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Getting Fired For Not Taking A Promotion?
Posted by
Cliff
on Wed Dec 27, 2000 08:23 AM
from the wasting-your-resources dept.
from the wasting-your-resources dept.
iKantBelieveThis asks: "I work in a relatively small (6-8 person) IT shop for a branch of a Large company. I am the #2 person in the department, and the IT Manager is leaving the company. It seems that management has determined that I am going to take over and be promoted to IT Manager. I don't want this. I am quite happy where I am, doing what I am doing and the pay is just fine. I don't want the headaches, political bickering and exposure to hostile fire that being the IT Manager entails. I am willing to take temporary responsibility for the operation, that is part of my job description. I am not refusing that part of the deal, I just don't want it to be permanent." Why should an employee be forced into a permanent promotion if they are doing well in their current one. Of course...in the corporate world, things are never as simple (or logical) as they should be.
"The company, however, is saying that either I take the promotion or be dismissed. Part of their reasoning is that if I am refusing the appointment, I must not be qualified for the job (I am qualified), even though I don't want it to begin with. Ah, the joys of corporate logic."
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Getting Fired For Not Taking A Promotion?
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Re:Why this is done (Score:3)
My problem with this response is that it denies the possibility that competent people could be interested in expanding their skill sets and meeting new challenges, but not interested in management.
Just because we're not in a field where we customarily work in isolation doesn't mean that we all have a desire to manage others in our field after we reach a certain level of development. Why do you feel a lack of interest in a management career path equates to a lack of interest in all professional development?
Furthermore, you're probably aware of the "Peter Principle"--essentially the argument that the typical career track moves people ahead until they're in a position that they're not quite competent in, and strands them there. In practice, this usually manifests itself as moving people who are brilliant workers out of their field and into positions where they are managing the workers in their field.
Can you say for sure that Don Knuth, Linus Torvalds or Dennis Ritchie would be great managers? I certainly can't. And I don't think that that "lack" would be a true weakness on their part. If someone is interested in more of a development and research role, that's what they should be looking for. Perhaps their "track" should lead them not to group management as such, but to development director, strategic planner or senior researcher. But moving into a role they're not comfortable with doesn't benefit either them or the company, does it?
In this particular case, accepting the position might not be a bad thing politically--but getting out of it as quickly as possible would be the next logical goal, whether it was a move within that company or out.
Its lose lose. But... (Score:3)
Be the guy who hires the second in command. Then... this is where things get tricky. After the 2nd in command is hired: switch positions with him. You get your old job back - and you just hired your new manager so you have the least chance to complain about your new manager - you hired 'em.
Good luck.
From the Tao of Programming... (Score:3)
The manager tried to give the programmer a bonus, but the programmer refused it, saying, "I wrote the program because I though it was an interesting concept, and thus I expect no reward."
The manager, upon hearing this, remarked, "This programmer, though he holds a position of small esteem, understands well the proper duty of an employee. Lets promote him to the exalted position of management consultant!"
But when told this, the programmer once more refused, saying, "I exist so that I can program. If I were promoted, I would do nothing but waste everyone's time. Can I go now? I have a program that I'm working one."
I protest your logic. (apologies) (Score:3)
Probably not as true for a large company. From what I've seen, its just the reverse. Management is everywhere. But it takes forever to find a competent DBA or SA.
By refusing the promotion, it looks to the company like you'll forever be a gruntworker--a dead end investment if you will. What in 5 years would make you worth more to the company? nothing. in fact, you'll probably be worth signifigantly less due to loss of knowledge and skill compared to the "young" crop of that time.
I'll dispute the logic here you use to justify your argument. As long as I keep my job skills up, there is no reason to even consider management until I get into my 40's. Technical specialization really helps here. Does any company running Oracle think they need to get rid of their DBAs five years down the road?
Why this is done (Score:3)
Here are two reasons your employer likely holds - one valid, one not.
Valid: If they hire replacements to work beneath you, with you taking the promotion, they can hire cheap labor. If they need to hire someone qualified to work above you, they need to pay your wage or better up front.
Not Valid: If you don't want to take the promotion, they see you as less than 100% dedicated to your work. A disinterest in becoming more involved with the company's core functioning is seen as an gross manifestation of that lack of dedication and likely a slap in the face to those above you who have worked hard to get there.
If you're lucky, you may be able to work past the second by laying down exactly what you can accomplish in your current capacity that you cannot accomplish in the new position. Making an effort to express your position as concisely and absolutely as possible may save your job.
If the first is more the issue, you may be screwed. If they're trying to turn you from an expensive worker into an inexpensive manager, that's going to be hard to fight.
More, valid reasons why this is done. (Score:3)
There are LOTS of other valid reasons:
* When NewGuy enters, you are his de facto superior. You are qualified to do the job; heck, you were doing it on a temporary basis. You have more experience within the company, making you likely better at the job than NewGuy. In short, you'd be a hard person to manage.
* And then there's the part about changing horses mid-stream. You can do the job as your boss did it. NewGuy cannot, but he'd be managing a guy who could. In fact, you'd work well without a manager, but how many of your co-workers would? You may have to re-learn how to do your job. It'd be cheaper and easier to just hire someone else.
* Imagine the execs explaining to potential NewGuys that you hold the job but don't want it. Either (a) the job looks crappy or (b) you are painted as inept. Either way, the solution is simple; sionara to you.
* The position you currently fill is easily replacable, provided that your replacement is hired long-term. If you take a temporary promotion, they still need someone to do the job you were doing. It'd be easier to hire someone to do that on a permanent basis. It isn't that they want you gone, but that they have no choice but to hire your replacement.
I am certain there are plenty of valid reasons.
Re:Why this is done (Score:3)
From the company's perspective, hopefully they're willing to pay what jobs are worth. If this fine gentleman accepts the promotion, he had *better* get the pay that a new IT manager deserves. It should not be cheaper. If the company thinks it will be cheaper, there's something wrong. Not valid!
However, by refusing the promotion, this still-fine-and-upstanding gentleman has basically said "I have reavhed the pinacle of my professional development; I have no interest in learning new jobs or meeting new challenges; leave me in my box and leave me alone."
I would fire someone (or encourage them to leave) for that attitude. The nature of competition is that it gets harder every day. Every member on the team needs to pull their weight -- which I don't doubt this fine specimen of gentlemanhood does -- but they need to pull more weight every day. The brighter ones need to rise to new challenges.
So yes, he does sound less than 100% dedicated to his company (which is different than his work). Plus, there will be political trouble when they hire an outside IT manager. Our fine gentleman has (accidentally) put himself in a position where he cannot be managed; if he doesn't like what the IT manager does, he'll be saying "What do you know? They wanted me to do your job but I turned it down!" Or at least he *could* say that.
So yes, I think it's time for our fine friend to move on. But I don't think the company here is being unreasonable. If you want a keep-your-head-down and just-do-the-same-thing-tomorrow-that-you-did-toda
It sounds like a weird motivation to me, but you gotta do what makes you happy. But you also have to appreciate that companies exist to succeed in their fields, not to offer safe, static environments for technology enthusiasts.
Cheers
-b
Mgmt Reasons (Score:3)
1. Hire from outside the department. No matter how good they guy is he'll take time learning the ropes and getting to know the employees. And until that guy gets up to speed, he'll be useless.
2. Promote from within the department. The new manager will already know the technical ropes and the learning curve on the mgmt ropes wouldn't take as long as with a new guy. Then you hire a low level new guy and everybody moves up a notch.
#2 certainly seems the better option for the business as long as the person tapped is willing to do it.
Had this happen to my boss... (Score:3)
...when I was hired in to my company, there was no manager for our small group. We're weird ducks anyway--a commercial products group based inside a NASA/DoD contractor [tbe.com], and no one wanted to do anything with us. Corporate tried to make my boss--a damned good project engineer--into the manager. I like the guy a lot, but he'll tell you that he's no manager-type. It does take a certain type of person to manage other people, and that's not always the #2 guy.
What happened? My boss held the job strictly on a temporary basis, we got a guy hired into the job, and things went back to A-OK. The "new guy" kept the heat off of the engineers and also brought some new insights in.
So, there's a lesson in this: Tell the PHB's to bring in someone new to the group. A manager doesn't have to know all about your group's work. A manager does have to communicate well with those horizontal and vertical to them. So explain how you're not qualified to take the job but very qualified to stay where you are. Good luck!
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No you don't, 'cuz they *really* want to fire you. (Score:4)
(1)Since he does his job well, he always gets his raise at his annual (or more frequent) review.
(2) Since he's been there a long time, he's gotten many raises.
(3) Therefore, he is now waaaay overpaid compared to anyone else in his department, since the other workers are new, or left after a 2-3 years for greener pastures, while he has been there 6, 10, or more years.
But firing him for doing his job would be too evil. Cutting his pay for doing his job is even more evil. So what is an "honourable" way to get rid of him?
Promote him into incompetance! Keep promoting him and adding responsibilities until he can't handle it and becomes incompetent in his new duties. Then you can safely fire him for not being able to do his job. Hey! It'll be *his* fault, right? Wow, aren't we the clever Mgmt folk!
However, if he refuses promotions, though, he's obviously on to Our Plan, and will be fired for outthinking Mgmt and making us look dumb and therefore creating a "hostile" work environment.
Four times (Score:4)
At three of the companies it was a bluff; they didn't want to lose me and all stayed fine.
At the fourth, they DID fire me. I had a job within a month that paid nearly twice as much and had better working conditions. I later found out (after the company folded six months later) the real reason they dumped me: they were planning some manifestly illegal activities and wanted me on the "inside" rather than in a position where I might ask difficult questions. Their firing me had NO adverse effect on my job hunt. One place wondered aloud why I'd stayed there so long. Evidently the company had gotten a reputation as being run by jerks and idiots. Interviewees were suspect if they'd stayed there more than a year or two, so getting dumped was actually in my favor.
I have never regretted turning down positions I didn't want, and I've been pushed toward them many more times than four. It's just those four that closely match your situation. In the case of the other three companies, I found that they respected me MORE after my refusals. Two of them gave me larger raises than usual immediately, all seemed to place more trust in my judgement afterwards.
Not a good idea to threaten your boss... (Score:5)
If I feel my compensation and/or benefits are not what they should be I approach my current supervisor and in a reasonable but assertive fashion discuss what changes I think need to be made. At no point in the discussion do I imply that these changes had better get made or I'm gone.
After that I let my supervisor run with it for approximately two weeks at which point I touch base with them again.
Based on this second meeting I either get a sense that things have a chance of going my way or conversely I quietly begin my search for the next position.
Since a job search can take a month or two (to find the right position) you may end up being pleasantly surprised by being called into your supervisor's office to learn that you got what you asked for and that it just took a bit for the corporate wheels to turn.
If this doesn't happen then no big deal as you have begun you job search in earnest and are probably close to securing a new position.
In fact if you're smart you're are preparing yourself to leave your current position by:
* Quietly migrating all personal possessions
at work back home.
* Making copies of useful work/documents you
have created while on the current job.
* Stealing office supplies/equipment...
All this is done quietly a bit at a time over several weeks prior to leaving.
Then finally, when you land your shiny new job, you can go into your supervisor's office, submit your letter of resignation and be prepared for that to be your last minute of employment at that company and be comfortable with the knowledge there is nothing left undone, except to walk out the door.
This approach has worked for me in both management and hands on technical positions.
I would also advise anyone to resist the temptation of "short-timeritious". Do your job well right up to the end of your employment at a given company. Leave everyone with a good impression because its a strangely small world in this industry.
Don't burn bridges or remove someone as a possible reference if you can help it.
Don't worry (Score:5)
In the worst case you can go find a new job in a short period of time. They are only shooting themselves in the foot if they fire you because not only can you likely sue them, they will then be losing TWO people at the top of their IT department instead of just one. They will then incur two times the costs to hire replacements, they will incur more 'downtime' with the new IT manager because he won't have you to learn the shop from and if they have to replace you as well, that is another person who has to come in and learn the shop and your software. They really don't want to have two new people to bring up to speed at once, because that will severely impact the work of at least one or two others. So in all reality, for a while they will be more than two people short staffed.
That being said... One thing you can do is offer to do the job on an interim basis and help them find the new IT manager in the mean time. That may not be the most fun thing in the world, but it makes it look like you are taking an active role in dealing with the situation and as a bonus, it gives you some control to hopefully get someone in who you can get along with. Basically, they make take 'no' more easily if they are off the hook from having to find a replacement manager, especially if you can do it without them having to pay big headhunter's fees. Start tapping your contact pool to see if you can find someone who might be qualified.
One of their possible motives for trying to force promote you is that they may think that they can offer you less of a salary increase than what they'd have to pay a new hire as manager. You shouldn't let them do that. If you get forced into taking the promotion, you should demand more than what the previous manager was getting. Then even if you hate it and end up quitting, you will at least have gotten some bucks out of the deal, a little resume padding and a bump in your salary history that will hopefully land you a better job and more pay later.
Re:Think like an entreprenuer (Score:5)
I disagree on this one. Your idea is the right way to do it, if the management had handled the situation maturely from the start. They have handled the situation in a terribly unprofessional way, and these are not people you will want to continue working with.
Any 'heroism' you might display in saving the department would likely be ignored by these people. They obviously appreciate your skills enough to want to promote you now-- a lot of good that has done you.
Don't roll the dice of having them fire you. Instead, begin circulating your resume, and have a job offer ready. If you can't stall them any longer, leave. If you get a good offer-- even at the same pay as now-- take it. Don't get into bid and counterbid. Your current employer has taken a step which demands that you leave within the next 30 days anyway.
It isn't easy, I know, to leave your job for something new. But you have to recognize when that step is necessary and find the will to act on it. I've watched a lot of friends stay in bad situations out of momentum when they knew it was time to go. It never pays off.
counter with your own ulitmatum (Score:5)
If a reasonable discussion does not begin immediately, start sending out your resume. When you get back a stack of interview requests, go back to Management and show them the physical evidence of the interest in your talents. Go to the interviews. When you get an offer, show it to Management. If they still do nothing, they really want you gone. More likely, though, at some point before you get an offer elsewhere they will get nervous about losing you entirely and start to be reasonable.
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