Compaq sees Linux as selling Alpha chips 137
phlebas writes "Cnet news has an article about how "Compaq Computer sees Linux as a way to increase sales of its Alpha microprocessor, and the company is trying to encourage other Linux distributors besides Red Hat to support the chip." They ar also plannig to "soon introduce new pricing geared to encourage Linux users to "step up" from Intel to Alpha chips." Maybe after all i'll be able to get one those in my lifetime " I think it's pretty clear that Linux is the way for Compaq's to really push the Alpha-let's hope they actually do it.
Alpha (Score:1)
try this
http://www.digital.com/alphaserver/
Is there profit in Digital Unix? (Score:1)
money they save can become a capital investment in chip fabricators. Intel has the big chip fab investments today, which is why they
have such a price/performance ratio. If Compaq sinks money into chip fabs, and does it well, they can again drop the price of an Alpha
Didn't Digital sell their fabs to Intel? I suppose that gives them a nice clean slate to build fabs for the next generation of 2xx64 chips, but I thought they wanted to be out of the production business.
Besides, Samsung makes Alphas, and though they might not be on the NASDAQ, Samsung is _huuuuuge_..
Compaq and Wafer Fabs (Score:1)
Conventional wisdom says you have to be IBM sized to run your own fabs. There are rumors that Compaq wants its own fab - they want to be IBM's size - but the best way to do that would be to pick up a state of the art chip manufacturer such as AMD, rather than build their own from sctratch.
Visit www.alphalinux.org (Score:1)
AlphaPowered,
Peter Petrakis
--
www.alphalinux.org
ppetrakis@alphalinux.org
Best place for Alpha Linux (Score:1)
Agreed on fortran. (Score:1)
We keep our fingers crossed that DEC will port f90 to Linux, but I think they will be reluctant to give up their DEC Unix license fees. However, with Compaq pushing Linux on its low-end alphas, it might not be too long before they see some benefits on high end workstations.
Alpha ... isn't anything special. No not at 233! (Score:2)
Is there profit in Digital Unix? (Score:4)
The problem with this is that you have to spend a tremendous R&D budget "keeping up with the Joneses". If you don't, you're selling a second-rate OS and thus a second-rate platform. Realize that this is R&D _just to tread water_, not to gain share.
This problem is made worse by the fact that Linux is already ported to Alphas. The "Joneses" have a tremendous R&D budget, measured in terms of engineering hours as opposed to dollars. Compaq is likely unable to keep Digital Unix up with Linux.
The worst part is that, if they keep developing Digital Unix to compete with Linux on their own platform, they split the application base. Some shops won't be able to afford to port to two Alpha platforms. The application base splits, the user base splits, and you again lose market share.
Pushing Linux is the perfect solution for Compaq. Sure, they lose their OS revenue. They also drop a huge R&D budget, merge the Alpha Unix user base into one critical mass, and assure them that they will have a state-of-the-art OS, regardless of Compaq's corporate decisions. They can also direct their attention to selling _hardware_ versus _hardware and OS_. The OS will take care of itself. They also drop the price of an Alpha to the point where people can seriously consider putting it on their desktop _and_ their backend servers.
They can still sell support contracts at a higher rate than any other support organization, because they have the Name and because they sell the hardware. They can produce new hardware drivers cheap, by pre-releasing specs to select groups of users. And the R&D money they save can become a capital investment in chip fabricators. Intel has the big chip fab investments today, which is why they have such a price/performance ratio. If Compaq sinks money into chip fabs, and does it well, they can again drop the price of an Alpha. They can increase sales volume and margin simultaneously.
In short, Compaq loses a direct source of revenue by pushing Linux. They also lose a lot of indirect costs and market share, and stand to make more profit in other ways by pushing Linux. Trust me, the dollar signs say that they're doing the right thing.
sunk cost (Score:1)
Actually this is a common economic misconception. An economist would say this is a sunk cost. It is money that has already been spent and cannot be recovered, and therefore it should not be a factor in considering future investments. The MBA's at Compaq surely know this. The point is that Compaq will only continue putting money into Alpha if they think they can make a profit on it (technically, if the project has a positive net present value: the discounted value of future income minus cost.)
sorry, i'm waxing pedantic just to prove to myself that i actually learned something when i tortured myself with all those econ classes.
--ccg
chad at glendenin dot org
Alphalinux just plain rules. (Score:1)
It's almost as good at rendering pages as Netscape, is actually a little faster than Netscape, and the only thing lacking is Java support.
hope compaq reads this. (Score:1)
not). lots of people buy alphas for linux. intel
helped cygnus optimize gcc for intel. those
looking for compiler performance will know this.
it speaks louder than trying to sell the dec
compiler for linux (somehow i suspect thats what you want to do) another compiler is a hard sell on
very GNUish platforms. do the same thing, youll
recover the costs in selling alphas alot faster than in sales of your super optimizing compiler.
compaq has the best catering service i have ever
seen!
fortran and Linux (Score:1)
BeOS on Alpha (Score:1)
Might it really have something to do with Intels "investment" in Be?
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
fortran (Score:2)
In applications for which Fortran is appropriate, performance tends to count. When we bought the dual PII linux box last year, we paid about $10k for the box, and another $1k for absoft fortran (a cray derivative), imsl, and a set of multiprocesor libraries. Had there been a free alternative, we probably still would have bought this over a 10% difference in performance--and it's much more than that. Also, we need F90 features, and could have used F95 (there's places that i have to write several lines of F90 to duplicate F95 features, and I'd kill for true arrays of pointers).
Then again, what we *really* want is Digital Fortran for Linux. It sounds like they're working on it in house, but haven't decided whether to go ahead. Had it been available, we probably wouldn't have even looked at any of the alternatives.
/flamebait{}
Open source meant absolutely nothing to us in this decision. We took linux for it's stability (ok, and I probably wouldn't have agreed to work for him if it meant I had to use NT
We needed the most bang for the bucks he'd been budgetted, and on a stable system. The choices came down to linux x86, alpha linux (too risky a year ago), and alpha DU. Given the prices that month, the x86 with linux was the best choice. Though it's a pity we couldn't have waited another month (the money would have gone *poof*), as we had to take 333's since a dual MB for 100mhz wasn't out yet
And for the record, we're tickled pink with Absoft. The tech support is spectacular; usually by the next day, and frequently the same day if we write in the morning. I even got a message back from they're tech support after I posted a question (thought it was general F90) in comp.languages.fortran. The real kicker: their tech support gets back to us every time faster than NAG sales ever got back [I've been told since then that NAG tech support is also faster than NAG sales. I have no idea how you stay in business that way.
/end flamebait for "GPL uber alles" crowd
Compaq (DEC) donated to Debian! (Score:1)
For this, Compaq should be congratulated for. I hope they help out free software more in the future.
Compaq/Alpha (Score:1)
The LDP [unc.edu] lists many vendors which sell Alpha Linux systems.
Digital Unix? (Score:2)
For people who need servers, though, they'll still be able to sell DU licenses, because DU does have some features that Linux lacks. For example, Digital's Fortran compiler is a lot better than g77. That's still important for people who need to support lots of legacy code.
So they gain in the home market, without hurting their server market too much. Well worth it.
Also worth noting is that Alphas have been available with NT for years now. Embracing NT probably dropped more DU licenses than Linux would, and NT doesn't gain you much of anything on the home front.
Netscape Alpha-Linux How-To (Score:1)
I bought Alpha because of Linux. (Score:1)
I would never have comsidered buying this system for the likes of Winbloze NT (Neutered Technology)
I have to say that I'm EXTREMELY happy with the system.
Alphas are dead chips anyway - arn't they? (Score:1)
The CPU/fan thing... (Score:1)
http://www.microway.com/ (Score:2)
Now I think you should check on that CPU fan thing though. Mine has a honking HUGE fan on it! And, well... All CPU's use IRQ's, it's just up to the BIOS/Operating System, as to how they are implemented. You are correct in that my board assignes an IRQ to a slot though, not a peripheral.
Other distributions? (Score:1)
I was a little surprised when I read this so I checked SuSE, PHT and Caldera but no, it really seems like only Debian and RedHat supports the Alpha. Or is there specialised Alpha distributions hiding somewhere?
Compilers (Score:2)
http://www.dcginc.com (Score:2)
Not bad.
Gotta call 'em about buying just parts tho.
--
As long as each individual is facing the TV tube alone, formal freedom poses no threat to privilege.
Digital Unix? (Score:1)
If memory serves, SGI gave these costs as one of the reasons for sponsering Linux/MIPS development.
They make money from the hardware not the software (Score:1)
Some info on building a Multia/UDB for Linux (Score:1)
Get the Compaq math libraries (Score:1)
http://www.alphalinux.org (Score:1)
Alphalinux just plain rules. (Score:1)
What about real compilers? What about them? (Score:1)
Compaq donated their math library to the Linux community (check www.alphalinux.org for the link to it), which provides at least twice the floating point performance as the GNU libm. I'm using it on almost every math-intense software on my system right now.
The only directly Linux on the Alpha platform has is straight ahead. Things are only going to get better, especially in light of the speculated failures of Intel products (Merced).
BSD on Alpha (Score:1)
My system is a PWS 500 with both SRM and AlphaBIOS installed, though the hardware is of course only supported by AlphaBIOS. Here's my understanding of the free BSD "situation" when it comes to Alphas:
There are some copyright issues with CMU which have "tied up" the NetBSD alpha port. I only say this because I witnessed a short "flamefest" on the FreeBSD-axp list in which some NetBSD folks cried foul about some code used, and threatened to call their lawyer friends at CMU about it. What I speak is true - look it up on Dejanews if you care to. I also believe this is the reason OpenBSD "abandoned" their alpha port, see their page for more details.
I think that copyright issue is the one major hinderance to free BSD on the alpha platform. I am, however, very pleased to see the FreeBSD port moving along, and planning to add support for ARC/AlphaBIOS firmware this year. Having worked in a predominately SysV environment for a few years now, I doubt I'd be happy going back to BSD - but I still am very happy to see FreeBSD's progress.
Bang on strategy, Compaq! (Score:1)
Check out www.alphalinux.org - it's a group dedicated to seeing Linux on the Alpha platform continue into the future.
Various Notes--And Where's NetBSD? (Score:1)
NetBSD alpha port is held up by various copyright "issues" involving CMU - this is why the OpenBSD alpha port is supposibly dead. I do remember a blitzkrieg of flamage on the FreeBSD-axp list a while back when the FBSD crew used source code from NBSD without asking, and two or three people threatened to "call our lawyer friends at CMU" on the issue.
What's the real story on this?
Netscape Alpha-Linux How-To (Score:1)
Compile a kernel with UFS support and mount your Digital Unix 4.x media. You need the following
files:
/etc/sia/[matrix.conf & siainitgood]
/etc/svc.conf
/sbin/loader
/usr/shlib/*
All you do is copy these files into the same locations on your Linux filesystem, and you're ready to run Digital Unix 4.x binaries.
An almost worthless troll. (Score:1)
Everything is about location, location, location. The market target for Alpha systems is not really the home user per se, but it may become as speeds increase (~1200Mhz by the end of the year) and prices drop.
A good site (Score:2)
It's officially funded by Compaq (DEC), and usually has better information than the other places.
Compaq will never be 100% behind Alpha (Score:1)
Any IT manager worth their salt is going to know better than to throw big money at a vendor's stepchild architecture.
Compilers (Score:1)
More to do with Alpha's target market. (Score:1)
Might it really have something to do with Intels "investment" in Be?
I doubt it. Alpha systems are mainly used for research and as servers; BeOS is intended for personal use for people doing multimedia-related design. There just isn't any overlap. As far as Be is concerned, there is no market for an Alpha port of BeOS.
If Alphas actually do start showing up on desktops in quantity, then this will probably change. I know *I'd* like one.
A syntactical question (Score:1)
Alpha with Linux isn't anything special. (Score:1)
As a workstation it sucks; the only stable web browser I know of is the KDE browser. I did run it for a while, but KDE is a dog on alpha.
Installation was also a pain... without comp.os.linux.alpha I'd have never gotten past the initial install issues and X configuration.
I'd say if you have an Alpha sitting around or you can get one for next to nothing, do it. I wouldn't recommend spending a lot of money on a machine as your workstation unless you need the computational power and are prepared to write or modify applications so they will run. Don't expect it to be easy.
Digital Unix? (Score:1)
Let's face it - Apple can make the margins that it does because of the operating system, not because the box is blue. There's nothing that special about apple hardware.
(Anti-Apple flame retardant -just because schools and new users like MacOS doesn't mean you have to.)
--
Is there profit in Digital Unix? (Score:2)
Don't forget the Compaq braintrust really only understands selling hardware and selling services.
DU helps them in the short term because it gets them in the door for the big unix-based datacenter market (along with Sun, HP, IBM), but if a couple years Linux/Alpha can get them in there, I don't see much of a future for Tru64.
Apparently Compaq is treating the VMS community like a redheaded stepchild. Unlike DEC, Compaq will probably much quicker to drop their legacy base when it suits them.
--
Alpha (Score:1)
The things I heard that really struck me as cool is the lack of CPU fan and the lack of IRQs (devices are referred to by slot?).
--
Paranoid
Compaq/Alpha (Score:1)
--
Paranoid
low-cost Alpha hardware (Score:1)
You're better off with an AS200 or something like that, if you're looking in this price range. If you want something with modern performance, however, you'll need to get a 21164 running at a reasonably high speed (433 MHz or above).
cjs
BSD on Alpha (Score:1)
cjs
Various Notes--And Where's NetBSD? (Score:1)
You, on the other hand, not only cannot come up with any record of messages that back up your statements, but can't even get the name of the FreeBSD mailing list or port right! (It's the "alpha" port and mailing list, not "axp".)
So unless you can come up with something more than argument by unsubstantiated assertion, I think we can lay this to rest.
cjs
What schools? (Score:1)
What schools? (Score:1)
Cool (Score:1)
I think you're wrong. (Score:1)
Compilers (Score:1)
Is there profit in Digital Unix? (Score:1)
Look at the price difference between the two alternatives: DU with SRM console, Linux with ARC console. Now tell me where they make their huge profit?
Better to rip it away and sell them cheaper. Hell, if DEC had aggresively pushed Alpha workstations with Linux (in my country) a couple of years back I guarantee we had been an Alpha workstation company now, instead of Sun/SGI..
TA
Compaq/Alpha (Score:1)
Samsug makes most Alpha chips and Alpha motherboards are available to anyone who wants to pay for them.
Poor compiler performance hurts Alpha Linux (Score:1)
Alpha gets the job done. 'nuff said. (Score:1)
at least midway thru 2003, in Q4 99' they will have a 1.2 Gz chip coming out. Gartner Group
just put out a piece detailing all the UNIX/PC
harware plans thru 2003, and Alpha is ahead at
every checkpoint. If YOU want 64 bit that flies NOW, why fart around? Sure DUNIX makes em' more
money, but it costs more too, if they can sell MORE chips because of Linux, believe me they will
Compaq + Dec are HARDWARE outfits with services
NOT software outfits. If I was running an IT shop
or a medium+ internet shop I'd ONLY spend money on
Alpha + Linux + Oracle, everything else be damned.
low-cost Alpha hardware (Score:1)
I don't work for these people, but I did just order one of these boxes. I know a few people who use them for Linux and speak highly of them. And you can't beat the price.
low-cost Alpha hardware (Score:1)
What's an AS200? Where would I find one?
cdj
Alphas, Compaq, & Linux - I have tested the latest (Score:1)
I think I was the only person who did, because
everyone else used digital unix or NT. It was,
by far, the fastest Linux system I've ever used.
I have another ev6 system coming in this week.
Just one stat: BogoMips=890
Would Compaq be better off opening DEC *NIX? (Score:1)
IMNSHO, Compaq/Digital will _HAVE_ to make their compilers available reasonably if they ever want to see Alpha take off. I'd spend $200 or so for a C/C++ compiler suite from Digital for an alpha, but I'd also like that compiler suite to be able to target, say, OpenBSD/Alpha.
--Corey
Alphas are dead chips anyway - arn't they? (Score:1)
I expect Compaq just want to sell off their old stock of Alpha chips...
fortran and Linux (Score:1)
What I have found on my codes is that small (actually tiny) problems run well on pentia. But reasonable research sized problems cause it to huff and puff. Machines like the alpha or the R10k (and R12k) kick serious butt on the larger problem sizes. What is just insanely cool is to watch your code (efficiently) use all 32 processors, and get something like a 28-30x speedup.
But, as I said, I am biased.
Back to fortran. Jeff Templon has an excellent page [uga.edu] on Linux and Fortran. Better is the big [fortranlib.com] fortran link page. This is really a nice resource and is a nice intro to the general Fortran Market [fortran.com] setup by Walt Brainerd. I strongly advise visiting this site if you need to think Fortran.
Ok, now some thoughts. Craig Burley and crew have done a positively bang up job on g77. It is IMO a useful productive research tool... with a caveat or two.
First, it really is just a front end to the gcc back end, so there are many... gcc-isms... floating about.
Second, while optimization is OK, it is generally tied to the gcc optimization, which has traditionally not been very good. The egcs [cygnus.com] project has had a much better track record on getting real optimization into the compiler. Folks, if your runs can take years, 5% DOES matter. Optimization on pentia is not just -O, you need things like
-O3 -malign-double -malign-functions=2 -funroll-loops -ffast-math
among others for decent performance.
Third, and most important for me, it (nor egcs) knows nothing whatsoever about multiprocessing.
In short, g77 and egcs in general are awesome tools. But unless you work on small problems, they are not suitable. You will need some better tools, and that involves passing over some money in this case.
I like the Portland Group [pgroup.com] tools, though the KAI [kai.com] tools are effectively identical to what you use on big supers like Origins. Unfortunately, I do not think KAI supports Linux any longer. Maybe we can all write them a nice letter on how they could drop support for some underused platform for computation (some come to mind here
As the author of the referant article wrote, most fortran users want all the speed they can get, so you need to look at what your code spends the most time doing, and figure out if it is doing it the right and most efficient way, or if your system is correctly designed for speed, or if you are hitting one area of your system really hard, and thus causing a bottleneck. In short, if you need to design for speed, start out with a workstation design, and not a PC design. You likely will need massive memory and IO bandwidth to complement an insanely fast CPU. Putting an Alpha into a PC architecture should be considered a capital crime. It makes much more sense to put it into something like a DS20, a T3E or some other design (I can fantasize about an Alpha in an Octane or an Origin, that would be a complete screamer... a memory and IO bus capable of feeding the processor at its full speed... shudder).
The language and its implementation are important, but so is the fundamental system design. You need to avoid bottlenecks everywhere.
Joe
Digital Unix? (Score:1)
Bang on strategy, Compaq! (Score:1)
I suggested that strategy to my former employer, but they didn't follow it, continued to (try to) sell on price/performance and went bust about three months after I left, having sold five machines.
Shame, 'cos I enjoyed playing with 500MHz Alphas.
Alphas are dead chips anyway - arn't they? (Score:1)
Compilers (Score:1)
In grad school I did some analysis on this subject and there is probably a 30% difference on average between -O5 output from the dec compiler and the best egcs can make.
Without a compiler, the alpha is a fairly uninteresting system. Intel chips, PowerPC chips and Sparcs can out perform it but with a good compiler it can hang with anybody.
Alpha gets the job done. 'nuff said. (Score:1)
the system that best solves their problem.
this "vendor's stepchild architecture" happens to be the best platform for doing hardcore computational biology and high-throughput bioinformatics. Sun? too slow. HP? no software.
SGI? good but expensive and I don't need floating point performance. Linux? cool and has potential but I want a system that can handle 12GB RAM.
I'm a huge fan of Digital Unix on alpha. Fast, easy to maintain/admin and not super expensive. I've bought $1M+ worth of their stuff for my group every year for the past several years.
It's all relative though. I know my systems are going to be replaced frequently as faster systems come on the market. Who knows what kind of systems I'll be using a year or two from now...I'll go with the best stuff available at the time. You raise a valid point though-- If I was planning on larger scale purchases with longer expected service times I'd really want to be sure of Compaq's support for the platform. That said though, the more Merced gets delayed, the better Alpha looks.
-chris
Digital Unix runs 25% faster than Linux on Alpha. (Score:1)
There's nothing to stop Compaq releasing their compilers for alpha linux though, which is a win for them because they can still make money selling good compilers, without all of the R&D involved in writing the entire OS.
An almost worthless troll. (Score:1)
So far, the only cheap Alphas I see going around are those old clunky "It's almost as fast as my near-dead P100" things... possibly a neat way to explore the architecture for cheap, but not quite in the same league in terms of bang:buck ratio as what's out there in the x86 world now.
I'm no fan of the PC platform -- hell, I'm getting mighty tired of it, having used PCs since 1981 -- but you can't beat the kind of volume that the x86 moves for creating good honest market pressure. Commodity hardware is a good thing.
A syntactical question (Score:1)
I've always known code as a collective noun: "Our code is poorly commented, but it sure is fast." But I have seen the term codes used occasionally in a way that appears awkward to me, as in this quote.
I would have said "We know our code runs about..." and thought it more natural. Where does this usage of codes stem from? One generally associates the term "codes" with, for example, a series of cryptographic codes; and "code" as program code.
An almost worthless troll. (Score:1)
Yes, the tool-fit is vastly more important that overall performance, and at least in my (fairly common) case, x86 is a win. Don't get me wrong, I'll be excited to see the Alpha descend into the mass market, but it's certainly not there yet.
Sounds like a winner. (Score:1)
A syntactical question (Score:1)
Digital Unix? (Score:1)
There's a lot more money to be made licensing Digital Unix than Linux (be it RedHat or whatever)...
I don't think it's clearcut...
High End/"Enthusiast" (Score:1)
The enthusiast market, myself included, would... and we would want Linux... I can't see myself with any compelling need for DU...
Point duly noted
Digital Unix runs 25% faster than Linux on Alpha. (Score:1)
- nr
They need to push it as a good WinNT workstation. (Score:1)
- nr
Alphas are dead chips anyway - arn't they? (Score:1)
Compaq has committed to continued development of the Alpha line and has just released the next level system. Their new 21264 based systems are the fastest thing running today.
Visit Compaq at http://www.compaq.com or at http://www.digital.com for more info on the new Alpha's.
D. Keith Higgs
CWRU. Kelvin Smith Library
Compaq & Linux. Makes sense. (Score:2)
Promoting GNU/Linux to the point that new installations go there instead of to other 'nix's helps Compaq get back to what the really want to do anyway. Ultimately, they downsize the software part of the business and keep a smaller coding force on hand to continue 'nix development for GNU/Linux solutions.
As for finding Alpha systems cheap,look at places like WebAuction (run by Micro/PC/MAC Warehouse) for deals. I picked up an Alpha box from them for $350, added 4.6GB HD, 24X CD-ROM, 128MB additional RAM, 17" Monitor, 56K/V90 external Dava/Voice/Fax modem, NT4 Workstation, MS Office Pro, and the Alpha firmware for a total cost under $2500 by shopping the web and local computer shows.
D. Keith Higgs
CWRU. Kelvin Smith Library
linpack is linear algebra (Score:1)
Other distributions? (Score:1)
Goto http://www.alphalinux.org for more information
What about real compilers? (Score:1)
Alpha ... isn't anything special. No not at 233! (Score:1)
Where can I get this deal?
Compaq/Alpha (Score:1)
OEM products are done through Samsung by way of Alpha Processor, INC. (API). They are bulding new motherbaords and OEM solutions.
I would take a look at our site if you want to know more. www.alphalinux.org
-Barrett
http://www.alphalinux.org (Score:1)
Alpha is not just a Compaq/Digital thing, it is a superscaler open industry standard 64-Bit RISC based architecture that is engineered by Compaq and manufactured in volume by Samsung Electronics, Mitsubishi, and their *subsidiaries*.
Some of the best advancements might happen much further awawy from Compaq itself.
A lot of the Alpha push is not only from Compaq but the subsidiaries of Samsung and Mitsubishi.
-Barrett
Compaq/Alpha (Score:1)
Digital made and sold OEM products also, so when Digital merged with Compaq they contnued these products but they not seem to have the focus to sell a lot of OEM. Thus the Alpha OEM market will be done by others.
Compilers (Score:1)
software (Redhat 5.2, EGCS 1.1.1 etc.) and with essentially the same memory and disk space and the PII can usually compile something in half the time of the Alpha.
If Intel is funding Cygnus to optimize for KNI and Merced why can't Compaq do the same for Alpha?
Alphas a great (Score:1)