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Biotech

Journal nizo's Journal: Scary future: people who aren't people 27

Journal by nizo

This recent article reminded me of something I thought of awhile back: what if someone were to take the human genome and remove all the cruft (i.e. all the parts that don't seem to do anything) and create a new species? Or perhaps by using the human genome as a template, take a chimp and manipulate the chimp dna until an essentially human looking smart thing is made. What rights, if any, would this thing have? I could easily see a being created this way that would be indistinguishable from a human except that genetically it would be non-compatible. This new "animal" could be bought and sold at will, since it wouldn't be human (especially if it was derived totally from non-human DNA). Presumably people could feel free to chop one up for spare body parts as well. People could argue that this new being deserved rights, but I am sure there is precedence of animals not being granted the same rights as humans in the past. From a judicial standpoint such a case would open a real can of worms, since granting said being rights would open the floodgates for other animals (and potentially even machines with advanced AI). So what defines a person? Perhaps the innate ability to hire a lawyer should define humanity? :-)

I would be amazed if something like this isn't created in my lifetime.

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Scary future: people who aren't people

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  • It would at least be protected by the cruelty to animal statutes. You're not allowed to kill or abuse unwanted puppies, for example.

    I could easily see a being created this way that would be indistinguishable from a human except that genetically it would be non-compatible. This new "animal" could be bought and sold at will, since it wouldn't be human (especially if it was derived totally from non-human DNA).

    I'd reckon that if the creature bore a sufficient resemblance to humans, and could communicate, th
  • What if all that "cruft" turns out to be necessary (for example, the genes that appear to be left-overs turn out to be a "launching pad" for reconstructing the current gene set in the event of damage)?

    Even if it had zero human dna, if it's sentient, then it deserves all due respect. (even if its not, it still deserves respect as a living being).

    Lets put it this way - what if we came across an alien species who we were capable of interbreeding with - would you? (or, as they used to say, would you let your

    • Even if it had zero human dna, if it's sentient, then it deserves all due respect.

      I think I agree with you.

      But what do you mean zero human DNA? The human genome is 9x% shared with the other great apes. Some say 99% shared with Bonobo Chimps.

      • Yep, we happily eat/chop up/experiment on/sell a species that has DNA that is almost (99%) identical to ours. Even if chimps looked nearly identical to us, I get the sneaking suspicion we would still treat them the same way. Now if they could learn our language and talk to us, things might be different. Or would they? Some chimps have been taught sign language, and have taught it to their offspring (Insert planet of the apes shiver here). At least perhaps they could call us nasty names as we stuck them with

        • Yep, we happily eat/chop up/experiment on/sell a species that has DNA that is almost (99%) identical to ours

          Yep, we're fucked up. Throughout history we've been doing the same to other humans. We still have few problems butchering other humans (war, greed, entertainment on tv and in the movies), and there are still places where you can buy a human sex slave.

          Our treatment of other humans, whales, chimps, etc., is ... well, let's just say that I saw a few seconds of footage from the live-monkey-brain-eatin

        • Now if they could learn our language and talk to us, things might be different. Or would they?

          Depends. Are the humanoid chimps gay or straight?
      • Clarification: I meant the parts that define/make up/express as human, as opposed to the common stuff.

        I'm a big sci-fi fan (written as opposed to the movie/tv pop crap), so I guess I've become accustomed to the idea that its the mind that counts, not the container*.

        Of course, nice packaging doesn't hurt (sigh)...

        * On a side note - maybe being exposed to sci-fi stories most of my life is why I have no problem with gay marriages - the aliens have taken over my mind :-)

  • Or, more to the point, what if it wants to be bought and sold and then to serve you.

    Computer programs already *pretend* to act this way and no-one really complains (although again this has been covered endlessly in science fiction.)

    That said, what you describe is in fact far more difficult than you might think. It is utterly unknown what the genetic differences are that enable a person - but not, as far as we can tell, other Apes - to engage in significant abstract thought.

    Furthermore, it really is a gra
    • Interesting. The idea of subservience could undoubtedly be encoded in genes too I suppose. As far as the abstract thinking goes, what about Koko the gorilla? She made up words on her own by combining signs she knew ("water bird" for duck) and she seemed to understand her cat had been killed, even without seeing the actual event or the dead corpse, and mourning for days afterwords. That all sounds pretty darn abstract to me.

      As far as exploring every shade before we make one, don't bet on it, people are way t

      • They can be as impatient as they want - it's going to take a lot of trial and error for this to work.

        The first several times people try to make an intelligent dog, it will not quite work. It will probably take decades for all the kinks - we can barely even guess what the kinks will be at this stage! - to be worked out.
  • So what defines a person?

    It's not entirely clear to me that there is such a definition. Not a legal one, anyway. Vide, for instance, the abortion debate.

  • A face only a mother could love? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by geoswan ( 316494 ) on Thursday January 27, 2005 @06:25PM (#11497513) Journal
    Whether these sentient beings can have human offspring is not a good test. Some people are born with conditions that make them infertile. Are they disbarred from being considered human?

    Various related species can be crossed. Mules, for instance, are the hybrids from breeding a horse with a donkey. Hobbyists have crossed all the equids with one another, and attempt to cross the big cats with one another. Dogs and coyotes get crossed. African and Indian elephants have, I believe, been crossed.

    Mules are infertile. Perhaps most or all of these hybrids are infertile. Human-chimp hybrids would probably be infertile. But, I suspect it might be possible, with plain old artificial insemination, to breed human-chimp hybrids. They would probably be infertile.

    How intelligent would they be? They might be more intelligent than we are. They might be stronger than we were. Better not let them compete in the Olympics.

    If they were in the human range of intelligence I predict they would have experience a huge identity crisis.

    • [Human-chimp hybrids] might be stronger than we were. Better not let them compete in the Olympics.

      The thing is, I doubt such a critter would even be allowed to compete. I can't wait until we start seeing athletes that have been genetically engineered, possibly even with animal DNA (picture a weightlifter with gorilla muscles). Hell they may already exist, how would one know without serious testing, or maybe not even without doing a full autopsy of a dead athlete's body?

      • A decade or more ago I heard the suggestion that we have two sets of Olympic games -- one for Atheletes who were allowed to use any drug or therapy in their preparation, and one with unenhanced atheletes.

        About a year or so ago there were news reports about a baby who had a syndrome that, until that time had only been seen in lab mice. Even though he was less than a year old he had super bulky, super powerful muscles.

        A part of me is curious about what a human chimp cross would be like.

        What if they fou

  • An interesting question.

    To answer the question, I have to step back a bit.

    A human being is more than just his DNA. The totality of a true being includes many of what I choose to call (just for ease of discussion) 'patterns'. The lower 'patterns' include knowing how to walk, how to breathe, how to reproduce, how to digest food, etc. The higher 'patterns' include how concepts such as society, justice, truth, intellect, love.

    These patterns did not just appear out of the blue... they 'grew' and evolved fr
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Lawyers? (Score:3, Funny)

    by enforcer999 ( 733591 ) on Friday January 28, 2005 @12:11AM (#11500328) Journal
    So what defines a person? Perhaps the innate ability to hire a lawyer should define humanity?



    I represent that remark!!!!! :-)



    Actually, I can not help but think of the Planet of the Apes and the way that Sci-fi seems to be a premonition of the future. Yikes! I kept imagining today that they would implant these cells into chimps and then we would get talking chimps. OMG!

  • If it behaves like a human, speaks like a human and looks like a human.... it is a human.

    Gotta love Alan Turing, don't ya? ;-)


  • You can also say humans overvalue their own lives, and undervalue the lives of animals. The Egyptians and Indians have long traditions of worshipping animals and value the lives of these animals higher than their own. If there was no such under- or over-valueing, we wouldn`t have problems placing any new biological type of species on the ladder.

    I think DNA research is good, but ultimately it can be used in a very bad way. If we create DNA enhanced or optimized humans, we render ourselves obsolete. At
  • Sorry to butt in, I was just perusing a few of your older posts I noticed the "SO dropping Xmas presents hint" entry. Here is a site [milmillington.com] that will maybe help you get through such moments in the future.
    • Haha oh man that site is priceless. Now I am freaking out about what to get for V-day, hey thanks for the idea, maybe I will post a journal entry and see what other people think :-)

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