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New Cross Platform Alternative To DirectX
Posted by
timothy
on Fri Apr 14, 2000 10:15 PM
from the cross-platform-cross-fertilization dept.
from the cross-platform-cross-fertilization dept.
BlackVomit writes: "
There's a bunch of companies such as 3dfx, 3Dlabs, ATI, Compaq, Discreet, Evans & Sutherland, IBM, Intel, S3, and SGI that have formed a special interest group called Khronos to design a cross platform API for graphics, video, and audio. This is very cool, as it could be a huge leap for gaming on Linux as well as all platforms that choose to implement the API. Imagine games that work seamlessly on Winders as well as Linux/Unix, BeOs, Mac, etc. I am somewhat surprised that nVidia isn't in on this.
" Let's just hope they work with the other open-standards projects for these things. The promise of a "an industry wide, non-proprietary approach" just screams out for it ...
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New Cross Platform Alternative To DirectX
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Don't forget about the wonderful, miraculous SDL (Score:3)
OpenGL and OpenML (Score:3)
OpenGL runs on pretty much all desktop systems. (Can anyone think of a system that doesn't have OpenGL?)
At least Khronos is doing The Right Thing (tm) and using OpenGL as a base for OpenML. OpenGL is a nice clean, and othogonal API unlike that bastard child called Direct3D. (DX = 6 revisions in 4 years? Yeah, thats a good design! NOT.)
I'm kind of curious as to why OpenAL or SDL doesn't fit the bill here?
http://www.lokigames.com/development/ [lokigames.com]
At least they have enough "big names" that this might actually take off.
<rant>
Unlike all the developers that SOLD OUT to M$ with Direct3D. As a 3D programmer I'm still upset that everyone let M$ shove down our game programmers throats wheter we wanted it or not.
</rant>
SDL does just this (Score:5)
I cannot remember all of the operating systems and platforms it compiles and runs under, but let's just say that it allows you to interface with TWO renderers under both Windows AND Linux, plus OpenGL and OpenAL support. Also, it is endian-portable, as it works on the Mac as well.
It also supports all of the other major facets of DirectX: DirectInput, DirectSound, oh wait, that's about all the other major facets.
About the only benefit that I can see from this new API is a unified driver programming interface. Right now, SDL interfaces with renderers elsewhere. This means many different types of drivers must be programmed in order to have your hardware work cross platform a'la SDL.
PS. SDL is lgpl'd.
Re:nVidia + Microsoft? (Score:5)
Back then, the choice in API's were similar to today's. 3dfx had Glide, it was the most popular. Next up was OpenGL, but it was pretty much just a fringe thing. The only company using it was id with GLQuake. Why? Well John Carmack didn't want to get locked into Glide because it only did Voodoo. The alternative was the then AWFUL Direct3D. DirectX was around versions 2 or 3 and it was bad. John Carmack slammed it in many a
So nVidia is trying to break into this market, but they can't without a good API. Glide isn't an option. Microsoft didn't like this, they didn't control the market leading API. Thus was born a marriage made in hell. There were many nVidia hosted graphics/gaming development confrences, all sponsored by MS.
The X-Box is just MS's way of giving nVidia the nod after all this time. This is why the TNT drivers have been so poorly maintained, and one of the reasons real lowlevel specs for the TNT aren't available to the Open Source world.
I could go on about why I don't like nVidia, mostly due to their marketing practices, but I won't. I will say that you won't find an nVidia card in my machine. Vote with your dollars.
first on-topic haiku (Score:5)
not just on bill's piece 'o crap
let's hope this happens.
Re:first on-topic haiku (Score:4)
directx part of windows!
won't work without it!
First Significant Thought Out Post(maybe) (Score:4)
I mean, with the intent of the API, it could very well <em>exist</em> under every platform out there... but someone has to implement it. I expect to see this firstly on Windows machines, since all the companies seem to have big investments in the Windows world.
Essentially, this looks like OpenGL++, with extensions and support for video, sound, and more interaction and synchronization details. So Linux won't have it, unless there's a workalike(think MesaML or something)
I would wonder if the API is open source and available, but relies on the individuals involved to provide closed binary level compatibility? There's nothing saying that this is a great thing for consumers... what this is, is a great thing for developers and companies that sell hardware, to no longer be tied or controlled by Microsoft or any other organization.
Now, if all these corporations adopted Linux or BSD or something like that and produced a <em>reference</em> implementation, the way Sun produces a reference Java, or SGI did a reference OpenGL... But I fear, for market acceptance, that we will see a reference implementation under Windows.
Keep our fingers crossed!
-AS
Re:Several already exist... (Score:3)
My computer should be blazingly fast. But it's not. GTK apps are sluggish. KDE/QT apps aren't so much better, but they do seem less sluggish.
I've even gone so far as to recompile XF86 with pgcc, using maximal, Pentium Pro optimizations.
X is slow, GTK is slow, and Linux is fast. It's somewhat annoying. Usually I don't mind it, because I think GUIs are for dorks who never learned the command line. But it's hard to play anything more graphical than NetHack using the console...
Nice start, maybe... (Score:5)
1) Don't just go after video/audio! Many game developers use DirectX not for the wonderful (ahem, *sarcasm*) APIs in Direct3D, but for the DirectInput and DirectPlay APIs. That way they know that people will be able to use their new "Force Feedback Webcam Modem Ultra Joystick With Added Internet Buttons" with their three week old game that wasn't coded for it.
2) Update the release often to support new technology, but try to keep the APIs from getting beat to death. This is a fine line to tread of course, but it is one that Micros~1 has partially succeeded at. Most game players don't mind upgrading DirectX, since it can result in better performance in games they already have, and it's on their game CDs anyway. The chief problem with DirectX is that the Direct3D API is *very* ugly. Memo to Micros~1: it's bad enough to version your function calls with "Ex", but please don't append numbers to them! Memo to the media: you all seem to believe that games make kids kill other kids. Is it possible that these kids happened to come across the Direct3D API, read it, and flipped out? Investigate! Maybe we can use some filtering software to keep the kiddies from seeing the Direct3D API on the web.
3) In spite of #1, the only performance anyone cares about is the 3D. Go look for reviews on how many giga blams (gb) per second you can get out of a sound card in EAX vs. A3D. I bet you won't find much. While good APIs are invaluable to developers, they won't use your APIs unless you can at least provide comparable performance to the competitor. I know, the APIs don't theoretically dictate performance, but in reality, the design choices of the API can have a serious effect on the ability to incorporate future performance gains due to the latest hardware techniques.
Anyway, that's all I can think of for right now. Hope it becomes a reality! It'd be great for Linux, but what it will really be best for is the future OS that none of us have even dreamed up yet, that will be able to have support for games sooner due to some standard APIs.
Don't get caught in wishful thinking (Score:4)
This is not going to work... if it appeared three, maybe four years ago, they did stand a chance of success, but now the DirectX team has handled practically all of the developer's complaints about it (well, maybe except for the function names like CreateDirectXSurfaceCoveredWithTinyDotsAndALittle
What's the developers' incentive to use OpenML instead of DirectX (except for "cuz windoze sux" and "cuz bill gates is satan")? Game publishers just stare blankly when you mention the possibility for non-Windows versions of a game. And if doesn't catch up in games, it will always stay a niche technology (as, say, OpenGL before Carmack).
One more thing: who's missing from the list?
NVIDIA, who are the driving force in graphics hardware for the last year and most probably for the NEXT few years;
Apple, makers of QuickTime, a very sensible media architecture;
Creative, the largest (and now that Aureal has quit the game, the only) manufacturer of enthusiast-level audio chips;
SEGA, Sony and Nintendo - makers of the most widely spread "graphics, audio and video media devices"
Re:first on-topic haiku (Score:3)
I thought it's a games OS."
-- Comment in '02
__________
Clue - this doesn't sound like a game API (Score:3)
In the faq, they mention Windows Media and QuickTime as alternatives. I don't think this is like directx at all. I think this is for making and playing movies and such. (does anyone actually follow those links?)
Anyone checked out the bottom of the FAQ? (Score:3)
Here is the link to get you started: http://www.khronos.org/SIGFAQ.htm [khronos.org]
Do the names Khronos and OpenML have any significance?
Khronos is the Greek root word for time. As the specification tackles integrating different media types, a critical element is synchronization of the media. Open signifies a cross-platform, cross-OS, initiative. ML or Media Language, emphasizes the synergy with the existing OpenGL standard, and helps to amplify an industry wide, non-proprietary approach.
Well, that last part sounds like a ray of hope for getting an open source implementation going in Linux. But, it sounds like the license is still be hashed out.
Another interesting part of the FAQ:
Who will define and maintain the OpenML specification?
The Khronos Group will retain this responsibility as well as license and distribute the OpenML SDK and reference implementations.
Acutally, that is were it gets a little scary. It sounds like now they are a little confused about whether it will be close or not. Also in the FAQ it states that the project will incorparate QuickTime??? Maybe as a binary plugin or something. And if you really want to 'what if' you can start thinking/hoping/praying that Apple's going to open source that one again. But, don't anyone hold your breath.
Well, everyone cross your fingers that this will be open and take off.
This is NOT about 3d or games (Score:3)
This could be a good thing for support of those applications on Linux/BSD because if hardware vendors manufacture video cards, disk arrays etc to open published standard like this it will be much easier to write drivers. At the moment on the NT platform every maker of digital video cards has their own standard for accessing the video and streaming it to a disk array.
DirectX is NOT used in this market, it's a games API and apart from some sound editing applications it's not used in content creation packages.
One of the companies in the announcement is SGI and they are widely expected to come out with linux based high end 3d workstations sometime this year so I'd expect to see a Linux implementation of these standards although it may not be OpenSource.
Re:Don't get caught in wishful thinking (Score:4)
This is not going to work... if it appeared three, maybe four years ago, they did stand a chance of success...
You don't know that. All it takes is one big game to adopt it, say Quake or Unreal, for the next cross-platform release, and an API like this will take off. The absolute minimum that can happen is a lot of good work can be done that can be incorporated into Loki's SDL, which has already taken off IMHO.
Game publishers just stare blankly when you mention the possibility for non-Windows versions of a game.
Yes, and IT managers reacted the same way to Linux 2 years ago. My how things change. The Linux gamers base is now probably sitting around 10 million and doubling every year, conservatively. That's enough to get the attention of people who matter. Have you been in a retail shop lately? Linux games are on the shelves
Look who's on the list: 3dfx, 3Dlabs, ATI, Compaq, Discreet, Evans & Sutherland, IBM, Intel, S3, and SGI
Something good is going to come out of this, there's no question about it.
--
Re:first on-topic haiku (Score:3)
Poor silly moderators
But Senru [clubknowledge.com] they are
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