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Linux Business United States

Open Source in Oregon 125

Posted by michael from the smoke-filled-room dept.
Anonymous writes "MWVLUG's coordinator, Cooper Stevenson, has asked Linux Today to post this detailed history of events surrounding the battle to get open source software legislation enacted in the Beaver State in an effort to raise public awareness for the campaign."
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Open Source in Oregon More

Open Source in Oregon

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  • Justifying costs isn't strange, is it? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tage ( 14671 ) <tage&tbef,se> on Monday August 18, 2003 @06:01AM (#6721247) Homepage
    What's so srtange about having to justify paying for something, it being software or something else? I know I would like expenses paid for by my tax money to be justified.

    Support costs will be added no matter what. Why not justify the extra expense of licensing?

    • Re:Justifying costs isn't strange, is it? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18, 2003 @06:06AM (#6721264)
      Why not justify the extra expense of licensing? You mean, for a four year license, before the product is dropped so the parent corp can release the next version and demand relicensing?


      It's critical to divorce your processes from another corporations need for an income stream.

      • so the parent corp can release the next version and demand relicensing

        I wasn't aware that any demands were being made. True, products reach the end of their supported period, but that's all that that means - the original vendor no longer supports them. Depending on your exact needs, that may or may not be a problem. Certainly, I've not heard any reports of vendors demanding that you buy the latest version.
        • Microsoft is doing something like that. They're looking to phase out actual purchases of software (because they know the EULA can't be enforced on a sale, probably) and switch to licensing everything. One of the conditions of the license would be an expiry date. At this point, I think that's the date by which you must renew, or face large penalties when finally renewing. In other words, be good and pay every three years when we ask, or we'll soak you completely.

          There've been article about this upcoming cha
    • What's so srtange about having to justify paying for something, it being software or something else?

      Well, nobody pays for their M$ software anymore, everyone has a friend who has a friend who can burn him/her the latest Windows/Office/etc; I guess it is no longer considered normal to pay sw licences where applicable. Oh, wait, nevermind, that's not legal...
    • If I were a state employee who needed to travel as part of my job, should the state buy me a Mercedes because I'd be more comfortable with that as opposed to a Toyota?

  • What a surprise... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hittite Creosote ( 535397 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @06:06AM (#6721263)
    The fate of a law is once again more influenced by what lobbyists want than what is in the interests of the people.
    It may be one man, one vote, but that man is the picture of a dead president printed on green paper, and the more of them you have, the more votes you have.
    • One Man, One Vote...

      It may be one man, one vote, but that man is the picture of a dead president printed on green paper, and the more of them you have, the more votes you have.

      He's the man, he has the vote!

    • Re:What a surprise... (Score:5, Informative)

      by digitalunity ( 19107 ) <digitalunityNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Monday August 18, 2003 @08:23AM (#6721571) Homepage
      It's very sad considering Oregon, and Portland in specific, have very large IT infrastructure. And no jobs. We have exactly 1.9 trillion unemployed IS/IT consultants in Portland alone. I think keeping some of the money in our state instead of shipping it off to washington in boat loads is a great idea.

      Let's see: Create jobs. Save money. Why didn't anyone think of this a long time ago?

      As an aside, Oregon public schools use Linux probably as much or more than any other school district. They even have their own distro!

      • We have exactly 1.9 trillion unemployed IS/IT consultants in Portland alone.

        I thought it was a little less than that.

        • No, it probably is that much. Well...

          Lets see: Portland + Suburbs, ~1,000,000 people.
          Unemployment: 60,000 @ 6% unemployment rate
          IS/IT workers: 3,000 @ a measly 5%.

          I'm assuming with the way the portland job market is right now, that it is probably higher. Like 8-10% of workers are unemployed IS/IT workers. So, it could be as high as 6,000.

          So, the number might have been right. I probably just added too many zeros in my head when I posted. :)

      • Re:What a surprise... (Score:2, Informative)

        by dtfinch ( 661405 ) *
        Sadly, I know of $100,000 of tax money that went to buy a single custom Access database at $85/hr.
      • Even as one of those unemployed consultants, I still suspect you are exagerating.
      • We have exactly 1.9 trillion unemployed IS/IT consultants in Portland alone

        No you don't.
      • As an aside, Oregon public schools use Linux probably as much or more than any other school district. They even have their own distro!

        K12LTSP [k12ltsp.org]

    • If you were a politician would you rather make money or work for the people? If you make money you can keep it for the rest of your life. If you work for the people, they might reelect you if your opponent doesn't have more money.

      Ahh the beauty of capitalism.

  • A day in the life of (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Tyro ( 247333 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @06:38AM (#6721315)
    a citizen lobbyist.

    Interesting to see an amateur go up against a fleet of paid pros (BSA, MS, et al). It would be nice to see it work. You know, that whole account appeals to my root-for-the-underdog, iconoclastic, giant-killer streak.

    Just to pick a medical nit, however, he did misspell his medication... it's Vicodin, not "Vicaden" (changing a letter or two in a medication name could cause a medication error).

    • Re:A day in the life of (Score:4, Funny)

      by ultrabot ( 200914 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @07:42AM (#6721439)
      Just to pick a medical nit, however, he did misspell his medication... it's Vicodin, not "Vicaden" (changing a letter or two in a medication name could cause a medication error)

      Yet another peace of ammunition for anti-open source lobbyists - OSS supporters are junkies.

    • Re:A day in the life of (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Phroggy ( 441 ) * <slashdot3@ p h roggy.com> on Monday August 18, 2003 @09:11AM (#6721812) Homepage
      Just to pick a medical nit, however, he did misspell his medication... it's Vicodin, not "Vicaden" (changing a letter or two in a medication name could cause a medication error).

      He made a lot of other typos as well. Most confusing error was about halfway through:
      As I approached Sen. Atkinson's office I called to him, "Senator Atkinson," I said, "would you at least consider this legislation?"


      "I'll tell you what I'll do," he said, "if Senator Atkinson says it's okay, then it's okay with me--he's the tech guy.'"
      I'm pretty sure that should be:
      As I approached Sen. Beyer's office I called to him, "Senator Beyer," I said, "would you at least consider this legislation?"


      "I'll tell you what I'll do," he said, "if Senator Atkinson says it's okay, then it's okay with me--he's the tech guy."
    • The only time I've seen an amature lobbyist actually get results was when said lobbyist was a gorgeous blond in Sacramento -- but I guess it does prove that state legislators ARE interested in something besides money!

  • Food for Thought (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 18, 2003 @06:49AM (#6721337)
    The problem here is, again, that legislators are elected by people to represent the interests of those people but instead are acting on behalf of artificial entities such as corporations and/or other organizations which pay them money in turn for which the legislators then represent their interests, often in betrayal of the interests of the people they are supposed to represent. It's a most cynical and duplicitous perversion of democracy.

    I regret that I have to say this, but a big part of what's so far preventing this bill from succeeding is John & Karen Minnis, a powerful but very misguided duo in Oregon's capitol. Look at this beauty from last session:
    http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Ter rorism-Lif e-OR-SB742-27feb03.htm
    This bill would define almost anyone, anywhere, as a terrorist and send them to prison for life without possibility for parole.

    The Oregon open source law's failure to pass indicates that our legislative process has been quite effectively coopted by legislators who draw their power from the people, then use their power to protect and further the interests of organizations which pay them money and favors, and /or which represent aims with which the legislators identify themselves, even if those aims are detrimental to the welfare of the people to whom the legislators should be wholly dedicated to protecting.

    Hopefully the bill will pass. Even so, the problem of our subverted legislative bodies will continue. And as it does, we are in deep, deep trouble.

    • Re:Food for Thought (Score:3, Informative)

      by Thing 1 ( 178996 )

      Look at this beauty from last session: http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Terrorism-Lif e-OR-SB742-27feb03.htm [mindfully.org] This bill would define almost anyone, anywhere, as a terrorist and send them to prison for life without possibility for parole.

      You see the damndest things related to terrorism. Check this out (from the second line of the bill):

      Relating to terrorism; creating new provisions; and amending section 19, chapter

      666, Oregon Laws 2001.

      Terrorism and the mark of the beast in a government do

      • so perhaps I'm really not reading this right -- maybe it is simply adding the crime of Terrorism to the already-existing 666 chapter of section 19...

        You are indeed not really reading this right, and it is in fact simply adding the crime of Terrorism to the list of crimes in section 19 chapter 666. I read it that way too until I found Terrorism at the bottom of the list and noticed the note that says "items in bold type are new additions."

        The really scary part of the bill is the very first part:

        (1) A p

  • Aren't votes more important that campaign funding? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cooper_007 ( 688308 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @07:10AM (#6721371)
    I realise this sickening influence of lobbyists is something that won't be going away anytime soon, but aren't these senators weary of public backlash?

    I mean, there's the speaker of the house arguing against savings when other equally or more urgent sectors experience budget cuts. Don't voters care about such things? Aren't the voters ultimately the people responsible for just who's up there representing them?

    Is it really worth while to line your pockets with campaign contributions when ultimately nobody will vote for you anyways because you sold them out?

    • Re:Aren't votes more important that campaign fundi (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @07:38AM (#6721431) Homepage
      Don't voters care about such things? Aren't the voters ultimately the people responsible for just who's up there representing them?

      What I found most interesting was that untill the people outside of governmnet noticed that open source could help them directly they weren't interested in how it impacted the government they voted for!

      Politicians might be short sighted and highly influenced by lobyists, though it looks like the voters -- and all citizens in general -- also suffer from this.

      Who's in charge? Counting on human nature to remain the same, what would be necessary to change this?

    • See, the lobbyists' money allows the candidate to get larger and more powerful advertising out to the masses, which brings in a number of votes. This is weighed by the savvy (read: greedy, corrupt) politician against the loss of votes due to voters' disagreement with his choices on policy matters. So, ax - bx = c, where a is voters influenced by political ads, b is voters influenced by decisions on policy issues, x is the amount of leaning towards the lobbyists, and c is the net votes gained or lost by t

  • Wouldn't it be more effective ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by zangdesign ( 462534 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @07:24AM (#6721398) Journal
    to have it posted somewhere besides a site that already advocates Open Source solutions? I mean, how about local newspapers?

    It's preaching to the converted, otherwise. I don't mean to sound like a troll, but c'mon guys. /. and LT readers are pretty well in favor of it already. How about telling someone who doesn't already know?
    • to have it posted somewhere besides a site that already advocates Open Source solutions? I mean, how about local newspapers?

      It's preaching to the converted, otherwise. I don't mean to sound like a troll, but c'mon guys. /. and LT readers are pretty well in favor of it already. How about telling someone who doesn't already know?

      Didn't read the article, did you? This article isn't preaching to the converted, because it's not preaching at all - it's about the lobbying process, not about the merits of Open
    • This was an effective post in my mind. The slashdot community, while large and energetic has very little political voice in most issues. Any attempts to get techies involved in the hardball of real politics is a noble effort.

  • I can support that argument (Score:4, Interesting)

    by OMG ( 669971 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @08:01AM (#6721483)
    Remember that Munich (Germany, Oktoberfest, remember ?) decided to migrate 15,000 desktops to Linux? That decision was mainly based on the strategic argument that open source software would help local consultants and IT vendors better than MS software would.

    The argument that open source software creates jobs for smaller entities instead of spending money on software from big companies located somewhere is a strong argument if you talk to politicians.
  • Open source needs more CAREFUL representation. If one quotes this article to literate people, putting the '[sic]' disclaimer after every pitiful grammar and spelling mistake, it becomes a sic, sic article. A good cause and informed debate can carry the day, Mr. Stevenson [linuxtoday.com], but why handicap yourself with such juvenile writing? How about asking your English-major girlfriend, of SOMEBODY, to look things over before you publish them? Did the information on that CD contain such poor and distracting writing?

    [
    • How about asking your English-major girlfriend, of SOMEBODY...

      Ummm...that was supposed to be "or SOMEBODY..."

      My...err...English-major girlfriend would not answer my calls...and I didn't see what that Preview was for...and...uhh...
      • ...supposed to be "or SOMEBODY..."

        Hey buddy, get off his case!

        PSaltyDS had a valid point about looking good in print, and just 'cause he made one eensey schmeensey error doesn't mean you have to get all hypercritical and rub it in and... [rant fades off in to the distance]

  • Justify USING open source (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Jonny Royale ( 62364 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @10:04AM (#6722086) Homepage Journal
    You know what, the more I read the article, the less I agree with the original purpouse of that bill, as I read it from that article. If I read it correctly, the bill would mandate that state agencies that didn't use open source would be required to explain why they didn't. That, IMHO, seems a little stilted towards the "use open-source or else" camp.

    How about, instead, a bill that requires:
    1. All software choices made by state agencies include open source software as a possibility
    2. The results of any state run tests be made available for public review & opinion prior to the adoption of the software being tested

    This way, instead of the "or else" tone of the original bill, you get a more "let's level the playing field, and open the books to the paying public". That might get your legislators more amenable to passing that kind of bill.

    Just a thought..

    • Re:Justify USING open source (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Sigh - Guys, you don't understand government spending.

      A bill that requires Open source to be investigate will result in exactly one thing - higher consultancy fees per acquisition.

      There are certain needs that Linux today cannot at all satisfy, and, yes, sometimes it's a lot cheaper if things work out of the box (or at least everyone runs into the same problems) than that a lot of local consultants that could theoretically be retained on demand but have to be hired for lonterm care contracts due to state

    • I agree completely..... I think OSS solutions stand well enough on their own merits. I tire of the endless parade of bills being passed by governments to cater to out spoken groups. Usually their are plenty of laws on the books that would already cover abuse/misue of resources...It is simply a matter of enforcement('Hate Crimes' anyone?).

    • Re:Justify USING open source (Score:4, Insightful)

      by vsprintf ( 579676 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @01:17PM (#6723774)

      How about, instead, a bill that requires:

      • 1. All software choices made by state agencies include open source software as a possibility
      • 2. The results of any state run tests be made available for public review & opinion prior to the adoption of the software being tested

      That sounds good as long as #1 includes a provision that the OSS actually be evalutated against the requirements. Otherwise the consideration given OSS will be pretty minor after the 2-hour, glitzy, high-powered, vaporware demo by the COTS marketroids (and the backslap, wink, and nod from the local lobbyist).

  • WHAT is the problem here? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    OK, so the legislators who are being coddled daily by bigtime special interests are a problem, but what's THE problem? As previously mentioned, that article is a terrible perversion of the most basic grammar and spelling rules. I realize not everyone has taken the time to gain even a basic mastery over their native language, but Christ, at least run a freaking spell check over it.

    Next, let's point out that, while the Minnis crew is undoubtedly corrupt to their rotten cores, there's an enabler here: th

  • It's a sad day... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by El ( 94934 ) on Monday August 18, 2003 @12:07PM (#6723063)
    when legislators in a financially strapped state insist on paying _more_ for something then they need to. Even if they have no intention of using anything but Microsoft software, the minute they present open source as a viable alternative, Microsoft will swoop in offering massive discounts as incentives to stay locked in to their proprietary solutions. Why anybody would intentionally work to block this negotiating tactic can only be explained as corruption. But then, these are the same people trying to introduce a bill to pass a law preventing the city of Portland from buying the local electric utility (PGE) from the now discredited Enron -- despite the fact that Portland had made no attempt yet to do so. Again, they're effective tying their own hands; in the latter case, they are preventing the city of Portland from using the threat of Eminent Domain to extract concessions from Enron. Why anbody would do this, short of being handed a stack of unmarked bills under the table by company executives, is beyond me...

  • If you live in Oregon, please (Score:5, Informative)

    by PotatoHead ( 12771 ) <doug.opengeek@org> on Monday August 18, 2003 @12:41PM (#6723384) Homepage Journal
    write a short letter, e-mail or place a short phone call.

    I had some involvement with this while it was in the house general committee. The combination of AeA lobby and the Minnis couple are what is holding this bill back.

    I got a chance to speak with some legislators on a one for one basis. Most of them do consider well written / spoken input and are happy to have it.

    When you do write this letter or place a phone call, be sure and ask for a response to a question. Not only is your input catagorized and considered, it will take time. They will give you some sort of answer; otherwise, they are on the defensive for later conversations.

    Interestingly enough, if you mail Minnis, you get a short form indicating in advance exactly why you will not get a direct response. (Really shows where the attention is here doesn't it?) Anyway, phone calls and fax work best for her because both of those take actual time and resources from her staff. Your legislator may vary...

    Example questions:

    What is your position on SB 589, the Oregon Open Source bill?

    Given the number of unemployed IT professionals and the potential for savings HB 589 holds, why not work to keep Oregons dollars here where they can do some good for those struggling to find work in tough times?

    Can I count on your support in committee regarding SB 589?

    If, they express support, ask them how you can best help them move the bill forward. --Then do it. (Won't be bad, just a couple phone calls, friendly discussion or a letter.)

    If against, ask them "why?". Take those answers and do some research and get back to them.

    Finally: (The guilt approach)

    Cooper Stevenson along with Rep. Phil Barnhart's staff have worked very hard on this bill against a powerful lobby. Many people across Oregon, myself included, devoted time and energy to the task of education for our legislators the first time around.

    After about a month of hard lobbying, phone calls, letters and appointments, I personally believed Minnis had stopped the bill. We have a second chance people! Passing a bill like this is worth it! Spend a little time, feel good today --why not?

    This is damn good news coming at a time when the legislature is looking for money anywhere it can. Perhaps ongoing pressure from the people of Oregon can make a difference. There must be at least 10,000 Oregon /. readers.

    This is a lot of noise people. If you have never done this before, it's easy, please start now and get two other people to do the same.

    This group deserves an hour or two of your time.

    Cooper, Sally, others... --good job!

    (Off writing and calling as you read this...)
  • Once again, a document was spell-checked without being proof-read. I call your attention to the following:
    • and for wich it was not necessary
    • there really wasn't anything to preven state agencies
    • I might accept the argument that they just weren't sure yet of Linux as middleware accept for
    • this Bill can only really be past with support from you.

    and my favorite:

    • As I approached Sen. Atkinson's office I called to him, "Senator Atkinson," I said, "would you at least consider this legislation?"
      "I'll tell you w

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