911 Calls Linux 308
911 Calls Linux - For Reliable Service
In January 1998 I began testing linux for our 911 Center here in St. George Utah. We are the 911 Center for the South west corner of Utah. In November of 1998 Testing was complete with great success. I implemented Linux as the workstation for our 911 Center using RedHat 5.2 and AfterStep as the windows manager. These workstations get worked on 24 hrs a day seven days a week and run several apps on screen.
Some of the apps that we run our Eterm to connect to the main HP Server, X3270 for our State computer connection, WordPerfect for different reports the dispatchers create, and some custom apps I have written in C.
Our WordPerfect was given to us Mike Cowpland CEO of Corel. The WordPerfect 8 has worked perfectly. Thanks Mike.
Our uptime has been over 200 DAYS. This doesn't even come close to the reboot once a day with the Microsoft OS. I could give several horror stories of when the dispatcher is in the middle of a hot call, then had to reboot.
Linux has done so well, that I have unplugged the reset buttons and disabled the power switch. This was done to prevent finger glitch when they have to restart the NT box our radios work from (I just wish Motorola would switch over), that sits next to the linux box. Linux is the main console that the 911 Dispatcher works from, and has held up better than any I have ever seen. Linux has been doing great in the server end, but I have heard it's not very good at the client end. NOT TRUE. My installation time for the first pc was 45 minutes for full install with apps. By the time I got to the last set it was 30 minutes for full install. As a client it has worked great.
The only shutdowns have been from one power supply failure, and a kernel update for each. The workstations are still running great.
Officer Sherman Stebbins
St. George Police Department
e-mail policesa@infowest.com
Re: (Score:1)
was freebsd considered? [nt] (Score:1)
look at crack.linuxppc.org
linux can't handle out of memory as well as freebsd.
(and whoever says linux is more stable then freebsd needs to do some research)
Moderators? (Score:1)
Smells like bigotry on the moderator's part.
Re:why??? (Score:1)
Re:That picture gives the wrong impression (Score:2)
Re:Liablity and Linux (Score:1)
Re:What's the uptime of WordPerfect and Afterstep? (Score:2)
I can't speak for WordPerfect (I use StarOffice), but AfterStep has never crashed on me.
Linux is more stable and reliable than Windows, plain and simple. If you've worked much with both platforms, you should know that.
Thad
Re:Geography Update... (Score:1)
:)
Of course, there's really not a whole lot much more North I guess.
Greg
Vancouver, BC
Re:why??? (Score:1)
Meanwhile my Lnux box at home has been up for about 3 months with no noticable performance degradation. The Linux box is doing a lot more than my NT box is doing too. (Web server..development work etc vs word processing )It's funny, I never even think about bringing it down..
I do have to add that I just love it when MS stormtroopers say that if your NT box is setup properly and administered properly then you will not have any problems...sheesh...give me a break. Maybe that's why some people have a hard time believing anything a Pro-microsoft person says.. they are always blaming any problem that anyone has on cheap hardware..bad sysadmin..improper setup...etc... I thought one of the benefits of NT was supposed to be how "easy" it to setup vs Linux..sheesh...
Re:why??? (Score:1)
As for TerraServer:
a) IBMs Patent Server (DB2) is bigger
b) It was not the bastion of stability or reliability for a while. (Click on Utah, get the middle of the Atlantic)
Re:You're kidding right? (Score:1)
I've got dozens of NT boxes that I've never needed to press the reset switch on. So does my experience negate this story?
Well, you didn't need to press the reset button, you could have set the power switch to off, and then back to on. You just used the reset button because it was easier.
=P
Re:why??? Real world!!! (Score:2)
To give you a somewhat silly analogy, let me introduce to NewT. NewT has has his driver's license revoked because he's in an accident on a weekly basis.
NewT claims that it isn't his fault, that he has never been in an accident when driving on closed roads where he's the only driver. He's never had an accident even when a handful of carefully selected drivers shared the roads with him.
"BUT IT'S NOT HIS FAULT THAT OTHER DRIVERS KEEP CAUSING HIM TO HAVE ACCIDENTS."
None of us would hesitate to yank NewT's license, because NewT's *must* be able to share the road with others.
Likewise claims that NT is as stable as other OSes "provided it is properly configured and is not running third-party software or contains additional hardware" leaves us underwhelmed. Even if we accept the implicit argument that Microsoft should be the only software vendor in the world, even MS applications have been known to cause NT to crash. And the idea that we should all be happy with a limited selection of video cards and network cards *only* is too silly to even bother responding to.
Re:Very neat indeed (Score:1)
Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me...
Re:What's the uptime? Better than NT. (Score:1)
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I've been using FreeBSD and Linux for almost two years now, and the only apps that have crashed on me have been Enlightenment, Gnome, and sometimes Netscape. Nothing else ever has. I've used Afterstep and Windowmaker for windowmanagers and both are rock solid, even when I have over 50 windows open, and the CPU is groaning at a 4+ job level and 100% CPU usage.
So what if Gnome crashes once in a while? I've never had KDE crash on me. So since you have a choice (I realize that concept is foriegn to the AC who posted this nonesense) choose the app that's solid, rather than the eye candy one.
That's a lot of crap. It's obvious you never use Linux, if you do, why be an Anonymous Coward? I use Wordperfect for Linux regularly, I have ever since it was released in Jan/Feb and it has never core dumped on me. It has all the great features Word doesn't have, like Shadowcursor, which allows you to drop a cursor anywhere in the page at any time, or Smartmenus, which change the menubars to fit your context in the document (outline, graphic object, etc.) Get a clue before you start spouting.
Re:why??? (Score:1)
Dude. You're right. I've seen it before too.
Mabie it's a Microsoft plant, attempting to spread random FUD.
Re:That picture gives the wrong impression (Score:1)
This should be displayed somewhere where PHB's are (Score:2)
Re:why??? (Score:1)
What I advocate is to use what's best for the situation at hand. I have both NT 4 and Slackware 4 (2.2.6) running in my home. The NT box is my primary workstation whereas the Slackware box is an ADSL router.
(If you must know, it hasn't bluescreen on me unless I was mucking with the registry or hardware.)
The router is a lowly 486/66 w/20MB RAM and has 400MB harddrive space and is hums along quite nicely. The only complaint I have is that for the box to recognize the second ISA NIC, I had to compile the hex address directly into the kernel. -.- Sure, you say buy better hardware so that passing the address isn't necessary, but Linux is supposed to run great on old hardware. =P Lets just say that compiling on a 486 is just, um, slow. ^_^
So after about a weekend of compiling, configuring, reading how-tos, etc., my router is up and running happily.
Now, if I had NT as the router, then install would have taken less time, but I would have to spend a little more for the hardware. But, it wouldn't have taken the whole weekend, nor would I have to compile the hex address into the kernel (as if I could if I wanted to. =P).
Moral of the story? Time is money saved or money could save you time. YMMV though, so use what's best for the job.
FeiYen
Re:Liablity and Linux (Score:1)
Re:hmmm. (Score:1)
This is great news that should be spread (Score:1)
I can't wait for the AC FUD spreaders, though.
George
911 number string (Score:1)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
Re:Doughnut (Score:1)
Re:Liablity and Linux (Score:2)
A lot of nuclear reactors use OLD computers and OLD software. Some, so old that the companies no longer exist. Why? Because it's reliable and robust. If it weren't, the computer would be a pool of melted plastic, metal and silicon by now. Few, if any, nuclear power plants gamble on upgrading to more modern computers. They don't need the extra power, and they certainly don't want the extra bugs. What works works, and they'll generally leave it alone.
The same is true of a lot of mission-critical organisations. I remember when I was on a tour of Fylingdales, Yorkshire, and being appaled at the archaic equiptment they were using. Right out of the stone-age! But it worked, and that mattered more to them than all the fancy gimics that were on the market.
Excellent (Score:1)
Security through crashing (Score:1)
Are you trying to imply that NT crashes as a security precaution?
You gotta stop hanging around those marketing people.
I think Slashdot does pretty well considering the number of users that hit it.
Certainly better than some of these MS sites with N machines
running ASP that still can't serve up a page in a reasonable amount of time.
Re:This is great news that should be spread (Score:1)
Just wait - according to the piece on Wired the other day, most of those outlets monitor /., so I would expect Officer Sherman's phone to start ringing soon...
________________________
talk about 'mission critical' application (Score:1)
Chuck
Re:What's the uptime of WordPerfect and Afterstep? (Score:1)
Yes, GNOME would be a *really* bad idea in such an environment. Every time I use GNOME it locks up at some point or another. It makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells.
Afterstep, OTOH, I've never had trouble with. I used it for a long time without any trouble whatsoever right up until I started using WindowMaker, then KDE (I'm now waiting for KDE's performance under WindowMaker to improve, It's slow on my machine...).
If you're running GNOME under Afterstep and it locks up, it's probably GNOME.
Plus, if X locks up, and you're using kdm/xdm, it'll come right up again in record time.
hmmm. (Score:2)
In this case, I was wondering, is it just me? Or does this read like a hoax written by a 13 year old?
On a broader note, how does "new journalism" validate the things it reports on? I've been bothered by this for quite some time. I mean, what's to prevent me from writing some story, taking out a hotmail account called "Busch@hotmail.com" and writing in about how I'm the plant manager for Busch Beer and we've just switched all our floor-control boxes over to Linux?
Just wondering....and I think it's something that will have to be addressed as the Slashdot-esqe news source fights for credibility.
Congrats, Officer... (Score:2)
Re:Mormons make good neighbors. (Score:1)
And as far as the wages thing goes - take a look at the cost of living! Utah's cost of living is pretty sane. I know people willing to take a 30% pay cut just to move to Utah, and they live in better houses in safer areas. You may complain about the $$$, but there are some things you can't trade for money - like quality of life, and not having to worry about your car being stolen or vandalized every day.
Re:But rural areas don't have many phones (Score:1)
Re:why??? (Score:1)
Re:Why it's sooo hard for this stuff to happen.... (Score:1)
I know in some cases it is impossible to waive a right to sue for a class of possible events. 'Agreeing' to a EULA doesn't necessarily waive your right to sue under all circumstances. However, the admission/admonition that all computer software is designed to fail under unforeseen circumstances (actual use, when it comes to '95) is a pretty good protection. That is - if you were trying to use Windows to prevent damage, and it failed, MS is not liable for that damage because they told you that Windows doesn't work. If you were using Windows, and because of MS's negligence or malice, Windows leaps from the computer and strangles your girlfriend, I'd call a lawyer. Unless they've updated the EULA to specifically mention Windows' tendencies to murder people. Something like that.
Microsoft GPL - You can't sue them either. (Score:1)
Untrue. How many people actually read the Microsoft licence?
Take a look at microsoft's copyright page, or read the licence that came with your shiny NT or windows software if you have any questions.
[microsoft.com]
http://www.microsoft.com/misc/cpyright.htm
If Microsoft could be sued everytime there was a loss of data, profits, or what not, do you think they would still be in business?
Tech support workers nightmare. (Score:1)
Caller : Some psycho is shooting at my house!
Officer: Please calm down sir, what is your location?
Caller : My address is 14802 SE 10th ST..on the corner of 148th!
Officer: Oh
Caller : What?
Officer: Uh, do you know anything about computers?
Caller : WHAT?!
Officer: hold on..
[bang! bang!]
Caller : Can't you send someone down here?!
Officer: Well I was about to, but my application stopped responding.
[bang!]
Caller : Well do something!
Officer: What should I do? I don't know anything about computers!
Caller : Did you try hitting control-alt-delete?
Officer: What's that?
Caller : Hold down control and alt, then press the delete key.
Officer: This window came up that says "Close Program"
Caller : Okay, click on the program in the list that matches the one that's crashed.
[bang!]
Caller : Shit! my Sun!
Officer: How do i find that out?
Caller : Huh?
Officer: The name of the program?
Caller : You don't know the name of the program?
...continue ad nauseum
Re:What's the uptime of WordPerfect and Afterstep? (Score:1)
Re:No computers in Utah? What about Novell, WP? (Score:1)
Re:What's the uptime of WordPerfect and Afterstep? (Score:1)
The default telnet on NT crashes often. Period. While it is possible to go out and pay for a telnet client? Why? When the one on Linux does not crash and is free.
Exactly.
Time to reboot NT: 3-5 Minutes, time to log back in: 30 seconds.
Hum.. NT Box here, explo(d)er has crashed 3 times today (it is only noon!) KDE on the box next to me has been up... lets see, oh 28 days... With Seti@home client, Netscape, Xosview, xterm(s),and gimp all running for about that time too.
Word... Access... Excel all go haywire when exploder crashes... What about Linux? Memory protection, remember that?
NT Crashes more, for me. Exploder (like the name says) explodes. KDE has not for me since 0.9. I cannot talk for GNOME, but in terms of desktop stability, NT just does not have it... So where is the line drawn? is explorer a port of the operating system, or a tool? if it crashes, and causes a BSOD, is it an application that failed, or the OS? Microsoft is innovating (read stuffing) so much stuff (read crap) into their OS, that one thing can take the entire thing down. Applications will crash, but if they take down the OS also, then there is a Real problem.
If you weld your bed to the wall and floor, and it breaks, it will take the floor and wall down with it. That is why it is good to separate things out.
Good Luck to the St. George, Utah PD.
Re:A suggestion to prevent this kind of nonsense (Score:2)
Re:why???... Because! (Score:1)
I've administered quite a few Windows NT/98/95 machines also. One NT Server doing nothing but running IIS with about 1 and a half million hits a month has never lasted longer than a week. Running Service Pack 4, quite highly tuned. It hasn't ever given BSOD's, or Kernel Panics, but after about a week of running it just gets really buggy, to the point that IIS can barely even run anymore, and the memory usage will be hitting the roof. I also have an NT machine running SQL Server, and doing some fileserving, also quite highly tuned. Using the only remote administration software that half way works on the SMP machine, it gets totally locked at totally different intervals at times, to the point that the OS is completely wacked, including all the services etc. I also know quite a few other people running NT as their servers all having to reboot weekly, or even more often. Under any type of semi heavy use their boxes just crash all the time. A LOT of them have switched over to linux just so they don't have to reboot their server everyday, and they are now quite happy... Including my Mother!
So you can make all of the unfounded FUD based "Comments" that you want, but the truth still remains. NT is a bloated buggy "Server OS" While Linux just chugs away. There are a few areas in Linux that needs improving, like some of the SCSI card drivers are still a bit buggy, and some SMP stuff could be worked on a bit (Though Linux does SMP MUCH better than NT). As always any piece of art has areas that were untouched by the artist given restraints on time, etc. but the great thing about Linux is that it's a piece of art not yet completed. Better yet it probably will never be perfected continually giving it's benefactors the chance to mold it, and form it into a wonderful, elegant, beauty of an OS. In conclusion, you should become more familiar with a subject matter before you make inadequate, fuzzy, and incomplete statements about it. Go to school, learn how to comprehend (and maybe even learn how to study!), envelope yourself in the topics you are so quick to take up and then come up with your own opinion that you can actually back up. One based on fact... And remember that something being lovingly made by thousands of devoted people happy to work on it, will generally be much better than anything a commercial money-grubbing monopolistic corporation can spring out of it's hat!
All OSs have there [sic] place (Score:1)
Re:why??? (Score:1)
False things are bad.
All things are true in some sense, false in some sense meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense. A public service clarification by the Sri Syadasti School of Spiritual Wisdom, Wilmette. The teachines of the Sri Syadasti School of Spiritual Wisdom are true in some sense, false in some sense meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense. Patamunzo Lingananda School of Higher Spiritual Wisdom, Skokie.
Re:Thats because its utah :) (Score:1)
And a funny one, at that...
Re:Windows NT in the public safety field (Score:2)
What people seem to be forgetting, also, is that the people operating the systems are not trained rats. They are completely capable of handling every incident without the aid of any computers at all. therefore, if a computer crashes, dispatch doesn't come to a screeching halt. Until a compltely stable, robust SUITE of applications is delveloped natively for linux, it will not be a practical solution for many aapplications. I'd love to see Linux be a player in this arena, but it needs to earn its reputation from experience, not solely from the enthusiastic cheerleading of the linux community.
Re:youre a fucking liar. (Score:1)
Sounds like an MS-AC who won't face facts
It seems to be something of a problem to some people, They just love to bash everybody who doesn't share their point of view, and when faced with facts, they just blow up !
A.Grandt
Re:A suggestion to prevent this kind of nonsense (Score:2)
There's also a bit too much bias, whether on purpose or not. For example, when Amiga announced its new OS would be a Linux/BeOS hybrid, slashdot reported it'd run Linux, while not mentioning BeOS at all. It turns out BeOS is the only OS that was correct in that statement (Linux is not being used), so the slashdot story was 100% wrong, compared to the 50% wrong of the story it linked to.
Re:why??? (Score:1)
And to your saying people are always blaming problems on bad sysadmin...setup..etc... I have noticed that it is the same with all OS's. I will say, that for me, (IMHO) NT is easier for the novice to setup. I can now put a Slackware box up with KDM and KDE configured in about 1hr. and most of that setup time is configuring the packages I want. It takes the same setup time for NT as well... My experience is that if you know either OS, you can get a very stable machine out if it.
I also hate the MS memory and resource management and would love to use Linux as my desktop, but I do not have a MS compatible office suite and cant afford to buy one and wont for work. My office is a MS workshop, but for security analysis and networking issues, I boot to Linux.
You usually can't (Score:1)
Re:Application Stability: Linux vs NT (Score:1)
My Mom, (we'll, change this to my Dad, as my Mom is not a computer user at all) does not know the difference between OS, Hardware, software, whatever, However, he does know that Windows (NT) crashes... That is bad. He also knows that when his Netscape Messenger (in Linux) crashes, he starts it back up. it works fine. The same in NT? No. Many a time after an application crashes in NT, shotty memory de-allocation makes the program un-runnable without a reboot. It is simply a design flaw in the OS. Bad memory handling.
True, true, but if an application takes the OS down, corrupts the file system, and destroys ALL the work, not just one file, then the OS failed the job. And we are not comparing Linux to 95, we are comparing it to NT. 9X to Linux would be like comparing a 91 Ford Escort to a 99 Mazda RX-7.
It seems obvious that you had a bad crash of an application or two with Linux. Thus, your claim that all the OS and applications are crap is not valid. Have you spent any time on Linux in recent months/years? I have. My "Swear at the screen" factor has gone down by 10 fold. Then, back on an NT box for a project. same old fist shaking... waiting for things to finish up and get done, so I can do something else... applications crashing, unable to come back up without a reboot. Linux's memory handling and multitasking is superior, i can do many things at the same time. No stupid hour glasses in my way, and no OS Crashes that take away everything I was working on. If an application dies, I just start it back up without the worry of it not working properly. Ok, then lets look at the case of the operating system crashing ever minute, or even every 3 hours (about average around here). What then? wait 3-5 (more like 5-10) minutes for the OS to come back up. Loss in productivity. If a user application were to die every minute, there would be a need for a new application. This is exacly why Linux is gaining popularity. NT Crashes, a solution was needed, Linux/UNIX is it (and has been, people just were swoon by MS Marketing, they are getting over it now.)
Besides, the developers of the apps would be under pressure to write better code. The open source community could pitch in, and send in bug fixes. If this were a commercial product, it would simply not exist. No developer in their right mind would release it, even for NT.
Now agian, let us consider the windows case: An unstable shell so tightly integrated with the kernel that a simple web browser crash can cause a BSOD. The industry accepts this as the norm, and begin to live with it. If KDE crashes... um.. I don't know! I have never had it crash... It would probably leave the other applications alone, with out and "chrome" around them. You could either logout, and back in again, or just restart the WM. Please provide some examples. I don't think you can. You know what this is called? FUD. Pure and Simple. This Trio3d runs faster under XF86 than NT. Word is even more of a risk. Why do you hear of Word viri? Internet Explorer? Please! a crash a minute kludge built upon a program from 1991 (Mosaic). While the same can be said about Netscape, this is not the case with Mozilla (NS5). Do you think the Utah police would want the Melissa virus to send porn sites to everybody in their address book? Why do you not hear about such things happening to Linux boxen/users? Because MS is the one that takes short cuts in code, more concerned with presentation than functionality, security or stability. I could give more examples from the past 10 years, but that would be getting too off topic. Um.. Non-stop? meaning no reboots? with Service Pack 5? Funny, I though SP5 came out in May. I have a 2.0.35 box that hasn't been rebooted since June 1998. While it is true you need to reboot it install a new kernel, that's just about it.
Ok, here is my FUD Buster short list:
Now, if the services Linux provides are that rock solid, why is it so hard for you to beleive the user applications are not too? Or at the least, more so than NT's. it is just an accepted fact the NT needs a swift kick and more administration than UNIX boxen. The same goes for Desktop boxen too. Applications will get better in stability, all around.
Re:"Office.. i think i can hear someone....." (Score:1)
Raising Slashdotting to a new level! (Score:1)
All while watching their poor server being vaporised
Linux in Utah is anything but small! (Score:1)
"After that date it was decided not to use Linux" (Score:1)
In fact, I believe you are confusing the Amiga with the iToaster [bedope.com], perhaps understandable given the relative ratios of hype to shipping product in both cases.
Just to further rub your nose in it, the original Slashdot article to which you referred, http://slashdot.org/articles/99/06/24/1342228.shtm l [slashdot.org] was, in fact, entirely accurate, given the information available at the time of writing. Yes, the headline is "Is the iToaster a Linux Box? Will there be Source?", which someone having an extended fantasy of Slashdot bias could construe into a misleading statement; but the first sentence of the article reads: Allright so several people have noted that the iToaster from Microworkz runs a "BeOS/Linux Hybrid". The article then goes into some depth to investigate this claim.
Perhaps the next time you feel the need to make outrageous claims, you'll take a moment to check your facts first.
Re:why??? (Score:1)
I was reading it for the 911 part of the story. To clarify my statement: I stop reading anything about linux that contais "linux is the best thing to ever exist and MS just blows period."
I'm not boycotting, just filtering...
Re:Very neat indeed (Score:1)
Heh, was this the MGM Grand [mgmgrand.com]? I was driving by last October and noticed the BSOD on one of their big displays outside. Too funny...
Re:why??? (Score:1)
Uhm, why didn't you just modify
-- Keith Moore
Re:Maybe we should all move to utah (Score:2)
A suggestion to prevent this kind of nonsense (Score:3)
To prevent this kind of sowing of doubt, may I suggest each story have a small link next to it entitled "verification" or something similar, that would take the curious or doubtful to a web page summarizing the verification process in much the same way you just did? For links to other news sites this probably isn't necessary, though it might still be a nice touch to have the same kind of link, pointing to that new site's journalistic "standards" page (if they have one).
Clearly this kind of stunning success for Linux is rubbing some folks the wrong way -- wonder why.
Re:"Office.. i think i can hear someone....." (Score:2)
Well, not a kernel panic, but daily (or more) spontaneous reboots for no obvious reason.
At least, not obvious until I looked at little closer at the machine (under my desk) and noticed the power cord not fully inserted, so that it would power glitch when I'd bump my leg against it. (Yes, it would re-boot when I booted it
Rebooting for installs... (Score:3)
>Yes, you need to reboot much more when
>installing or changing software than Linux, but
>you can always say no and stop and restart the
>service. (Same basic prinicple on Linux)
No. These are very different issues. When it comes to shared libraries, Windows has dropped the ball. Shared libraries mean that some other application (perhaps even the OS) may use them and have them locked. When you are asked to reboot, it is because some shared libraries couldnot be copied because they were locked. These shared libraries will not get copied until you reboot. More concerning, however, is the uninstall. If the uninstall can't delete something (say X.DLL), it marks it for deletion at next reboot, and asks if you want to reboot. If you say no, and go install something else in the meantime, which happens to try to install X.DLL, things will be happy until you reboot, when X.DLL is deleted (as the uninstaller told it to do).
Linux deals with updating shared libraries, partially as a result of naming conventions, and partially as a result of filesystem capabilities.
In Windows, if a program is using a particular shared library, you cannot remove that library file from the filesystem. It is locked. Under Linux, what is locked are the inodes. It is irrelevant whether or not the file has a filename linked to it. When I use the unlink() system call (there's a reason there's no delete_file() sys call), we unlink the file name from the inodes storing the file, preventing more apps from opening it. Only when the file's usage count drops to 0 is it removed from the fs. This means that I can create a new file, with the same name as the one I just unlinked, without affecting the performance of any applications using the original file. I can replace shared libraries without having to stop the application using the shared library.
Further, most Linux applications don't install new shared libraries when they install themselves. It would be seen as very poor practice for some little app to install a new version of glibc as part of its own installation. Yet, we accept this as normal in the NT world.
Even better, Linux allows multiple versions of a library to coexist on a system, using version numbers. Under Windows, you can't even get Microsoft's own ODBC 3.51 to coexist with ODBC 4.0.
Re:I hope they do better than /. (Score:2)
How is
90% of the time, when I have problems connecting to slashdot, it's either the ad banner garbage, or the network itself is bad, or there is an actual problem with Slashdot's software.
Which brings me to your second point. Doing anything even remotely similar to slashdot on an NT system is basically impossible. It simply doesn't have the flexibility.
If
Finally that bit about 2.2 tells me what I already know: you are full of it, and are clearly striving to give us the appearance that you know what you are talking about. 2.0.30+ was (and arguablly still is) probably more stable than most 2.2.x releases so far. The fact that 2.2.x itself is far more stable than any MS OS (any version, throughout all of MS's history) by orders of magnitude should tell you something.
You clearly have the whole thing backwards anyway. Bleeding edge kernels always have two things in common: extra features, at cost of stability. The OSS model NEVER suggests you regularly update mission critical installations. However, things like slashdot, and my home machine, are hardly critical; I re-install kernels as they come out, anyway. I imagine Rob is constantly twiddling with slashdot itself, and not just a "development" mirror machine.
Which brings me to the question of what long uptimes mean. A long uptime means to ME that a) the system is stable and doesn't crash and b) I dont have to reboot it everytime i change something unrelated to having to reboot (like installing a
Your comment about security makes absolutely no sense, assuming the admin knows what he's doing.
How, exactly, is uptime related to the system's security? I must have missed something. Are you telling me that because NT crashes 3 times a week its secure? Does a long uptime indicate that the admin is too lazy to apply patches, or that the OS vendor hasn't supplied patches? Is the latter because the OS doesn't need patches, or because the vendor doesn't even bother to develop and then release timely patches?
I can only conclude that you are hinting that the admins of boxes with long uptimes are idiots who refuse to update. I agree. They are idiots, but don't forget that to them, having a box that stays up for more than 3 days is a miracle, thanks to MS training everybody that rebooting fixes everything.
Re:Premptive Anti-FUD Post (Score:2)
Assuming the problem is big enough to warrant it, they can outsource and fix whatever bugs are ailing them if need be.
What do they do with Microsoft?
Sign over their souls to Bill Gates? I'm sure Bill Gates doesn't care about the little fish in the sea. With Linux, if you don't like one vendor, you go to another.
Re:This should be displayed somewhere where PHB's (Score:2)
Windows NT has no recovery mechanism from such situations, and given that a 911 service is bound to be extremely busy 100% of the time, the workload is inevitably going to bring up more bugs than any domestic, or even routine office, use.
Don't slag off people who put machines through unusual stresses as guilty of FUD. Think, first, about the fact that these ARE unusual stresses! If it takes an extreme environment to cause a particular bug to surface, why aren't you praising the coder for writing that well??!! Why spend all your time critisising the finder?
You don't know everything, no matter how much you might believe you do. Obscure and unusual bugs happen all the time in computing, especially under highly extreme situations and workloads. Can you tell me that you've checked the configuration they are using, under the stresses they are putting that box, to see if it will crash? No? Oh, there's a surprise. You'd rather hide behind the AC stamp than face the fact that bugs exist, whether it's in Linux or NT.
"Office.. i think i can hear someone....." (Score:3)
Possilbe scenario on a NT or 95/98 network for 911.. (god forbid they should use TAPI..)
officer-"Hello 991."
person-"help me please... i can hear someone in my house..."
officer-"hold on... ok i have your location
person-"PLEASE hurry i can heAr them coming!!!"
Officer-"oh *hit.. blue screen crash.. Just hold on a sec ok?"
person-"AHHHHW!HH!Hhaawaw!H!HH!
officer-"hello? hello?
hehe
"Y'all come back Y'a Hear!?!?"
RMS++? (Score:3)
Free Software philosophy that has driven our cause. That free software not only enriches our lives but also saves them is indeed something to be proud of -- and has shown me, for one, that
Free Software can mean much more than I had previously imagined.
Why it's sooo hard for this stuff to happen..... (Score:2)
This is a world where Murphy's Law and Linux are the only things not effected by Murphy's Law.
why??? (Score:5)
First let me say that I think it's great that Linux is getting this good exposure. My question is this: Why does everyone say it's a great article when somebody writes about NT's downtime, and how Linux is better than NT. However, if someone writes something positive about NT (or BSD, or anything that's NOT Linux), it's instantly labelled as "FUD" or "flamebait".
I think Linux is great and all, but it's not perfect (yet), we need to be fair in advocating it.
Re:Not a good idea! (Score:2)
cops and metal detectors in our schools.
One thing about Utahns, they continue to beleive that they are immune from the problems that afflict the rest of society, while the truth is, for the most part, their violent crime rate is quite similar to metropolitan areas of similar size.
On the other hand, the permissive business environment among "members" means the state has been home to some major fraud outbreaks, not that this level of trust is necessarily a bad thing.
On the other hand, there have been some notable child welfare problems in utah which result, in part, because of gaping failures of the social system.
I know for my part that when I was in school in the early 80's all the Salt Lake City high schools had cops on the staff, along with some private goons. We had people bringing guns & knives to school. A fair number of suicides, frequent outbreaks of violence and intimidation. Date rapes by nice mormon boys, lots of drunken driving by those same nice mormon boys. Teenaged pregnancies (a state seanator's daughter). And this was in one of the good schools.
It wasn't just SLC though. The number of teenaged pregnancies among underaged Mormon girls in smaller, rural, predominantly Mormon communities suggests that Utah is not immune.
In otherwords, I call bullshit on your representation of Utah schools.
Truth is not always fair... (Score:2)
Presumably, most of the people here have had to deal with NT (I certainly have), and they know what's good, stable and flexible, and what's not. That is not bias; it's experience.
Certainly, Astroturfers will want to paint it as bias, but it's no more biased than reporting the baseball scores. What is, is.
I know from personal experience that I can set up a Linux box, and apart from occasional updates, leave it be. I have never been able to do that with an NT box for more than a couple months at a time, and NT machines have this nasty habit of suddenly becoming flaky for no apparent reason, depending on load and the particular software/services you're running. And service packs are a crapshoot (remember NT4 SP2?).
So, it's a great article because it is confirming the experience of most of the people here who have actually used both Linux and NT to any significant extent.
--
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page [slappy.org]
Re:hmmm. (Score:5)
our Address is 200 E. 265 N. St. George Utah, if you want to see the 911 center and myself in person (if you don't believe). I take care of the 911 center network and Fatal accidents.
Sherm
A resident of St. George. (Score:2)
So you admit Linux is easier to set up than NT? (Score:2)
So maybe he's a moron (I reserve judgement). But if he is, that says that it's easier (for a moron) to set up a stable Linux system than it is for a moron to set up a stable NT system.
'Nuff said. Go back to spending your Wagged money and leave us alone.
-E
Odd, I've never had a kernel panic (Score:2)
But I've never had a kernel panic with the stock Linux kernel on supported hardware, and I've had some sites out in the field since 1996. (Not running continuously, they were upgraded from Red Hat 3.0.3 to Red Hat 4.2 in that time frame, but there were no kernel panics).
-E
If Microsoft ran 911... (Score:4)
*beep*
Are you sure you want to speak with an operator?
*BEEEP!*
This operation could not be completed because an error of type -4019 occurred. Please standby, transferring you to the next available operator. Your expected wait time is: 493 minutes. Please have your MS-PIN and Certificate of..
*BEEP!* *BEEEEEEEEP!* *BEEEEEEEP!!*
... and thank you for using MS911!
*click*
NO CARRIER
--
Why you're wrong (Score:2)
But: you can say "man, that's Microsoft's problem, I've reported it to them and they say they'll fix it but I can't do anything about it until they do." Then you can go along with sitting on your bun drawing your paycheck for clicking a mouse.
Whereas with Linux, you have the source, so even if you say "Man, that's Red Hat's problem, I've reported it to them" etc., sooner or later someone is bound to say "Hold it! You have the source! Why don't YOU fix the problem?" Thus requiring you to actually do work.
I run EST Inc.'s network on Linux because I like solving problems, but if I were a lazy guy more intent on my paycheck than on solving problems, I'd certainly rather run NT. With NT I can just shrug my shoulders and say "That's Microsoft's problem." With Linux, people expect me to fix the problem.
But, alas, I appear to be unusual in my desire to fix problems. Most people seem to prefer to "leave it to Mickeysoft".
-E
You forgot "was improperly configured" (Score:2)
What, it takes being an actual Microsoft engineer to configure NT?
meanwhile, I can throw Linux on any old junk PC in the office and it just works. Same PC that NT blue-screens on regularly.
Pfui.
-E
But rural areas don't have many phones (Score:2)
I'm sure this guy would love to have redundant power supplies, hot swap RAID, etc. in his workstations, but a $12,000 workstation is the same price as a 911 dispatcher in Utah (well, actually, 911 dispatchers in Utah probably make less than that, but $12K was what they made in my rural community in Louisiana). If it's a choice between talking to a dispatcher, and getting a busy signal because they don't have enough dispatchers because they had to fire one to buy a redundant computer, well, I'll choose a dispatcher all the time.
That's the kind of hard decisions that governments must make all the time, and why it's a mystery that Linux hasn't taken hold in a big way in the government market.
-E
Re:Why it's sooo hard for this stuff to happen.... (Score:2)
one could make an argument that the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the individual or group of individuals who chose to use the software package. after all, noone is forcing this 911 center to use linux, and more importantly, if they think that there is a potential for disaster, well, they have all the source, and they are not only welcomed, but encouraged to improve the software so that it is less likely to fail.
I don't see any reason why we should hold software developers responsible for faulty software. that's not to say that they shouldnt feel a need to create robust software; it's just that it is the choice of the user what systems to use.
Re:Liablity and Linux (Score:2)
As far as I can tell, the answer is "No."
But you can certainly BLAME Microsoft if their software quits working. Saves having to actually do some work and FIX what's broken, which is what you'd have to do if it was Linux (either by fixing the source code yourself, or hiring a consultant to fix it for you).
-E
More Microsoftie blather, sigh (Score:2)
Anyhow: At Enhanced Software Technologies Inc. (the BRU guys), we run our infrastructure on Linux. Period. (Except for a legacy SCO box used for some old stuff, sigh, but that's going away soon). Sales, marketing, financials, every desktop is a Linux box.
WordPerfect 7 doesn't crash. KDE doesn't crash. (We used to use Afterstep, but KDE is easier for the clueless marketing types to use). The only thing that DOES crash is Netscape (a giant bug masquerading as a browser), but that's a nuisance, rather than a loss of mission critical data.
In short, anybody who says Linux is not stable in a workstation environment is smoking some mighty fine Redmond herb. We have too many examples to the contrary, ranging from Garden Grove CA onwards.
-E
Very neat indeed (Score:3)
Now if I was the one on the phone getting directions on how to revive or possibly save the family member/friends life I would not want directions on the dispatchers screen to suddenly be replaced by a blue screen. I don't think a GPF would do me any good then.
Just think of the many people relying on Windows to aid many citizens in everyday tasks. For example, I found this picture [207.240.121.247] quite amusing until I actually thought about it. How would I feel if I had to scramble around the airport at the last minute figuring out if my flight was delayed or not because of an error in the messaging system. Not that funny anymore.
Overall I think that Officer should be awarded something.. I don't know what, but maybe a gold penguin or something at the 1st Annual Linux Awards when they eventually are sponsored
Congrats to Officer Linux and the Sgt.,
Matthew
______________________________________
Re:Maybe we should all move to utah (Score:2)
--Shoeboy
Re:why??? (Score:5)
Maybe if Microsoft was more honest with itself (and it's customers), and made a good-faith effort to improve the quality of it's products we wouldn't come down so hard on them.
Microsoft would have quite a few more friends here if they just came clean and said "we made a mistake, and here's what we're going to do to fix it", rather than spreading FUD around.
As the old saying goes, what goes around comes around.
--
Re:why??? (Score:3)
I know this will piss alot of people off....let the flames begin....
Re:This should be displayed somewhere where PHB's (Score:2)
*Microsoft* was unable to solve the problem. Their ultimate answer (after having a ticket open for six months) was that FoxPro is not designed for this kind of use!
No FUD. No bullshit. Just the facts. Microsoft software sucks.
I have *never* seen a UNIX or Linux box behave similarly.
--
Interested in XFMail? New XFMail home page [slappy.org]
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
http://www.ci.st-george.ut.us/sgpd/geninfo/email.h tm [st-george.ut.us]
I wonder if slashdotting a police web server is a crime? ;^)
So, it looks like this might be the real thing, but I agree with the basic concern: the verification bar on Slashdot right now is pretty low.
The other day, that IETF draft that claimed to have expanded the IPv4 address space was a good example of something that I would have been quite happy never to have heard of - a pointless waste of time. If the initial article had mentioned that it was either a hoax or just plain confused, I wouldn't have bothered to try to read it. Posting such things on Slashdot only lends them undeserved legitimacy and exposure.
Story verification (Score:5)
Without proper verification, this story would not have run. Period.
Robin "roblimo" Miller
roblimo@slashdot.org [mailto]
Re:Sorry, I'm suspicious (Score:2)
Re:Why it's sooo hard for this stuff to happen.... (Score:2)
No no, see, the PHB wants to be able to tell his boss that its "Someone elses problem". Actual liability is somewhat of a farse in a life or death situation unless you have software specifically written for that purpose. Which, in this case, they didn't before, and they don't now.
Windows NT in the public safety field (Score:2)
I was dismayed at the number of dispatch systems, mobile computers, and radio setups that used Windows NT (or worse yet, 95/98) as the core. I saw about 3 vendors selling Unix (Solaris) solutions, and if there was a Linux box there (other than my laptop) I didn't see it.
The reason is a matter of demand: Most shops want stuff that works under Windows, and anything else does not compute. This is due to ignorance.
The solution is the same for this as anywhere else: ask for Linux/Unix versions of the code. If the radio programming software only runs under Windows, ask the radio manufacturer to port the code to Linux. If the test equipment only speaks to Windows, ask the manufacturer to port to Linux. If the dispatch software runs under Windows, ask for a port. If the mobile data unit runs Windows, ask if it will run Linux.
If enough shops ask for Linux support, it will be granted.
#include
The views expressed in this post are my own, not my employers. I am employed by a company that makes test equipment for police radios. Personally, I'd love to have customers asking for Linux support! It'd show the marketing people I know what I'm talking about!
(B.T.W. the APCO homepage is http://www.apcointl.org [apcointl.org])
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
(Likewise the other person who claimed to have called the published non-emergency number could be lying.)
Or maybe the building really holds a "police station", but it's a front set up by the rabid penguin horde. Ditto the web page set up by the department.
Hell, the entire town of St George could be a potemkin village set up by the linuxheads!
:-)
Rampant paranoia is fun, unless they're really out to get you (re: the seized computers thread). But somehow I get the feeling that the original poster who expressed fears about the "new media" is also someone who believes everything he reads in the paper or sees on the evening news.
Re:Not a good idea! (from a non-morman in Utah) (Score:2)
Re:Discovering validity of news reports (Score:3)
For All You Doubters... (Score:2)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99/08/27/16412 23&threshold=0&commentsort=0 &mode=thread&pid=8#72 [slashdot.org]
Tell a man that there are 400 Billion stars and he'll believe you
I'm glad to see SOMEONE has some sense... (Score:2)
The Fire Department in a nearby city (St. Albert) uses software called "Crysis" for their 911 dispatching, which until recently, ran on QNX.. well, it seems in their infinite wisdom(?), Crysis has decided to switch over to Windows 98!
Hmm, now does this give anyone else here chills? I mean, think about if this happened in YOUR town... would you trust your emergency services?
I'm just glad that I don't live there.
Re:hmmm. (Score:2)
On a broader note, how does "new journalism" validate the things it reports on?
On a yet broader note, how does "old journalism" validate the things it reports on?
Here in Appleton, WI, the local media sucks. The local paper, the Post-Cresent, can't seem to get the facts straight if they were handed to them. The times i've had any first hand account of a story they're reported, i've become nautious reading their report. I suspect just as much distortion happened with the national news, although its reported with better intro music, 3d graphics, and remote corresponders.
What validates the "new journalism" is not the journalism itself. Its the fact that more viewpoints are accessable and the reader decides which viewpoint is valid. While this may produce many viewpoints that are not worthwhile, it can produce viewpoints more worthwhile than the original news report.
When was the last time that Dan Rather asked you to think for yourself?
Re:A suggestion to prevent this kind of nonsense (Score:4)
1. Validated first-hand (by "author")
2. Validated by submitter
3. Validated by submitter (with author's doubts)
4. As posted elsewhere
5. Validated by web presence (thus with doubts)
6. Unverified
7. N/A (for things like funnies)
etc.
Re:why??? (Score:3)
Wisely or not, many people here feel they are the unpaid Linux marketing department. To some degree I think this is true and a good thing. Like you though, I'd like to see more comments from people who have real world examples and deep experience in both systems, rather than people who are just cheerleading or bashing. To be fair, Microsoft is fairly repetitive and content-free too
The other thing you have to realize is that there really is a lot of anger at Microsoft. Being a user of their software since 1982 (DOS 1.0), I think it's fair for me to say that a lot of this anger is justified. If people feel calmer after a little venting, it may even be worth the bandwidth lost to noise.
I think this article is a good example of what I'd like to see more of. Even if its biased, its a real example, and it brings up something well worth thinking about -- the reliability of life critical software.
Jim