Digital DJ Turntable 197
Daniel Gomez-Ibanez writes "I made a digital turntable - it stores digital audio and plays it back like a record player. This lets you scratch the audio from a CD. I like it because there's no 'computer' involved- a four year old can figure it out. There's a description here." Daniel also has a more descriptive web page on the inspiration and design of this beast.
Finally! (Score:1, Funny)
No on 15! Come on, we really mean it!
Re:Finally! (Score:2, Informative)
Kinda like in Batman II? (Score:1, Troll)
It always bugged me how Batman then 'scratched' the CD as if it were a record (which obviously is not possible)
Makes me wonder if this project was based on the same 'annoyance' and wanted to make something that would work.
Re:Kinda like in Batman II? (Score:1)
Re:Kinda like in Batman II? (Score:2)
The cool thing with that setup was that you could needle drop anywhere into the track, in addition to using whichever player you had at hand.
Of course, I imagine they are dead in the water, what with the proliferation of BeOS platforms to run on and what not.
Re:Kinda like in Batman II? (Score:1)
Umm... it's been possible for years... it's done in buffer.
Not only does the CDJ-1000 do it (like the previous poster mentioned)... the Pioneer CMX-3000 does it, along with the Denon DN-2100F, DN-2600F, DN-D9000, the American DJ PRO Scratch 1 and CMX, along with the Numark CDN-88 and Axis 8. IMHO, only Pioneer and Denon make rock-solid products, but I know I must be leaving some out!
Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:3, Interesting)
How did you create the scratch effect?
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:1)
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:1)
However, vinyl will remain that "real" Dj's preferred media. As has been stated before, vinyl is sexy. Some dude standing in front of a crowd twiddling his fingers to mix tracks will never replace guys working the wheels of steel.
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:4, Interesting)
Vinyl will continue to be the medium of choice, though, because most house and trance songs just aren't available on CD. And you can see the musical progression on a record, so you can easily line up phrases (32-measures) and see where breaks are without the need to completely know a song 64 measures ahead.
What it comes down to is the quality of mixes you can create on each medium. You can create a much better experience, as a dj, if you can see the grooves and know where the climaxes and breaks are with relation to the needle. Until you can do that with CDs (with some visualization firmware), and until decent tracks are released on CD, vinyl will remain.
That said, going to good clubs you still see greats like Tiesto and van Dyk using CDs for about 15-25% of the tracks they play.
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:3, Interesting)
Clubbing is my profession, I shoot for a local nightlife guide [cooljunkie.com]...
A lot of top DJs use CDs, since they get a lot of new material that way...some of those tracks you hear are on CD, because the artist cannot afford to get vinyl pressed at the moment..also, consider Tenaglia, who does 15 hour sets on average..can you imagine toting around 15 hrs worth of vinyl?!?
Certain other DJs, notably Erick Morillo and Steve Lawler, use the CD player as a sampler of sorts, carrying all their samples and noise on CDs...crobar South Beach just got equipped with CDJ-1000s, and with their response time and effects banks, they are quite akin to a true sampler from what I can see.
Vinyl has it's merits, certainly. Real clubs demand it. Your average "clubgoer" in Buttfuck, MI is not 'educated' enough to care, but in a big city with a true nightlife, vinyl, as well as a sophisticated CD deck like the 1000, is not only expected, but is demanded...
Vinyl vs. CD cueing (Score:2)
As for making it so you can identify phrasing and such, I always wondered how hard it would be to add a new type of packet to the Ogg (or some other) format, so that you can store uncompressed audio (or 320 kbit compressed for the super poor DJ's who can't afford to burn a lot of CD's yet...) in the file, along with beat and sample information for each audio frame. A playback program or digital turntable could read this information and build a visualization chart that looks something like
[Insert here the best ASCII art interface diagram ever that the lameness filter wouldn't pass through no matter how much I varied the characters -- see my
At any rate, I've always wanted to try my hand at spinning some tracks, I've made some loop-based songs before (using my own loops that I created). What's the best way to start learning to DJ?
Re:Vinyl vs. CD cueing (Score:2, Interesting)
When you buy dance vinyl, there are at most two tracks on side of a 12" (and usually, there is only one). This means that the grooves are spaced quite far apart, so that the whole track takes up a lot of space. It is then quite easy to spot the breakdowns and different parts of the track.
BTW: Dance LPs aren't LPs in the old sense, with 30 mins per side. Dance LP's contain multiple pieces of vinyl, with one or two tracks per side.
As for learning to DJ, just buy a pair of turntables, a mixer, headphones and some records, and practice, practice practice! Stick with Technics 1200's if you can afford them as they are the industry standard. I don't have any recommendations on cheaper turntables.
Recess's DJ Hints [recess.co.uk] is a useful resource for learning how to mix.
Re:Vinyl vs. CD cueing (Score:2)
Re:Vinyl vs. CD cueing (Score:2)
That being said, attempting to get certain organizations [riaa.com] to mass-produce said file type and push to get it to a more universal and high-quality source (Not like it's not already there [relaypoint.net]) would seem to be a bit futile... Radio DJs give enough exposure to commercial music than to want to bend to the will of Production-oriented DJs like Hawtin. There's enough tracklisters [pauloakenfold.com] who promote the music to the lowest common denominator to distribute the music appropriately.
Kay. I gotta stop posting drunk. Did that just make any sense?
Re:Vinyl vs. CD cueing (Score:2)
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:2)
The reason the big DJs are sometimes using CD is bacause, although like you say most tunes are only available commercially on vinyl, before it's pressed up it comes from the studio on CDR. The big names need the NEWEST and LATEST stuff, traditionally this would have been supplied on an acetate, but those cost a fortune and only last a few plays.
Ask any real DJ if they actually prefer CD, and they'll look at you very strangely
Re:Scratching isn't simply sped up audio (Score:2)
The CDJ1000 has several visual indicators that can give you some of these clues. There is a slow and fast indicator around the central wheel indicating position on the track. There is the "wave data" stuff on top that gives you the relative intensity of each part of the track (you can zoom upto x4, but the interface isn't very good and it scans pretty slow). Finally there is always the time/frame index.
Of course there's a gread deal of room for growth with these features. You've given me a new look at some vinyl features that the CDJ doesn't quite have yet.
"...giving good finger sticktion." (Score:1)
not the real feeling (Score:1)
Re:not the real feeling (Score:1)
You can't do that with CD. With CDs you have to memorize the offsets of all the breaks and drops. It makes mixing music a lot more difficult and for the most part, the quality diminishes. However, when DJs have their own songs, they commonly use CDs because they know the songs so well already, and they don't want to deal with the deteriorating quality that records have.
Software could fix this.. (Score:2)
If someone would incorporate this technology into a program like AtomixMP3 (yes -- you'd need to build the waveform graphs ahead of time in a database) then I don't see why this would be a problem.
Most of the big club DJs aren't taking requests -- they could get their music collection prescanned on a computer...
AtomixMP3 (Score:2)
Re:AtomixMP3 (Score:2)
ah (Score:2)
Have you ever tried using Mixmeister?... (Score:2)
Acid drives me crazy because it insists on drawing the stereo waveform which just doesn't give me the same visual feedback.. I wish there was a way (or I knew how) to get it to display in mono...
How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:5, Informative)
Final Scratch, uses a hybrid of actual turntables and digital audio. You use a pair of special vinyl records, connect the audio out of the turntables into this strange USB device which controls the software that allows you to cue/scratch mp3s...
It was only available for systems running BeOS, but they are branching out with Mac OS/Win32 and Linux versions.. You only need a 'standard' DJ setup, two turntables and a two line mixer.. it's insanely cool.. the only downside is the price, $500USD, but thats relatively cheap to a stack of vinyl, or your Technics 1200's.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, Final Scratch is Linux-based. The install CD comes with a bare-bones linux distro and partitioning utils to get you started. Alternately, you can just put the final scratch software on any laptop that already has linux installed. Oh, and you still need a good set of direct-drive tables to use it effectively (1200's or something comparable, i.e. Vestax PDX-2000's, Stanton STR8-100's, etc.).
I should also note that the Pioneer CDJ-1000 [pioneerprodj.com] has beaten this home-brew to the punch. It has pitch-adjust and a substantial jog-wheel that is actually adequate for scratching. DJ Nu-Mark and Cut Chemist have been using CDJ-1000s in their live shows for some time, now.
The CDJ-1000 has the benefit of almost zero latency and no skipping. On the other hand, you can drop-cue in final scratch, and its "record box" categorization system is very convenient (and 3 ms of latency is not too bad). You can also plug your final scratch system into pretty much any club setup. Lugging around CDJ-1000's is not so easy.
Review of CDJ-1000 (Score:2)
I've heard nothing but good things about these. They're supposed to feel just like vinyl. Of course, for over a grand, they damn well better.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:4, Informative)
* cd buffering to memory is too slow, making it hard to do extremely quick seeks and scratch off of a randomly selected point you seeked to on the disk. Note you can do this using the hot-queues, but that's because each hot queue holds a small buffer of it's own.
* the rapid seek function is not as smooth as even the CDJ100
* too few queue points, you need a direct song map or multiple queue points so that you can approach a "needle drop" skill on a digital TT
I should note that very few players offer the true control of the CDJ1000. Even tho the platter doesn't spin pressure on the platter halts and resumes play. I haven't touched the Dannon yet, but none of the other Pioneer DTT's do this.
DJ's generally HATE anything but vinyl. DJing is a community of luddites. Final scratch is a step towards what they like, but the sample rate and resolution of mp3's and even CD's are not rich enough to completely match the performance of analog records passed through effects and slowed down. Perhaps with a next generation DTT with DVD-A support.
Of course this begs the question that most audio is produced in the studio at 48khz so what would DVD-A do for you that a better interpolation algorithm wouldn't?
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:3, Insightful)
IMHO calling them that is unfair since the supposedly new and improved technology can't do something the old technology can.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:2)
just like it's possible for a master craftsman to make a finer sculpture with a hammer and chizel rather than a chainsaw
vinyl has applications that DTT's can't match, but technology like what's introduced in this article is making that last 5% shrink all the time.
finally I feel justified in calling DJ's luddites because they view anything that makes the tasks they mastered easier to do with disdain... no matter how much is added to the performer's range of options or how many new skills need to be mastered to use the new device, many still view CDJ's as "posers" and "not sexy" and "wouldn't pay to see that"
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:2)
Yeah but as we all know, those "other" kinds of DJs aren't DJs at all, they're just guys who play records
Personally, I think the final scratch thing looks amazing, I'd love to try it. But $500 plus a laptop? Hmm...pricey. I'd like to play with the CDJ1000 too, but I can't imagine switching to anything CD based right now.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:2)
you're right... club and scratch DJ's are the luddites there
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:2)
Technics -> Slackware
Stanton -> RedHat
Numark -> SuSe
not sure what would match up with Debian... turn tables aren't that advanced
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
To be more exact on this. Beos is no longer being used as the os of choice sense palm bought them. They now use an embeded version of linux for windows. As for the mac...I would assume that it will just use OS X to run sense it is unix. We will not be sure because there has been no anouncements for the mac as of yet.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
But you can't get any decent house/trance/dnb music on CD. At least not in a timely basis. Look at the BBC Dance Charts [bbc.co.uk]. You can only get about 20% of those songs on CD. And probably only 10% of the current "hot" remix. But at the right stores you can get 80-90% of them on vinyl right now. So even though a CD set-up is cheaper than a vinyl set-up, you can't do nearly as much with it.
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How about a real Digital Tuntable? (Score:1)
john acquaviva... (Score:2)
cool, but... is it useful? (Score:1)
or, there's final scratch [finalscratch.com], which uses timecode records to manipulate audio.. so you could use any old deck to "spin" digital audio.
still, cool idea.
Love some of the other stuff, but... (Score:1)
There was a TV program called "better by design" here in the UK about 1998 (I think) where a pair of industrial designers had to improve everyday products, coming up with a range of alternatives, one of which was (go on, guess) ... a vibrating razor.
Got a URL now :) (Score:1)
1998? (Score:2)
BWAHAHA HAHAHA (Score:2)
Yawn. (Score:1)
Re:Yawn. (Score:1)
Re:Yawn. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not pretending that I understood everything this guy did, it still looks like an improvement over the current "digital turntables"
Re:Yawn. (Score:1)
Re:Yawn. (Score:2)
On a semi-related note, a Scratch DJ friend of mine got an ADJ t-shirt from relatives for Christmas and everyone constantly bugs him about it. It's just one of those things.
But you can SEE vinyl... (Score:2, Insightful)
Not sure how this would be done digitally, but the guy's design is still a pretty cool exercise in man machine interface design.
FinalScratch? (Score:3, Interesting)
Here's their site. [finalscratch.com]
FinalScratch still needs a CPU (Score:2)
The customized system presented in this story does not require a computer. So while it's great that FinalScratch runs on BeOS, it still requires a computer which is exactly opposite what our story's protagonist aimed to create.
Scratching ... (Score:5, Informative)
Still, it's a damn good idea, and if nothing else (and it's definitely more than this), it would be a kickass gimmick to have on stage with you!
Technology is a good thing...
Re:Scratching ... (Score:2)
Denon and Sony (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Denon and Sony (Score:2, Interesting)
Also see MixMeister / GRAM (Score:3, Informative)
I understand the free GDAM [ffem.org] has similar abilities, but I haven't used it. Any comments from those who have would be appreciated!
Don't forget about these tools: (Score:2)
Mixmeister is better for creating CD compilations -- you can set up tempo, volume, and frequency envelopes in a set up similar to a multitrack recorder. I've used it to make some fun beatmixed compilations.
You can also use more advanced tools like Sonic Foundry Acid Pro which are better w/ loops and effects -- but Acid is sadly missing a tempo envelope tool and it's technology for changing the tempo w/o changing the pitch doesn't seem to be as good as Mixmeister's...
Final Scratch is actually... (Score:3, Informative)
I've played with Final Scratch, Ritchie Hawtin had a hand in it, and it is, without a word of a doubt, incredible. But if you really want to go pure digital, check out the Pioneer CDJ-1000, allows you to save wave data off a CD, store it to an SD card, scratch, cue, add effects, everything. Check it out here [pioneerprodj.com]
Interesting choice of words... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting choice of words... (Score:2)
I have a gifted four year old and know many. None of them are more computer literate than normal adults -- and yes, a four year old WOULD figure out a turntable.
that said -- it WAS a funny comment.
Re:Interesting choice of words... (Score:2)
Re:Interesting choice of words... (Score:2)
The advantage of vinyl over cd/mp3 is all in the interface, which this maintains. He just needs to cram 100 times as much ram in there, to take it from 20 second samples (pretty useless) to 20 minute samples (which will fit any song).
OtsJuke (Score:1)
-dk
The Ultimate Digital DJ table (Score:2, Funny)
Man, I suck.... (Score:2, Funny)
Bottle opener... (Score:1)
terminatorX (Score:3, Interesting)
Holy cow. (Score:1)
Re:Holy cow. (Score:2)
Yawn (Score:1, Troll)
Re:Yawn (Score:2, Insightful)
1) They don't sample and playback which is what this device does
2) The quality of ANYTHING made my American DJ leaves much to be desired. They are the mcdonalds of DJ equipment.
From the site: (Score:4, Funny)
Does this make anyone else wonder where he got it?
Pioneer CDJ-1000 (Score:1)
A very nice machine, to put it lightly.
Wait a second. . . . (Score:2)
Laser Turntable (Score:3, Interesting)
Digital Turntable? It has been done... (Score:3, Interesting)
After seeing this working, I was blown away. I have seen other digital turntable devices, most requiring specially equipped turntables or scratchpads. Serato's system uses a standard turntable, a timecoded vinyl disc and the computer.
Unfortunately it currently only works as a ProTools plugin, but very soon they will be releasing a stand alone version allowing scratcing of MP3s and the like.
[sigh] Forgetful Slashdot (Score:2, Informative)
I know, Troll, Flamebait, Redundant, Stupid.
Got a mouse? Alternately, you could use the sensor of an optical mouse the same way.
http://www.terminatorx.cx/oldtable.html
FinalScratchPro (ok, so it's been delayed for a while...)
http://www.finalscratch.com/fs2/start.
(the pictures show a Stanton turntable, so I'm not 100% irrelevant!)
Still, this is a fairly cool hack, and it's great that he got some credit for it. It just isn't that original. Hell, the fitness machines at the YMCA have a similar sort of rotational tracking sensor. But I guess finding new ways to apply old ideas will keep us impressed for generations to come.
(i'm just jealous that I didn't get to make something like that for school.)
what is original about it... (Score:2)
But it does beg the question of what happens when you scratch FORWARD on a LIVE feed - silence? static? a robot voice saying 'That does not compute'?
This feature already exists on Pro DJ CD players (Score:2, Informative)
I've DJed professionally (on and off) for about 10 yrs and I've seen this turntable project before - back in 1998, I think it was. It was among of the first interesting things I read on the Web. So I'm a bit suprised that it turns up as "News" here on Slashdot. It's a nice hack yes, but not rocket sience, and this feature already exists on most professional DJ CD-players today. The Numark (www.numark.com) players Axis 8 or CDN88 for eg have this feature. They call it Realtime Scratching.
But these players are not shaped as turntables. They have a coaster-sized jog wheel on the CD-player to scratch and move backward and forwards in the song. To have a CD/Mp3-player shaped as a turntable is a bit pointless IMHO. Either you use real vinyl or you dont. You can never get the feel and sound of Vinyl mixing/scatching with CD/MP3 anyway. Vinyl has its advantages - A good vinyl DJ can make very, very cool mixes. CD has it advantages - Smaller, cheaper, lighter, more durable, special functions like beatkeeping and key transpose that you cannot get with a turntable.
Cheers
Interesting to see Stanton logo.. (Score:2)
Stanton bought (aquired??) a major interest in FinalScratch as it was developed by a company in the netherlands (dutch?) n2it.com was the parent, I believe.
Seems Stanton might be trying to corner the market on digital mixing.. then again Finalscratch still requires stylii for the turntable, this solution does not and they don't make money off not selling stylii.
just a though.
DENON DIGITAL (Score:2, Informative)
High-tech music, low-tech play? (Score:2)
Re:dithering razor (Score:1)
Re:dithering razor (Score:3, Funny)
Re:News? (Score:1)
"the patent is already taken by a Swiss guy in 1997"
It's right there in the article. However, I had never heard of this and maybe others haven't either. Calm down. It'll be okay.
"most DJs"? (Score:1, Flamebait)
What on earth can you do as an MP3 DJ? Attempt to poorly beatmatch?
At least you can scratch CDs now [pioneerprodj.com].
- A.P.
Re:"most DJs"? (Score:2)
laugh at one? (Score:2)
The one disadvantage of mp3 or cd is that you can't see the breaks in the vinyl, and the more intimately you know the track the less of a disadvantage that is. And if you're going to choose anything other than vinyl, why go with cd? Cd's have the disadvantages of mp3s (can't see the vinyl grooves) and the disadvantages of records (have to cart around all the physical media). If anyone's curious about mixing mp3's just at home for fun, check out this awesome software [atomixmp3.com] which has really advanced auto-beatmatching capabilities.
Re:"most DJs"? (Score:2)
A guy with a laptop and Winamp with the pitch control plugin gets the gas-face from me, though.
- A.P. (DJing for 13 years now...)
Re:old school (Score:2)
Re:old school (Score:2)
the great analog lie... (Score:2)
time cube (Score:2)
Obviously, this guy has mastered the time cube, and is scratching forward in time.