic viability. Films are visually and aurally elegant, contain the unique perspectives of its creators, and often make statements about society or life. They are often intended to provoke thought or educate on a particular subject, and are an experience that can be shared and intellectualized. Most importantly, films provide a compelling experience. They arrived at this point through a painful, iterative process in which all that was weak in their medium was weeded out, each generation building on its predecessor's strengths.

      The reason people are so willing to suspend disbelief for a film is not because it is a more powerful form of expression than a game, it's simply because of precedent. At its inception photography suffered the same lack of precedent. The first successful photograph was produced by a Frenchman named Niépce in July of 1827 using material that hardened when exposed to light. In 1829 Niépce entered into a partnership with Louis Daguerre, who then discovered a way of developing photographic plates, reducing the exposure time from eight hours down to half an hour. This was followed by the discovery that an image could be made permanent by immersing it in salt. In 1844, his process refined and simplified, Daguerre sold his invention to the French government, naming it the Daguerreotype. What ensued could only be described as a fad, popular culture, nothing more. Daguerreotype madness gripped France. Everyone was amazed at the simplicity of creating an image without the knowledge or skill of drawing. Photography retained this stigma of fad until the late 19th to early 20th century, fifty years later.

      The Pictorialist movement, considered the first artistic movement of photography, did for photography what Birth of a Nation did for film. By emulating existing works of art, specifically romantic and realist paintings, works like Alfred Stieglitz' Mountain and Sky bridged the gap between photography and representational painting. By emulating established works of art, the Pictorialists grounded their work in established aesthetics. Considerations like composition, framing, and use of light came into play. The point was to establish that photography can and does possesses all the necessary components to be considered art. It is beautiful and elegant in the same way that representational painting is. It is literally the view of its creator, since a photograph is essentially what the artist was seeing the moment he took it. Also, as in painting, statements are easily made by photographs simply through choice of subject matter. Finally, photographs can be intellectualized, the experience of viewing them shared. That photography possessed these qualities was not asserted for many years. In fact, photography initially met with violent opposition.

      Before the middle of the 19th century, art was representational, attempting to recreate the human figure and natural scenes perfectly and accurately. When photography was invented it was considered something of a fraud by established painters and was nearly squelched out of existence. Existing artists were afraid that it would impinge on their livelihood. There was heated debate and vocal artistic outcry that lasted decades. In the end, however, it was conceded that photography possessed the necessary characteristics to assert its claim as an art form. In fact, photography benefited art greatly by freeing it to no longer be purely representational. Unshackled by this historical crux, art was liberated to advance as a medium into realms like Dada and abstract expressionism.

      Like games, both photography and film possessed undeniable artistic qualities that, at first, lacked clear definition. Through social perseverance and through the essential and intrinsic strengths of their mediums, photography and film were actualized as true forms of art. One thing that precluded these assertions, however, was the establishment of functioning critical base for both media.

      In professional criticism lies the largest influence over public perception. Criticism stems from the need to intellectualize and qualify comparative experience. This need allows critics, effectively and comparatively a very small group of people, to sway the entire public opinion.

      When a medium develops what is essentially a subculture of people whose entire purpose is to evaluate pieces of that medium based on a certain criteria, whatever that criteria might be, it lends an artistic viability to that medium that no single artist can hope to achieve. The other function professional criticism serves is to educate. People read criticism because they themselves have only a finite amount of time to devote to leisure activities. Reading critical analysis by people whose entire job is to evaluate pieces allows the public a way to presort their choices, hopefully in order to allow them not to waste their precious time. Therefore they rely on critics to be intelligent, well informed, and to have an excellent grasp on the established language of criticism. A change must be made, then, from today's insubstantial game reviewer

      The enormous volume of gaming review websites and publications must make the subtle but vital change from strict review to actual criticism. A game critic must be lucid, well informed, and intelligent. He must evaluate games with respect not only to other games, but with respect to film, literature, and other arts. He must to evaluate games with respect to games as a medium and to how well the game manipulates or uses the medium. Finally, a game critic must adhere to criteria of evaluation more or less agreed on by his peers. There is very little, if any, criticism in the gaming world. There is review. It is extremely important to make this distinction. There is a voluminous cornucopia of publications, on and offline, which deal with game review. People play games then they say whether or not they liked them and why. The problem inherent here is that these reviewers think only in the context of other games, and lack the abstraction necessary to form real, concrete criteria for judging a medium. Observe:

      "So upon opening up the thing, we found a nifty Max Payne mousepad and a DVD case (similiar to PS2 game cases) holding the actual game. Weird...yes, but hell, i'm a fan of boxes so it certainly suffices. Now one problem i did have from the start is that in the instruction booklet, Max Payne claims to be the first game ever to feature slo-mo effects in a game. Now, Hitman Codename 47 wasn't shipped with the slo-mo option, but days after its release, there was a patch that featured it for those 'matrix' type bullet exchanges. So, i've got to say, Hitman has stolen some of Max Payne's thunder in a lot of respects. Nit picks aside, i can honestly say that while not being a perfect game and even missing features that Hitman had (not including slo-mo) Max Payne looks like it will be up there as one of the best action games of all time. Now although we haven't played enough for a review yet, i'm not going to claim that it IS the best action game of all time...but...sometimes first impressions last. We'll see." (Tillesburg)
      This is a typical online review for a recently released game called Max Payne. The first thing that should become obvious is the almost nonsensically blasé style of writing. The juvenility of the colloquialisms used is overshadowed only by the heinous grammatical and spelling errors. It's apparent that the writer made no attempt to present information in a reasonable, educated manner. Another factor miring publications of this type is the afore-mentioned context. To truly provide criticism, one must review a piece in terms of both its peers (of the same medium) and of other media. There is very little attempt to evaluate the aesthetic qualities of the game, at least no intelligible one. The author is obviously not interested in any thought the creators of Max Payne intended to provoke in him. In addition, it should be taken into consideration what the creator of the piece intended to say about society, life, and the world with his or her piece. Anyone reading this review would be forced to think that it was, in fact, impossible to make intelligent criticisms about Max Payne because there was inherently nothing intelligent about it. This is untrue and is both a disservice and a discredit to the creators of the game.

      Max Payne is game noir, elegant and sophisticated. From a narrative standpoint, Payne is modeled after Shakespeare's epic tragedy MacBeth. As MacBeth opens three witches set the scene, a horrendous storm "In thunder, lightening, or in rain..."(Shakespeare) and in their rhetoric bring out the theme that will shape the play "Fair is foul, foul is fair: Hover through the fog an filthy air". Instantly, the witches fade, to the middle of a battle, a characteristic opening for a Shakespearian tragedy: starting in the midst of the action. As Max Payne begins the stage is set: New York during the worst blizzard of the century, the game's theme stated from beginning just as in MacBeth. "They were all dead. The final gunshot was an exclamation to everything that had led to this point. I released my finger from the trigger, and it was over". (Max Payne) Max's voice over takes the place of the three witches, preparing the story's unraveling. Instantly you are dropped into game play, effectively living a flashback; you battle helplessly on your bedroom door as your wife and child are murdered in the next room. By emulating an established work of art in the same way the Pictorialist movement emulated classical paintings, Max Payne asserts itself as a piece of art.

      That being said, Shakespeare Max Payne is not. However, its story certainly leaves 'Large Breasted Woman with big Guns Raids Ancient Treasure' hanging its head in shame. The more compelling the narrative the better the art. Max Payne is compelling, if not great, narrative.

      From an aesthetic standpoint, Max Payne excels. Its artists have created the best faux realistic environment yet created in a game, using detailed photographs to cover the geometry that comprises their 3d world instead of hand-painted textures (the normal approach). By pushing the boundaries of the medium in this way the creators of Max Payne have not only created a compelling piece, they have advanced both games' credibility and their own. The result is a very believable, wholly engrossing, visually pleasing, compelling experience. In its cinematic passages the game displays the creators' nuanced understanding of cinematographic principals such as shot continuity and framing as well as the excellent consideration given to light placement.

      In terms of interactive video art, Max Payne breaks new ground and makes excellent use of the medium. The most obviously interesting manipulation of medium is the use of "bullet time" as a gameplay modifier. It's been taken for granted that all games are either real-time or turn-based. Max Payne plays with the notion that a game must be one or the other by enabling the player to go into a slow motion mode at his discretion. This adds a new feel of control and depth to a tried and true gameplay mechanic, leaving a fresh new way of experiencing action. Granted, in this case the concept is used only to enhance the player's ability to dish out violence, but the addition of the concept of time manipulation is one that advances the medium and pushes it to new heights.

      In addition to this advancement, the game is aware of its status as a game and plays with that fact. In one particularly poignant passage, Max is rendered unconscious and drugged. When he comes to, the game has taken on a green haze, the aperture of the view has been skewed, and everything has slowed to half-time. Moving causes everything to swim and the sound effects are hollow and surreal. A phone on a desk in the center of the room rings. Picking it up you hear your own voice telling you that you're in a computer game. The phone turns into a gun. The narrative over-voice interacts with the voice on the phone, musing "This whole thing...a computer game? Running around in slow motion to show off my moves? The feeling of my every move being controlled... Normally funny to consider, but just now it was the most horrible thing I could imagine..."(Max Payne) This is a highly sophisticated and artistic manipulation of interactive medium, giving it cognizance of itself. By becoming aware of itself as a medium and manipulating that fact, Max Payne is a pioneering work of interactive video art.

      The above is an example of how games can be critiqued in terms of narrative, aesthetics, and interactive effectiveness. If a critical basis could be established based on these characteristics, games as a medium could begin to be understood not purely for their entertainment value, but for their artistic value. Certainly this was the progression followed by film, from nickelodeons to full-fledged theaters. There are currently very loose criteria by which games are evaluated, based solely on their entertainment-enhancing properties. "Graphics, Control, Sound, and Fun-Factor" seem to be common elements in review today. These are idiotic, and must be thrown out. What is necessary for a functioning critical base is an established set of criteria that take into consideration all the factors mentioned above. These criteria must be dictated and revised by critics until there is a consensus. The product of critical consensus: academic awards for excellence, the next step in solidifying a medium's status as an art.

      Film has the Oscars, based on artistic principles such as Best Screenplay, Best Director, and Best Cinematography. Photography has the Infinity Awards, based on artistic principles such as Best Applied Photography and Best Design. These clearly defined criteria that constitute excellence is what games need, not "Fun Factor". Something more along the lines of Best Original Game Concept, Best Adapted Game Concept, Best Interactive Experience, Best Visual Experience, and Best Sound Experience would be far more appropriate. These are obviously not the breadth of all awards that could stem from the production of a single game, nor are they what a critical consensus would likely constitute, but they are far more academic and pertinent than "Fun-Factor". Perhaps the first game that deserves to win an 'Oscar' is Peter Molyneux's acclaimed, financially successful opus, Black and White.

      Whether or not it was intended, Black and White makes a statement. Essentially, Black and White is a morality test. Graphically and conceptually, Black and White places you in the role of a god, ruler of a tiny island populated by complicated, AI-driven villagers, who worship you. Your advancement in the game is based on your ability to garner belief in yourself as a god. The test of morality comes into play through the different methods available for collecting belief. You are presented with many situations that can be resolved however you choose. The unique perspective of the game's creator first surfaces here, in the situations you are presented with: the situations form the framework of a specific belief system, that of Molyneux himself.

      For example, at one point a woman prays at the altar in the center of the village, humbly begging you to save her sick brother who has in his illness wandered off, no where to be found. Dutifully, you scour the island for her missing brother. The real test of your mettle begins as she consistently continues revisiting the altar, which automatically snaps you back to the center of town, effectively inhibiting your ability to locate her missing brother. Do you ignore the annoying interruptions and continue to search? Abandon the search? Drop a rock on the impudent mortal? Locate her brother only so you can sacrifice him to teach her a lesson? The point is that you can be a malicious, vengeful god or you can be a benevolent, helping god. Both approaches advance you equally towards completion of the game, essentially leaving you to do things your way. Feedback alerting you as to whether you're a good or evil god comes in the form of subtle visual clues. If you consistently do evil things to gain belief, such as hurling huge boulders at villages or raining fire from the sky, your tiny island world begins to darken, the trees disappear leaving spiny, foreboding bramble, even the sky turns a dark and murky blood color. This type of visual execution is both unprecedented and brilliant. What other medium can create a world that changes as you change, as your very mood changes?

      Essentially, Black and White is a beautifully executed, AI-driven Rorschach test, created to tell you about yourself. Instead of creating a painting or film that tells you his view of society or life, Molyneux has created a game that tells you about yourself through his eyes. This is something that cannot be achieved in any other medium, but is an undeniably compelling and artistic experience. Black and White is part of the new generation of games, games that can be evaluated in terms of other forms of art and in terms of society as a whole and their statement about it.

      By drawing parallels to the aforementioned arts it is clear that in games we are not dealing with a novelty or fad, but with an art form in its infancy. Precedents have been set for both art forms that require great investments of time and money (motion pictures) and those are mass-produced (photography). Even now all three major limiting factors inhibiting games from their artistic actualization are waning. The technology that powers games is stabilizing, the critical criteria necessary to define them is being fleshed out, leading to the academic awards for excellence so sorely needed. All of these inexorably encroaching factors point to the fact that games will soon be properly recognized as an art form. Fundamentally, though, it is impossible to deny games' artistic properties.

      Games can be aesthetically pleasing: graceful, beautiful, and elegant. Games can present a statement, imbued with the unique perspective of their creator. Games can be created with the intention that they be considered art. Games are able to make a statement about life, society, or themselves. Games can push the boundaries of their own medium and challenge people to think about what they've experienced. Games can be a shared and intellectualized experience. Nothing that can create as compelling an expericence as Max Payne or Black and White can remain unrecognized as an art form for long. Games can and will escape this temporary, flimsy "Tomb".

      Email me at Crepusculum@portalofevil.com
      [ Parent ]
  • If.. by SuSEMann (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:36PM
  • Most aren't. by Chardish (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:37PM
  • A simple answer by iapetus (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:37PM
  • Depends on the Game by mrnohbdy (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:42PM
  • by Vegan Pagan (251984) <deanas@earthlink.net> on Sunday November 11 2001, @03:43PM (#2551577)
    Video games aren't art in the traditional sense that the patron/consumer can alter it. Most art - paintings, sculpture, music, drama - is alterable by its creator, but not by the patron. However, we could consider video games to be a play where the players are the actors and the developers are the playwrights. And the value of the video game could be the degree to which the developers can excite the players to perform. An unplayed game would be an incomplete composition; a complete composition of a video game would have to include players.

    Thus, in the classical definition of art, the value and quality of video games would be defined by their popularity. They would be most valuable while popular, and worthless once pasee. They would not accumulate value over time.
    • I disagree. by Bistronaut (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:44PM
  • Deer Hunter by nEoN nOoDlE (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:46PM
  • If hanging penises are art.... by sparhawk6 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:55PM
  • No, but it can be hard to tell by TheWhiteOtaku (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:58PM
  • Depends on the game. by Recovery1 (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:00PM
  • The creators of video games are artists. by gmplague (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:05PM
  • Are WE old farts? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Vegan Pagan (251984) <deanas@earthlink.net> on Sunday November 11 2001, @04:07PM (#2551634)
    Most of us Slashdot "youngsters" consider video games to be art because...

    1: ...they are art.
    2: ...we grew up with them, and thus like them and will defend them.

    But once we are old, will we consider that days art forms to be new? Once all of us are 60 there will be many new art forms, like genetically engineered pets (buy Pokemon-like creatures at a pet store), genetically engineered national forests, sky movies (raster scanning lasers aimed at clouds at night), moon carvings (ads visible to the earth could be cut into the moon), talking roads (asphault could be cut like an analog record to make your car buzz spoken words when driven over) and many other things. All of these things I mentioned will surely be art, but, 15 to 45 years from now, when we are 60 and crotchety, will our minds still be open enough to accept these new art forms as art?

    That's the question to help you understand why art establishments, run by 60 year olds themselves, would consider rejecting video games as art. Their opinion would be wrong, but it would be popular.
  • Similarities by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:09PM
  • Demoscene - Music, Gfx, DEMOS! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by BrookHarty (9119) on Sunday November 11 2001, @04:11PM (#2551642) Homepage Journal
    Demoscene - Music, Gfx, DEMOS!

    The largest computer artforms is the demo. These demos are music and gfx wrapped into a small package.

    There are contests around the world called "Demo Partys" which give awards on best gfx, best music, best demos in sizes (64K,etc), 1 hour to compose tunes with a set of samples, best mp3, best Gfx, most genuine.

    Many of these artists and musicians are working in the game industry or entertainment industry. Many of the older 64/apple/amiga game musicians are working for the largest game companies, creating tunes for your games you play today.

    Assembly [assembly.org] - The largest Demo party in the world
    OrangeJuice [ojuice.net] - Demoscene information center
    Google [google.com] demo directory.
    Nectarine [scenemusic.net] - 100% scene music radio!
    Crystal Melon [pir8.com] - Famous cracktros (minidemos) many converted to Shockwave so people can view them. (They were on a c64 and Amiga!)

    If you interested in video game, demo music, mods (4 channel) music, is like a midi with the wave files included.
    Check out
    Nectarine [scenemusic.net] - 100% scene music radio!
    Mod Archive [modarchive.com]
    Google [google.com] Mod directory
    Aminet [aminet.net] AmiNet mod archive.
    C64: Back in Time CD [lynnemusic.com] Rob Hubbard, Martin Galway, Ben Daglish, Chris Hülsbeck, Peter Clarke - Music Game Gods.
  • Programs vs Music by SuiteSisterMary (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:21PM
  • If code is art, then paint is art by Shelrem (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:26PM
  • what is art? by Jon-o (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:26PM
  • Defining Art? by Cheesy_Poof_Man (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:29PM
  • Arit is... by webprogrammer (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:29PM
  • VG vs Movies? by Lomby (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:31PM
  • In the Eye of the Beholder by Vegan Pagan (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:31PM
  • video games as art by friscolr (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:35PM
  • Homeworld; Longest Journey; and Art by MA17 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:42PM
  • Quoting Kevin Cloud from id Software... by jfedor (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:57PM
  • Non-video games are art too by mattbelcher (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:02PM
  • commertialism by Scrameustache (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:03PM
  • Video Games are art... although.. by RyuuzakiTetsuya (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:04PM
  • New Medium by NoImagination (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:05PM
  • Demos are art by krogoth (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:07PM
  • Forget computers as art... by Guppy06 (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:08PM
  • Movies, Games, etc by geomcbay (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:19PM
  • intersting article on planetquake by XRayX (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:20PM
  • This is about legal technicalities, not principles by serutan (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:26PM
  • Some videogames are art by Andrew Miklos (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:31PM
  • Not just any art... the next generation of art! by 3Suns (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:34PM
  • of course its art: art ~ artificial by fluxs (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:46PM
  • They're art. by MasterOfDisaster (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:52PM
  • Of course it is art. by pigeon (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:54PM
  • How wouldn't it be art? by metatruk (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:56PM
  • ???? by proxeus (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @05:58PM
  • Question was answered long ago - games are art. by Bosconian (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:02PM
  • Video games don't need approval of "Art" people by hebble (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:11PM
  • Of course it's art. by jcr (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:23PM
  • Art is not in the medium by decade_null (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:26PM
  • Two Words...Final Fantasy by FKell (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:30PM
  • Anything can be art, really by SecretAsianMan (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:34PM
  • what about... by M@T (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:43PM
  • 'Art' or 'Good Art' by palo0019 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:51PM
  • QDQ by PhilHibbs (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:56PM
  • I think if art, most videogames are pretty lousy by k8to (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @06:59PM
  • Video Games is art..... by incubuz1980 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:14PM
  • Wrong question by analog_line (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:24PM
  • Seaman by SimHacker (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:25PM
  • Videogames are art BECAUSE they are entertainment. by mmol_6453 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:37PM
  • Art and law by Espen (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:37PM
  • Art is Dead. by ElectricToothbrush (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:42PM
    • "idiot"? by hebble (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @11:58PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Why videogames aren't considered art by many. by foqn1bo (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:44PM
  • it depends upon who you ask, and when you ask them by circletimessquare (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:04PM
  • but what is the difference by snarkh (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:05PM
  • Some games, yes. by Kasreyn (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:05PM
  • Well, duh! Of course it's art. by clatterton (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:06PM
  • Absolutely. by soybased (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:14PM
    • Not quite by kin_korn_karn (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @12:02AM
  • Hmmm. Art? Yes and no. by pressman (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:29PM
  • Definitely by The_Weevil (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:52PM
  • a** my a** ( here I go again ) by tatum wannabee (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:53PM
  • it is what it is by wfrp01 (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:19PM
  • Oh come on, Everybody knows that... by Bob_Robertson (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:22PM
  • Soul Reaver 2 is a great work of Art by Vardamir (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:30PM
  • The collectability problem (Score:3, Informative)

    by Animats (122034) on Sunday November 11 2001, @09:36PM (#2552383) Homepage
    The only reason that video games aren't considered "art" is because, so far, nobody has successfully marketed high-priced collectables based on them.

    Animated cartoons didn't used to be "art". Then came "collectable animation cels". Then came serial numbered copies of animation cels. Now, there are serially numbered copies of hand-painted imitations of frames from computer-generated movies [yahoo.com] offered for sale.

    Games are moving in that direction, as the visuals get better. "The Art of Myst" showed at SFMOMA last summer. There's a Myst coffee-table book. We're getting close.

  • Of course by Link310 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:43PM
  • interactive movies by bugi (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:53PM
  • games can be art just as television can be. by porter235 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @10:45PM
  • of course it's art. by trapvector (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @11:09PM
  • Entertainment != art? BS. by CAIMLAS (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @12:50AM
  • what difference does it make by hackman (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @02:08AM
  • Two games which I consider to be pieces of art by iriki (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @03:53AM
  • Art, perception, effect. by Satchel Buddah (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @03:58AM
  • art by James Nolan (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @03:58AM
  • Are video games plumbing? by CdotZinger (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @04:30AM
  • A question of the game play by Municipa (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @04:38AM
  • What do you focus on in a game: story or play by Rubel (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @05:16AM
  • Definition of art by DarkDust (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @06:06AM
  • Isn't every computer program considered art? by jonte (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @06:35AM
  • My beliefs by ziggy_zero (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @06:49AM
  • Art is Entertainment. by MrFredBloggs (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @07:04AM
  • Arcade machines already in a museum by acomj (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @07:51AM
  • Video Games seem like a 'craft' to me... by Master_Ruthless (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @08:51AM
  • No, except Tetris and maybe some Myst-type stuff by cryptochrome (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @09:20AM
  • Art + Science by lysurgon (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @09:24AM
  • Can games be art? Yes. Are they? No. by Junks Jerzey (Score:2) Monday November 12 2001, @09:40AM
  • Is Shakespeare art? by SwansonMarpalum (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @01:28PM
  • Of course by Links Awake (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @04:52PM
  • Committee made art?? by bensch (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @05:22PM
  • Yes, but how does it feel...... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @09:58PM
  • a definate YES by BigfootNZ (Score:1) Tuesday November 13 2001, @12:06AM
  • Art is rhetoric. by ahfoo (Score:1) Tuesday November 13 2001, @12:32AM
  • I consider it as such. by The Evil Beaver (Score:1) Tuesday November 13 2001, @07:58AM
  • Video Chess for the 2600 by bjb (Score:2) Tuesday November 13 2001, @08:53AM
  • Skilled labor? by conner_bw (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @02:40PM
  • Re:total hullaballo (Score:5, Interesting)

    by wrinkledshirt (228541) on Sunday November 11 2001, @02:53PM (#2551421) Homepage
    trollin' trollin' trollin'...

    If there's one thing I've learned from emphasizing my studies in the philosophy of aesethetics...

    Yawn. All that makes you is a critic.

    However, code is just a skilled labor position, much like assembly work or something along those lines. You people really need to think before you post.

    Code is to a computer game as scaffolding is to a sculpture. You've missed the point, Mr. Aestheticist. If it gives the audience an experience, that makes it comparable to any narrative work, which makes a computer game just as much a work of art as literature or film. How it goes from inspiration to final product is irrelevent.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:total hullaballo by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:13PM
    • Re:total hullaballo by vtechpilot (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:26PM
    • Re:total hullaballo by ShinGouki (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:58PM
      • sigh by wrinkledshirt (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @04:39PM
        • Re:sigh by ShinGouki (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @03:40PM
          • Re:sigh by wrinkledshirt (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @04:54PM
            • Re:sigh by ShinGouki (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @05:35PM
      • Re:total hullaballo by ShinGouki (Score:1) Monday November 12 2001, @03:26PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Skilled labor! by Paul the Bold (Score:2) Sunday November 11 2001, @03:08PM
  • by sqlrob (173498) on Sunday November 11 2001, @04:44PM (#2551731)
    Take a good computer game, rip out the story. Place that story in book form. If that book in any way can be considered art (or literature), why isn't the game art?

    Games don't speak for the human condition or mind? Go play Sanitarium or Planescape:Torment or Deus Ex.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Entertainment vs. Art by The_dev0 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @07:20PM
  • Re:IMHO Commercial Products are not Art!!! by The_dev0 (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @08:03PM
  • Re:Hoi! by Alan Partridge (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:01PM
  • Re:Is it good art? by Nematode (Score:1) Sunday November 11 2001, @09:18PM
  • 39 replies beneath your current threshold.
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