H-1B Tech Workers May Be Severely Underpaid 307
DocBones sent a link to a provocative story in The Business Journal of San Jose about how foreign high-tech workers in the U.S. on H-1B visas often earn far less than they are worth, perhaps because the terms of their visas make switching jobs so hard that they can't bid out their services effectively. Industry spokespeople deny any wage differences. Trade groups keep on lobbying to raise the current 115,000/year cap on H-1B visas to 200,000/year. The whole issue is a mass of claims and counter-claims, each one "supported" by statistics and surveys. Is there a "right" side or a "wrong" side here? Does anyone with first-hand experience as an H-1B worker care to comment?
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
BUT: Prices being far lower here in San Diego, and a host of other things which we value highly as a family adding positive points to the tally, it made our own standard of living come out about equal. Plus, there's a far bigger job market locally in my field (biotech/biotech-related comouting) than anywhere in my country. And we haven factored in the climate yet.
All these comparisons and evaluations are going to be different for each person, but for us it was a no-brainer, pay cut or not.
The "indentured" part is the problem (Score:1)
The H1-B program should be shut down. Having indentured workers in the industry hurts workers, both H1-B and citizens. It would be better to just let them in, i.e. give them green cards. Then they can negotiate for a higher wage. The H1-B program is a good deal for companies because indentured workers are cheap workers.
Our immigration policy makes no sense. We make it too hard for productive people to come here from China and India, for example. But then, we let Castro dump his prisons and insane asylums on Florida. We allow people to immigrate who will mooch off "the system". The policy is bass-ackards. The H1-B visa was probably created as a workaround but it is being abused.
Re:??? (Score:1)
That is the only legitimate reason I can think of for paying foreign workers who aren't yet citizens less. There IS a risk associated with it, though a small and flimsy one.
Kintanon
Re:So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:2)
Re:Wrong! (Score:1)
I've done a lot of remote work. There's no substitute for physical presence.
-russ
Re:I'm an Indian programmer working in Santa Clara (Score:1)
I am sorry that one of your countrymen is so obnoxious to you simply because he got here a little bit before you did but that is the way of the world I guess. People are the same all over.
Modern day indenture and servitude via H1B (Score:1)
There are some basic and rather fundamental things that are being missed in this discussion. Anecdotal evidence for abuse is easy to find, but the most important issues are being missed by focussing on individual cases.
That is, the companies primary motivation to bring on an H1B person is to lower their employment costs. Period. Moreover the apocryphal nonesense promolguated by many tech companies as to why they need more H1B's is absolutely insulting. The one and only reason they want H1Bs here is to lower their costs. That is to raise their profits.
While you may argue one way or another about how good this is, remember that a business is in business to make a profit for those that own the business. Period. The H1B mechanism allows them to lower costs (which count against profits).
What this creates unfortunately is a technological underclass of worker. That is, a person who is bound to a particular employer for a period of time via the H1B mechanism. The argument is that the H1B provides a method for the employer to pave the way for the H1B to enter the country as a contributing member supplying a badly needed skill.
The problem is that the skills are not all that badly needed. This is rather grossly misrepresented by our high tech lobbyists in DC. The H1B effect is not just to bind a set of workers more closely to an employer, but to also depress the market for wages for those not on the H1B, as they are competing for the same jobs as the H1B people.
So if you are starting to get the point I am trying to make, that employers are using this to help contain their costs, well, then you are on the right track of understanding what is going on here. I do not apologise for this policy, I abhor it. It is important to understand it regardless of how frustrating it is to deal with it.
I would prefer a free and open job market, but it doesn't exist. The high tech salaries are exploding far faster than profits and growth. This should be something that H1B people can take advantage of. Unfortunately with the program in place as it is now, they cannot. They are effectively excluded from this market. The market for H1B people is in fact an attempt to regulate and control the wages for the non-H1B types.
So we are left with a legal binding contract, placing a person into the bowels of an organization for a set period of time. Last I heard, we outlawed that practice in this country (US) 135 years ago.
Apparantly there are loopholes to be closed.
What's been related to me... (Score:1)
Indians are brought over in boatloads. They're granted H1-B's, and several are crammed into a tiny apartment. They're paid way below the current rate, so they can't afford to move, or do anything social, or afford "luxuries" like cable tv. This works out perfectly for the employer--since the employee doesn't have anything to do other than work, they spend ~10-14 hours a day working.
I replaced a guy at a job a few years back who was stuck like this. He had a ton more experience than I did, but he was getting paid roughly the same as I was, even though I was a newhire with almost no experience.
American First Hand Experience (Score:1)
I don't advocate the expulsion of all workers with visas, by far they are very necessary as there is a strong desire for programmers, IT experts, etc. My mother constantly is bugging me to create a program to do this and that for her. However, my experience has shown me that companies first look overseas before searching for a possibly qualified american. If anyone is interested in seeing my resume or has any constructive suggestions, I would appreciate them greatly. I can be emailed at: evanals1@twcny.rr.com
"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically." - Albert Einstein
huh? (Score:1)
If you have a degree or relevant expereince as a Canadian, the TN-1 VISA works wonders.
Me thinks you just didn't go through the right channels. A year wait is wait too long - even an H1B only takes 4 months.
Re:Big-O notation? (Score:1)
O(log n) isn't the nicest, O(1) is. O(1) is constant time. And yes, it does happen. ie: inserting at the head of a linked list is typically O(1), as opposed to inserting at the head of an array, which is O(n).
And saying "if it's O(n^2) or worse, dump the algorithm" is going too far. For sorting algorithms this may be true, but for other algorithms, O(n^2) might be very good. There are some things where there is no known efficient algorithm, where "efficient" is defined as polynomial time. So there are cases where you even have to deal with inefficient algorithms like O(n!) or O(2^n).
Also note that O-notation refers to "growth". Quicksort is O(n log n), and Linear insertion sort is O(n^2), so Quicksort wins for large datasets. Most linear insertion sort implementations will beat most quicksort implementations for very small datasets though. (and many implementations of 'qsort' will actually do something other than quicksort for very small datasets)
Oh, and there are also cases where variables other than n will come up. For instance, in text searching, one might say n is the length of the text, and m is the length of the substring. The typical brute-force string search is O(n*m). KMP (Knuth-Morris-Pratt) is O(n+m^2) I believe. If m is small, and n is very large (as is usually the case), then KMP wins. Also, the O(m*m) part can actually be done once for the substring. Each search in each body of text is then just O(n).
And to get almost back on topic, I'm working in the US on a TN Visa (that's "Temporary NAFTA"). I'm from Canada. TN's are also tied to employers, but since TN's are significantly easier to get compared to H1's, that probably isn't as much of an issue, but it is an issue.
So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:2)
But what is it? (Score:1)
What is a H-1B worker?
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
Then when we were talking about stock options, the brits were saying, "screw stock options, just give us a raise now".
Personally, I've done VERY well with my stock options, and if I could trade my options for a 10% pay raise four years ago, I would NOT do it, even though, as a non-programmer, I don't make all that much.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:It's too Early for Zima (Score:1)
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:Great. (Score:1)
Right-on man! (Score:1)
They do this to Canadian citizens and others all the time.
Also, I'd like to remind many of you who have been posting why most HB-1 workers are coming to the US - because they are needed. There are thousands of unfilled IT positions out there, in both the US and Canada. HB-1 workers aren't taking your jobs, they are filling jobs that would otherwise go vacant. American companies have more IT positions than there are qualified people to fill them. Without HB-1 workers, the US economy would suffer.
Given that, whay should these needed people be exploited? I thought the US was the land of the Free? "Give me your tired, huddled masses yearning to be free"?!?.
Most HB-1 folks are very highly skilled professionals who will do good work. Unfortunately, in such a market, unscrupulous "Agencies" will recruit anyone under the HB-1, pay them crap or deliver inferior workers just to pocket the finders fee. These agencies always get their money but workers get screwed by the bad rep the HB-1 gets and companies loose out because they don't get the workers the so desparately need.
Remember, its the companies who want an increase in the HB-1 quotas, no the workers...
Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:2)
On the other hand, they'd have to pay at least twice of what I earn here in Europe to make me move to the US. Kind of like an extra for hazardous duty...
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
Good rebuttal... (Score:1)
There are indeed plenty of organizations that do not ascribe to the principles that you've elaborated on. There are even more that do follow them for most of the development process, but run things differently at their most basic levels. (The very place where Brooks developed the OS/360 architecture is one of them.) In these places it's widely thought that the only necessary communication is I/O. Once the required input and the desired output are communicated across, a function is written by the programmer to do the work. The programmers in such places have no view into the overall project they are working on, and may not even know what the project is. The functions may be simple or elaborate, varied or homogeneous... to these organizations it does not matter as long as they are done. Such basics as code optimization and reliability are occasionally (some would argue more frequently) thrown out the window in favor of assembling a product fast enough to beat competitors to market.
An assembly line mentality it may be, but unfortunately (this is in my experience) that's how things are currently done in many large US companies. In such an environment, cheap(er) labor is preferred over communications skills, or even more skillful programming in some instances.
Of course, I still think 115K is a high enough ceiling, for this day and age, if one is going to be set. The arguments for or against having a ceiling at all are varied and I'm certain there are many good, reasonable places to stand on both sides of the issue. I currently haven't read enough (or been interested enough) to make a concrete decision about it. *shrug*
Re:So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:1)
Though I am making significantly more than what I was being paid in Montreal, I am finding that the cost of living in Boston is so much higher that I am hardly saving any money.
The H-1B is a _work_permit_ not a _visa_. I was _corrected_ by a border inspector on a trip back to Canada when I made this mistake. Like the TN-1, it permits you to legally work in the US. It lasts for three years but you can only renew it once. Unlike the TN-1, you can apply for a green card while holding an H-1B. People usually follow these steps when moving to the US permenantly from Canada:
TN-1 -> H-1B -> Green Card -> Citizenship
Re:I'm an Indian programmer working in Santa Clara (Score:1)
About half of the group were consultants from Wipro, an Indian contracting firm. Those who got the chance jumped ship to other companies who could sponsor them for a green card (i.e. Cisco, 3Com, etc.).
At my current company we had 3 Indian consultants who recently quit because of problems with the consulting company. Due to our contract with the contracting firm we could not hire them full-time. They were excellent engineers and were treated like full-time engineers. From what I have been told, a significant portion of an H-1 engineer's salary goes to the contracting house, which is associated with the Indian government. It is often just as expensive, or even more expensive, to hire an H-1 engineer than a full-time employee. Sometimes there's no choice. It depends on the company as to how the contractors are treated. Some are treated very well, others are not. As for the pay, it is negotiated between the company and the contracting house, and the contractor often has very little say.
Right now we are looking for full-time engineers with networking experience. Most of the candidates I have interviewed have been major disappointments. Most do not have basic C programming skills which are necessary in an embedded environment.
The Indians I have worked with have proven to be highly talented and very hard working (both those with H-1's and those who've gained their citizenship). I think part of the problem is that there ARE NOT enough American born engineers with the right skills. Large companies like Cisco seem to suck up a huge percentage of networking engineers, and our colleges are not spitting out enough qualified computer engineer/science graduates. I've interviewed some of the recent grads. Some don't know big-O notation or the difference between a linked list and a binary tree, which is pathetic.
Re:But what is it? (Score:2)
H-1B classification applies to persons in a specialty occupation which requires the theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge requiring completion of a specific course of higher education. This classification requires a labor attestation issued by the Secretary of Labor (65,000). This classification also applies to Government-to-Government research and development, or coproduction projects administered by the Department of Defense (100);
Shri
Re:American First Hand Experience (Score:1)
I am US Citizen computer engineer, and feel this has hampered my gameful employment.
Maybe it's all because we, foreigners, can write the word "gainful" in your language without some weird and ironic misspelling?
It's time for all us geeks to wake up (Score:1)
H1-B visas are a classic trick of employers-- align one group of laborers against another. First, they find a legal (and by legal I mean through the legal system with no connotations of justice) way to reduce the wages of one group of laborers (in this case foreign tech), and replace the higher paid laborers with new cheaper. In the past, the workers have been too caught up with being angry at the new workers to attack the legal system through which this entire process is maintained.
So, Re: H1-B visas.
The issue isn't whether foreign workers are qualified to do the work. There are brilliant people everywhere. The only real difference is the language barrier, but everybody else in the world knows which country is taking all the money and therefor which language it would be useful to know (even if it's just cause you're stuck in some dumb tourism job).
The H1-B visas should be modified to increase the foreign workers fluidity between jobs. Limiting the number if visas is bad b/c it doesn't change the exploitave (sp?) conditions of the visa. Limiting numbers also prevents qualified foreign workers from being employed in their American-dominated field. The best solution is to give those workers as many options as thier American counter-parts.
And in the long run, we had better wake up. As computers become commodities, geeks will become more and more like every other employee. This means that we will see more and more labor tactics used against us. Remember the other articles about older programmers looking for work in Silicon Valley? It may be a meritocracy, but there is little doubt that employers are not going to stick to just those rules when it comes time to cut costs.
So wake up. Realize that we have to group together, not just to create a great OS or a great application, but to ensure that we can continue to be employed on our terms, not the employers.
And while we're at it, let's start looking at ways of helping all employees to be employed on their own terms, not that of the companies which profit off of what we build.
...unlike RMS, you can call me a Communist all you want. Not accurate, but not to far from the truth either.
I got $26K, and worked 60+ hour weeks (Score:1)
I also was constantly subjected to "visa blackmail", where my enployer could demand almost ANYTHING, under direct threat of firing me, knowing that I could not legally work in any other job and would be on the next plane out of the country.
However much some other posters minimize this problem, for me it was VERY real.
Slight Correction... (Score:1)
In my case it was true (Score:1)
When I applied at my second employer there was no question that I would be paid "going rate". I believe I am now paid the same as a American worker would be paid. Talking to many other H1-B workers I have found that most are paid going rate in their current jobs, though some have had to change jobs to get fair pay.
I think the whole issue of "cheap foreign labour" in the H1-B debate is a red herring. There really is high demand, employees very quickly after arriving learn what the going rate is for their skills and employers want to retain them -- net result, most H1-B workers are paid market rates.
The real bottom line is that silicon valley is, in part, successful because it is a concentration of skills and a "brain drain" on the entire world. Should the US government not support this and limit its growth by limiting the number of workers, those people will be working in places other than silicon valley. Eventually silicon valley won't matter as much.
TN survey (Score:1)
I'm interested in whether TN visas are really being used for temporary purposes or not. I think not, but I also don't believe we're taking jobs away from Americans (c'mon folks, there are *plenty* of jobs out there, I could literally get three offers a week until Hell freezes over, and believe me, I'm not underpaid.)
Sure glad Slashdot is protecting my anonymity... I think the INS doesn't like us.
H-1Bs can be a good experience for both sides (Score:1)
However, I must agree the potential for abuse is huge. I once interviewed a Chinese Ph.D. that was currently on an H-1B with another company. He was told to lie about his education and claim a BS so they could get away with paying him $35K.
Re:Now I feel underpaid (Score:1)
Re:It's too Early for Zima (Score:1)
I'm at fault there... that part of my statement was based primarily on where I currently live (Research Triangle Park, North Carolina). I'd still argue that if you can't find a location within a decent commute range where $115k/year can support you and your family, you either have a VERY large family or it's time to look at your spending habits.
Re:Wrong! (Score:1)
-russ
Re:Non Sense (Score:1)
Ah, NOW I see why!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:Horsefeathers! (Score:1)
If the worker is legal, then you can't "send 'em back to whereeverganistan."
We still have very high wages. Open immigration would raise our wages, because increased productivity is the only thing that does.
-russ
Western Hemisphere (Score:1)
Re:My experience - Yup (Score:1)
Re:Citizenship as a stock option (Score:1)
Most stock-option slaves are out-of-college twentysomethings. Most H-1B slaves are out-of-grad school thirtysomethings, a lot with wifes and kids. Unemployable wifes and kids, either because of language skills or legal limitations, or (often) both.
Stock-option slaves know the culture, society, the rules of the game. They choose to be in the game and stay in it. H-1Bs may choose to take the chance, but once in it, it's not that easy to leave. You built up credit debts (which are impossible to pay in USD if you move back to say, India, and make 1/10th the amount of money, even for the same level of quality of lige), some countries may look down on you (say, China, Iran, Syria) for migrating to the US in the first place, etc.
Stock-option slaves have rights; they can leave and return to the US at will. Not so with H-1Bs. You need a Multiple Reentry permit, which in itself isnt too hard to get, but it costs time and money.
Stock-option slaves pay Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and can expect to get coverage. Not so for H-1Bs, unless you invest the 5-10 yrs to get a Green Card and claim that coverage. Yet, the fees are still deducted from pay...
/.ers for one would realize that foreign tech workers increase the damn salaries, not decrease them. The fact that there are people willing to come to this country and work, even for 40-50% of the national average salary of their peers, keeps the industry in the US.
Finally, I though
Get your heads out of your cubes people: look at the automotive industry, consumer electronics, clothing, agriculture... If the US makes it harder for people to come here, they will stay at home. In the age of the Internet it doesnt matter much anyways... Can your SF-lifestyle-paying company compete with an outfit out of say the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Russia, India? These guys can charge $1,000 for a site license, kill the US-based competition and still live a life of luxury at home... Yeah, that's the way to keep your salaries, close the doors... And this from Open Sourcers...
Re:How much should you make? (Score:1)
At least in SV you'd probably start at a minimum of 50K/year.
I started at 38K/year 5 years ago. My salary rose very fast after I demonstrated that I had the skills. If all you do is hack together web sites you'll make one salary. If your skills are more valuable (i.e. know how to write computer networking code, embedded, device drivers, etc.) you will make a lot more.
Re:So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:1)
Re:H1-B: Industry's way to high profits, wage slav (Score:1)
Re:Now I feel underpaid (Score:1)
$60,000 is mediocre (Score:1)
Who's doing the exploiting? (Score:1)
On the other hand, I also have friends who have come over to this country through contracting houses who basically seem to indenture the people they bring over. These companies seem to try to keep their employees in the dark about immigration laws to make them afraid of switching jobs all the while skimming a significant portion of their employees wages. The companies I know about are run by "entrepreneurs" (con artists?) from the countries from which they draw their workforce.
The fact is that given the shortage of skilled workers here, many American companies are willing to go through the H1-B visa transfer hassle and hire immigrants directly. If more of the people working for the "slave traders" knew this, I suspect they would find that they could relatively quickly (2-3 months) spring themselves free from their exploitative employment.
Re:H1-B Visa process demonstrably broken (Score:1)
Overbid Cisco, or 3com or whatever.
Pay them, and they will come, they will stay.
If you can't handle the bidding war, then you don't deserve the quality candidates. If your company can't afford it, then maybe you need to hire an accountant to spell it out for you. Or maybe your marketroids could stand a pay cut or two, or four.
That's the whole point of the capitalist system. People who are in demand expect higher pay.
Is this such a hard concept for you corporate slogs to understand?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:H1-B Visa process demonstrably broken (Score:1)
If you drop by and have the skills, you're hired. End of story. If you don't have the skills, turn around and walk back out that door.
I am quite disappointed that most of the candidates I interview can't pass a fairly simple programming test (which I borrowed from Cisco).
At my company, for example, an MFC programmer won't do since they probably don't have the necessary embedded and/or networking skills.
My company is hiring and we're having a hell of a time finding qualified candidates.
Actually, 2nd language is usually better (Score:1)
see, i pick up all the slang and colloquisms in english because i talk to most ppl in english and so i pick up and learn their incorrect grammer. but since the only french i'm exposed to is in the classroom, the only type of french i know is proper french (not quebecois, international french).
so, in general, ppl's second language is usually better than their first language. i think the only thing difficult about understanding foreigner's english may be the accent.
jacob
Why not just say reintroduce slavery (Score:1)
first hand experience (Score:1)
An H1-B is a visa that your employer gets for you. The employee has nothing to do - except get the stamp from the ambassy, which is pretty much guaranteed since INS approved the H1-B. The employer can get you a visa that last 1 to 3 years at a time, and it can be renewed until you reach a maximum of 6 years. (in other words, you can get 2 three year visa in your life time, or 6 one year visa, or 3 two year visa, etc.). The visa is fairly easy to get as long as you are qualified for the job AND - as a requirement for the Labor Certification (from the Labor Department) - you are paid at least 95% of what they think you should be paid for what you do in your area. Assuming that there are visas available, it only takes a couple of months - if that.
SO - not only does the law prevents you from being grossly underpaid (you can't get the visa to begin with if you are), but from my experience, I am most definetely not underpaid considering that I make a little less that $70,000 and I graduated from college about 1 year ago. Also I live in the Pennsylvania, so it's not like housing is sky high like in NYC or Silicon Valley - just to put my salary in perspective.
I am very happy with my job so I have not tried, but switching companies is not a big deal. Well, everything is relative I suppose - your new employer does have to file another petition with INS but considering the pretty short processing time (at least at the Vermont service center) it is not the end of the world, and you won't "waste" any of the 6 year limit. Yuo can also have 2 jobs at the same time I believe, but once again I am busy enough with one - I didn't look into that
Why do I want or need an H1-B? Like myself, a lot of foreign students get one year of "Practical Training" at the end of their studies. If you get an internship and they like you enough to keep you, they may get you an H1-B which will buy them time to get you a Green Card. The H1-B is fairly easy to get (although companies will still use immigration lawyers to get them - just to be safe) while the Green Card is a little bit more complicated but also takes A LOT more time. In my case, I am on the "fast track" for the Green Card and that will still take a little less than 3 years
If I quit my job would my company cancel me green card application? Probably. In fact I am pretty sure, so yes I suppose if I want that Green Card badly enough I am tied to the company I am with for 3 years. But that's not to say that another company wouldn't willing to apply for the Green Card either... Besides, since I work for a consultant firm I can work pretty much for anyone and STILL be technically employed by the same person, so who care!
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
A good friend of mine from the Netherlands told me his mother was worried about him coming to the States. She thought it would be similar to "Mad Max" or something.
My mother is from Jamaica. When she came to the U.S. in the 1960's to go to college she was amazed that there was actually wide open spaces with farms and cows. She was expecting to see something like Manhattan. Hehhehehehe.
The moral of the story is that the U.S. is pretty much like everywhere else. I wonder if you've lived anywhere else? I have - The Netherlands, Sweden, as well as good ol' U-S-of-A. There are nice places everywhere you go.
To Play Or Not To Play (Score:1)
You came here from miserable undeveloper countries. You are lucky that you have high education and necessary skills to come to US. You have no future at home. You still are better off in US. Stop whining. These 2-3-4 years will pass, you get your green card and then you kiss your slavemaster goodbye and get your high salary.
It's that simple. If you whine and stir the pot they (US Government) will close this hole too. Now it's next to impossible to immigrate to US as it is, you got your chance - don't spoil it for others.
Re:Big-O notation? (Score:1)
Re:??? and People from Denmark (Score:1)
Now that the sarcasm is over my little klansmen, I think people like YOU are "the problem".
Obviously, you find something wrong with foreign workers. They can't speak English that well? True, but next time you get pissed at that, ask your self how you would feel if the person having trouble speaking or understanding English were a tall blond, guy from Denmark, or Germany or France instead of being from India, China, Thailand etc.
I'm willing to bet you wouldn't feel the same...
How can a Country which produced Martin Luther King, Jr. produce morons like you two?
it depends on the employer (Score:1)
My salary did go up substantially when they got me a green card after a couple of years. But I'd say that was more down to my girlfriend who taught me how to negotiate American style.
I'm still with the same employer in Silicon Valley after 4 years, and that should say something.
Re:I'm an Indian programmer working in Santa Clara (Score:1)
If an immigrant comes here and stays here, they contribute to the economy in work productivity as well as trickle down to the grocery store where they shop, the apartment they rent and the telephone calls they make back to Mom and Dad where ever they might be. Plus, the U.S. can collect tax revenues which are hardly insignificant.
As for taking work from Americans, it isn't exactly like there's a job shortage for skilled technology workers with any number of skills.
Re:First person experience (Score:1)
Re:American First Hand Experience (Score:1)
Damn, when my company was closed two years ago, I was getting calls from recruiters two days before I even found out. Over a weekend, I got over 50 voice mail messages on my machine.
I'm an art school dropout, and at the time I had a CNE, and 5 years of TECH SUPPORT experience, and I was making $45k, moderate travel.
Don't tell me you know how to code and can't find a job because that's just plain bullshit, unless you smell like rotting flesh at 100yds.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:Another side to this debate (Score:1)
If you and your industry want to attract talent, then pay your existing workers MORE, and offer prospective employees more.
I think your statement about "at any price" is complete bullshit. What is the highest amount you've offered someone? Maybe you need to go higher still.
Supply and Demand.
Now, after this "investment", in 5-10 years, it will pay off, because people going into college NOW will see how lucrative it is in the computer industry, and go into CS. Skill shortage problem solved.
If you can't afford it, then maybe:
A: Lower your marketing budget.
B: Cut your CEO's salary in half (aw, poor baby has to get FACTORY sound on his Lexus)
C: Stop wasting money on immigration lawyers
D: Raise your product prices
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Re:first-hand experience (Score:1)
Your skills are in high demand, you deserve to be paid more, and everyone else in this industry deserves YOU to be paid more.
Can't you people understand that this is hurting EVERYONE in the high tech industry - over the long run?
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law
Marrying American is no the answer (Score:1)
My sister has worked in the US as a nurse for over 5 years. She has been married to an American citizen for 2 1/2 years and the have a 2 year-old boy (Don't ask). Now, this is not a marriage of convenience - they are genuinely in love with each other and in fact are pregnant with baby #2. But my sister has been waiting 2 years to get a green card so she doesn't have to keep coming to Canada to renew her visa (she doesn't want to become a citizen). She is especially worried with all the INS horror stories she has heard. She's afraid to come back for a visit before her GC is issued in case they don't let her back in (entirely possible, despite being married to a US citizen having one of his children and bearing the other). Therefore I have never met my nephew and my parents have never seen their grandchild.
My sister is still waiting with no end in sight.
Doesn't seem so easy now, does it?
Aren't we supposed to be your fiends and biggest trading partner? Doesn't that "world longest unguarded border" we share mean anything?
Maybe my sister should become a mexican serial killer...they seem to have no problems at the border.
(I know, I know. I keep bring this up , but its just so damned ironic).
Satire, I hope? (Score:1)
tears well in mine eyes (Score:1)
Oh please, please stop!
*howl*
Oh have mercy!
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
Although if I can find some nice consulting company to pay me $150-$200 an hour I'd be more than happy to work there again. Excellent beer, fun people and lots of k-rad stuff to be done.
gid-fu
Re:It's too Early for Zima (Score:1)
In the essence, you want to keep the simplicity (or complexity, for that matter) level about the same at any given level of abstraction, and the result is a perfectly understandable arbitrarily complex project design and implementation.
Yes, this is a communication problem between us and them, but it's not exactly clear what is primary - the thinking skills or the English skills.
I heard a good joke recently: "never excuse for your poor English, make others feel handicapped because all they know is just one language"...
On the other hand, you have a perfectly valid point - yes, the communication _is_ vital, and I personally know some people who don't even care to fix their pronunciation after being here in US for 10 years and more. I take this attitude as a direct offense (and English is not my first language either, in case you haven't noticed).
My experience - Yup (Score:1)
Now the exact causez/rationalez/reasonz/theoriez for WHY thatz true are not self-evident. No doubt each such hypothesis bringz its own element of truth and relevance.
The problem with these guyz from my perspective is that, on an elite dev team, communication between team memberz is vital vital vital. Did I say vital?? And lotz of these guyz, their Eengleesh, eetz not zo gud.
Devt vets know that on bigger projects, inter-team relationz r just as important as raw size of ur technical schlong. Just look at the data from DeMarco, McConnell, Constantine, DeGrace, Pressman, etc etc etc for those who know how 2 read.
So thatz why I've held off bringing any on board here, although I've interviewed a couple of them.
While I'm on the subject, this may be naughtynaughty and feel free to spank my ass if so, but let me just say that there are always slotz open on my elite core team for web devheads that rocknroll. And I mean u dream in SQL or whatever. (Remind me to tell u about the nightmare I had a few dayz ago about triple indirected pointers
>>Waxon dudes
Not Quite (Score:1)
Re:Here's a solution (Score:1)
And another one in Vancouver (Score:1)
And as someone who's a dual citizen, you have no idea how restrictive the Canadian government is about US workers. Or used to be, I hope.
Re: (Score:1)
Security problems? (Score:1)
Re:Maybe it's still a lot of money (Score:1)
gid-fu
Hm.. (Score:1)
Brush up your geography, mercan..
Re:My experience - Yup (Score:1)
Tosser.
I meant NOT true, of course, sorry :) (Score:1)
Re:My experience - Yup (Score:1)
/El Niño
Re:It's too Early for Zima (Score:1)
Anyway, I agree a bit with your opinion that communication is the most vital in a project. We've had our fair share of problems caused by miscommunication with the Japanese Engineers we work with here.
rob
Bah. (Score:1)
You wrote "I've interviewed some of the recent grads", well maybe you could consider interviewing slightly OLDER people? No offense guy, but you seem to be exhibiting age discrimination. Whether you realize it or not. And this attitude is pretty common.
I'm certainly a hell of a lot more qualified than those recent grads, but software employers won't give me the time of day. Because I'm "old" at age 30, and my degree is from the dawn of history, back when we didn't have computers, we had to compute by striking rocks together (1991).
Look for inexperienced people, and that's what you'll get.
I'm currently earning less than $50,000 per year in a not-very-challenging 'programming' job in the middle of nowhere (i.e. no job market), and looking for a change of scene. If you think you can handle someone who's ten times more qualified than a wet-behind-the-ears CS grad, just send a note to jtr109@hotmail.com.
First person experience (Score:1)
Bottom line: if people hired under H1B's have the knowledge, skill, experience, and mastery of the English language that they need to do the job, great. Otherwise, don't let them in the country. Maybe there should be a basic test (along the lines of the test required to become a naturalized citizen) that visa applicants must pass before the visa is granted?
It's not so bad. (Score:1)
The real problem for people may well be that they are inexperienced and from an alien culture. For a senior engineer like me who understands the US system fairly well, things work pretty OK.
Now the INS may well be the worst working organization in the civilized world. But that's an other vent...
Question (Score:1)
CP
AC hits the nail on the head (Score:1)
Remember the inscription on the Statue of Liberty? It doesn't apply any more. We have to close our borders because we can't afford (un-constitutional) social programs for immigrants. This causes all kinds of weird "tests" that must be passed to join our elite club. It's a horrendous mess, and this is just one of the injustices that can never be remedied within our current system which is based on fear and bigotry.
It makes ESR's Libertarianism sound pretty good.
Re:Here's a solution (Score:1)
Re:Immegration Sucks (even from Canada) (Score:1)
The poster should eat hist rotten egzzzzzzzzzz (Score:1)
And they definitely do not have the habit to spell guyz with Z and for you as "4 U"
Listen to Lenard Cohen (Score:1)
If you are too lazy or do not want to waste a couple of bucks ask yourself the following question:
Since when did the SLAVES have any f... rights?
H1-B is a very Abuse visa (Score:1)
The high tech industry claims there is a shortage, but there really isn't one. Several companies which have been barred from using H1-Bs and other visa applicants have been able to hire enough people to meet their needs. The problem is that everyone wants to maximize profits and are willing to sacrifice U.S. employees to do it.
Interesting not the H1-B program was introduced in 1990, shortly after that thousands of employees found themselves without jobs and the economy went into a recission. History has been know to repeat itself.
Hope you die young cuz they'll fire you at 40!! (Score:1)
I'm 56 years old and grew up with computers and electronics; I have every license and endorsement the FCC can issue. I passed the commercial FCC test at age 17 when applicants had to draw schematics in front of the Regional Engineer. My first operating system was RT-11 and I migrated to Unix early. I've worked with boxes that had to be hand-programmed. I've adminned BSD, Solaris, Linux and NT machines. I was an electronics engineer for a company that made discrete control systems, worked in the field installing and reparing them, and wrote the technical manuals for them. I can even spell without a spell-checker and write reasonably coherant paragraphs.
Yet I am not employable! No company wants anyone they consider "over the hill"
Thanks to some lucky investments back in the 80's, I could move to a rural area of the USA where I rent our land to local farmers to make my home self-supporting. I started the first ISP in my area and sold it 2 years later. I designed the network for the local school district and I keep my hand in by doing their more exacting 'puter jobs (routers, etc).
Nevertheless... no company would hire me. When we lived in the Seattle area I bombarded the companies there (including MS) with resumes when I knew they had openings that fit me exactly. I never even got one interview!
Think of what this means to you as a young systems engineer or programmer. Not only do *you* face exactly the same problem (you can escape it only if you die young), but you also are denied the opportunity to work with people who lived through the history of your industry. People who can explain why certain things were done in certain ways and give you a breadth of knowledge not available from other sources.
American firms are displacing their older workers, workers who are reliable and knowledgable, with cheap foreign workers. It's as though General Motors built a compound and imported cheap labor from third-world countries in order to fire all their American workers. If this happened, there would be an uproar. But they do it to us under the guise of a "technical shortage".
I don't blame the foreign workers. They are only taking advantage of a situation that can help them grow. And certainly their contributions to US culture are worthwhile. But look around your company... how many people over 50 are there? Or over 40? My guess is that maybe 1 out of 5 at best; simple demographics say that there should be more than this.
I think you guys are all great... don't get me wrong. But there should be room for those of us who built the foundations you are helping to expand.
I'm an Indian programmer working in Santa Clara (Score:5)
You pretty much as bonded to the employer after this. In my case, I hate my current job, and my current boss. But what can I do? I had better shut up and play the game if I want to get the green card in a few years, so I'll play the game.
Otherwise my H1-B will run out after three years, and I have to go back to India, and wait for some time before I can get another H1-B. And I recently got married, so I'm not about to make waves.
This formula is varied in a few cases (you can get your green card quicker if you're a Ph.D, etc.), but basically, I'll agree with the premise that we're (Indians, Chinese, etc.) are making far less and are bonded to our employers until we get our green cards. In my specific case, my boss, who is Indian (and who has his green card), has made an explicit threat in many cases to Indian workers who are working under him that he will slow down their green card process, etc, if they don't meet his expectations. Management knows of this, but why should they care? If he's caught on this, they can just say they didn't know.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more the situation is screwed up. My boss, for instance, only hires H1-B workers on his team (4/5 people are H1-Bs). There's supposed to be some requirement that he is supposed to search for American workers, but what he does is find an Indian, find some experience that the Indian has that is uncommon, and make that a requirement of the hiring process. That way, he can make a cursory search of the job listings, and say that there isn't a qualifed American worker.
And this works for him. We're all running scared, we'll do whatever he wants, and work like dogs. If someone finds a better job (which happened to a colleague of mine), all my boss has to do is fire him immediately. That way, that person has to get his H1-B transferred to his new company, and with the time the INS takes to do that, the visa might have expired, and you might have to go back. In fact, this is what happened to my colleague, he is in Delhi right now, and my boss uses him as an example to us all the time.
So, OK, it'll be three years for my green card, and then I can get away from this.
So, to conclude my post, I agree that America is getting cheapers, more compliant workers as H1-Bs. And, in all honesty, we are taking jobs from American workers here. But look on the other side. None of my American colleagues work 80 hour weeks - they don't have the reason to. And I know whatever success my company has had is due to a great amount to people like me - so when I see people complaining about H1-Bs on one hand, and crowing about their stock gains on the other, I think it's hypocritical.
And a final note to all the xenophones here - judge me on skills as a technologist, not my country of origin or my skin color. Slashdot (and Americans as a whole), are tolerent, wonderful people, but it's the bigots who stand out. Before you tell me to "Go back to my own country", ask yourself this - why do you think I came to yours? True, I came here to support my family, and myself, but I also truly came here searching for a better way of life. I truly believe that I have something to contribute to America - and remember, and one time or another, your parents or grandparents came here with the same belief! So give us a chance............goodbye...
H1B wages (Score:2)
I'm sure there are unscrupulous companies or managers who do lure foreigners (ok, I'm not really a foreigner, I had a pretty good clue as to what prevailing wages were) with promises of peace, prosperity and good old American apple pie if you only indenture yourself to us for say five years.
This exists in any business. Most people only see the typical designer clothes sweatshops because 20/20 runs an editorial or expose on them. There are also the equivalent to sweat shops in the technical field, adult entertainment, farming and so on. Raising the maximum amount on the H1B won't stop these sweat shops as they're obviously already shelling out well under the maximum H1B amount. Raising the H1B amount will however allow companies to get more talented people which is really what the country and industry should want.
I'm not sure how to fight sweat shops unless you made it illegal to underpay somebody, but who's to define underpayed? An electrical engineer with a MASc and 8 years of experience shall not be payed less than this: XXX. If that engineer is in California then the amount shall be 2*XXX.
Eventually you've got to rely on the integrity of companies and the pride of workers unfortunately.
Simple Solution (Score:2)
Attach it to the next H1-B ceiling increase. If Silicon Valley businesses don't much care, then they're sincere about needing more tech workers. If they whine, then they've been lying, and all current H1-Bs should be converted to unrestricted long-term visas with an option of citizenship. It's that simple.
/.
Re:H1B wages (Score:2)
A lot of companies do targetted recruiting though. Persons working on certain projects at certain companies is offerered incentives to move. I've often wondered how on earth they find out who's on what project (or even what projects are under development), it smacks of corporate espionage.
I've wondered about that myself. I'd call it a low level espionage.
The issue of an H1-B worker changing jobs after the perk (and it is a perk) of having the first company deal with getting their H1-B is a real issue, but isn't really different than the situation with other employees. There are always those who will take the signing bonus and the relocation expenses etc, and then promptly go to work for someone else in a few months.
That will help to ensure that the company lived up to the H1-B requirement that they first seek to hire someone already in the country. Some here have reported companies that cheat on that requirement so they can have extortable employees.
Re:So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:2)
As part of the visa process the department of labor has to approve a labor condition application, which essentially has to prove that the foreigner isn't getting paid less, being treated worse, or otherwise degrades the working conditions of Americans. This usually includes a salary survey that proves that the foreigner is getting paid a reasonable market wage for the position. Ie, the alleged wage disparity isn't really supposed to exist unless someone's cheating. The labor condition application also has to be posted to the local unions or, in case of their nonexistance, posted publically at the place of residence for two weeks prior to the application process, so any nay sayers can say nay to us foreigners
Re:It's too Early for Zima (Score:2)
It's the BIG projects that DO require efficient, accurate communication. And, as I think more about my experience in this particular area, the more I believe that there is really a communication problem with foreign workers.
Software is not assembly line work, regardless of how many clueless managers out there treat it as such. You can't show some Chinese or Indian person "here's how you assemble this widget, watch me" then turn him/her loose to crank em out by the bushel.
Let me quote what I consider to be a brilliant passage from Fred Brooks:
"Software entities are more complex for their size than perhaps any other human construct, because no two parts are alike
... scaling-up of a software entity is not merely a repetition of the same elements in larger size; it is necessarily an increase in the number of different elements. In most cases, the elements interact with each other in some nonlinear fashion, and the complexity of the whole increases much more than linearly."
When you say "churning out function after function" you're describing a state of development antithetical to Brooks' depiction. Which is not to say there aren't plenty of clueless shops out there doing exactly that, producing seriously gnarly software.
In order to AVOID the assembly line mentality, we need good communication between team members. Good communication does not reside purely in language skills either, like I suggested in my original post. A plethora of subtle, non-verbal communication cues are continuously being exchanged during conversation, and cultural context has enormous impact on the transmission and reception of these cues. Let me quote from Negroponte "Spoken words carry a vast amount of information beyond the words themselves. While talking, one can convey passion, carcasm, exasperation, equivocation, subservience, and exhaustion--all with the exact same words."
I'm thinking of a specific instance from experience where I had major trouble communicating with one of my contractors (we'll give him the fictitious name Alvin.) Alvin was literally FOB -- fresh off the boat. Now, from a certain standpoint you could say that Alvin was reasonably fluent in English, in the sense that he understood the factual content and literal meaning of most of my speech. But the real problem was that *I* could never tell if he was really following what I was saying because Alvin continuously transmitted confusing non-verbal body cues to me. He would bobble his head a certain way, he would make weird hand gestures, etc. which were completely alien to me, and as it turns out, my non-verbal cues were probably alien to him as well.
Now in our biz where we have ENOUGH trouble already making sure that everybody understands (to his or her technical limits) what's going on, where we're going, and how we're going to get there, this type of relationship was TOTALLY FRUSTRATING for me, and ultimately a complete failure because Alvin never accomplished much. Whether the fault was his or mine (probably both culpable), the fact of the matter was that we were NOT good at communicating with each other.
So let's tie this diatribe back into the main point: are these guys UNDERPAID? Well the whole concept of whether someone is underpaid or overpaid derives directly from the value the individual contributes to the organization.
The empirical evidence that I've seen suggests that foreign workers make LESS. But I think that's partly a function of the fact that integrating such a worker into an existing team is a tougher proposition.
>>WO
P.S. The "linguistic style" of my earlier post seems to have provoked quite a response LOLOL. It was probably a result of having been on some Quake/HL boards immediately prior to writing it, so I waz in dat gamez mode, u know, d00d?
Re:So $60,000 is underpaid. (Score:2)
For me anyway, the problem isn't the competition. The problem is that the foreign tech worker is over a barrel the moment he/she gets to the US. Since that can (and does) force them to accept lower wages, it also puts citizens and perminant residents over a barrel.
All that is necessary to see that is to look at reactions of those lobbying for raising the cap on H1-B. They do not seem to want the H1-B to turn into a sort of temporary green card (become portable to any employment). If they REALLY just wanted to fill a shortage of tech workers, they would be quite happy to dispense with some of the bureaucracy involved. Since they seem to want to keep the I must conclude that it serves a purpose for them. The only purpose I can think of (since bureaucracy is never entertaining and doesn't carry a tax break) is that it allows them to pay less.
Closed borders are not a free market (Score:2)
Re:H1B wages (Score:3)
So, if the job is in CA or NY city you can expect to be paid more than in wisconsin for example.
But, the proof is only when the H-1B is obtained, so 6 years later (the max it can be extended for) you may be earning far less than the norm.
Of course, there are many other different categories of work permit (O-1, L-1, J-1 etc.) that have other requirements.
Work Permit (Status) / Visa Difference:
The INS uses the term Status to define whether you have a right to work in the US. You first enter Status when you get your first work permit. You can stay in status by extending or changing you work permit. If at any time you fall out of status (h-1b expires, you get fired) you are meant to leave the country.
The Visa is the stamp in your passport that lets you in the country. All the while you stay in the US, this Visa stamp can expire and everything is fine. But if you leave the US on vacation, you need to get the Visa stamp renewed before you can re-enter the US. You can only renew the Visa stamp outside of the US and an American Embassy / Consulate. You need you work permit paperwork to get the Visa stamp.
The green card gives you the right to reside in the US, with or without a job. The are many different ways to get a green card (i.e. family sponsored, work sponsored, lottery). Each different cateogory has a numberical limit on it, e.g. the family based categories are all taken for several years to come, but the professional work based categories have green card available.
In the self sponsored categories you have five sub-categories each with different allocations:
1) Super-human, Ph.D etc. say 30,000
2) Professional, B.Sc etc, say 25,000
3) Regular, Lib Arts Degree, say 15,000
4) High school grad, say 10,000
5) Everyone else, say 5000
It is not often known that anyone in the world can apply for a green card, and if acceptable you will be granted one based on availability of the category you applied for. So if you applied for a category 4 green card and got accepted you may be given an allocation numbers of 65,000 - meaning you can come and live in the us, but not for five years.
Mike
Re:H1B wages (Score:2)
Which is fine if thats the fair market value, obviously they were being underpayed. A lot of companies do targetted recruiting though. Persons working on certain projects at certain companies is offerered incentives to move. I've often wondered how on earth they find out who's on what project (or even what projects are under development), it smacks of corporate espionage.
There's the ever popular offer to work at start ups who are going public 'real soon now' and who are confident that 'your options will be worth millions' as well. The company who went through the legal expense for the H1-B and green card application then loses the employee.
Again I'm not sure what the answer is if there is one other than for people considering working abroad to make sure they're pretty self educated on where they're going to work.
Those tax free >$100,000 (with free room and board) offers to work in Saudi Arabia looked very enticing in university until you found some of the devils hiding in the details.
H1-B Sweatshops (Score:2)
What usually happens (in my experience at least) is that H1-Bs are usually recruited out of grad school or, less often, over the Net (as I was). Now, most, if not all H-1Bs, either have no experience of life in the US (including cost of living, job market, work ethic) or very little --usually what you get in grad school; but most science and technology grad schools these days have, in the majority, foreigners anyway, meaning there aren't that many Americans around to pass on cultural/social/financial experience to us foreigners (what about a post about the F-1/GRA slaveshops run by most big research schools?)
Now, another factor that that the article left out: most companies don't want to go through the H-1B sponsorship routine, unless the candidate is a really good fit: immigration lawyers cost real money (and you're gonna need one) and most importantly it takes a long time. In my case it took 4 months after accepting the job offer; for some colleagues it took up to 6.
This is because what no H-1B article anywhere has mentioned: INS is forced to deal with double or triple the number of H-1Bs with NO increase in personnel or change in regulations. The usual time to get an H-1B (4-6 weeks) has effectively doubled and tripled after the quota changes and INS was NEVER that good in keeping up with the paperwork anyway. Now the delays have become so long that most big companies shy away from H-1Bs, unless, as I said, it's a really good fit.
Enter, the "slaveshops": contracting or consulting firms that need a lot of good, educated people, and work on slim profit margins anyway. You have all those F-1/J-1 (college students and exchange visitors or researchers for those not-in-the-know) graduates who see the burgeoning economy and most of the time get the door slammed to their faces. With all this opportunity around and the dearth of opportunity back home, sure, why not take a job that pays 30-40% lower than the national average, especially if you don't know that you're worth more? In one company I know there are still US-educated engineering PhDs (from big-name schools no less) on H-1Bs that make less than $45k/yr...
So, why don't they jump ship and switch jobs? For one thing, the H-1B "transfer" process is long and tricky --again, most companies don't wanna wait 2 months to get someone on board unless it's a good fit. Secondly, and IMHO more importantly, most H-1Bs don't have a grasp of the job market or the practices here in the US. In a lot of cultures, you just don't leave your employer after a few months or a year; most just wait until the first 3 yrs to apply for a Green Card or look for another H-1B (you can only get two 3-yr terms) which really doesn't change the situation.
I was more lucky than most, I came here as an undergrad, I understand the culture and all that, but I still had to win the damn Green Card Lottery to get out of the H-1B rut... Most people don't win the lottery, and actually most aren't even eligible to apply (e.g. Indians, Chinese, Koreans). And believe me, did my job options change when I put "Permanent Resident" (i.e. Green Card holder) on my resume... I am leaving my position for a job that pays about 50% more than what I am making now and I could probably have done better than that if I didn't want to stay here much longer.
My proposal for changing the situation: do with the quotas as you (the US Congress, the industry, American people) think you should, but:
Make the H-1B easier to get for qualified, educated workers (no more that inane "have to look for an American that can do the same job" bullshit --most shops will post an ad that precisely fits their fav candidate, down to "has to speak and write Chinese/Indian/whatever"). It makes a lot more sense to set some standards of education/work experience that can be changed according to the needs of the job market, rather than enslave the visa holder to one employer,
Make it easier to transfer between employers --if you aren't here because you fit a specific job but because you're good enough, it should be much easier for you to change sponsors,
Actually have the visa holder pay for the cost of the H-1B process (lawyers and crap) from his salary. Most "sweatshops" use these costs as an excuse for lower salaries anyways, and most big companies shy away from H-1B because of these costs. I, for one, would much rather have $4-5k deducted out of my salary than make $15-30k less than what I am worth.
/. is actually shining the light on this phenomenon...
And please, consider something else: for most of us, cost of living is actually higher than for Americans: most F-1/J-1/H-1Bs don't know the tricks and shortcuts and workarounds to lower costs (unless they stick with a community from their homecountry), most have spouses that have even a worse time finding a job, most have expenses that even for Americans are luxuries (plane tickets to halfway around the world, phone bills that run in the hundreds of dollars).
Something must be done... unfortunately, H-1Bs don't have money to spare to form PACs or vote for anyone to give a shit...
I apologize for the huge post... And thanks that
Re:H1B wages (Score:3)
Most (if not all) of the sweat shops based in the US depend on holding something over the workers. Otherwise, the workers would just go and get a better job. In semi-skilled and unskilled work, they hire illegal aliens. In skilled and tech work, they use H1-B and hold the green card application over their heads (not all companies of course, but plenty apparently do).
The solution is to remove the extortion. In the tech case, make the H1-B portable to any tech position with little or no paperwork required to change jobs. In the case of unskilled and semi-skilled work, allow anybody (illegal or not) who can show current employment to get a temporary work permit. Then watch as the sweat shop operators swallow their own tongues when the realise that without their extortion, their 'employees' are free to report them to the authorities.
Re:H1B wages (Score:2)