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A Bit About Freshmeat 289

Posted by CmdrTaco from the support-for-people's-hard-work dept.
<RANT> So a good friend of mine works really hard on his web page. He overhauls the thing to create a new look and feel for it. He ads tons of user interface improvements and in general makes it faster, smoother, and better looking. He put it up today and got his ass flamed for all his hard work. This guy works long hours, he doesn't get paid a nickel for his work. And the world thanks him by insulting him. You don't have a right to flame people for changing their websites. Besides, not all change is bad. Sit back and give it a chance. And while you're at it, a huge number of you owe scoop an apology. He's created one of the best sites on the internet, and he never charged any of you a nickel for his uncountable hours of work. Flames are not the way to say thanks to someone who creates something so great and never asks anything in return. </RANT> Update: 01/02 12:08 by S : Freshmeat's back up.
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A Bit About Freshmeat More

A Bit About Freshmeat

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  • hey, if you don't like freshmeat THEN DON'T GO THERE. You have no right to flame him for all the hard work he put into the site and working on something he thought would be good for everyone (which it is). The new layout rocks...
  • Rob, I'm in full agreement with you about FM. It is one of the best sites on the net (next to /. of course).

    I found the new look to be downright cool.

    --Aaron Newsome
  • Face it, the new layout kick ass! ;)

    This site honours the Linux community with it's content and hard work. I agree with most of the comments posted earlier, flamers are just people in need of desperate attention, after all, everyone was on shock (in a positive way) after seeing it.
  • I saw, I liked.

    I appreciate sites that render well from lynx which I use a lot when admining non-X Linux boxes. The new site also looked good and loaded fast in Netscape. He made a lot of improvements to the site from the brief look I got. Most of the pages had become static which I think is essential if you intend to allow for growth.

    I read the first ~70 comments here and everyone apperently likeed the new site also. It's unfortunate that scoop reacted the way he did, he must have received a lot of extremely insulting emails.

    My one comment is this: FM is a very popular site. Perhaps it's time for scoop to start making money with this. I remember reading when linux.org was having problems that the site owner was earning $500-$600/day from the site. I would think that freshmeat must have some good earnings potential also.

    I don't like advertising banners and book sales all over sites but if that's what it takes for scoop to make a buck at it, please do it! A new sendmail release ... automatically link to the bat book @amazon. Working yourself to the bone for nothing gets disheartening, especially when the critics start to attack.

    Anyway, FM is a very valuable and well built site. Somehow, we gotta get this guy earning bucks at what he does!!!
  • Freedom of speech has it's place. But it must be tempered with civility. As the above person stated, if it's rude flaming it can certainly tend to bring one's spirits down after all the work it would have taken to redo all of freshmeat's scripts.

    Criticism like, "You should put the search box at the top" is fine (I saw 3-4 or these in the comments on freshmeat, and it's a good point). But if it's something with foul language and words like "krad" it's just plain rude.

    Besides, Freshmeat (or Slashdot) isn't a branch of the US government, so they don't have to obey any sort of "freedom" of speech. :)
  • So, nice big talk there. Now, what the hell have you done for anyone today?

  • And you are just so full of respect.... which
    is brown and smells.... hang on, that's shit,
    you're full of shit.

    Now, what website do you run so we can flame you; the intangible benefits gained from it will more than make up.

  • Okay, totally off-topic, but this has been bugging me for a while. What exactly is a wanker, anyway?

  • Criticism is definitely a good thing, if it's done in a mature manner. I imagine Scoop got such intelligent mails as "you stupid fucker, i dont no what your thinking changing freshmeat. the old wone was l337 kewl krad and this one sux0rs." That's not exactly what I'd call constructive criticism.
  • Which presumes you know who the flamer is.

    There's a good bit somewhere -- off the EFF [eff.org] pages -- by one of the founders of the WELL, about the lessons learned from anonymous posting. It didn't work then.

  • hmm.. (Score:1)

    by sar ( 398 )
    I dont think i would have handled the flames as well as he did. The new look kicked major ass. Everyone I talked to thought it was a great look, and worked even better. Most likely, if I was in the same situation as him, there would have been a ton of flamers getting signed up for every mailing list I could get my hands on, and getting their names/email address posted to every newsgroup possible.
  • Freshmeat has no banners. Hits we provide don't pay bills. Scoop provides this service for us and
    gets back nothing. I think he deserves at least some respect. Yes, I liked black background better. But I think Scoop has a right to change it to any color that please him including hot pink.
    I hope he would still provide the great service and not listen to a few morons who make more noise than have brains or decency.

  • aww (Score:1)

    by drwiii ( 434 )
    come back scoop :(
  • Honestly, I agree that it's childish to flame someone for all their hard work.

    But on the same subject, it's just as childish to pull the site down in retaliation. I mean, honestly, if that's all it takes to get rid of such an awesome productive resource for the Linux community, Microsoft has got it made ...

  • Yup - end of story.

  • ... when I saw it. I had logged on earlier, seen the new format, and I, personally, loved the change! I was unable to peruse the site fully, so I decided to wait until tonight to give it a further look. I even e-mailed a friend about the new layout, in essence saying, "Hey, this is cool, come check it out!"

    Then I come back on tonight, and found... it. After taking a few seconds to fully comprehend what happened. I loaded up Pine and sent a e-mail to Scoop, to tell him at least one person appreciated what he did. From reading the rest of the comments here on Slashdot, it seems that I wasn't the only one.

    What about some of the people who didn't like it? Where are y'all? Would you like to give your reasons for disliking the new style, as well as what exactly you said to drive Scoop to this? Please, I'm sure a lot of us here would love to hear what you had to say...

  • The OSS movement is a family when one of is hurt the rest are as well.
    I think maybe anyone who flames an OSS website, the original email and full email address should be posted. Dont greave alone Scoop. Give us his email address and we can bring the PAIN. If he wants to assault one of the greatest OSS web sites, then at least let the OSS community express there FEELINGS about the matter to him.
  • I agree that flaming somebody for their hard work is uncalled for, but at the same time, you can't stifle criticism. If somebody really didn't like the new layout, they have a right to criticize it, even if scoop spent a long time working on it. If the criticism is constructive, then it can lead to a change in the layout which makes more people happy. Either that, or scoop can choose to ignore it and do whatever he wants -- it's his site after all, and chances are that people won't stop reading it, even if they do hate the layout. Most people will probably get used to it after a week or so anyway, so the best option would probably be to change the things that really annoy a lot of people, and ignore the rest until people get used to it and stop complaining.
  • Unfortunately with the greater influx of people into the Open Source/Free Software community, this is what we have to deal with. People in the community used to be very intelligent. I harken back to the earlier days of Slashdot - back about a year ago - when all we saw were intelligent posts, helpful posts, people willing to help no matter what. Now we get First Posts, and flamebait, and everything else. Bruce is right - we just have to develop a thick skin, I think. Ignore the morons and continue to fulfill our own goals - because that's what we're in it for.

    More of my thoughts are available on woot.net [woot.net].

  • This worries me. A lot. It seems more and more that our so called Open Source community is NOT scaling well at all. What seems to be working so well with small group of people is turning into a mass of screaming crap swarming everywhere without any direction.

    This is not the first time this has happened. It wasn't too long ago that Bruce Perens was ranting about some of the same things Scoop is complaining about. I just got done reading all the shit ESR is taking here in a piece he wrote for our enjoyment. It makes me ill.

    If this continues on like this as our community grows larger, the core people will slowly fade away and we'll be left with nothing. There are so many people that put so much of their blood, sweat and tears into all of this without any thought of getting anything back. More and more there are a bunch of leaches that only know that Linux is some kind of warez thats legal!

    Please read A usenet Rant [eyrie.org] for some of the best writing i've ever seen on something similar to this. Usenet is dying a slow and painful death and I can't remember the last time i read alt.*. Its all so full of spam its worthless.

    If we aren't careful the so called Open Source movement will end up the same way. Maybe its time to go back to the Cathedral, because the masses out in the bazaar are rioting without any control, running amok in the stalls stealing and breaking all the samples.

    If any of you are out there listening. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. ESR, RMS, Linus, Alan, CmdrTaco, Scoop, JWZ, Bruce and all the others... You have made something truly great and I hope you are never discouraged. Someday I hope I can repay all of you for your hard work and give back to the community you started.

    Thanks,
    Matthew I. Michie

  • It's not a *constructive* part of web life, but it is a part of it. No matter what you do, someone is almost bound not to like it. Furthermore, there are a lot of people on the Internet who are just plain rude. These two things interact badly, and you either let it get to you, or you ignore it like the stupidity it is.

    The Web can be a mean and nasty place, and it is full of malcontents and anonymous fools. We just have to live with it and move on.

  • There's more than enough room for both Freshmeat and Xshare. Yeeesh! Good-bye FreshMeat, Hello XShare? Where's the sympathy? Where's the appreciation for scoop's hard work?

    Man, you are cold!

  • Posted by hrearden:

    Many people that post on this site believe that THEY own other people's work. Some think that "those who can should provide those who need". No wonder.
  • Posted by Surfer971:

    Well all you idiots that complained, YOU HAPPY!? Thanks you little shitbags for ruining it! That was the best damned site to turn for linux software and these whiners blew it! Thanks a friggin lot
    yours truly
    - Surfer971
  • Posted by Anhydrous Cowboy:

    So, what did the site look like before he took his crayons and went home?

    I mean, I've never had MY best effort publically criticized by do-nothing, know-nothing idiots before... I wonder what THAT must feel like....
  • Posted by VegaC:

    Now, I think something must be up, because there are 51 posts as I'm writing this, all in favor of freshmeat's new design (which I must say looks rather cool.) Could it be that the flamers don't want to post, because Rob may post their addie's and they'll be flamed? Nahh, I'm sure they're not afraid, they're just umm, gone, ya that's it, right?

    Now, I didn't know scoop, but from what I hear, it would've taken a LOT of flames to piss him off, and he is rightfully so. In a way, I hope he doesn't put freshmeat back up. It would show people that you can't complain about what you don't pay for. Something the people in the OSS world must learn.

    Anyways, I applaud those of you who stick up for scoop, and to scoop, if you're reading this...
    well done

    -Vega
  • Posted by _da5id_:

    Hey all...

    To the flamer of freasmeat I can say only one thing: "Do not speak, unless you have something to say!"


    Btw. I think the new Freshmeat look is very stylish...
  • Posted by K8_Fan:

    What would they flame? I'm as picky about HTML as anyone alive, and I love the it's look, especially about how Lynx-friendly it is. Good usage of StyleSheets, the site scales wonderfully to different resolutions, it's screamingly fast with few gratituious graphics...if only more "designers" would emulate scoop's method of design. This isn't brown-nosing, as I don't even have a Linux box set up yet, so I've never needed to use FreshMeat.

  • Posted by hrearden:

    I was wondering if anyone would get the paraphrase
  • Posted by neuralfraud:

    You've got to be insane to actually consider flaming the new design on freshmeat.net
    its light, and clean, and it looks neat. thats how all pages should be, all these elite heavy graphics that if you dont have a t-1, take 8 minutes to load sites, are annoying.

    I say good work.
  • Posted by hrearden:

    I dont recall Ayn ever making any statements like that. What I know is that her writing predict the outcomes of most "new-deal" type social contract. My original point was that the additudes on the site promote the idea that some people have the right to other peoples property, and can therefor "Flame" a website owner if they dont like what that persons property has become.

    And please sned me any information on Rand's dismissal of Relativity. I have disagreed with her before.
  • Posted by Deus_X:

    This is my first post to Slashdot... the Jon Katz article on lurkers, along with this, just tweaked my thresholds, so I had to respond...

    Something I've noticed in a lot of the messages complaining about Scoop & his "childish" response to flames is this sort of indignance... "You owe us. We made you who you are. It was easy. We can break you, and make someone else. Expect the flames, they're your dues. You should apologize to us for our inconvenience."

    "You owe us..." So you visit a site, even contribute now and again. Where does that give you even the slightest justification to think you own the place, or even come to think that the site's owner is privledged to be seen by you?

    "We made you who you are..." Ahh, here I think is the perceived slight: "We" provide the content-- and the service of organizing, hosting, collecting, and presenting the content is irrelevant, no? "We" even provide the eyeballs-- without us, there'd be no reason to have a site, right?

    What a great act of charity you've done, expending the vast reserves of your armchair energy to grace his URL with a click. Now, say you're more than just a lurking visitor-- say you've actually contributed. Never mind how small a percentage of the site's visitors that is (or the likelyhood that you're not one of them)... So you contributed. Is there a debt to you from the site's owner now? I see that as highly unlikely, seeing as it's the least you could do, after all your time reaping the benefits of his service. Granted, a thank you from the site's owner would be nice, but that's just courtesy-- if you've been using his service, and you've never given anything back, you owe him one.

    "It was easy..." What?! Anyone with an FTP server can do this? Then go right ahead and do it better. Don't bitch until you have. Then, maybe, just maybe, you'll know exactly what it takes. Maybe you'll see just how much goes into that "insignificant" work of facilitating an organized flow of information for a community. You go ahead and take the time to read & write volumes of email, site updates, pour through submissions from contributors, keep up to date. You see how long your site lasts if it's "just an FTP server."

    "We can break you, and make someone else..." I see a lot of "we"'s being bandied about... Who's this we? YOU. You are the only one you can talk about. You don't like the site, stop using the service. It's that simple. You think the site owner's a whiny bastard-- stop benefitting from his efforts. Enough people think that, then maybe you get your show of "we" power to "break" him. And you want to make someone else? Visit their site. Come on, exercise that armchair power of choice.

    "Expect the flames, they're your dues..." I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people taking this position have no clue what they're talking about. If you believe this, can you honestly say you've ever done something major for any group of people? If you can say this, can you then honestly say that you expected to have it thrown back in your face, be spat upon, and like it? Even if it wasn't the entire group of people, even if it was only a few-- do you think that'd make you feel all warm and fuzzy? And then, on top of it, to be told later that you should expect such behavior as your just dues?

    "You should apologize to us for our inconvenience..." This I can really relate to-- you don't know how many times I nearly sprained my mouse finger today with extra clicks searching for files I used to find all in one spot on Freshmeat. And God(dess) forbid if it's rumoured the man's making money from his endeavors... (whether he really is or not) that makes him evil, evil, evil. And thus we can treat him anyway we want because he's "getting" something for all this. Bullshit. What makes any of us so important or so "owed" that we can consider the owner of a web site we frequent to basically be enslaved to us? How does it make sense that this person owes something to us and the community for the mere fact of our eyeballs or that we are the source of information for the site?

    Maybe it's jealousy-- you're not getting the attention, and maybe you're not getting any money, so you think you're owed something... why not from him? You helped get him there, didn't you? Granted, you didn't get up off your butt and design, program, launch, and maintain a useful site like that, but still... you clicked.

    Anyway, I've rambled for far too long. Kudos to Freshmeat for coming back, and on the new design-- it sounds like it was a lot of work. And kudos to everyone who came to his support. Now, I'll sit back and see if I'm noisy enough to get flamed. :)

  • Posted by bybell:

    This is why commercial Linux/packages distributions are necessary. When a product is released for money rather than positive publicity, the motivation to complete it is much greater.

    Valid points in the post above--pretty much nobody is indispensible in the net world nowadays. Someone leaving may cause a temporary hit, but like you say, you'll get "routed around" soon enough. Even someone as hardworking as an Alan Cox (to use an example).

    Anybody besides me remember the "war demos" on the Amiga where the crack groups were really slagging each other? Some were vicious. The one I remember the best was Skid row v. Angels where there was an animation of a large grinning devil having anal sex with a childlike angel. Granted, it was quite nasty, but it was an expression of criticism that someone felt necessary.

    What it boils down to is the fact that you can do a good job and somebody will be critical. Considering the reach of the net, it's bound to happen. It should happen. But at the sign of criticism (most likely from armchair CGI authors), it is childish to "take your ball and go home": A site is a "public place" so it's subject to public criticism. How would you act if this were for a magazine article instead? Scoop does do a lot of work. But just because he supports something we really like doesn't mean he's above criticism. And in that vein, there's nothing to stop him from coming up with a cynical "fan mail" and "!fan mail" portions of Freshmeat much like Howard Stern does on his radio show.

    Slashdot is filled with hypocrites. A lot of ACs screaming for a witchhunt are probably the same ones who write sophomoric "complaint" letters to pro-MS peoples and post them here saying "Look how clever I am." Grow up already and quit raising your pitchforks and shovels from behind an AC facade.

    And on top of it all, one could argue "Where's the Grassy Knoll?" Who's to say that Scoop isn't doing this as just some orchestrated Slashdot/Freshmeat psychological experiment? Don't believe everything you see on the net. I was sort of reminded of this last night when I listened to Orson Welles' Presentation of "War of the Worlds."

    Freshmeat's a great site, Scoop, but learn to grin and bear any abuse hurled your way. Being hated is part of being popular, you know. All being said, keep up the good work.

  • Posted by Rezidew:

    ...before I posted. I, too was beginning to think that Scoop was acting childishly, but after having
    read your well written and informative post I realize I have no right. I've never visited FM much to be honest, but I realize it's valuable to those who do. I'm sure the more I go there, the more I'll want to go back. Anyways, I'm very sorry to hear that all of this happened to you and your fiance, and Scoop. I don't think anyone should let this kind of thing continue to happen to them. Not
    having dealt with it myself, I don't have the insight that you do. I'm glad you provided me with some before I stuck my foot in my mouth. :-)

    Best of everything to ya...

  • Posted by VIiMprovedlon.crosswin:

    Apperently you are defending flamers, maybe because you ARE a flamer? Flamers are gay retards if they flame hard work done by other people.
  • For all those who didn't get to see the new freshmeat, here [gatech.edu] is a page I happened to save while looking at the new layout (I was curious about how the tables worked).

    Here is the email that I sent to Scoop. And to add to what I said in it, I hope all those that flamed him are forced to apologise for beeing so terribly rude.

    --quote--
    Scoop,

    I wanted to let you know that I thought the new site kicked major ass. Not all of us out there are as rude as those who would flame someone who contributes his time, unpaid, to provide a service to the community. Freshemat was (is?) a resource that I found very useful, and appreciated very much, however, if you feel that removing the site is the right course of action, I support you 100 percent. I probably would have done the same thing. Maybe it'll be a kick in the pants that makes the linux community as a whole grow up a little.

    Thanks for all your hard work,
    chap
    -- end quote---

  • uhm, I briefly saw the new design, but weren't there three little buttons on the bar which had the software name which linked to those things you mention?
  • Merit

    I'm sorry to hear you received some unfavorable feedback after
    introducing changes to your site. I'm afraid that I did not have the
    opportunity to see these changes myself; New Years actually managed to
    keep me away from my machines for a bit, and I missed its debut.

    This whole deal; Open Source, Linux, *BSD, multitudes of open source
    projects and commercial vendors playing catch-up, etc., is all about
    merit. The meritocracy is composed of those who put forth the effort to
    contribute results. You are one of those people. I am certain that
    those from whom the flames were received are not. I know this because
    contributing members of the meritocracy appreciate the talent and effort
    required to build such systems enough to withhold unbridled criticism
    when something, which is the result of hard work, is not precisely to
    their liking. The rest are useless trolls.

    I have always appreciated Freshmeat and admired the work being done. I
    can't tell you how many times I've come to Freshmeat looking for a
    solution to a problem that works in FreeBSD or Linux. Freshmeat is my
    first choice, every time. I have also noted that Freshmeat is
    significantly more reliable than some of it's contemporaries; I greatly
    appreciate that as I check your site regularly throughout my day.

    What has happened here is success. You are experiencing some of the
    downside to being successful in your endeavors. You have amassed such a
    large following of readers that a certain percentage are inevitably
    going to be loud-mouthed simpletons with too much time on their hands.
    Because of this success, I can guarantee you that every significant
    change you attempt from this point forward will always be accompanied by
    lousy feedback from these same boneheads. If you watch carefully each
    time, you will notice it remains confined to the same little group of
    knuckheads. I recommend that you ignore them. If you feel compelled to
    respond to this sort of feedback, the best response is 'Do better or
    shut-up'. If they do then perhaps they have a point (i.e. merit). They
    won't.

    As for myself, I miss Freshmeat. I look forward to seeing the results
    of your hard work and I have no doubt that I will be impressed.

  • You should be ashamed of yourselves!

    - Jesper Juhl

  • Black gets old quick. Lookin' Good!
  • Could anyone who has seen the site sift through
    his/her browser cache and please put up a mirror.
    I would like to see how it looked.
  • The domain "freshmeat.nu" is still available, if someone
    wants to start a new site. Just my 2 cents.
  • This is yet another demonstration that flamewars and political infighting are the linux community's greatest weakness. We'll never achieve world domination if we keep killing each other. Kudos to Scoop for all his efforts so far, and Scoop, PLEASE DON'T LET THE TROLLS WIN
  • With freshmeat going down (for the time being), I put up a webpage w/ a searchable appindex script on it. It's no replacement for freshmeat (and isn't intended to be), though. It's at http://appindex.cjb.net [cjb.net].

    While I'm at it, I'd like to thank scoop for his work and dedication to freshmeat. I'd really like to see it come back up; it's one of the best sites out there.
  • Thanks. It's pointless now, however, since the Real Thing [freshmeat.net] is back up (woo hoo! and thank (insert religious entity here) and scoop).
  • Ok, I looked at the new Freshmeat this morning, and very much liked it. I noticed there were comments below, and I read over a fair number of them. Most people, much like myself, were complimenting him on the look. Other were raising some objections about what he'd done (renders slow, etc.), others like the old look better.

    I think I missed the flames, but I'd like to say that the criticisms that I did see were fair. Sure scoop puts in a lot of work for no reward, but that doesn't make him above criticism. If someone thinks the site could be better, let them send their advice in to scoop. If scoop wants to, he can listen to it, and maybe improve the site, or he can ignore it (I mean, he is doing it for nothing, so there's nothing stopping him from doing absoluting nothing).

    Maybe the flaming was bad and out of control. I don't know, because I don't think I saw it. Still, you have to know that people who do flame that bad don't deserve scoop's attention. This actually is a sad example of what Katz was talking about, with a few screaming flamers pushing everyone around, while the lurkers lose their freshmeat. Scoop needs to take a page from Katz, and learn to recognize the flamers for what they are: adolecent idiots who are desperately seeking attention.

    The irony of all this is that I didn't think Katz's argument was right. Talk about fate proving me wrong.
  • Agreed. Whats best is to make the letter seem like it was just filled out from a form and not personal at all. Then they think you didn't spend any time on it.:)
  • Those who can SHOULD provide those who need. I dont really see how you can relate that kind of mentality to some ungratefull flaming morons.
  • Freshmeat has been down for only few minutes on New Year's Day and you can say with a straight face

    "Ive (sic) seen (sic) loyal customers and contributers (sic) saying that they (sic) lost respect with (sic) FM"?

  • While freshmeat's new look doesn't appeal to me as much as the old one (that's totally subjective, of course, and I know that many others like it better), it still gets my points for showing how much work has been spent on it. So it's not fair to flame scoop for it. What should be said to all those disrespectful flamers is "take it or leave it". For me, fresmeat should stay as it is now; along with Slashdot, it is one of the better pro-OSS sites anywhere.
  • I personally JUST went to the FM [fresmheat.net] page to see what all the fuss is about-- I saw the new page and the first thought I had was, "This kinda reminds me of a Macintosh [apple.com], but what hey, it looks pretty cool with the little icons on the bottom of the section for posting."

    I can admit that I at first didn't like the new order of the site, but further reading on and noticing that scoop [mailto] added in a better search engine the only thought I has was "cool."

    I wish to personally apologise to scoop [mailto], but I have no e-mail address at the moment, so Scoop- if you just happen to read this,

    You do good work, and personally I wish you the best. I read freshmeat every day, because freshmeat is such a help to those of us who use Linux at home (and in the work force when our superiors don't make us infect Poor Erwin [userfriendly.org] with NT. and please, please, please bring freshmeat back.

  • I'd like to add my voice to those supporting Scoop.

    I feel that flamers have become a REAL PROBLEM. Constructive criticism is fine, but reading emotional rant after rant after rant is enough to get anyone depressed.

    The whole nature of the Free Software enterprise is collaborative, and volunteer based. Many participate because discussions with others broadens your horizons, teaches you something. Flaming is fundementally devisive and unconstructive.

    Those who say Scoop is behaving like a child should try out what it feels like to have your creation that you put your free-time into lambasted. If your hobby is not fun anymore you'll go and do something else, which will be a loss for the community.

    The new breed of "I deserve everything", "I don't want to understand how it works or learn anything -- you support me", "I don't agree with you moron" Free Software Users appears to me to be the biggest threat to the Free Software Movement. Statistically a country becomes xenophobic when 10% of newcommers do not integrate. What if your growth rate is exponential, your population is doubling each year, and the newcommers don't have the central credo (learn to fix it myself)?

  • Let me start out by saying I rarely use Freshmeat - my Linux box needs a new HD desperately, I'm almost out of room. But from my limited experience, it seems to be a good site, and a valuable resource, one I appreciate when I can make use of it (thanks, Scoop!). That said....

    IT'S HIS SITE!

    He could use red on purple, and not a one of us could stop him. If I used it a lot I'd write, probably privately, and suggest a different color scheme, but I would *not* be in my rights to *demand* a change. I haven't put the hours of work into it that he does.

    I've recently been in the middle of a flame war on the site I visit 2nd (after /.), and I hate to admit I lost my temper. There were people who had the *nerve* to tell the host he had no right to skip one movie and save his money for other movies due out in a week or two! Excuse me? Last I checked, the site was hosted by a US citizen and the server was on US soil. We have this tiny thing called the Bill of Rights. I'd suggest y'all go read it.

    Les the Book

  • My $.02 (Score:1)

    by Carey ( 2195 )
    I haven't seen the new layout, but I'm sure that it's better than no layout at all.

    This reminds me of a flame from a few years ago that you can read about on Eric Bina's webpage re: Motif vs Athena widget support in Mosaic.

    Same argument: people who get Internet stuff for free have no right to complain about it.

    I agree, however if you are in this business (hobby, whatever) and you change a popular product people are going to bitch.

    If you are expecting them to send you monetary donations in the mail and free pizza to your door, you likely aren't going to get it.

    There are way more people out there who love Freshmeat then those that are bitching and understand the work that is put into all free software/websites.

    For that sake, please bring Freshmeat back.

  • So I found out about all this crap when I pulled freshmeat a little while ago and got scoop's rant.

    I hope he'll put the site back up, and I hope he'll use the new interface. After all, if he spent such time on it, I can't imagine it being anything other than leaps and bounds beyond the previous interface (which didn't exactly suck, either). Besides, I haven't even seen the new one.

    That said, insert same content as Rob's rant here.
  • One: The links were still there, in the form of those little icons at the bottom of each blurb. Scoop should have put up a small box explaining these icons, granted, but they weren't too hard to figure out.

    Two: You don't get it. Form (interface would be a better word) is the most important aspect of a program, Web page, etc. The best program in the world is worthless if no one can use it; to well over ninety-five percent of the world's population pico is more powerful than vi or emacs because of this fact; they have never used any of these three programs but would be immediately be able to get to work in pico while at least ten minutes of poring over books/manpages/etc would be required just to figure out how to quit either of the other two, to say nothing of saving, searching, or any other function. Scoop tried to make his site more powerful by enhancing the interface, and he did a damn good job of it too (granted, I don't like the new logo but the old one would have been even worse in the new layout so it was good that he changed it). And you belittle him over a change that benifited you as much as it did everyone else. I find that disgusting.

    This said, I have two small suggestions for Scoop:
    1) Have a small box or bar at the top which explains the three little icons. They confused me for a minute or two, they evidently confused this guy even more, and they probably confused more than a few others.
    2) Change the logo. Not back to the old one; it was right for its layout but not this one. I'm afraid, however, I cannot help you in designing The Perfect Logo(tm) for the new layout. Perhaps a contest would be the wise way to go?

    These two criticisms voiced, I'm throwing my support wholeheartedly behind Scoop. Don't stay away too long, pal.
  • well he is still wrong and so are you! a large number of nick users flame too, it's just easyer to blame the AC's for it because you only have to remember the one name. do the research and you will see it for your self.

    I did. Most flames are posted by people going under the AC alias.

    i wont even get into the fact that alot of nick users prolly drop their nicks when they flame.

    You're probably right, but they're AC's when they do that nonetheless. With one exception: those people, who have their own nicks but not the guts to put them behind their arguments, are the real cowards.

    Come to think of it, why are you flaming me? I never meant to offend anybody. I was just stating that most people who flame are AC's, not that all AC's flame. And I do count nick users who drop the nicks to flame as AC's; those people certainly have the "coward" part of it right.
  • ok. how can anyone complain about the new freshmeat? did the flamers see it? it was the best thing since sliced bread. if any of you explored the site a bit, and looked around it, you would have found tons and tons of new and awesome stuff. i almost fell over in my chair when i saw it and looked around. could someone please please tell me what they thought was wrong with it? the only thing i saw people suggest was that the search box be near the top more. thats it, just a suggestion, which im sure scoop was going to implement soon.

    please guys, please. what is going on here? have people lost their minds because it is 1999? each and every one of you spammers or whoever, take a good look at yourself, and just think about whats going on. :(

    --
  • Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
  • It doesn't matter what his intent was. The fact is his comment was both offensive and demonstrated his immense ignorence. I didn't read the rest of his post because i ran into that line. Being offensive isn't the way to get people to listen to you, even if you don't mean it.
    --Michael Esveldt
    "Here I stand with all my lore -

    poor fool, no wiser than before"
  • I didn't prefer the new look of freshmeat at first. But the second time I looked at it it looked nice. I really think it was stupid of all the people who flamed scoop. It's not your site, so if you don't like it just SHUT UP and go away.

    Mike.
  • Any idiots who think they are clever enough to attack the webmaster of one of the greatest sites on the Internet should be killed immediately.

    I like new FreshMeat interface, very nice and clean. Great job!!
    Unfortunately there are idiots in every place of Earth.... :-(

    Scoop, you do a great job, we all owe to you!

    Happy new year!
  • Back when I ran a BBS, we used to call these people "ruggies". They're not unique to the Linux/Free Software community, they've been with us for ages. Go through all the time, trouble, and expense to put up a BBS, and all they do is complain and try to tear you down. I saw many sysops get fed up with it all and take their systems down. I fully sympathize with scoop, I did the same thing myself once or twice. Sometimes it just doesn't seem worth putting up with. The important thing to remember is that the ruggies are not a majority, or even a significant minority. They just make so much noise that sometimes it seems that they are. They want nothing more than to see others fail, don't let them win by giving in. Thanks for all your work, scoop! Keep the faith...

    --
    Starting reality daemon: realityd

  • Pay no attention to whiners, we all love freshmeat. The time has come to take out the garbage. Garbage being the whining, loud MINORity.

  • Its truly a shame that nit-picking jerks with a complaint don't hesitate to hurl insults, whereas(bold tags) people who appreciate someone's toil keep their mouths shut.

    Admittedly, I read freshmeat every day, yet I've never sent off an e-mail saying "Great Job" or "Couldn't make it through the day without it". I suspect that I'm not alone.

    I see four options...

    1. If you don't like FreshMeat, good for you, get a job or something.
    2. If you have ever shown this guy any appreciation, my hat is off to you.
    3. If you love FM half as much as I do, say something about it.
    4. If you depend on FM, but still choose to bite the hand that feeds you, try counseling.

    void rbowles(int sig)
  • This would work if the people who were flaming him would be hurt by this. But those people won't be hurt as much as the majority of users who use freshmeat as an excellent source of information.
  • The new interface looked really nice. The old one was getting...well old...It's scoop's site...let him do what he wants with it...and as far as I'm concerned he's been doing a great job. I would hate to loose freshmeat. Great Job Scoop...Keep up the GREAT work. I hope you put the site back up soon... BTW: This in no way means that I don't think /. is also great :-)
  • I usually only hit Freshmeat once a day after I get home from work.. I didn't even get to see the new layout -- instead I just see this grey rant page. Doh!
  • Unfortunately I've never had time to see the new layout as he has taken the site down for the moment due to the flames. I must admit I don't visit freshmeat as much as I should and often just use the summary links on slashdot to see if there's any new releases I'm interested in and I also use freshmeat to search for any software I want to download.

    Whatever form it takes it provides an extremely useful service and I'm sure this new look never removed any of the features the previous site had and perhaps added more functionality.

    Often once you're used to one layout it takes a while to adapt to the change but it's best to give it time before complaining and never be abusive just becasue *you* don't like it. There'll be many others who do like it so OK comment but don't be unreasonable.

    I think taking down freshmeat was a bad idea though because there is a possibility that is what the flamers really wanted and in effect giving into them although the volume of email being generated may have meant having to bring down the site just to curb the flow of email.
    --
  • Dear Patrick,

    When I first saw your message on the Freshmeat home page, I thought perhaps someone had perpetrated a sad hack, but then I saw the notes in LinuxToday and SlashDot...

    I hope you'll reconsider what appears to be the end of FreshMeat. You have done as much for the OpenSource community as Eric Raymond, Richard Stallman and Linus -- you have given everyone a place to see what's happening on a hourly/daily basis and to give measure to the speed and diligence of the OpenSource community in making constant improvements in what, like Freshmeat, is done usually as a labor of love, and a dedication to craft and excellence of workmanship.

    What you've done is wonderful, please don't let a collection of jackasses wear you down!

    If, in the end, you do feel that it's time to pack it in, and take a break from giving all the time, please know that there are a LOT of people, like me, who appreciate the time and effort you put into Freshmeat; you will be sorely missed...

    I hope to see Freshmeat on the air again, but whichever path you choose....

    Thank you (!!!) for all of your good work, and have a healthy and happy new year!

  • There's nothing like some sniveling littel prick hiding behind anonymity to talk about childishness.

    When you get a life and can tell us who you really are, then maybe someone will be interested in what you have to say. Better yet, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and contribute to the community instead of just taking...

    Until then, go back to your room and get back to the dirty books you keep hidden under your bed.

    Oh, and don't let your mommy know you were up this late or she'll spank you.

  • speaking of fscked up web pages...is linuxhq hacked or it just me?

  • Free software contributors have to contend with those who don't have the intellectual tools to make a positive contribution, so they make a negative one just to have their voice heard.

    I used to think I had a thick skin, but you need a really thick skin with this crowd.

    Bruce

  • All that happend was a site that you liked was taken down by the person who ran it for personal reasons. Freshmeat says nothing about OSS, it is just a service provided to us by someone who believes in our cause..

    Sites go down everyday for all types of reasons.. Same with commerical sites.
  • Well, the old site did look cooler, imho. This one's really, different. I like the logo, but the colors are so springtime! And it's still winter here. Just my two cents.
  • I agree that Freshmeat is a good site and scoop has put a lot of work into it. I like the new layout too.

    BUT...

    I wish he could tone down the large number of tables. Makes it fairly slow to reload.

    Otherwise, it's great, and I appreciate the help his site has given me.

  • Fools. (Score:1)

    by Elwood ( 4347 )
    If people dont like the look of a site, let them go else where. If they have such great ideas, let them use them on there own site. Only people that would have any rite to complain are the ones that paid for the site. I dont think anyone paid for Freshmeat.

    Elwood
  • Scoop,

    I've found freshmeat to be an invaluable resource, and until today it never occurred to me to thank you for it. So please let me take this opportunity to do so.

    I did see your changes this morning. My initial reaction was that I didn't think it was as visually appealing. However, I DIDN'T immediately send you flames, because I recognized that you had done a bunch of work on it, probably including features that I haven't even noticed yet. Besides, by comparison to either the old or the new look, my own web site is completely plain and ugly. Any sensible person realizes that the content is the important part, and IMHO you've always done a great job with both the content and the presentation.

    Please bear in mind that for every jerk that sends you flames and hate mail, there are probably thousands of people like me who have been and continue to be grateful for all your hard work. We just haven't been vocal about it, and we probably should have been.

    So please don't let the losers get you down.

    Best wishes for the new year!
    Eric

    [PS. Thanks to Rob, also, for all his efforts on Slashdot!]

  • I looked at the new layout and, frankly, I prefer the old one. However, I would never think of flaming Scoop. He put a lot of work in freshmeat and I'm happy he maintains it. I guess people who flamed him don't realize that he doesn't owe anybody to continue maintaining it, nor does he get any money from doing so. Flames (see the poll) are not acceptable. Constructive critisism + suggesstions are. So why don't we get the names of the flamers and point them out their mistakes, shall we?... :-)
  • Don't waste time reading flame e-mails.
  • Lots of assertions, but as yet not a clue in sight. Go ahead and provide the same service as Freshmeat. You won't because you don't have the time. Freshmeat is not one man's FTP space, it's more sophisticated than that.
    You assume that money pours into places like that, which is clearly barking mad. Notice how people like CT have other things to do like college? Maybe it is cos they DON'T make enough money to support themselves on the back of their web site and they need to get a job, hence a college degree, in order to live? You'll notice that there are no adverts on Freshmeat too.

    You'll notice Scoop never mentioned anyone other than flamers in his litle message, nor did he starve us of Freshmeat for more than a few minutes. If you're sensitive enough to feel so insulted by his actions then there is something severely wrong with you.
    Or did you actually do something worth insulting, like flame the new design?
    Either way you do aren't making yourself look very clever.
  • Notice the advertising? Of course you do. Show me the advertising on Freshmeat.
    I certainly didn't cite only Slashdot (despite my example-making) so my point still stands I reckon.
    of course there are plenty of others who run sites for free that aren't necessarily to do with this sort of thing and they spend lot of time on them too.
  • but the point is the people who actually enjoy it don't say thank you all to much. we take some things for granted. some guy at a comercial site get's paid money for this I could care less. scoop and rob both make a go at this for something a bit loftier and deserve something like a thank you once and awhile. just because the lurkers don't speak don't mean we're not here.
  • I think it sucks that scoop got so much flame mail, but at the same time, there are a few things on the side to be thought about...

    I think scoop is completely within his rights to do whatever he wants with his web site up to and including tanking it, putting up just one simple grey rant page, but something's sticking in the back of my head...

    As we read in so many jon katz editorials, people just have to have thick skin. Flaming people for putting in shit loads of FREE work is really weak, but at the same time, if I were scoop, I would have put that rant at the top of the new page, and with it a little note that says if you don't like it go ahead and TRY to find a site that kicks 1/5 as much ass as freshmeat.

    I don't really agree with the decision to yank the whole damn thing in favor of just one grey rant page, but it's his man, and you have to respect his choice.

    I REALLY HOPE THAT FLAMERS DON'T MESS UP FRESHMEAT.NET FOR THE REST OF US.

    To scoop: please understand by reading jon katz's articles that of the people that email you telling you that they hate the new UI, you're only getting 2% of all responses to the page. Trolls suck, but they're a part of the experience I guess you could say.

    Freshmeat.net kicks ass and if you don't like it, don't flame the guy who did it, but rather, shoot yourself. :)

  • try
    this from my cache [openix.com]
    i only pulled out the front page
  • Back when the word "gay" was still a new way to say "homosexual" in polite company (and another previously useful word, as was "queer", to be co-opted for sexual politics), "flaming" was slang for being "outrageously" "homosexual acting" but it didn't imply the "verbal roasting" that it currently does in e-mail, newsgroups, et cetera.
    Although I suspect there are a much greater number of homosexuals involved in the computer biz than many others would believe(or want to) I'm more inclined to believe that the current meaning of "flaming" did not evolve from the old one.
    _After the opinion, a question_
    Now that "gay" has been in use for so many years that its original meaning is probably lost forever("don we now our gay apparel" had nothing to do with cross dressing)has it become the new way of saying "queer"? Instead of being a "no implication of positive or negative" way of saying homosexual, has it become the new pejorative? And is it progressing from meaning "homosexual, and that's a bad thing" to just meaning "something bad and despicable" without sexual preference or orientation necessarily having anything to do with it?

    (once the word "lame" only meant "one or more of your legs don't work right." The trouble with coding English for homo sapien compatible brains is that all your constants are variables.)
  • Social disconnectivity is a plague of internet communication and a plague to the linux comunity as it widely depends on the internet. That is what I feel is the cause of these idiots behaving irrationally. It's all to common and it's about time a major statement be made...RELEASE THE NAMES!!!
  • scoop certainly doesn't owe the linux community anything -- we owe him, for putting up and a much-needed service just in time for the linux mass-media explosion, then continuing to refine it with countless unpaid hours. scoop's unheralded work is similar to many major contributors to the linux community over the years. scoop's decision to turn off freshmeat in response to unfavorable email leaves me wondering two things on the freshmeat meltdown and linux community:
    1. stability? what other linux community services are subject to disappearing when their creator/maintainer has a bad email day? in the big picture of linux advocacy it shows a scary achilles heel (weakness) when one of the information hubs of a major Internet phenomenon can be closed down by hurt feelings. alternatives for solving community gripes may be preferrable to highly visible linux web sites going on strike like this. will be interesting to see if the news.com and wired type sites cover this incident...

    2. language? i have corresponded with scoop briefly 2-3x and recall he is in germany (true?) is there any chance that this scoop is not only being harrassed, but having to wade through a number of carelessly worded attacks that lose everything but their nasty tone in the translation to german language?

    hope everything can be resolved soon. i enjoyed the freshmeat redesign for a few hours before the entire site was yanked.
    --sean
  • Those Sons of *****es deserve a swift kick in the teeth. I am angry. I thoroughly enjoy Scoop and his site. It is one of the bright spots in an otherwise dull existance and of course /..
    How much you bet those flames cannot even read
    an html tag let alone write simple html. They don't deserve Linux. Maybe this is part of a well-planned FUD attack on Microsoft's behalf??
    Do you think I am Paranoid??

  • Who exactly had the balls to complain about this free service? Do any of these monkeys have the balls to 'fess up here and perhaps explain themselves?

    This crap really pisses me off. My apologies for the language. I just hate people that do this kind of thing. Long live Freshmeat!!! Bring it back, Scoop! Not all of us hate it! :P

  • Guys, chill out!
    It could be our good old friend M$, flaming Scoop; just to break the integrity of the community..got to be careful not falling for flames.
    SCOOP:
    Come on man, please please bring the sight back...I love the new look.
  • What I don't understand is the concept that some people have that the website is no longer owned by someone if it becomes popular. It was scoop's website, granted he took the chance that people might dislike his work, but it is NOT the communities web site, it is HIS. To all of the people that work their asses off on a site, and then go unapreciated, I apologise.
  • Subject says it all...
  • I want the names of all the flamers, so I can hire some goons and go get Them. Anyone who wants to donate torches and pitchforks, let me know... All /.ers are invited to join in.

  • yeah >-D

    Whahahaha >-)
  • What about one big textfile in which all us
    freshmeaters can show the appreciation
    about freshmeat which we have never spoken
    out?

    Let's try to be a community for once again :-(
  • I love the new look! Looks more professional to me (just my opinion)...
  • hmmm... read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand -- see what happens to the incompetent and those who succor them!
  • Hey, I'd like to voice my support for Freshmeat. I don't care what it looks like, as long as it continues to provide the exemplary service has for so long. I have no doubt that this will be the case. Freshmeat and Slashdot are my main sources for Linux software and info, and I think those who can't be positive about any changes to Freshmeat should seriously think about the time and effort the site has saved them. Positive criticism is fine, but flaming just lets the whole community and open source ethic down. I remember being similarly ashamed during the KDE/Gnome wars. Common people, we are only helping the FUD mongers!

    Espressoman.

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