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Science

The Perfect Gift: a Clone of Yourself? 150

Posted by Roblimo from the get-twice-as-much-done-without-working-harder dept.
Tom Bailey writes "It appears that a UFO cult is creating a company for cloning people. It costs only $200,000. They believe that humans are clones of aliens. You can check it out at www.clonaid.com. You have to wonder if these guys are really serious. I'm going to ask my parents to get me a clone for my birthday." Very strange. Is this science, humor or pure wackiness?
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The Perfect Gift: a Clone of Yourself? More

The Perfect Gift: a Clone of Yourself?

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  • Re:Don't Laugh, they are for real (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Bunnygirl Rael...is there a connection? The truth is out there [toast.net]

  • Re:The creepiest part to me (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "Who would recreate a child who dies in an accident or incurable disease? Someone would have to have severe psychological problems to even consider it."

    I can't believe how ignorant this statement is. Why do you think that everyone has to think exactly like you? I see nothing wrong with cloning whatsoever, its the next step in our evolutionary process.
  • Think about identical twins to answer several of your questions. In many ways, a clone is nothing more than a twin born much later.
  • Hm. I've seen ads in peoples .sigs here for homepages, t-shirts, ISP's, ans scads of other things. Why should a one-liner about a religion draw so much ire?



    Let's be tolerant of others, shall we children? That means Christians too.

  • Honestly, people read too much Sci-fi. Identical twins are nature's clones, they share the exact same DNA.

    Have you ever met a twin who was an android? Did the two twins get double the work done in half the time? Did you ever meet a twin who was not an individual? Would you consider harvesting organs from your twin?

    Cloning is not a bad idea, other than the fact it might make the human gene pool very shallow, but all these "potential applications" of the "technology" are stupid.

  • There is nothing to laugh about. In my country (France), the Raëliens are known to be a sect. They use all the traditional techniques to recruit people who feel bad about themselves. Their "human cloning" program and 'scientific evidence' is full of holes. They consider that the Dolly sheep cloning means we can clone humans today. They contradict themselves saying in some place that they can do it today, and in other places that this should be possible sometime soon.

    Well, this is just to say, do not take their site as scientific evidence. We might be able to perform human cloning (or cloning of damaged organs) sometime, but I doubt it'll come from them.

    In the meantime, we can play gods by hacking code and controlling what it does ;) Not the same kind of creation, but quite interesting also.
  • Look at the bottom of the page -- there's a graphics that says "pinsun production" with a mailto link.

    The corresponding website is hardly religious material, though...

    Oh, the clonaid.com whois record seems to check out, too.
  • Well if they could clone just the body and then put the old brain in the new body then it might work...
  • I suppose that certainly beats using a radio to call down the Mothership.
  • I went to the future. Brought there by aliens, sent to satisfy my curiostity. (I won an alien gameshow prize, a trip to any time period of my choosing for 48 hours)

    People will be cloned, and clones will be cloned, and it will be a lucrative business. Not only that, but genetic information in general will become quite the commodity. After all, wouldn't you want a daughter with Nat Portman eyes and Love Hewwit chest? Well, you may not, but a helacious number of humans in that time did. And there were plenty of companies eager to make a buck and do it.

    Well, not only is code itself hot digits, but tools to modify and view genes and genetic material in general are also quite hot. Thankfully, a good number of these are open source, so the companies are forced to make their bucks elsewhere.. (hardware and services). Genetic coderz make big bucks, and the skills are even more rare than computer coderz today. (keep that in mind when your children start looking at majors in college)

    So, get your genome sequences today, it may be worth a pretty penny tomorrow.. ;)
  • Well that's why you put a Good/Evil selector on the cloning machine. That way you can create the embodiment of all of your good, boy scoutish virtues.
  • There was an excellent discussion on the possible problems with placing your consiousness into another body attached to the article with the book where it described it (can't find the link at the moment). One of the main questions was whether it will actually be *you* that steps out on the other side, or just a you that *thinks* it's you. Read up on the discussion for a great think-fest
  • Wouldn't cloning be covered by the same fundamental right to privacy that the court created out of thin air in their ruling in Roe v. Wade? Of course: I Am Not A Lawyer, or an abortion rights activist (one way or the other), or a cloning activist, or a sheep.

    --
    Index of Alternative Operating Systems

  • This a quote of Isaac Asimov right>

  • Totally ot, but is anyone getting ziggy stardust deja-vu? :-)
  • I don't want another version of obnoxious me. He would irritate me to death..
  • but gosh, what would you call him?
  • Undoubtably they would look very much like you. However environmental factors do play a role in determining how people look - they might be fatter/skinnier/shorter, etc. If you look at identicle twins you'll notice that they don't look exactly the same, yet they are essentially clones of eachother. The clonew will be close, but won't look exactly like you.
  • There are 3 issues here
    1 They used another sheeps egg and implanted nuclear material into that egg. The host egg has it's own mitochondrial DNA and NOT Dollys'. There is a fair amount a variability in mitochondrial DNA which can and will lead to functional differences of the cells.

    2 They used cells from Dolly that were already "aged" in her body. Cells have spacer sections (end caps is probably a better representative) on the ends of each chromosome called TELOMERES. They are long repetative segments that shorten with every subsequent division of the cell. They probably serve as some time keeper to prevent the cells from living too long and mutating to much (i.e. cancer prevention). Dolly is aging prematurely probably as a result of this.
    3 - The implanted cell that they used has had it's own mutational events different from all of the rest of the cells in the body. An analogy would be to look at your skinn. Superficially it looks the same everywhere on your body, but up close you can see that it's different everywhere. Imagine your elbow skin on your face - looks different eh?
  • They would have the same DNA, but I think what these people are not realizing is that the clone would still be very different from you. A portion of human development takes place before the individuals genes even begin to be transcribed, and maternal factors determine a lot of very early development. Additionally, environmental effects play an extremely significant role in development. The clone will have completely different experiences throughout its life that will result in an almost completely different person then you would expect.

    In undergrad a few years ago at University of Rochester Ian Wilmot (the Dolly guy) spoke and talked about some of the procedural stuff, which wasn't all that inovative. But he talked a lot about social impact and potential applications. Some of the examples he used: if a family has a child and he is killed in a car accident, cloning him from stored cells is not going to give you back the same child, or anything close to it. However, for a couple who are unable to concieve a child, this may be an applicable in vitro fertilization technique.

    Mike
  • Check out the simplifed chinese version of their religions web page (http://www.rael.org/users/china/ simplified/index.htm [rael.org])

    Its downright shocking... complete with crappy midi music (:P

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • Looking through there website I found this [rael.org]. Something about 'sensual meditation

    Anyway, this religion doesn't seem to be based on anything less rational then Christianity, and it looks a lot less dangerous.(based on the philosophy on there website). I'm an atheist, but I don't see why you could condemn these people and not Christianity...

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • This is all very 1984-ish

    Yes.

    Some things are more reasonable then others. Some things are very, very close to 100% reasonable (evolution, that the holocaust happened). And others are very close to 0% (creationism, that the holocaust didn't happen). And other things are in the middle somewhere. (ambiogenisys? did Clinton knowing sell nuke secrets to china?)

    Science is about getting as close to 100% as you can. Once something is close enough, its 'true' and 'proved' for all intents and purposes.

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • A bunch of people in this thread have been mentioning sex with a clone, who's Y chromosome has been replaced with an X. I suppose that you could consider it 'not a true clone' but, if you used your own X chromosome, the new one will still have the same DNA, or at least no new DNA (this doesn't work for women, but we'll assume for the moment that women aren't really interested in cloning themselves for sexual purposes...)

    But what would happen if you had children with your clone? Wouldn't the kids also be clones (all the same DNA as you). I suppose that recessive traits might show up, but you could remove all non-expressed genotypes from your mate when you crate her. You wouldn't have a true genetic clone then, but you won't if you switch X and Y, and you'll still have a phenotypic clone, witch is really what most people are interested in :)

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • I saw this on a documentary about clones a few months ago. Maybe when there's a planet full of dolly sheep they might find out the hideous truth too.
  • > A individual cloned from an original is the same > genetically as the original and therefore of the > same species. What a stupid question! Perhaps you are being a bit naïve. There's a fickle little thing called Twisted Society which will be quite prejudiced. It's fairly plain to see. See such novels as "Friday" and such films as "Gattaca" for reference.

  • Why must you say something so harsh? These sound like the words reserved for an enemy.

    Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? If not, why would you hold such contempt for what you believe to be just a man?

    In light of your horrible comment, you might want to check this link [chick.com] before the day is out.

    Neurotic

  • Re the 'misguided quote'.

    I thought that as well, but there's the "transfer memory and personality in this person" bit. Basically, what they're saying is that they're looking for technology more than just producing a genetic identical, but a real 'clone' in the Multiplicity sense of the work.

    However, I think the whole thing is either a hoax or a scam.
  • This site is exactly what it seems (it is linked off of the Realien site)
  • Hmm, I've seen some dodgy humour in my time, but I don't think they're joking, <b>this is for real !</B>
    The really disgusting thing, though, is that they're part of the reason that genetics and cloning scares me. They charge outragious prices (rounghly £120,000 sterling, around eight times my yearly salery) which serve to not only widen the gap between the classes, the rich and the poor, but to create split humankind into almost two different species - those that can afford modifications, and the rest of us that cannot.

    Bloody freaks, hope UFO's come and shoot the hell out of them !
  • Hey all,

    First of all, I do believe in God, but I am by no means a religious bigot... I just like a good argument :)

    Anyway, you go on about not believing everything you read, which is basically what the bible is about. Fair enough, science knows all answers, doesn't it ?
    Hmm, could you meet me in person and prove to me that we can go to the moon with our space rockets ? I've never been there, so how do I know that we can.
    Also, prove to me the Earth is round... the laws of gravity would cause the appearance of a curved Earth when you look to the horizon, but how do I know any different.
    This is all very 1984-ish but until you can actually *prove* one way or the other, please don't try to provoke pointless arguments.

    Oh, just one last little bitching... prove to me that any scientific theory is true for *all* occurences... that's proove as opposed to merely suggesting that it's likely.
  • Hmm, enjoying this now :)

    Anyway, you may cite the seven (or six, thing about it) day creation theory, but don't forget that the Cathlic Church has now declared the big bang theory as being ok with them.

    As for the trusting scientists and media... you can't do that if you're going to throw away the bible under scientific findings. Prove to me that carbon-dating is a perfectly-proven method. As you said, you can't. Fact. You can proove mathmatics but not science.

    Anyway, these Raelian guys are *reall* screwed up, and it's not often you'll hear an Englishman say "screwed" :)
  • It makes me think that the people at least think that they can do it. Anyone who was going to do it as a prank would have made the page look a bit better, or gone for superbly bad, rather than just the my-pets-page-on-geocities-bad that it is now. At least that's what they would have done had they some style...
  • You'd think that if they have the funding to figure out a way to CLONE HUMANS , they could spend more than $20 on web design. Come on... this site is the product of either a bunch of religious wackos who wanted a website or a bunch of 13 year olds who wanted a slashdot story. I find it fairly evident just looking at this site that these people are not meant to be taken seriously. You'd think this one would have been blocked by Roblimo's stupidity filter.

    //Phizzy
  • I really want a Mini-Me of my own. Not only will he share my world domination plans, but he would fit easily into most overhead storage compartments.


    Dear my! What are those things coming out of her nose?
    Spaceballs!
  • It has been made illegal in specific contries but it hasn't been unformally banned. If you were talking about the US then as it stated on the web page Clinton did all that he could do, made it so labs who were thinking about doing human cloning wouldn't recieve federal money.

    Personally i think that it would be extremly weird to have a kid that looked "exactly" like me.
  • Or clones of Bill Clinton!! Lock up your daughters and hide your cigars!!

    Or clones of Al Gore!! No, wait, we already have enough wooden Indians.

  • ;-)

    Sorry, I only *just* saw Austin Powers 2..
  • "the VALIANT VENTURE LTD corporation based in the Bahamas"
    ...
    "The Bahamas-based Company plans to build a laboratory in a country where human cloning is not illegal and will offer its services to wealthy parents worldwide"
    ...
    Who cares if it's illegal in the yankee police-state, when the rich can route around the law?
  • What the _hell_ was that?
  • The first born twin DOES NOT OWN the second born twin, whether natural or artificial.

    Why is it that when you use the word "clone" everyone loses their minds?

    -Peter
  • no, juste pretty sick

  • CLONAID purports to offer a nice variety of cloning services, including

    • A program that provides a clone of a person to be used in case of accidental (or non-accidental, I suppose) death.
    • A program that provides cloned babies for sterile/homosexual couples.
    • (My favorite) A program that provides "the cloning of pets to wealthy individuals".

    However, they then go on to state,

    However, there lies a gap between the demonstration that human cloning is possible and the actual practice. Many steps are necessary to successfully clone a human being, starting with the proper gene transfer which must be carried out without damage to the gene (any damage would lead to embryo defects and miscarriage).

    For this reason, extensive research should be done in order to define the best cloning process and scientists expect to offer positive answers in a very near future.

    So they're selling services that they admit they can't do. Someone should call the Better Business Bureau. (Or Blade Runner, maybe.)

  • Like that would be worse than a clone made by a big corporation. Imagine a salesman that knows exactly how to lure you in to buying useless crap, instead of ones that just guess.
  • Of course... there is one obvious advantage to cloning: scientific testing.

    If we could clone people and do testing on them, it would be very beneficial to medial research... all of the genetic variance would be gone, so you could easily find the difference in medicines -- amongst other things. Psychologists would love it too.

    OF course, looking at our current laws this wouldn't quite work. But in theory those are the benefits.
  • Well, I'd assume this to be worse than doing your parents/children as far as incest goes. I don't think the mother of such a child, even if it is yourself, would appreciate the result.

    I wouldn't mind a clone to help me finish off my game of Blast Corps though.
    (having nothing to do with opposite sex clones or the boinking thereof)

  • but if it means that people are trapped into a situation where they lose their money and their freedom then it's wrong. Otherwise, as long as they're not planning anything that will directly harm me, why should I care?

    So they believe something extreme. I challenge someone to prove we aren't clone's of aliens. Or to prove that we are. It's all a matter of belief :)

  • I thought it was illegal to clone people anyway(?).

  • Ewwww... Creepy... Could you just imagine where this would leed? Everyone would be good little boy scouts, always doing TheRightThing. Ah jeez. Don't you realize how CREEPY that would be? Where would we get our heavy metal music? Caffine? QUAKE?? Think of the Clans! WONT ANYBODY THINK OF THE QUAKE CLANS?! We would all be medics in TF, but we wouldnt go around killing or captureing the flag. That would be MEAN, we would all sit around healing our teammates! I'm not even going to go into what taking your girlfriend to the movies would turn into. (I mean, coming out of the theatre knowing what movie you just saw? Thats not right!)

    Eraser_
  • Yes.. Shrink me!

    A they have clonapet!... Shrink my dog
    And shrink the great and wonderful blue pen [crosswinds.net] !

  • Oh yeah, that. Well, I'm sure memory transfer will come along some time (wasn't there a /. story on that about a week ago?), but they're getting a bit ahead of themselves.

    Mixing the fictional memory transfer with the (partially) factual cloning method doesn't do alot to convince me. It makes the whole thing seem convoluted and idealistic.

    So, in closing, I think the whole thing is either a hoax or a scam. :o)
  • A while ago (few years actually) I heard of a head transplant that was performed between two monkeys. Their heads were physically removed and put onto eachother's bodies.
    Both of the monkeys survived, however they were also both paralyzed from the neck down.
    I can say that someday in the future this could be done with humans, and perhaps cloned bodies.
    In order for this to be ethically viable, I think that a clone would have to be grown that only has a brain stem. Removing the brain of a human with a forebrain (the thinking part) would probably be murder, and the process would be illegal.
  • First off I don't see what is so crazy about their humans-come-from-aliens theory. While I doubt they have any support for it, the same is true for your religion as well.
    Who or what created your God? Did He just appear out of nowhere? Then why couldn't the human race have appeared out of nowhere? It makes much more sense to believe that life on earth was created by another society than from one mysterious omnipotent being.
    Espcially when you consider we are nearing the same achievment.
    Between genetics and neural networks, we will (relatively) soon be creating our own species. The AI ones will doubtlessly live in a computer. Every played Creatures? What makes something alive?
    And as for the genetics, what better way to test the theories of evolution than to plant cells and organisms on another planet, then wait(for a REALLY long time..) to see if they evolve into intelligent beings.
    I find it funny to read the hippocritical posts calling the Raelians stupid, coming from people who actually believe the apothrycal Bible and in a single God. Despite a multitude of evidence that the Bible is blatantly fallacious. Everything on earth was created in seven days, including humans? Even though the earth has been around for billions of years before humans appeared?
    Riiiiighhtt..
    I hold no religious beliefs. There is no evidence yet to prove where we came from. So far Darwinism is the most reasonable theory, there is no denying that evolution happens. The question is how did the first cells appear, and could evolution really do *this much*, over any period of time?
    Also: the only reason human cloning should be illegal, is because it has been tested so little with animals. For instance the question: will the clone start out with a shortened lifespan? This idea is that cells have a sort of lifespan clock. The cloned organism would start out with its lifespan reduced by however long its clone-parent had been alive before being cloned. Once cloning is perfected, there is no reason to prevent any stupid/crazy millionaires from cloning themselves. Its their own fault if they're too stupid, like many people on this board, to realize a clone will only look the same. The brain will grow, from a baby, into an entirely different person. Might as well just have sex instead of cloning!
  • Heh. Arguing is always fun.
    >>Hmm, could you meet me in person and prove to me that we can go to the moon with our space rockets?
    >>I've never been there, so how do I know that we can.
    I have a certain amount of faith in the media/government/humanity as a whole. I don't think the whole space thing could feasibly be a conspiracy, although it is technically possible.

    >>Also, prove to me the Earth is round... the laws of gravity would cause the appearance of a curved
    >>Earth when you look to the horizon, but how do I know any different.
    If you follow the non-conspiracy side of the above belief, then we actually have proof the earth is round, pictures taken from satellites. The real answer is to the next question though..
    >>prove to me that any scientific theory is true for *all* occurences
    Totally impossible. Any scientist could (I hope) tell you that. Science is just deciding on the explanation that works best. Until something is disproved, you just have to go by what makes the most sense.
    So, for instance, the Bible has been disproved by scientific evidence such as carbon dating and fossils, which prove that the earth has been around more than 6 days(or whatever) longer than humans.
    The society-from-society idea is more likely, seeing how our society is on a direct path to producing its own societies. Put that in reverse, and whats to say we didn't come from another society just like ours? What proof is there that we aren't three dimensional playthings on the screen of a four dimensional being's video game? Scary thought, eh?
    Like I said (i think) in my original statement, the Raelians are pretty clearly wacko, as they didn't just hypothesize about possibilities, but seem to claim precise knowledge of the origin of human's. I was scared off their site before I could find where they claim to have found this knowledge. Probably the same place the bible came from - some wacko's head. :)
    In defense of the bible though -- it is quite useful as a moral and hygenic guide, whether or not you realize it's all apophryical.
  • This is such poppycock. Who could believe this? How many lame attempts at publicity have we seen here? Does anyone remember the "Open Source Company" that tried to sell pornography in a "new way" by telling everyone their every tiny move? Lame. And this is worse.

    Furthermore, that really is the worst website design I've ever seen, and I've seen some pretty bad website design (who hasn't). -myopic prowls

  • "Cloning will enable mankind to reach eternal life. The next step,like the ELOHIM do with their 25,000 years of scientific advance, will be to directly clone an adult person without having to go through the growth process and to transfer memory and personality in this person. Then, we wake up after death in a brand new body just like after a good night sleep!" Rael So, if there is another body with the same DNA it is the same person? Right...twins are the same person...makes sense to me!
  • I have a friend who hates the idea of ever having a child - but she really perked up when Dolly got cloned a few years ago. The idea of having "a mini-me" appealed to her narcissism.

    The real appeal is everyone's hidden suspicion that "I could have really been somebody if ..." - many people want to try the nature/nurture experiment, showing that if just they had all the advantages they wish they'd had, they'd be the ultimate genius that their inflated self-image reflects instead of their diminished reality.

    Here's the kicker - they could be right in some respects. The intellectual and emotional environment matters. A child raised with great attention to fulfilling potential may fair better than one raised, well, by self-absorbed yuppies or by 50's era conservative patriarchs who are secretly jealous of their child's opportunities.

    More likely, however, would be a child constantly condemned by the overexpectations of its parent/twin who's attempts to live vicariously through the clone would stunt its ability to mature.
  • Imagine a clone of Ronald Regan. I wonder if HE could remember? Or how about Richard Nixon? "I am not the clone of a crook!"
  • People, at least very rich people, will keep clones of themselves hidden away so that they have a source of organs for transplanting.
  • So the technology exists. But there are still several barriers that stand between the company and its professed goals:

    (1) Morality. Even if the company feels absolutely justified in doing what they apparently plan to, many people, while whimsically wishing for a perfect clone of themselves, could well still <I>feel</I> it wrong to use the company's services. People who think the company's actions morally wrong might (read: will) create some sort of protest. And the protest will likely be <I>big</I>.

    (2) Legislation-- existing and future. Although cloning might be legal in some other country, that does not mean the United States will allow it even so. Maybe the company could lawfully carry out their activities in some other country, but (new?) US laws might just render it impossible for them to service US citizens.

    (3) Technology. Ironically so, but yes, technology might be a factor. I might be mistaken, but as far as I know, though it is possible to clone just about anything, the cloned being will not live long because of the 'genetic age' of its cells. Or something like that.

    There are probably even more reasons why the company might not be able to carry out its plans. Frankly, they sound wacky to me, and I'm not sure just how many folks would buy the company's pitch. I wouldn't.
  • But why would you need clones, when you can live forever [alexchiu.com]!!!??? This guy has it all figured out. And while you're there, you can find out how the whole universe works too (Hint: it's all megs).


    - - - -

  • I'm holding you personaly responsible for the puke all over my keyboard.

    ----------------------------
  • Neat, we have people who want to create clones. This is nice, and I might even clone myself...IF I could transfer my sentience now unto my clone. Until then, cloning for me is notta mucha
  • The Raelians are a cult like any other.
    One of their fundamental beliefs is that we are all descendants aliens, which are/is "God".

    The word elohim in hebrew means "the heavens", which they claim is misrepresented and really means "the things in the heavens", and for Rael I guess that means little green men.

    BTW, these people are a real nuisance in the downtown core of Montreal, getting in the way and distributing their books (propaganda). So far, they doing better than Hare Krishna's and those cult of the Solar temple dudes.

    They have a great marketing/propaganda engine.

    I think they believe in the free sex thing (Read: orgies), but I cannot confirm this. Check out their website (www.rael.org) for a good chuckle.

    Also, the only reason they would want $200k is to finance Rael's expensive taste for mansions for his orgies.

    Do you REALLY think a person is going to be cloned succesfully in the next 5 years? Think about it.

    Hopefully next time this won't be posted on /. .... these fuckers are just a cult.
  • I can't think of a religion that doesn't believe God/Jesus was an alien.


    I mean, he doesn't live here on Earth does he?

  • Don't be daft.

    <i>... what rights does a clone have? Are they still part of the human race?</i>

    A individual cloned from an original is the same genetically as the original and therefore of the same species. What a stupid question!

    <i>How exactly is their relationship to the original described (different relationship, different rights: ex: married, sibling, no affiliation)?</i>

    A individual cloned from an original is the same genetically as the original and therefore they are identical twins in everyday parlance.

    <i>Besides, I thought some high council on human rights met and discussed this issue (of human cloning) when Dolly was created and deemed that cloning humans was illegal.</i>

    This is to be performed in one of those countries which doesn't subscribe to such agreements. There are plenty of such places, I think St. Kitts in the Caribbean is one of them.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction
  • We've had test-tube babies for more than 20 years now. and since then, all kinds of unnatural conceptions. You never see society's hatred visited upon the individuals thus born, even though the parents might receive some flak over it. I really don't think most people will care when they see that a clone is just a normal baby and when they've already had it explained to them that it's just like a twin.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction
  • Correction - fraternal twins are not clones. Monozygotic ("identical") twind <i>are</i> clones. It is a specific biological term and was in usage long before the current practice of nuclear substitution was invented.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction
  • Imagine the joy of a widow raising a child looking like her beloved deceased husband" she said.

    Jesus Christ! Can I please not imagine that? That's about the freakiest thing you could possibly do with a clone(almost). Think of all the psychological issues both the mother and child would have, not to mention...ew! ewwww! What a messed up concept.

    -lx

  • Oh, give me a clone,
    a clone of my own,
    with the Y chromosome changed to X.

    And when it's full grown,
    my very own clone,
    will be thinking of nothing but sex.

    Chorus:

    Clone, clone of my own,
    with the Y chromosome changed to X,
    and when it's full grown,
    my very own clone,
    will be thinking of nothing but sex.
    --

  • Dolly isn't 100% genetically identical to her "parent", but she's still a clone. This has more to do with the way Biologists use the word "clone", though. They routinely ignore the types of changes Spineboy described when describing clonal propagation of organisms such as bacteria, plant cuttings, an earthworm cut in half, etc... Anyway, just a little elaboration of some of his points below:

    1. In terms of being a genetic match, the changes in mitochondrial DNA are a very small fraction of her total genome. I don't know about sheep mtDNA, but the entire human mitochondrial genome is only about 16.5kb (Tiny -- you could print the entire thing out on about 5 pages, single sided), and the number of polymorphisms in the mtDNA is probably only a handful of nucleotides, so she's probably something like 99.99999% a clone.

    Spineboy is right, though -- there *could* be some very important functional differences in that little bit. You could solve that problem by using egg cells from Dolly's "mother" to clone her.

    2. Dolly's "premature" aging has been widely reported, but that is a premature conclusion. She has somewhat shortened teleomeres -- which does not automatically translate exactly to being aged.

    Her cells should have a lower hayflick limit, but, what we need to demonstrate premature aging is a sufficiently large number of cloned organisms. Then we will be able to get a statistical measure of changes in their lifespan.

    3. I think spineboy is confusing two different things here. The skin on your elbow may have had a different pattern of gene expression than the skin on your face, in the same way that that it would have a had a (much more drastic) difference in expression than, for instance, a muscle cell. In addition, the two cells grown and developed in a different environments, which changes their behavior.

    The idea behind somatic cell cloning is that the egg "reprograms" the implanted nucleus's gene expression. However, we can't be sure at this point if the expression has returned to 100% embryonic-like (it probably hasn't), and he's got a valid criticism there.

    I think what spineboy originally meant was a somatic mutation. In that case, you might find one in, say, an old age spot or a cancer -- so yes, Dolly's nuclear DNA might not be 100% identical, either.

  • http://www.emsphone.com/Yankovic/WeirdAl/e_Even_Wo rse/i_think_im_a_clone_now.txt
  • from rael.org:
    On 13 December 1973 French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from an other planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

    There are a lot reasons of people in the '70s were contacted by alians but that's anohter story.


    The extra-terrestrial was about four feet in height, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin and exuded harmony and humour. He told Rael that "we were the ones who made all life on earth, you mistook us for gods, we were at the origin of your main religions. Now that you are mature enough to understand this, we would like to enter official contact through an embassy".

    We are all clones of four foot tall dark haired alians with almond shaped eyes and olive skin. Yet we are generally between 5 and 6.5 feet tall. We are blond, dark haired, redheads, etc. None of us have almond shaped eyes (at least not compaired to what they are talking about) and human skin color ranges dramaticly but I wouldn't have thought of olive.


    Maby it's just the nature/nurture thing but what percentage of humans ``exuded harmony and humour''?

    --Ben

  • What this reminded me of was the old Steve Jackson game Car Wars, where they had a service you could buy called "Gold Cross". They'd grow you a clone (with some sort of rapid aginng technique), then they would implant your memories into it - if you died, poof! A new you. You make backup copies of your data, why not backup copies of your whole family?

    All we need now is a method of transferring memories and the rapid aging, and we're set!

    Of course, in Car Wars this service was "very expensive" (quote from the rules) - $10,000.
  • (1) Morality. Even if the company feels absolutely justified in doing what they apparently plan to, many people, while whimsically wishing for a perfect clone of themselves, could well still feel it wrong to use the company's services. People who think the company's actions morally wrong might (read: will) create some sort of protest. And the protest will likely be big.

    About 10% of the people in this country see nothing wrong with cloning. I define morality for myself as not doing something that brings harm to anyone. Cloning, in and of itself, can do no more harm then identical twins, by definition. I have no desire to have myself cloned, but I don't see how cloning causes harm. (And I don't want to hear about what 'might' be done, most of the scenarios could happen without cloning, and there are plenty of technologies that can harm lots of people, such as nuclear tech. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use nuclear power).

    (2) Legislation-- existing and future. Although cloning might be legal in some other country that does not mean the United States will allow it even so. Maybe the company could lawfully carry out their activities in some other country, but (new?) US laws might just render it impossible for them to service US citizens.

    Cloning is legal in the US (Why do people always think that it isn't?). There are no laws preventing it. Government money cannot be used to fund it, however.

    As for #3, you're right. Cloning of humans can't be done right now, as far as I know.

    [ c h a d o k e r e ] [dhs.org]
  • It's not terribly unusual for a twin to donate a kidney to their twin.
  • Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? If not, why would you hold such contempt for what you believe to just a man?
    Why would being "just a man" exempt one from contempt? There are many mere mortals, living and dead, who have earned plenty of contempt.

    Certainly, if I thought Jesus was responsbile for the way most Christians practice their faith, he'd be on my list of Most Contempable People. But while he might have been either an insightful mystic, or a mentally ill person who really believed he has the son of the Jewish god, I don't doubt that his teachings have been so distorted over the years that he bears little responsibility for "Christianity".

  • What's the price if I only want one 1/8th my size?
  • Find a copy of Isaac Asimov's nonfiction collection of essays. One of them is an essay on cloning that's now around two decades old (in which he mentions, among other things, that the word "clone" comes from the Greek word for "twig" but nobody on /. gives a rat's ass about that :-).

    He wrote this song, which is to be sung to the tune of "Home on the Range" and has some five or six versus plus the chorus. The real first verse goes:

    Oh give me a clone
    Of my own flesh and bone
    With the Y chromosome changed to X.
    And when I'm alone
    With my own little clone
    We will both think of nothing but sex.

    The others are fscking hilarious.

    I'm not going to type the rest because a) it's probably infringement or something, b) you should buy the book anyhow because it's really good, c) I'm tired, and d) now that this thread has existed for more than ninety minutes, all of /. has kneejerked their reactions and nobody's reading it anymore.

    Asimov also mentions his guest speech to a Holmes appreciation society a few nights later, at which he brought the house down by singing an alternative version: "Oh give me a clone / Of the great Sherlock Holmes / With the Y..."
  • Maybe the Baptists will clone Martin Luther to give the Pope another round of heck...

    A religious movement aiming at cloning human beings sounds a little funny. I suppose that when the brainwashing doesn't produce a suitable homogeneous flock, there's always the option of just making copies.

    And since when is a religion the friend of technological advances? Oh wait, this *is* a UFO cult, and there *are* those pesky Scientologists. So I guess there is a precedent.

    I at least hope they'll clone Lazarus Long and have regular weekly orgies, like any advanced science-fiction civilization should...
  • I can't see much reason to clone myself, unless I want to take over the world with an army of clones, genetically engineered to say witty phrases like, "Ah'll be bach." or "Hasta la vista, baay-bee."

    Really, if I'm dead, what do I care if there's some clone of my original body walking around? It's not me, though it *might* look like me. Think about twins. They don't have 100% the same personalities, and they're basically clones when they're in the womb.
  • The Raelian website can be found at <a href="www.rael.org">www.rael.org</a>. It's pretty funny (and the design is nicer than the Clonaid site). A few snippets...

    <ul>
    <li> There are building a embassay to communicate with the Elohim
    <li> The founder apparently used to be a Formula-1 Driver
    <li> They have an online shop where you can buy their book
    </ul>

    Dana
  • Please tell me this isn't serious. If I were to get a clone of myself, I would NOT look to a religious affiliated company to do it. That's all I need, a fanatic version of myself that will stop at nothing to convert the original. Frightening!

    -Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. One lick and you will suck forever.
  • CLONAID® will also offer a service called INSURACLONE® which, for a $50,000 fee, will provide the sampling and safe storage of cells from a living child or from a beloved person in order to create a clone if the child dies of an incurable disease or through an accident. In the case of a genetic disease, the cells will be preserved until science can genetically repair it before recreating the child (or an adult).

    Who would recreate a child who dies in an accident or incurable disease? Someone would have to have severe psychological problems to even consider it.


    --

  • You're not reading what I said. I didn't say there was anything wrong with cloning. I said there was something wrong with parents who would clone a dead child, as if that would cause that child to somehow be "reborn".

    Put it this way... if you died, what would you think if your parents decided to take a DNA sample and just clone a new copy of you? And then just go on as if you had never existed, because after all, they have a brand-new one?

    That is what they're saying with this "insurance" policy. If your child dies, heck, just create a new one! Good as new. Of course, the child isn't the same, and I find it creepy that there might be sick parents who would think the child was the same.


    --

  • Personally, I think cloning a human raises a whole bunch of moral issues... what rights does a clone have? Are they still part of the human race? How exactly is their relationship to the original described (different relationship, different rights: ex: married, sibling, no affiliation)? Besides, I thought some high council on human rights met and discussed this issue (of human cloning) when Dolly was created and deemed that cloning humans was illegal. Forgive me, I don't remember who or what that body of members was, but I thought it was kind of the last word.
    It is weird to see a religious group so for cloning and actually providing the service. I wonder what added benefits the organization has (ie having the clone be a religious fanatic) that isn't transparent at this point?
    I think cloning would be interesting because the clone would have a different life from there on and it would be kind of cool to see how the two humans, although genetically the same, develop as they take on different lives and experiences. I'm sure whoever is the first human clone will soon be sick of all the media following them around constantly... but, hey that's the price you pay for being first! =)
  • What I found most disturbing was the horribly misguided and downright scary quote at the bottom of the page:

    "Cloning will enable mankind to reach eternal life. The next step, like the ELOHIM with their 25,000 years of scientific advance, will be to directly clone an adult person without having to go through the growth process and to transfer memory and personality in this person. Then, we wake up after death in a brand new body just like after a good night sleep!

    Cloning produces a genetically identical copy of an individual, not a consciouslly identical person, as you stated. Clones would differ only in the method of their birth, and in the psychological effects of having an older version of him/her. Not too different from twins, except for the fact that it didn't occur naturally. But I digress.

    Its pretty scary to see a group of people who believe cloning is the ultimate answer to our problems as a species. This view contrasts strangely to the overcrowding, overpopulation, and starvation present in many areas of the world. I would chalk it up to just another cult, but I can more than vaguely identify with the way they cling to and are dependent upon others. It says a lot about a species when it is not only able to recreate itself, but is also (at least partially) willing and even eager to.
  • My religious cult has been cloning people for about three years now. These guys are just ripoffs of jackerian fundamentals of human cloning. And humans aren't clones of aliens, we're clones of ancient gophers. This site should be frowned upon as a disgrace to the human cloning religious cults of America.

    I say we boycot this site.

    --

  • Poor young clone (Score:3)

    by florin ( 2243 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @08:09AM (#1301300)
    As a real life twin, I can testify that cloning can be a very positive experience for everyone involved :). Especially when I was growing up, it was great to have another version of myself around. Someone that I can pretty much trust implicitly, that I can compare the validity of my thoughts and feelings with.

    Come to think of it, several people have told me over the years that they've fantasised about being twins or that they envy me. This desire for a clone seems to be a more common one, whatever the reasons may be. I'm no psychologist but I figure that ultimately noone wants to die, noone wants to be alone, and everyone is pretty much programmed to spread their genes one way or another, anyway.

    The things my brother and me have in common are reassuring, and genetically, we are exactly the same, but of course we've had many different experiences. But even if we'd done exactly the same things, we still would've turned out individuals somehow. Similarly, any clone that you make of yourself is not going to be yourself. I'm not religious, but I'll call the part that you can't duplicate the soul.

    Technical difficulties with cloning aside (I recall having read that Dolly was born with genetic material that was as old as the 'mother Dolly', reducing her life expectancy, and that the egg carrier's RNA made the clone imperfect, or something like that), then what the heck is the use? Imagine being born and knowing that you're a clone of someone that is now 40 years of age or so. It's hard to really imagine how that would feel. Sure, you're an individual, and the different periods when you're growing up are going to make sure that you as clone are going to be even more different from the first edition than a twin would be. But just being able to see yourself 40 years older is a Cassandra-complex like nightmare that must be damn hard to deal with. I for one wouldn't want to do that to anyone, certainly not a tender soul so similar to myself. Personally, I think I'd be likely to loathe my blueprint.

    Aside from that, nature says that as far as procreation is concerned, the idea is to take bits from 2 separate gene pools. To really help things along, we need real children. As much as I think I'm a nice guy, I do need to evolve. Clones don't add anything new.
  • I guess that means little green men
    Grey. They're little grey men.

  • Re:Potential problems (Score:3)

    by maroberts ( 15852 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @04:35AM (#1301302) Homepage Journal
    Froz wrote:
    Sure, it's all fun and games with your personal clones until they start demanding their own account on your machine...

    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz
    adduser: user froz exists
    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz2
    adduser: user froz2 exists
    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz47
    adduser: user froz47 exists
    ------------------------------------------------

    This would also give entirely new meaning to being the root user! :-)

  • Human clones are real (Score:3)

    by Captain Zion ( 33522 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @05:00AM (#1301303)
    Shocking as it may sound, cloning humans is possible and has been done already. A small image of a cloned subject is available here [force9.co.uk]. The scientific article has been published here [weak.org]. However the behaviour of the clone may be unpredictable.

  • Potential problems (Score:3)

    by froz ( 69551 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @03:55AM (#1301304)
    Sure, it's all fun and games with your personal clones until they start demanding their own account on your machine...

    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz
    adduser: user froz exists
    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz2
    adduser: user froz2 exists
    [root@localhost /]# adduser froz47
    adduser: user froz47 exists

  • Some information (Score:3)

    by __aawsxp7741 ( 78632 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @04:21AM (#1301305)
    Actually, this story isn't that new. About three years ago, the Rael-sect, which is responsible for this project, held a talk in my town (in Germany), which I visited with a few friends. We went there mainly for entertainment, it was certainly worth it. At least half of the spectators were, well, skeptical, and it was lots of fun asking questions about their logically rather weak ideas on the creation of mankind. For example, they think humans were genetically engineered in the laboratories of the Elohim (some kind of aliean race) in space. Apparently, the Elohim themselves were created by another higher-level species, which obviously solves all questions ;-).

    Also, the way they reinterpret the bible is interesting. IIRC, Salomon's hair worked as antennae for communicating with the Elohim. It was then cut off when he annoyed them for some reason or other.

    Anyway, this cloning project existed already at that time. They were planning on setting this up on some Carribean island to avoid laws on cloning.

  • Don't Laugh, they are for real (Score:4)

    by farrellj ( 563 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @03:47AM (#1301306) Homepage Journal
    The Raeliens are for real...They believe that Jesus was an Astronaut/alien, or something like that. Sounds like a Chris DeBurg song. They are a Canadian export from Quebec. Part of their worship is that they, as a group, get naked and have sex in an open field, I believe to call down the Mothership or something.

    But then again, I am a Discordian Druid...so who am I to judge, I am not a Brehon!

    ttyl
    Farrell
  • I forget the website I lifted this from, but...

    I want a clone;
    A clone of my own;
    With a Y chromosome changed to an X.
    And if this clone of my own;
    Has a mind like my own;
    It'll be thinking of nothing but sex.

  • So what? (Score:4)

    by adrian_hon ( 145751 ) <adrian@vavatc[ ]o.uk ['h.c' in gap]> on Sunday February 06, 2000 @04:44AM (#1301308) Homepage
    People forget that we already have clones in the real world - they're called identical twins. And you'll have noticed that identical twins are far from identical in behaviour, so if you clone yourself, chances are that s/he won't be that much like you. Your clone will be brought up in a different environment, with different parents, in a different technological age.

    I fail to see why on Earth you'd want to clone yourself, because it's damn well not going to be your soul-mate or any other guff like that.

  • The Raelliens (Score:5)

    by skozee ( 82148 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @06:47AM (#1301309)
    Funny thing about this story is that their headquarters is right in front of our offices. They are actually real nice people, and most of them only somewhat believe the Alien theory,
    and are in it for the hot chicks. This is not a Heaven's Gate type of thing, it's nothing like a sect... It's more of an excuse for orgies.

    They are also actively involved in a few software companies, btw.

    I don't think the cloning is anything serious though, they've been talking about it for
    years. I wouldn't trust a "religion" where the leader (Rael) participates in GT Races with
    his Dodge Viper.

  • Re:Illegal? (Score:5)

    by MrHat ( 102062 ) on Sunday February 06, 2000 @04:26AM (#1301310)
    I don't think it's illegal yet. There have been quite a few attempts to get it to that stage, though. I've managed to track down some of the relevent legislation. This was shamelessly grabbed off of the PhRMA [phrma.org] website. You can follow the links to read the full text of each. The top one is probably the most relevant to your question.

    In the 106th Congress, we have:

    • H.R.571 [loc.gov], Human Cloning Prevention Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Rep Paul, Ron (introduced 02/04/99) A bill to prohibit Federal payments to any business, institution, or organization that engages in human cloning or human cloning techniques.

    • H.R. 448 [loc.gov] , Patient Protection Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Rep Bilirakis, Michael (introduced 02/02/99) A bill to provide new patient protections under group health plans.

    • H.R.398 [loc.gov] , Plant Genetic Conservation Appropriations Act for Fiscal Year 2000 , SPONSOR: Rep Mink, Patsy T. (introduced 01/19/99) A bill to make appropriations for fiscal year 2000 for a plant genetic conservation program.

    • H.R.358 [loc.gov] , Patients' Bill of Rights Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Rep Dingell, John D. (introduced 01/19/99) A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to protect consumers in managed care plans and other health coverage.

    • H.R.306 [loc.gov] , Genetic Information Nondiscrimination in Health Insurance Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Rep Slaughter, Louise McIntosh (introduced 01/06/99) A bill to prohibit discrimination against individuals and their family members on the basis of genetic information or a request for genetic services.

    • H.R.293 [loc.gov] , Genetic Information Health Insurance Nondiscrimination Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Rep Sweeney, John E. (introduced 01/06/99) A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act and the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 to prohibit health issuers and group health plans from discriminating against individuals on the basis of genetic information.

    • S.374 [loc.gov] , Promoting Responsible Managed Care Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Sen Chafee, John H. (introduced 02/04/99) A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 ro protect consumers in managed care plans and other health coverage.

    • S.326 [loc.gov] , Patients' Bill of Rights Act, SPONSOR: Sen Jeffords, James M. (introduced 01/28/99) A bill to improve the access and choice of patients to quality, affordable health care.

    • S. 300 [loc.gov] Patients' Bill of Rights Plus Act, SPONSOR: Sen Lott, Trent (introduced 01/22/99) A bill to improve access and choice of patients to quality, affordable health care.

    • S.240 [loc.gov] , Patients' Bill of Rights Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Sen Daschle, Thomas A. (introduced 01/19/99) A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act and the Employee Retirement Income Security Act to protect consumers in managed care plans and other health coverage.

    • S.6 [loc.gov] , Patients' Bill of Rights Act of 1999, SPONSOR: Sen Daschle, Thomas A. (introduced 01/19/99) A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to protect consumers in managed care plans and other health coverage.


    Whew. That wasn't that bad, now was it. :) Cloning is certainly a controversial (and gray) area. I get the feeling the site in the story isn't real serious as a business (do they even have the facilities necessary to clone humans?). One attempted cloning, by these people or others, would certainly speed up the debates on the issue, and probably get us a test case in the Supreme Court on human cloning.
  • Didn't anyone learn from Calvin's cloning experiment (from Calvin and Hobbes).

    He replicated himself so that he could spend all his time playing. The clones would do his chores, do his homework, attend school, etc. However, it ended up with him doing all the work and covering up for the extra messes the clones created!

    Remember, if you're devious enough to clone yourself, your clone knows this!

    Besides, where will it end? The horror. What if someone cloned the people in those "Old Navy" commercials? No --- this is simply too much evil to unleash onto the planet.

    We must stop at once!

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