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Apple Still Says No To Aqua-Like Themes

Posted by timothy on Thu Sep 27, 2001 09:48 PM
from the why-not-let-people-flatter-you dept.
JoFo writes: "Eric Yang, creator of several Aqua-like themes and skins for GTK+, KDE, Mozilla, gkrellm, and others, was forced by Apple to take down all Aqua-related projects on his web site. It appears they went to his employer as a way to strong-arm him. He writes on his web site 'I went to Apple to test cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell. They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?'" Apple seems at least to be consistent in objecting to nearly any non-Apple project that reminds the company of Aqua, so maybe this was just a matter of time.
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  • In All Honesty... by ekrout (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:52PM
    • Re:In All Honesty... by reverius (Score:3) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:54PM
      • Re:In All Honesty... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:57PM
        • Re:In All Honesty... by frknfrk (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:34PM
        • Re:In All Honesty... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by gig (78408) on Friday September 28 2001, @03:17AM (#2362701)
          If not for BSD, then Apple would probably have purchased a proprietary Unix as its core OS. It would not be as compatible with BSD as Mac OS X is, though, and all those BSD coders wouldn't be as overjoyed with their new iBooks or whatever. (The Mac is now an even better second computer to go with a BSD or other Unix desktop or network.)

          Sharing digital stuff is not a zero-sum game. BSD is the Compatibility Fairy, spreading compatibility around by providing core stuff that you can build anything around and it will still be able to talk to other stuff. BSD licensed stuff is meant to be used by everyone, that's the point.

          The most compatible part of Windows is its BSD TCP/IP stack. Is it good that Microsoft "stole" that code? Imagine how much better the Web would be if IE for Windows used Gecko. Then we would really have a compatible Web, and the Internet Appliance market would probably have a chance because they could put Gecko on top of a BSD TCP/IP stack and the Web would still "look like the Web" to a Windows user, with the same rendering that they see on Windows. You'd be able to run a Gecko-based browser on BSD and a page would look the same as on Windows. In these kinds of common areas, code that everyone can share without restriction really benefits everybody.

          Now, when it comes to the distinctive graphical look of a software product that is the only competitor to Microsoft Windows in many, many markets and is just about to have its mainstream coming-out ... is it really too much for Apple to ask theme designers not to rip off their stuff for a little while? Microsoft is going around cutting off air supplies and promising a complete IIS "re-write" by a year from now (yeah, right), and Apple is asking people to give them a break on Aqua while they try to lift a few more of us out of this Microsoft Morass(TM) 2001 that we're all in, with Code Red and Windows Media and C fucking backslash all over the place. Can't we give Apple a break and let them be the first one to introduce Aqua to Windows users?

          I'm not defending lawyers or anything, and I know the guy in this article is skinning X-Windows, not Windows, but a guy who skins Windows XP to look like Mac OS X is not helping the free software community. Compare the proprietary components in Windows XP to their open Mac OS X counterparts and tell me which one you want your local artists and musicians running, which one you want your Grandma running. Even the BIOS-equivalent on the Mac is an IEEE standard, called OpenFirmware, which is also used by Sun and which has the cutest little Penguin icon that it uses to show bootable Linux volumes.

          By the way ... damn! Mac OS 10.1 is really good. Check it out! Everybody can find at least one feature in there that will make their jaw drop when they try it. For me, it was burning data DVD-R's like they were floppy disks (4.7GB floppies that cost $6 each and take 20 minutes to burn in the background). QuickTime performance is also really something, and DVD playback looks so real that you want to touch it. A sad note is that the rubber ducky icon from Mac OS 9's multiple login panel which somehow appeared in Windows XP's new multiple login feature is not in Mac OS X's multiple login ... it has pictures of big cats such as pumas and cheetahs instead (Mac OS X internal code names). Sad to see the duck go from Mac OS 9 to Windows XP instead of to Mac OS X.
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:In All Honesty... by bwulf (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @04:13AM
        • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
      • So lemme see if I get your argument: by poemofatic (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:03PM
    • Re:In All Honesty... by Lurkingrue (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:58PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:In All Honesty... by bugg (Score:3) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:05PM
    • Re:In All Honesty... by Metrol (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:53PM
    • Re:In All Honesty... by John Miles (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:59PM
    • 5 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • sigh (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ahknight (128958) on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:53PM (#2362044) Homepage
    Let me spell this out: Apple owns the copyright on the design. Apple has the right to enforce this. Anyone who thinks they can get away with it is kidding themselves.

    Aqua is not the only thing they have going for them in Mac OS X(.1), but it's a big thing; it's what differentiaates them from MS in screenshots, etc. If any system can look like theirs, they lose out. I know it's nice, I'd like it on my Linux desktop as well, but it's Apple's property and this is their right, so let's not act too surprised that they try and stop it.

    Let us, however, ignore that Be never cared, QNX doesn't care, and MS really, really doesn't care (it probably even makes them laugh when a Linux WM has a Windows theme). Apple is 'special' in that they have to keep their lawyers fed or they start to go ambulance chasing when they get bored.
    • Do themes =~ look and feel? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Raul Acevedo (15878) <raul@canta r a . c om> on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:06PM (#2362112) Homepage
      How different is this from the lawsuit with Microsoft oh so many years ago over look and feel? Apple lost that battle, right? If so, then what possible claim can they have over a theme, which is essentially just look and feel?

      If people are ripping off the actual icon files then that's one thing. But making something very similar, though not identical, seems like another look and feel issue.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? by ahknight (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:18PM
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? (Score:5, Informative)

        by aozilla (133143) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:25PM (#2362182) Homepage

        The Federal Trademark Dilution Act became effective in January of 1996. Apple lost it's "look and feel" case before that, I believe it was 1995.


        Of course, had The Federal Trademark Dilution Act been in effect in 1984, Apple probably wouldn't be called Apple any more, since they would have lost the trademark dispute against Apple Records.


        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Auckerman (223266) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:53PM (#2362264)
        How different is this from the lawsuit with Microsoft oh so many years ago over look and feel?


        Very different. Apple lost because they signed a bad license with MS and it was ruled that Apple had licensed their look and feel to MS. Not many people know, as part of the IE budle/investment agreement, MS had to pay Billions (it's unknown, but that is what Apple claimed MS owed them) in back payments to Apple for licenses and as far as I know is still paying Apple to this day.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 28 2001, @12:16AM (#2362475)
          Bullshit.

          Microsoft bought $120 Million in non-voting shares, promised to port Office and IE for awhile, and Apple said they'd make IE Mac OS's default browser.

          Apple didn't need the money (they have a few billion in the bank themselves), they just needed to show investors that Microsoft wasn't going to kill them. Microsoft got to keep some competition around, which was helpful during their little stay in court.

          Since then, IE has won the browser war, Apple is in a great (for them) position in the market, Mac OS X is out and growing strong, and Microsoft has not split and has quietly sold that $120mil of non-voting shares.

          Billions in secret back payments? It's a nice story, but no.
          [ Parent ]
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? by TandyMasterControl (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:04PM
        • WHOA!!! by Kahlua (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:16PM
          • Re:WHOA!!! by ethereal (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @09:04AM
        • You Can Do That by waldoj (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:36PM
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? (Score:4, Informative)

        by Noer (85363) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:06PM (#2362296)
        Apple lost that case because it HAD licensed the Mac UI (or elements thereof) to MS for Windows 1.0 and subsequent versions, because otherwise MS threatened to cancel Word for Mac (which had 50% of the mac wp market).

        This skin issue is different; nobody's licensed the look & feel from apple.
        [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:26AM
      • Apple will defend its territory (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Bastian (66383) on Friday September 28 2001, @01:15AM (#2362566)
        If you look on TV, you'll notice that everything about an Apple computer is easily recognizable. Apple's computer designs are one big marketing ploy, turning the owner him/herself into an advertisement. Much like Abercrombie&Fitch t-shirts.

        If you see a PC across the room, you barely notice it. If you see a Mac across a room, you notice. Nothing else looks like an iMac, a G3/G4 tower, an iBook, etc. Apple wants to be visible, and that makes sense.

        The same goes for Aqua. Aqua looks like nothing else - and Apple wants to keep it that way. If Aqua themes became popular, then screenshots from Apple computers would not stand out as much - and therefore, Apple would not burn itself into peoples heads nearly as clearly.

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Do themes =~ look and feel? by ZigMonty (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @01:23AM
      • look and feel? by commodoresloat (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:07AM
      • Apple f'd up the lawsuit by oneiros27 (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @07:43AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:sigh by Spy Hunter (Score:3) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:07PM
      • Re:sigh (Score:5, Informative)

        by iso (87585) <slash@warpzero.inCURIEfo minus physicist> on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:27PM (#2362184) Homepage
        I just wish they would let a Mac port of Mozilla have a Mac look.

        Oh give me a break. If there's that much demand for an Aqua look-and-feel "theme" for Mozilla then somebody will put in the time to add native Quartz calls [mozilla.org] to Mozilla. Adding a silly "theme" is not the way to do this when it's on the native platform of Aqua. Besides, how would you do transparencies with a theme? An Aqua "theme" would be a hack for these purposes.

        If Mozilla were changed to use native aqua screen widgets, then the only thing needed to make it look like it "fits in" is a very simple theme for the menubar buttons -- a theme that Apple wouldn't complain about at all and it would be 100% original artwork.

        - j
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:sigh by iso (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:30PM
          • Re:sigh by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:34PM
        • Re:sigh by forgoil (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:13AM
        • Never going to happen by DrXym (Score:3) Friday September 28 2001, @08:01AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:sigh by gig (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @03:33AM
      • Re:sigh by Nexum (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @07:20AM
        • Re:sigh by BZ (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @04:51PM
      • Re:sigh by vecna_99 (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:01PM
    • True, but not allowing an Aqua skin on OS X... by Aqua OS X (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:39PM
    • Re:sigh by dmarcov (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:53PM
    • Re:sigh by anshil (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:02AM
    • Re:sigh by lavaboy (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:04AM
    • Re:sigh by mjolnir_ (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:05AM
    • Design *copyright*? by Gregoyle (Score:3) Friday September 28 2001, @08:16AM
    • Re:sigh by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @08:42AM
    • Re:sigh by rhadamanthus (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:47AM
    • Re:sigh by ahknight (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:20PM
    • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • This is silly (Score:3, Funny)

    by NitsujTPU (19263) on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:54PM (#2362050)
    I don't think that they will ever be able to claim rights to "all pretty translucent themes."

    Just name it something else already.

    If you get into trouble, throw some prior work, like your favorite drinking glass into evidence.
  • Um, excuse me, but . . . by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:54PM
    • Re:Um, excuse me, but . . . (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ghoser777 (113623) <fahrenba@@@mac...com> on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:59PM (#2362081) Homepage
      Because theu did this retroactively. They let microsoft get away with several GUI rip offs for a couple of years, and then when apple went to the courts when they thought microsoft had gone too far, it was already too late to do anything about that. Now they're making sure they protcted their IP early and often.

      Good business strategy: learn from past mistakes.

      F-bacher
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Um, excuse me, but . . . (Score:4, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:13PM (#2362144)
        then when apple went to the courts when they thought microsoft had gone too far, it was already too late to do anything about that.

        Um, no.

        The judge did not say to Apple "you waited too long", nor any variation on that idea. First, the judge threw out Apple's claim that Apple could own a nebulous concept called "look and feel"; the judge required Apple to list specific items where MS had infringed. Then the judge went down the list, and struck out any item that was covered by Microsoft's agreement with Apple. (You know, the one where Apple agreed not to sue MS. Of course Apple did sue MS, one of the reasons I am not a fan of Apple.) Anyway, there were only 12 items on Apple's whole list that were not covered by the agreement; the judge then went down this list of 12 items and struck down all of those that Apple didn't own, which was 12: i.e. all of them. With literally nothing of Apple's case left, the judge ruled in favor of MS.

        Now, when Xerox sued Apple for stealing, the judge did indeed rule "you waited too long".
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Um, excuse me, but . . . by aozilla (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:14PM
    • Re:Um, excuse me, but . . . by Zoop (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:10PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • color... by Tregod (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:56PM
  • why is this such a big deal? (Score:4, Flamebait)

    by woodja (28457) on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:56PM (#2362061) Homepage
    This might be flame bait for some, but why are we so upset about companies wanting to keep their own image?

    Of all things to fight about, it seems that the appearance of a desktop should be the least of our worries. If Apple wants to keep their Aqua desktop to themselves, fine. Let's be creative and make something better. There are many themes out there that rival Apple in functionality and appearance.

  • Is he suprised he didn't get paid? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ghoser777 (113623) <fahrenba@@@mac...com> on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:56PM (#2362063) Homepage
    I found a bug in NSImage that makes deallocating objects across the Objc-Java bridge fail, and I doubt I'll get a t-shirt. When he filed a bug report, apple make no cliam of repaying people for their free services. I don't think Linus sends people cash or free Tux Dolls when they make fixes to the kernel.

    I am kind of peeved at apple not allowing themes. Maybe they're just holding back on their own theming system for sometime before Macrh 23rd of next year. I guess they're philosophy makes sense: they want people to look at a Mac OS X machine and know for sure that it's a Mac OS X machine. Plus, if it's a theming system not from apple, future updates could hose the system over (The move from 10.0.4 to 10.1 to one .rsrc file and split it into two, for instance).

    F-bacher
    • Share and enjoy ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AftanGustur (7715) on Friday September 28 2001, @02:05AM (#2362621) Homepage

      Is he suprised he didn't get paid?

      As I understood his comments, he was only pointing it out that Apple is all to happy to take input from the community, but doesn't allow the same community the freedom of artistic expression.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Is he suprised he didn't get paid? (Score:4, Informative)

      by gig (78408) on Friday September 28 2001, @03:57AM (#2362764)
      There is still a lot of the theme technology from Mac OS 9 in Mac OS X. When artists complained that Aqua was too colorful, they added a "Graphite" theme to go with "Blue". Even though they are identical except for colors, these really are two themes. It's just that there is no theme interface for the user to add more themes, and no public documentation on "how to make Mac OS X themes". They could still open it up later, once people start to know what Mac OS X looks like, understand that it is different from Mac OS 9, and assume that a Mac is running Mac OS X no matter what it looks like. While 9 and X co-exist, it's important for X to look "like itself". They are getting tons of user feedback, and following that feedback quite closely ... it helps if all the users are using the same GUI ... it helps if Adobe doesn't have to hear from skinning enthusiasts about how their panels won't skin or whatever in their first Mac OS X app. There's enough to do already, with a complete rewrite of an OS.

      A big problem that became evident with themes on Mac OS 8 and 9 (and maybe soon on Windows XP) is that they break really easily when you have a large and diverse GUI application platform that already exists before you start skinning the OS. Out of any ten Mac apps, you would find one or two of them wouldn't skin right because they had custom UI elements or design elements that were meant to go with the default look. I heard that Microsoft was trying to drop themes from Windows XP for this reason, but they are in there in some limited fashion, apparently.

      The Aqua guidelines warn application developers not to assume that the GUI will always look like it does now, so Apple is trying to keep their options open for later. Maybe for Aqua II, and maybe for themes. With all the work they've done for Mac OS X, I think they probably could live with the idea of putting themes on hold for a while. Mac OS 8 was on the cutting-edge of skinning interfaces, but it also got to see a lot of the problems with the process. Mac OS X version 11 might be the place to work that shit out. They can sell a journaling file system to pros and themes to consumers and kids.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Is he suprised he didn't get paid? by Alan Partridge (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @09:02AM
    • Re:Is he suprised he didn't get paid? by Jah-Wren Ryel (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:45PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by standards (461431) on Thursday September 27 2001, @09:57PM (#2362071)
    The law is designed such that if companies want to stop a few people from taking advantage of their work, they have to stop everyone.

    For example, if a collection of friends decide to create an Aqua-like theme and distribute it, what's that to prevent Microsoft from doing the same?

    Clearly Apple is in competition with Microsoft, and it doesn't have any particular desire to permit Microsoft to make use of it's so-called user interface innovations.

    Apple clearly built the Aqua theme, and spent a lot of time and money developing it into something that Apple hopes to be a brand-identifier. For a 3rd party to create a very similar branding, and then release it in such a way that Microsoft could use it flys in the face of why Apple developed the interface to begin with: To outpace Microsoft in interface design.

    So although I feel for the individuals who have spent so much effort to clone the Aqua interface, it is also easy to appreciate Apple's stance on this issue.
  • Well- let's complain! by guisar (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:58PM
  • Yawww! by pinkpineapple (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:59PM
    • Re:Yawww! by gig (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @05:35AM
    • Re:Yawww! by zensmile (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @07:35AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Qt/Mac (Score:5, Interesting)

    by infiniti99 (219973) <justin@affinix.com> on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:00PM (#2362088) Homepage
    Trolltech had to recreate the Aqua look [trolltech.com] for Qt (the GUI toolkit, not QuickTime), since Qt emulates the look of the native system rather than wrapping. Like all other QStyles, there is probably close to no platform specific code in the engine. Unfortunately, only the Qt/Mac release will feature this style, as it apparently would go against "Apple rules" to distribute this into other Qt releases, like X11. So I guess it is ok to emulate the Aqua look as long as you are going to run on the Apple platform. That or Apple specifically granted Trolltech this permission, as Trolltech has mentioned they "coordinated with Apple" to make Qt/Mac.

    While I have suspected Qt/Mac will not be GPL for other reasons, I believe this is a really strong reason as to why it won't be. If it were GPL, then any coder could just snag the style and compile with X11. Why mess with pixmap styles when you have close to the real-deal as a rendering engine?
    • Re:Qt/Mac (Score:4, Interesting)

      by update() (217397) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:32PM (#2362202) Homepage
      From a recent interview [kde.org] with TrollTech's president on the KDE news site:

      Q. When Qt comes to Mac will Linux and Windows users be able to use the Aqua theme?

      A. No, they will not be able to. Apple is very protective of the Aqua design, so we will not be implementing it on other platforms. Apple has offered their help to promote Qt/Mac, and we don't feel that going against their wishes will help them or us.

      Honestly, I don't get why free software enthusiasts aren't embarassed to keep whining about this. Apple created this, let them have it. Either come up with something better or stop snickering about Microsoft and 'innovation'.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Qt/Mac by WasterDave (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:10PM
      • Re:Qt/Mac by anshil (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:16AM
    • Re:Qt/Mac by jrockway (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:37PM
    • Re:Qt/Mac by The Swedish Chef (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:20AM
      • Re:Qt/Mac by TWR (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @01:16AM
        • Re:Qt/Mac by 11223 (Score:2) Saturday September 29 2001, @08:25PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Apple's stance is justified by sting3r (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:01PM
  • What if BK sues Jack for similiar ChickenSandwich by A Commentor (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:11PM
  • Ferrari is the only company. . . (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kfg (145172) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:16PM (#2362153)
    that can use the Ferrari prancing horse logo without express permission. Ferrari is even the only company, by actual court order, that can make cars that are SHAPED like Ferraris.

    Ferrari is NOT the only company that can paint its cars red.

    There are limits to claiming 'themes' as a trademark.

    KFG
    • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by tshak (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:14PM
    • 11th ACR by John Whorfin (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:16AM
      • Re:11th ACR by kfg (Score:3) Friday September 28 2001, @12:23AM
        • Re:11th ACR by TGK (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @02:56AM
          • Re:11th ACR by kfg (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:29PM
        • Not really by mce (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @03:27AM
          • Re:Not really by kfg (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:16PM
    • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by kfg (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:52PM
      • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . (Score:4, Interesting)

        by q-soe (466472) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:57PM (#2362277) Homepage
        Actually the exact shade of red that ferrari paint their cars is copyrighted and trademarked and they are the only company to use that exact shade - you cannot buy it unless you are an authorised ferrari repairer (and there arent many of those) - thus your argument is invalidated.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by PD (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:39PM
        • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . (Score:5, Informative)

          by kfg (145172) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:46PM (#2362402)
          For starters, you can't copyright a color. Period. Thus your argument that my argument is invalid is invalid. All visible colors fall under the umbrella of prior art. You can copyright certain works using color. For instance you could paint a board red, hang it on the wall, call it a work of art, and own the copyright on it.

          Good luck prosecuting people who "steal" your ip. Even if the red is the only board that previously existed with the "exact shade."

          IP is only ip to the extent that it can be effectively protected. That is lesson number one in the ip "biz."

          What you CAN do is define a logo that contains the words "Ferrari Red" and copyright, and trademark * THAT LOGO.* The copyright on the logo confers no protections whatsoever on the words contained within that logo, nor on the color they refer to. So, you can only buy "Ferrari Red" paint from Ferrari because Ferrari controls the name *Ferrari*, and thus the paint name and logo, not because they control the actual light wavelength reflected by the paint.

          This is precisely the reason there are so many doofy names for colors. You *cannot protect the color.* So you make up a NAME for it you can protect.

          And of course there is the fact that there is really no such thing as Ferrari Red in the first place. Ferrari has used literally dozens of different shades of red. There is also the fact that Ferrari didn't even invent the phrase, and it was in widespread public use before Ferrari ever used it. It was, in fact, forced on them through public use. Prior art.

          You are also, of course, aware that virtually every Ferrari, even those painted the *same* color, are in fact different colors? What is the *exact* shade of "Ferrari Red"? How is it defined? How is its use defended when it isn't true that it can only be obtained from authorized Ferrari repairers because any dumb schlub at the paint store can simply mix up unlimited supplies of it for you? You can do it yourself on your desktop if you wish.

          Are you even begining to get my point, which was *there are limits to trademarkability?*

          What's more, a trademark or copyright *does not* confer title. This is perhaps the most misunderstood part of this branch of ip law. In truth *title* can only be granted by a JUDGE reviewing the facts of a particular challange.

          Ferrari *owns* the shape of its cars because a JUDGE, reviewing an actual case has *said so.*

          Oh, it was an American judge by the way, thus in truth Ferrari only owns the shape of its cars in America and those countries that will respect that American decision.

          Trademark and copyright are not the same as registering your car. The fact of the matter is that you can have copyright and trademark certificates in hand and STILL not have the rights they seem to confer on you.

          KFG
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @01:02AM
        • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by thebigwaffle (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @03:02AM
        • Re:Ferrari is the only company. . . by kfg (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:34PM
        • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by green pizza (159161) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:27PM (#2362185) Homepage
    (Prepare to lose all karma)

    Apple has changed, Apple is no longer the company it once was. Aside from the fruit-shaped logo and the menubar running across the top of the screen, Apple Computer is pretty much a modern consumerish NeXT. I've used Apple machines since my former job bought a small group of Lisas in 1983. While I mainly used Amiga and Windows machines at home, I had grown to love the Mac and it's various shaped beigeish gray enclosures. Over the years Apple had made one hellofa a platform. By 1992 we were using Quadra 950 and 800 machines stuffed full of ram, video and graphics nubus cards, and all sorts of wild accelerators. The MacOS (System 7.1 at the time) had no problem with our multiple monitors or our 640x480@30fps streams of mjpeg compressed video. Color correction, TrueType fonts, postscript, ethernet networking (both TCP/IP and AppleTalk/Ethertalk) worked great right out of the box. Macs in that era were ungodly expensive and worth every penny. Perhaps they still are today, though in a slightly different way.

    Then came 1993 when Apple start seeding their early PowerPC machines, and eventually began selling them in 1994. Apple forgot how to make great hardware. They began to rely on the CPU to do everything. Sure the PowerPC had some great oomph, but it alone could not make up for poor design elsewhere. Luckily, the second generation of PowerPC based macs in 1995 (7500, 7600, 8500, 9500) were **very** improved, yet still nothing like the Quadras were back in their day. Eventually the third generation (G3) of Macs shipped, first in beigish gray boxes and later in the funky blue&white swing-down enclosure. By now Apple was bring back the performance, incorporating USB and Firewire. But what they had was nothing much more than a modern PC with a different CPU and OS. The G4 machines with their mighty PowerPC 74X0 CPUs have allowed us to do some pretty exciting things with the CPU alone, but again, it's nothing too special.

    So what has Apple done to differentiate itself? When Steve Jobs returned he and his gang of NeXT thugs took the marketing and software angle. They introduced a funky new interface that looked nothing like MacOS, NeXTstep, or Windows. They created some cool consumer and pro apps (iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro) that made use of the G4 architecture and other features of their machines. They've also become far more mainstream with their retail stores, online ordering, and strict warranty policies.

    It comes to me as no shock that Apple wants to defend it's GUI look-and-feel. I love the Macs I use at work, but to be honest, Apple is always on the brink of disaster. Consider the following: PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success. Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers. Drop the price a bit, woo some users. Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.

    If you think about it, this is already happening. And fast. As every month ticks by, Apple has to work harder, better, and faster to keep up. It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.

    Apple has done some great things over the past 25 years, perhaps more so than any other company short of maybe SiliconGraphics and IBM. I applaud their efforts and love working with their products. I also wish them the best.

    • Re:End of an era, things are ever changing... by esme (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:50PM
    • Re:End of an era, things are ever changing... by znu (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:07AM
    • Parallel Universe? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TheInternet (35082) on Friday September 28 2001, @12:08AM (#2362464) Homepage Journal
      Apple is always on the brink of disaster.

      Apple's the one with $4.2 billion in the bank, who has laid off a total of 50 people since the PC industry downturn, and (with one exception) has profitable every quarter since Q1 1998. Contrast this to all the mass layoffs throughout the industry. There is tremendous value in the company.

      PC makers, along with motherboard designers integrate more cutting edge features that ever, and do so with great stability and success

      Stability? Which industry are you talking about? Certainly not the one with Gateway, Compaq, VA and HP in it.

      Apple has some of the best hardware overall in the industry. The were the first to ship DVD-R, first with built-in wireless antennas, first (and only, as far as I can tell) with gigabit ethernet standard on desktop hardware, and the legacy-free aspect of the iMac certainly drove USB acceptance. Their machines are quite energy efficient, and in some cases, fanless. Their towers are the easiest to manipulate of any manufacturer I've seen. There are weak spots, like the bus speed, but there is plenty to appreciate as well.

      Software makers, especially Microsoft, cater to both the newbie while still offering powerful professional features (much like FontSync and ColorSync) all while maintaining tight integration with said PC makers

      Tight intergration with PC makers? Is that intergration as in "include Netscape and we'll revoke your license" or as in "this driver keeps giving me error messages?"

      Build some cool enclosures that both look nice and are a dream to work with. Boom. No more need for Apple.

      It's just that simple, eh? :) I'm always surprised to hear people really do believe people buy Macs just because they look cool. That's just icing. And the bit about a "dream to work with," you sure make that sound easy to implement. It's not a one time thing. It's a design philoshopy, one that costs substantial time and money to develop, maintain and enforce. Apple spends a considerable amount on continually evolving the concept of a personal computer. Those 30% margins? A lot of it goes right back into the products.

      It should be no surprise that Apple wants to defend one of the very things that differentiates itself from the commodity Wintel PC market.

      You're right, it's not. The legal system says Apple has to virgiously defend its ideas at every point along the way, or loses the right to do so later. I don't think Apple's really all that concerned about people buying a machine to run Linux instead of a Mac just because E has an Aqua theme.

      But here's something else I'm wondering about -- why are people still creating Aqua themes? Apple has asked repeatedly for people to stop. Why does this continue? Surely theme creators can come up with something new. Why not just respect Apple's wishes? It's not like OpenSSH, where you need replication for compatibility reasons.

      You don't even have to look at it from a legal perspective since they haven't actually sued anyone. What if somebody asked you to remove a desktop picture they created from your theme package? Wouldn't you do it? Is this all that different?

      - Scott
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:End of an era, things are ever changing... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @04:36PM
  • by beanerspace (443710) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:28PM (#2362191)

    On one hand, I can see how Apple might be a bit sensitive about people copying their look and feel, especially after loosing their Windows battle with Microsoft in the late 80's.

    On the other hand, if Apple were smart, they'd parly the desire for Aqua themes into Mac sales. A simple and direct ad campaign, "why settle for a cheap immitation when you can have the real thing..."

    Perhaps instead of shutting down Aqua themes, require that they include an icon and link back to Apple ... get some form free advertising out of it in return for allowing people to roll their own.

    Hmmm .. now that I think of it ... themes.org did go down rather hard and fast ...
  • I don't know... by Scoria (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:28PM
  • Apple legal (Score:3, Funny)

    by Stenpas (513317) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:30PM (#2362196)
    Apple legal has always been very brutal. If you go back far enough, you'll see that they have not lost a match yet, except for Apple vs. Microsoft. Even so, they did get Microsoft to basically admit that they just ripped off the MacOS. They won the legal battles with Colorsync, Quicktime VR, some company that copied the imac, and some other stuff. Not to mention a million and one Cease And Desist orders to places like macosrumors.com.

    Personally, I think Apple should sue Microsoft for stealing the rubber ducky and putting it in Windows XP! That's just SO WRONG!! it's Apple's ducky, and those punks at Microsoft think they can just horizontally flip it and call it theirs. It doesn't work that way! I'd go so far as to say the rubber ducky should be Apple's mascot.

    Wait. I think I heard from somewhere that Microsoft did remove the rubber ducky. Any truth to this?
    • Rubber ducky by TheInternet (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:12AM
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  • Why the Mozilla theme? by jesser (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:30PM
    • Re:Why the Mozilla theme? by IronChef (Score:3) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:38PM
      • Re:Why the Mozilla theme? by mr100percent (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:47PM
      • Re:Why the Mozilla theme? (Score:4, Informative)

        by jesser (77961) on Friday September 28 2001, @12:20AM (#2362486) Homepage Journal
        Several reasons for not using OS-native widgets:

        * HTML4 requires that you be able to make listboxes with a tree image in the background. How would you do that on Windows, where you don't have access to the widget code? Mozilla would be forced to use the common subset of what each OS's listbox provides, which would be a very limited listbox.

        * Native widgets sometimes have subtle restrictions. For example, Windows 98 will become unstable if you create several hundred native listboxes. (It usually doesn't crash, but toolbars will stop appearing in new windows; I consider that to be instability.) Internet Explorer suffers from this problem every time I get mod points on Slashdot, but open several top-level stories in different windows before I notice.

        * Native widgets may have less subtle restrictions, such as limits on the amount of text a textbox can contain.
        [ Parent ]
  • Sosumi (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:36PM (#2362206)
    All I have to say to Apple is:

    SOSUMI
    • Re:Sosumi by Mournblade (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @11:15AM
  • it's a logo, like everything else by mr100percent (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:37PM
  • Business opportunity misses by lanner (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:38PM
  • Gee Golly! by Curt (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:42PM
  • Next time, make a contract. (Score:4, Troll)

    by David Hume (200499) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:48PM (#2362249) Homepage

    He writes on his web site 'I went to Apple to test cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell. They didn't even pay me for my effort, yet they try to shut down my project. Isn't that ironic?


    No, Eric Yang, it is not ironic. What it is going on is very simple. You are unilaterally, and retroactively, trying to impose some sort of bargain, agreement or understanding upon Apple. One that that they had no prior notice of, much less agreed to in advance.

    When you, Eric Yang, tested cocoa for Mac OS X 10.1, and found a drag and drop problem with NSPopUpButtonCell, you did so without any prior expressed or even reasonably understood conditions, understandings, agreement, or contract. You gave a gift of your own free will. Apple had absolutely NO reasonable notice that you were doing your testing pursuant to your secret, unilateral, unexpressed subjective belief that if you did such work, you could "of course" help yourself to the intellectual property embodied in Apple's themes.

    The solution next time is quite simple. Be honest and up-front. Contact Apple before you do the work and offer an explicit, clearly express contract: "I will do 'X' if you let me do 'Y.'" If Apple refuses your offer, then simply do not do the work.

    What you should not do is give a gift -- or what every reasonable person would construe as a gift -- of service while holding a secret, undisclosed, subjective, unilateral understanding that the "gift" is in fact conditional, and then whine and complain when your previously undisclosed condition has not been satisfied.

    • Yes it is... by JohnDenver (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:55AM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Irony? No. by michaeldouma (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:55PM
  • Speaking as a UI designer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by faust2097 (137829) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:17PM (#2362324) Homepage
    If you people had any idea what people like me go through to create successful interfaces I don't think you would take this so lightly. Just because we do our work in Illustrator instead of emacs doesn't mean we're sitting there doing a paintjob. I used to code, I once wrote a device driver for Solaris [for a Gretag SPM-50 spectrophotometer if you're interested] but real UI design is the same amount of work.

    Developers in general don't have to deal with criticism from VPs or C*Os about the validity of how their stored procedures are set up. You don't have to sit behind a one-way mirror and watch a user rip the result of the last 3 months of your life to shreds.

    As far as Apple and Aqua goes, you have to realize what it is that Apple really sells. They provide a whole experience that spans hardware, software and everyhting else. They invested millions upon millions of dollars in developing Aqua so I don't think it's a big suprise when they see someone mucking with their stuff. I think they are less worried about "competition" than they are about their work being "diluted" and offered on a system that doesn't work as elegantly.

    What is everyone's great desire to rip off Apple's look anyway? Make something better if you're the expert.
  • Apple can be beaten (Score:3, Informative)

    by erroneus (253617) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:19PM (#2362329) Homepage
    "Look and feel" arguments made by Apple have been lost in the past. Being "similar" is not a good enough reason to be shut down. Many cars are similar to others. Many tools are similar to Crescent's tools.

    You cannot copyright a "look" or a "Feel." Perhaps a "Feel" can be patented as it involves a process or a series of processes. But a non-specific look cannot be copyrighted.

    First, I would take the approach that making these themes can be a form of satire and is protected speech. The expression can be as deep or twisted as you like.

    But only specific works can be copyrighted. Simply making a gui "shiney, blue and semi-transparent-looking" shouldn't be considered enough. Prior to the creation of Mac's Apple, I am certain other artists have created graphics with shiney, blue and semi-transparent-looking things in their works in the past. If Apple can sue based on that amount of similarity, the surely people who created their art prior to Apple's Aqua can sue the hell out of Apple.

    But there must be hundreds of cases where copyright suits were lost on the grounds that the work in question weren't similar enough or were protected speech. This attack on creativity and free speech should be defeated for the priciple alone.

    Apple's lawyers are just trying to earn their pay and justify their jobs. I hold them blameless. Apple believes they are protecting their stockholders' interests. I can blame them only for their lack of conscience and good sense.

    Thoughts?
    • Creativity by TheInternet (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:34AM
      • Re:Creativity by manyoso (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @01:56AM
        • Re:Creativity by TheInternet (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @06:05PM
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  • Is Apple infringing nintendo? by yerricde (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:24PM
  • Themes.org Mirror by digitaltraveller (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:27PM
  • clone themes are useful ... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by burgess (6209) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:39PM (#2362381) Homepage
    i use sawmill on one puter, and macos on the other. i can't change the button bindings in macos, so i set up sawmill to use the same bindings and button positions.

    this works well, and stops me hitting the window menu every time i try to close an app (or worse). they don't have to look identical, just so long as they work the same on the subconcious level we use switches on (what stops you having to think "which is the indicator switch" in your car).

    ironically, now that i'm using the (unthemable) macos x, i am confused as all hell again because i'm used to macos 8.6. shite ... thanks apple!

    apple should realise that user interface should be more flexible (and easy to restore, if you want to enforce consistency), and that there are legitimate reasons for using an aqua or macos workalike on a non-mac platform.

    what's the best way to report improvements to apple for bugs and the like? i've got a call sheet here :)
  • Screw Apple by extrasolar (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:41PM
    • Ethical? by TheInternet (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @01:01AM
    • Re:Hey Extrasolar by extrasolar (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @09:17PM
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  • Double Standard (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jrwillis (306262) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:42PM (#2362391) Homepage
    Ok, let's see how fast I can get rid of all my karma....

    I don't mean to start a holy war or anything, but after reading the majority of the posts thus far I'm confused. While I agree with most people on here, that Apple has a right to defend its design from being copied, is there a double standard here between Apple and Microsoft? I just can't understand why when Microsoft does something like this it's the "Evil Empire" but when Apple does the same it's defended by the community. Then again, I guess I shouldn't try to understand the mindset of a group of people that post goat sex links and racist jokes more than anything else.
  • Why are people pissed at Apple? (Score:4, Flamebait)

    by veddermatic (143964) on Thursday September 27 2001, @11:42PM (#2362394) Homepage
    Apple is wary for reasons:


    Microshaft stole thier implementation of Xerox's "desktop" operating system and ruined thier OS business.


    Then a clone maker came along for IBM hardware and ruined the margin on making machines.


    Apple has been screwed by others since the day computers became available to the people.


    Regardless of my (or your) opinions of thier hardware, software, OSes, and so on, if you were Apple, would you not fight with every single fiber of you being to protect everything you could?


    They are not going after people for money... they are simply saying "we made Aqua, at consideralbe expense (and again, I don't care what you think of it... it cost them heaps of money to develop) so please don't give it away to other platforms".


    Windows XP, Linux, or whatever does not DESERVE a GUI as nice as Mac OS X. My mom can buy a crappy box with Win XP and be frustraed by it. Having an OS X look alike theme could amke her biased agiant Macs. My mom would have no f*ing clue how to use Linux, so if see ever had to use a machine with Linux installed, and it had an Aqua theme, she might think that So X was hard to use. I *did* buy my mom an iMac, and installed OS X on it. She damn well humps the machine she loves it so much.


    So porting one is not only an infrigement of copyright, but just plain wrong as well.

  • Transmeta Image? by deander2 (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:43PM
  • this is our biggest worry? by Snoozer_man (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:56PM
  • iMac coloring too?? No more george foreman grills by TheAB (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:02AM
  • When you outlaw themes..... by teambpsi (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:06AM
  • How sad--for Apple. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mj6798 (514047) on Friday September 28 2001, @12:21AM (#2362490)
    If Apple actually believes that their UI is better, rather than just their graphics, they should probably be happy about projects adopting an Aqua look for their projects: the more applications look like native Mac applications ported to other platform, the more mainstream MacOS X will appear. Furthermore, Apple could let some projects use their look and still draw the line at an Aqua look for Microsoft Windows.

    In any case, it's not worth worrying about. Aqua looks slick, but there are lots of nice looking themes, many of them more usable than Aqua. Rather than trying to clone Aqua, perhaps it would be better to port more free themes to MacOS X and give it a fresh, non-Apple look.

  • Alas poor Apple by uriyan (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:22AM
  • I love religion! by cgleba (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:33AM
    • Amen by TheInternet (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:47AM
      • Re:Amen by TheInternet (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @01:05PM
      • Re:Amen by TheInternet (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:28PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Aqua is a great thing... by Thaidog (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:36AM
  • Another friendly Microsoft comment by ostone (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:38AM
  • GNU used to boycott Apple because of this by Baki (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @01:49AM
  • in the meantime by Rinikusu (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:02AM
  • I may have missed something, but... by mrwhite (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @02:05AM
  • download link for kde by anshil (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:20AM
  • Trademarking Look and Feel by Adrian Lopez (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @02:24AM
  • Themes are confusing to novice users by MrBomb (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:28AM
  • More proof by Ogerman (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @02:32AM
  • Why not call the themes XP? by sjofi (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @03:19AM
  • Not to be gloriusly off topic or nothing... by ainsoph (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @03:22AM
  • slightly O.T: MacOS X still sluggish by haggar (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @04:06AM
  • We will all laugh if the x-box 'look and feel' get by rednuhter (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:18AM
  • this story is such flamebait by Kanasta (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @05:36AM
  • oh who cares ... by wobblie (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:40AM
  • Must be an error... about the Mozilla theme by Lord Kenja (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:41AM
  • HE USED THE APPLE LOGO! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Chanc_Gorkon (94133) <gorkon&gmail,com> on Friday September 28 2001, @06:42AM (#2362974)
    And this is why he was shutdown. Just read the FAQ on that page and you will see that he had a blue apple in his theme. I don't think this is look and feel at all. It's because he used the freakin LOGO is why he had his themes shutdown. In fact, I believe you can still get the Aqua like look in enlightenment and the like from Themes.org, just not the Apple logos.

    Look and feel is ok, just don't use the TRADEMARKED logo.
  • What about the Microsoft vs Apple case? by crazy blade (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @06:57AM
  • Operating System religion by mrfiddlehead (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @07:07AM
  • This is why I'll lock my code out of OS/X by MrJerryNormandinSir (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @07:36AM
  • Update (Score:4, Informative)

    by mr100percent (57156) on Friday September 28 2001, @08:15AM (#2363195) Homepage Journal
    From the link:

    01/09/27/22:11
    This evening, I went to visit /., and found myself on the front page of /.. There were mix feelings about my Aqua projects. I only wanted a browser that works well under Mac OS X, and looks like Aqua. Too bad, I am unable to share that joy anymore. I did not expect to get paid for fixing cocoa, but I felt bad that I helped Apple to write a interface library. Then I was denied to use this interface unless I used their library. In essence, why should I bother to help them with the interface when I am denied to use the interface. I just begin to enjoy working with Apple software, but Apple isn't making it easy for their developers. Anyways, I only hope that Apple would write cocoa UI for Mozilla, then I will not need this project. (OmniWeb is not good enough, yet)


    Want some cheese to go with that whine? [everything2.com] Didn't this guy steal all the widgets from Omniweb?


    How much helping of writing a library did you do? Bug-fixes shouldn't count. I think Apple is great with developers in OS X, short of bringing out Steve Ballmer to chant it. I wouldn't expect Apple to lend a hand with Mozilla, they have not a lot of interest in it.

    As for Mozilla with an Aqua UI - it's a great idea - check out http://sourceforge.net/projects/qbati2/ [sourceforge.net]

  • Who cares? by fxtech (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:19AM
    • Re:Who cares? by delta0 (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @10:26AM
  • Theme.org, listen (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Wolfier (94144) on Friday September 28 2001, @08:30AM (#2363233)
    copyright the themes as GPL too...and when Apple finally gets their own theming engine, sue them with anything that looks familiar.
  • Running Auqa theme on PHP-nuke by J.Way (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:31AM
  • Damn by GeorgeH (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @08:46AM
  • Apple owns it. by 1stmammaltowearpants (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @08:58AM
  • They did *WHAT!* ??? by Zero__Kelvin (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @09:37AM
  • Steve Jobs is a thief by WildBeast (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @10:16AM
  • This is hardly Adobe vs. Skylarov. by gig (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @10:35AM
  • Aqua Shmaqua ... by LoudMusic (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @10:41AM
  • where's the surprise here? by gruntvald (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @11:11AM
  • Are we all babies? by Tony (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @11:57AM
  • Whole Patents and copyright system is flawed. :-( by deno (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @12:06PM
  • It's called foresight... by NeuroManson (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:48PM
  • by Ukab the Great (87152) on Friday September 28 2001, @02:22PM (#2365406)
    Until Linux folks understand basic principles of GUI design and are willing to accept widget layouts based on principles of cognitive psychology and not on "because it looks cool" or "Windows does it", we are all far better off with linux looking plain butt ugly. I have gotten really, really sick of many developers in both KDE and GNOME being only concerned with aesthetics and making the ultimate critera for good GUI design being "it looks perty". If I had a dollar for every absolutely beautiful set of themed widget laid out in the most confusing and usuable manner possible, I could hire both desktop environments teams of competant HCI professionals. It might be far better that potential linux converts won't have aesthetically pleasing themes that might suck them into a world software with even less usability than Windows. Maybe a lack of attractive themes would force the linux desktop environments to focus on areas of the GUI that really count in a user getting their work done. A macintosh from 10 years ago is still more usable than tonights build of GNOME or KDE. And it's far, far less pretty. Themes? Prettiness? A really GUI programmer craves these things not.
  • UPDATE on this story (Friday) (Score:3, Informative)

    by TheInternet (35082) on Friday September 28 2001, @06:09PM (#2366260) Homepage Journal
    From MacNN.com [macnn.com]:

    Apple has apparently worked things out with Eric Yang, whom we earlier today reported was prevented from developing an Aqua front-end for Mozilla and Netscape [simweb.net]: "What Apple objected to was not Aquafying Mozilla, but rather the way I was doing it via emulation, thus not giving Mozilla users a pure Aqua experience. Apple is willing to provide information for creating real Aqua experience for Mozilla. Right now, my efforts are focused on an Aqua interface for Tenon's iTools, so work on Mozilla for the moment is in abeyance."

  • Re:Hmm.. by ahknight (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @09:57PM
  • Re:Nonsense by Ghoser777 (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:14PM
    • Re:Nonsense by dingo (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:18PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Well at least troll accurately by Sagarian (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:21PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:I hate apple by saihung (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:24PM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? by dingo (Score:2) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:36PM
  • Re:Apple is screwed anyway by iarwaith (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:36PM
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  • Re:They have not learned their lesson.... sad, rea by SightlessOne (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:37PM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Ridge2001 (306010) on Thursday September 27 2001, @10:37PM (#2362217)
    First, please don't use the word "ironic " until you learn its meaning. That goes for all of you out there. This has been a major pet peeve of me since the early 90s when all those black and flannel-clad, angsty gen-Xers were big on the word "ironic" without actually knowing the definition of the word.

    Funny, I would think that misusing the word "sociopath" would be far more serious than misusing the word "ironic".

    [ Parent ]
  • Re:They have not learned their lesson.... sad, rea by xylix (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @10:44PM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? by dieman (Score:1) Thursday September 27 2001, @11:12PM
  • This is rude, but On Topic by ehack (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:24AM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? by TandyMasterControl (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:30AM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? by mimbleton (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @05:45AM
  • Re:They have not learned their lesson.... sad, rea by gig (Score:2) Friday September 28 2001, @07:55AM
  • Literally Ironic by SuperGrut (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @10:36AM
  • Re:Who wants it anyway? by delta0 (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @10:46AM
  • Re:"Think Different" My Ass by pressman (Score:1) Friday September 28 2001, @12:59PM
  • Re:Apple fans are freakin' nutcases by pressman (Score:1) Saturday September 29 2001, @10:10AM
  • Re:Eric Yang, Sociopath? by famazza (Score:1) Saturday September 29 2001, @11:20PM
  • 52 replies beneath your current threshold.
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