dot.com Bust Gotcha Down? Try the Gubmint! 291
dsoltesz writes "This coming week is the Government's first Virtual IT Job Fair. A number of agencies are participating, including NASA, the Smithsonian, and the National Gallery of Art. While government jobs aren't exactly the highest paying in the nation, IT positions do rate in a special pay category (see tables 999A-F depending on where you want to work). The online job fair lasts from April 22 to 26, and hopes to fill 230 positions. Here's a quick list of IT Series 2210 specialties, or if you want a little light reading, try the 155 page, 1.7 MB detailed spec."
Nice (Score:2)
Re:Nice (Score:2)
Great (Score:1)
Searching for a job, versus creating one ! (Score:3, Insightful)
One thing that I do not understand is -
Why _searching_ for a job while there are LOTS OF CHANCES that you can create YOUR OWN JOB ?
I mean, the slashdotters who are "unemployed" due to the "dot_com_bust" are people who have the SKILLS 99.999% of the human race don't have - in other words, they are TECHIES, right ?
Now, why waiting for someone to employ you, or even searching for a job, while THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS you can do now !
For instance - CREATING YOUR OWN JOB !
Please do not try to think like the rest of the human population - you are NOT those run-of-the-mill, garden-variety type - you are the one who possess the SKILLS to create.
Why don't you utilize your skill to CREATE your own job ?
If you are skilled in doing 3d animation, for example, instead of waiting for the movie industry or whoever to employ you as their animator, you can START creating VIBRANT ANIMATION, in EXCITING SEQUENCES, share the thing with the world, and you will see people flock to what you have to offer, and they WILL offer you lots of options - including, but not limited to, STARTING YOUR OWN ANIMATION FACTORY !
The above is just an example.
I am speaking from experience here. I'm in the field - the tech field - since early '80s. First I was involved with programming - it was hot then - and when uni started to churn out millions of programming wannabes, I branch into graphics, and when there's too much competitions, I then went into dot-com, and when that's busted, I went into consultation, and so on and so forth.
Don't just wait for others to employ you. EMPLOY YOUR OWN SKILL and CREATE YOUR OWN CAREER !
MAKE MONEY FAST! (Score:2)
But Taco Cowboy has a good point. A software company costs about $75 to start (that's the corporate registration fee in VA), plus the costs of your hardware, food and drink. Shareware is a competitive market to be sure, but all you have to do is sell a relatively small amount in a given month.
If you have the skills, you should really consider this as an option.
Damn it's hard to not sound like a friggin commercial.
Re:Searching for a job, versus creating one ! (Score:2)
Look, the deal was, I do good in school, graduate, and then I could get a job. If I knew it was going to be like this I'd of dropped out of H.S. and started working on my own.
Please stop behaving like the 99.999% ! (Score:2)
You said:
"It would be nice to just create my own job, but when you're scraping by on temp
jobs and avoiding creditors, you can't."
You think I was borned with silver spoon in my mouth ?
You think I never suffer any financial setbacks ?!
I never let my creditors or my present income prevent me from doing what I want to do, especially, if that thing is what I _REALLY_ want to do.
Doing temp jobs is TRANSITIONAL thing, it's NOT permanent. Your sight should not stay within the limit of your nose, rather, you should look BEYOND THE HORIZON.
I mean, this is YOUR LIFE, you get to decide to do with YOUR LIFE. And if you think it's better to WASTE your life on satisfying your creditors' needs, then your life will be just that
And another thing, STARTING a business does NOT cost millions, if you know how to do it.
My advise to you and to all - PLEASE STOP BEHAVING LIKE THE REST (99.999%) OF THEM, because you just ain't them !
Use what you have - your skill, your talent, your will to success, and start doing whatever it is necessary to re-make your life.
Worst come the worst - and I am NOT recommending it, this is just for educational purpose - RUN AWAY FROM YOUR CREDITORS, RUN TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, AND START AFRESH !
After all, whichever country you re-start your life, IT IS STILL YOUR LIFE !
There are LOTS OF PLACES in this world - and there are places in the world where YOUR TALENT and what you know STILL MATTERS A LOT !
If you can't do it in the States, go to China or Bangladesh or Turkey or wherever, where the NEED for your skill is TREMENDOUS, and THEY WILL PAY for what you know !
Trust me - I am speaking from experience - NOT the run away thing, but go OUT of the States to FIND PARADISE elsewhere thing.
Re:Please stop behaving like the 99.999% ! (Score:2)
Actually, I think it's been lodged in your brain from all those self-empowerment books you've been reading. My parents raised me on this crap, I recognise it a mile away.
You think I never suffer any financial setbacks ?!
This is not a setback. I am poor. I've always BEEN poor. There are no reserve cash deposits to tap. No rich friends or relatives to borrow from.
I'm not complaining, I'm telling you that I don't have any wiggle room when it comes to starting my own business. I was counting on getting a real job after going back to college and getting my degree.
I never let my creditors or my present income prevent me from doing what I want to do, especially, if that thing is what I _REALLY_ want to do.
Ok, please let me know what I really want to do. The problem is, even though I have a broad range of life experience and computer experence, my working experence with computers has been limited to an internship and some part-time work. How am I to know what I really want to do from that? I need more exposure to a working enviroment, and I need to work with people more experienced than I.
Doing temp jobs is TRANSITIONAL thing, it's NOT permanent. Your sight should not stay within the limit of your nose, rather, you should look BEYOND THE HORIZON.
Looking to the future is great and all, but I live in the here and now. Look, I've been "Paying my dues" for the express purpose of having a better life, later in life. I'm sick of it. My dues have been paid YEARS ago. I refuse to go to one more damn training class until I get some results from the investments I've already made in myself.
I mean, this is YOUR LIFE, you get to decide to do with YOUR LIFE. And if you think it's better to WASTE your life on satisfying your creditors' needs, then your life will be just that ... - you live NOT for yourself but for your creditors.
Uh, those creditors paid for my food and heat when I couldn't even find a Temp job. I am living for myself, but picking up the habit of screwing over people who lend you money is a "Bad thing".
And another thing, STARTING a business does NOT cost millions, if you know how to do it.
Does it cost a thousand? A hundred? I can't afford that. The money is going for food and rent.
How about time and effort? When exactly should I talk to my customers, while I'm working in the warehouse in my temp job? I know, After a day of manual labor, I'll come home refreshed and productive and bang out the next great program!
My advise to you and to all - PLEASE STOP BEHAVING LIKE THE REST (99.999%) OF THEM, because you just ain't them !
I've noticed. They couldn't modify an excel spreadsheet without help, but They are still employeed.
Use what you have - your skill, your talent, your will to success, and start doing whatever it is necessary to re-make your life.
Get it though your extraordinary thick skull. Whatever "Changes" I do will require me talking to clients which I can't do because I'm working my ass off in temp jobs just to scrape by.
Worst come the worst - and I am NOT recommending it, this is just for educational purpose - RUN AWAY FROM YOUR CREDITORS, RUN TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, AND START AFRESH !
Heh, run away from the most technologically advanced country in the world, and my skills are technical. Life is a game of odds, and the odds are best here. Also, I don't run away.
After all, whichever country you re-start your life, IT IS STILL YOUR LIFE ! There are LOTS OF PLACES in this world - and there are places in the world where YOUR TALENT and what you know STILL MATTERS A LOT !
Then why are the techs in those countries moving HERE?
If you can't do it in the States, go to China or Bangladesh or Turkey or wherever, where the NEED for your skill is TREMENDOUS, and THEY WILL PAY for what you know !
I'm starting to wonder if this is a troll.
Trust me - I am speaking from experience - NOT the run away thing, but go OUT of the States to FIND PARADISE elsewhere thing.
You know, a story on how you became successful would be far more inspirational than all that BS you've been spouting.
Re:Please stop behaving like the 99.999% ! (Score:2)
Dear Terry,
Thank you for the word of support.
I've been through the down times before, many times, and I have decided to STOP COUNTING the times I've fell
One wise old lady once told me -
When you fell, stand up, but don't stand up empty handed.
If you fell on a pile of sand, fill your palms with the sand when you stand up.
If you fell on a bed of loose rocks, pick two large rocks, one in each of your hand.
That is why, everytime I fell down, I don't feel bad. On the contrary, I feel GOOD.
Why ?
Because I treat each and every of my fall as A CHANCE TO GAIN SOMETHING - either sand, rocks, or experience.
It's all perspective.
One may look on failure as _FAILURE_, but another one may look at the same failure as a chance to do MUCH BETTER THING.
Yes, sometimes I do sound like those "self-help-book", and yes, I DO KNOW that I sound silly. But I can't help it.
If I were to let myself down just because I fall, then I might as well as die. As long as I am still breathing, I owe it to myself to keep fighting.
Anyway, thanks again for the kind words !!
In other words ... (Score:3, Funny)
"Wow, based on your facts (99.999)
I am one on 100,000! I feel speacal!"
In a world of 6 Billion, you have 59,999 partners to choose from.
:)
Experience (Score:2)
You said:
"maybe so.. but some of us are entry level with no skills & experiences other than academic
Don't worry.
Experience don't come by if you just sit there and moan.
Go out there, knock on doors, hit the pavement - I know it sounds like cliche, but that's what you gotta do - and get someone to let you in.
Do whatever you already know, and ASK OTHERS for what you NOT YET KNOW !
You need to know one thing - that YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
If you keep this in mind, you will learn from others, and in the learning process, you GAIN EXPERIENCES.
Take care !
Where's the dinero ? (Score:2)
If what you said is true
"Should read:
... went into consultation, now in comercial email, and so on and so forth
Then where's the dinero, man ?
:)
Re:Great (Score:2, Interesting)
Just meandering.
before someone complaints (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:before someone complaints (Score:2)
And it's not just that either. Government jobs are usually free of the corporate whore mindset of big business. That is, you don't have to be the 'company man'. You can just go to work, do your job and come home. You don't have to attend stupid 'bonding' weekends in the mountains or similar nonsense.
Morover, government has a better sense of respect for their employees wellbeing. I've generally observed more consideration given to workplace health and safety, and just generally valuing people. Whether you're working for the gov, or for the company, either way you're working for "the man". Just, in gov, the man is often nicer to you.
Sure, it generally doesn't pay as well. I'm slightly disturbed to think that this is what us geeks have sunk to though.
Has the IT "boom" of previous years got us so used to thinking of ourselves as the new elite. Sure, we all deserve to be paid well. But I think what we're talking about here is the difference between being paid well, and very well, or obscenely well.
I think it's time to stop trying to prove something and look at things realistically. There is more to life than work, and how much you earn. But we're all smart people right (trolls excluded)? We should know that already!
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've got no desire to end up an old man with acute RSI, no friends or family, a caffiene addiction and a lot of money/toys.
Re:before someone complaints (Score:2)
second, it is hard to get fired, unless youre a complete dumbass,
Great for dumbasses, not so great if you've been promoted to be in charge of a department full of dumbasses.
Err (Score:2, Insightful)
What's next, McDonalds on 4th St needs 3 new fry cooks?
Re:Err (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Err (Score:2)
Corporate America should hang their heads in shame.
Stuff it (Score:2)
Re:Stuff it (Score:4, Funny)
You want a job? Start buying some stuff.
President Bush? I would have thought you'd have a higher User ID!
~jeff
Re:Stuff it (Score:2)
Re:Stuff it (Score:2)
To whom? All those unemployed people?
Businesses have no responsibility anymore. Just hire and fire whenever they feel like it. Pay a non-living wage. Work people 60 hours a week. Cut benefits. Increase overtime (on salary of course) and make people as miserable as possible while they are there... until they are fired.
This isn't just one opinion. There are thousands of people out there, many of which have been sitting unemployed for OVER A YEAR NOW. The economy is recovering. WHERE'S THE JOBS? NEWSFLASH: THERE AREN'T ANY.
Managers: Employed (for years)
HR: Employed (for years)
Admin Assistants: Employed (for years)
IT and Engineeers: FIRED (after a few months)
Should they need you they will hire you.
No they won't. There are people with 10 TIMES my qualifications who have answered THOUSANDS of ads for work and gotten ZERO. THAT IS A FACT. I've applied for jobs I was PERFECTLY qualified for and gotten ZIP. I know a guy with an MA in English who applied for a part-time job at a bookstore.
"Got any experience selling books?"
"Uhhh.. well, I did my Master's Thesis on Library Science and graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Graduate Degree in English."
(Translation: I've forgotten more about books than you, or anyone in this entire company put together will EVER know)
"Sorry. We need qualified people."
So, a guy with a MASTER'S DEGREE IN ENGLISH is unqualified to sell books. That's the reality of the job market now.
Even if they do hire anyone, they'll fire them in a week.
Yes, it's a recession. These things happen. (Score:2)
Look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics page [bls.gov] and see what the unemployment rate is. As of March 2002 , it was 5.7%. From 1974 through 1988, the US unemployment rate did not fall below 5.6%. 14 years. That's the job market I came into when I got out of college. The 'recession' of the early 90's wasn't one; it was merely a pause in the boom times.
Depending on who you listen to, it may even get worse before it gets better. So my only advice would be to hang in there and keep printing those resumes, and be prepared to ride this recession out; don't be discouraged because nobody wants your previously marketable skills, all that gets thrown out the window when times are like this.
Re:Yes, it's a recession. These things happen. (Score:2)
Surprise! I don't care about the economic sense! This is the longest I've been unemployed in 18 years! I'm not the only person having trouble getting ANY JOB either.
be prepared to ride this recession out
Well, it's been 14 months now. Granted I haven't been out of work the whole time, but 14 months? Are businesses REALLY that bad off? I doubt it.
Re:Yes, it's a recession. These things happen. (Score:2)
People have had a hard time finding a job for over a YEAR.
Read the definition. (Score:2)
Re:Read the definition. (Score:2)
Growth can go down, businesses are hiring. Mutually exclusive?
Re:Yes, it's a recession. These things happen. (Score:2)
A couple of sites that are useful in following this bear market and associated economy:
Fiend's SuperBear Page [fiendbear.com]
FallStreet.com [fallstreet.com]
P.S. The last time I was laid off, I went 5 months with very little money... and ended up in a state (yes, govt.) job for the next 10 years. And I learned more in that job than I have in the private sector since then. Keep an open mind, and good luck.
Of Course (Score:5, Interesting)
Plenty of people have jobs
Plenty of people are living hand-to-mouth, have no savings, own nothing and are two paychecks away from being broke.
Plenty of people are underemployed, have nothing to do most of the day, and are tormented by management on purpose to get them to quit.
Plenty of people try to work hard and do a good job and get fired anyway.
Plenty of people have to choose between child care and medical insurance.
Plenty of people have to spend their retirement account on food.
Plenty of people have no meaningful contribution to their jobs.
Plenty of people spend the majority of their work day in unproductive meetings.
Plenty of people have to allow the company to control every moment of their workday, and attempt to control every moment of their off-time.
Plenty of people lose those jobs when management decides to reorganize the paradigms.
Plenty of people can't afford a house, ever.
Plenty of people can't afford to raise a family.
Plenty of people have watched their unemployment run out and the phone never rings.
Plenty of people have to lie in order to get hired.
Plenty of people have given up on ever finding another job, anywhere.
Yes, of course. All those thousands of people. It's all them. It's NEVER the fault of the incompetent people doing the hiring. It's never the fault of the businesses. They can do no wrong. They are blameless in their pursuit of profits.
Always better to blame anyone who complains than to fix the problem.
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
Well, maby they should have thought a little harder when deciding that having an orgasim was worth ruining their future.
I sick of anybody who can't make it in any of the Western Democracies - If you can't make it here, then you *deserve* to starve. Jesus, all you have to do around here is put down the crack-pipe, grow some dignity and get a job.
Let me give you a hint - this is the easiest fucking place to have a decent life. So much so, that we have to kick people out.
Maby we should kick the whiners out of here, and invice some of the decent people who *want* to live here and who were just unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong country.
I'm really starting to hate the stupid people who constantly have their hand out with their Gimme!Gimme! attitude. People who sit around and watch Jerry Springer, and then have the gall to blame me for their sucky life.
Oh well. Back to work. Somthing *some* people don't understand.
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
LOL! Like it's up to the employee.
their Gimme!Gimme! attitude.
What, like "Gimme" a job? It only gets better.
Somthing *some* people don't understand.
Yeah. No one else works. Oooookay.
Big smile! BIIIIIG SMILE!!!!
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
LOL! Like it's up to the employee.
Yep it is. Either, keep beging the 'man' for work OR start your own company.
It's easy. I know it's easy, 'cause I did it. And I'm not special. In fact, I'm lazy.
America is the land of *opportunity* not the land of easy living.
Yeah. No one else works. Oooookay.
Where did I say that "no one else works"?
I hope that was a laps in your reasoning, and will give you the benefit of doubt.
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
I was in rant mode, please forgive me.
My gripe, is not with people who are activly trying to do better - it's with prople who think that their lucky birth in this country entitles them to automatic sucess.
My observation that it's easy to do well here is simply an observation that many people try to immigrate here - I trust their judgement. They have been an inspiriation to me - and I'm glad they are here.
I feel that we need to make it easier to do well in this counrty. The fact that secondary education is not free is disgusting. The fact that most of our public transportation systems suck is pathetic. I simply want to channel our generosity to people who are willing to try.
Here's an example. Two door down from my little house, an old man died and his kids put the home up for sale. It's on two lots, so someone bought it quickly. It turns out that the new owner is a slumlord - he buys property and rents them to the government for cheep. The government stuck in a family that, for three months, ran a medium scale crack operation out of there. They all have been put in jail.
So here's the rub - the money the govenment spends to lock these idiots up and take care of their bastard children could have been spent earlier on in their lives to give them a decent education. Perhaps they whould have not made the same choices.
It's simply a matter of priorities. I'd just rather help my fellow humans, and not the people who behave worse than animals. There is only so much generosity in the world - why should we waste it on the people who won't know the differace.
My only advice, is to try to not see people who are rich in money as the enemy. Most got there by treating people with respect and care, and most have somthing to learn from. Ignore the trust-fund kids, and the glisteny wall-street types. The true rich man, is the one who owns his own corner grocery and has time for his family.
Good luck with your adventures.
Re:Of Course (Score:3, Interesting)
lol Ironic to use the word "troll."
how do we "fix the problem"?
Yeah. Let's ask for a simple answer that'll fit in a text box so we'll have something to ridicule.
I don't know. I'm not that smart. What I do know is that what is happening is very corrosive, and business better get a handle on it, or the bill is eventually going to come due: meaning there won't be anyone left to buy their overpriced low-quality products.
Houses at $600K ($13K/month to qualify)
600 sq. ft. apartments at $1000/month (over 50% of the average wage)
$7 for a sandwich
Adds up. And there are two kinds of jobs where them houses, apartments and sandwiches are (and it isn't SV): $7/hr. at Wal Mart and that VB job that's been on Dice for three years. And THAT'S IT. I don't know how these other people are paying the bills, but my guess is that none of them have a current resume.
(For those of you watching at home, yes, that's ONE HOUR and 20 MINUTES OF WORK for a sandwich, after taxes.)
There, how's that for a troll? Maybe I'll get another 3: Insightful, eh?
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
Roast beef on wheat is a luxury. Great. I'm doing better than I thought.
$1000 for 600 sq ft apartment means your living in an area which is way too expensive.
That's the point.
$600k buys a luxuroius mansion not a house.
$600K buys a three bedroom house four blocks from here. Too expensive? Yep. Can anyone do anything about it? Nope. And this ain't even CLOSE to an expensive area.
my rent was less than $200/month
With how many roommates? Five? A 10x10 room for $200 a month I'll believe. An apartment? Not on this planet.
just over $30/month for food.
Really? What eight items at the grocery store can one buy to feed themselves for a month? A gallon of milk (which will not stretch to a month) is about $4.
Or is this just a tiny exaggeration designed to avoid the fact that the cost of living is out of reach of the average salary?
Now, I could easily survive comfortably on $1000/month.
Yeah. I could probably survive on $800 a month, but comes a time when a man would rather MAKE A LIVING than just "survive."
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
What?!?! Unless you grow your own food, being a vegan is not cheap. I'm not vegan, but I worked with a group of people that were giving it a shot. This was in LA, of course, so maybe its different in other states. I am assuming the poster is in the bay area, which is worse than LA. They couldn't shop at normal grocery stores, and either mail ordered some of their food or had to go to some sort of Epicurean (translation: more $) market that carried organic foods and all that. The stuff that you buy in protest of the big business is expensive to produce because, well, it doesn't destroy the environment.
The funny thing is that they all pitched in and ordered these "snack" items from some mailorder place. (You really have to be dedicated to be vegan since most stuff lacks texture and flavor of normal food. A vegan, of course, will claim otherwise.) I can only descibe what these things were are rock-hard pucks of oatmeal held together with dehydrated fruit juice and a dehydrated apricot on top. The term "yummy" was only relative to the taste of shit scraped off the front lawn. It was like eating a hockey puck made of sand. It just made me want to run out and become a vegan....not.
Re:Of Course (Score:2)
The same parents who, because they had careers, now have a home? Ironic example.
find anymore lifetime jobs like your friends from the Depression era
The Depression was over 70 years ago. That's more than one generation.
The role of business was never to provide lifetime or even extended periods of employment.
Fine. When the money runs out (read: when nobody has any disposable income) then businesses go out of business. Suppose they'll complain? Will they accept "that's the way it is" as an answer? Doubt it.
Re:Alarmist attempt has failed (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't buy it for a second.
the tech sector unemployment rate is lower still
That goes against every single item of information I have heard, seen or read in 18 months. The tech sector is at ZERO opportunity right now. There are people with THOUSANDS of resumes out that have gotten nothing.
Stop expecting jobs to be handed to you simply because you are qualified.
Was that supposed to make sense? I must have missed it. What else am I supposed to be except qualified? Or did that question just define everything that's wrong with business today?
What part of "Should they need you they will hire you" did you not understand?
"They will hire you." Because it's not true. They WON'T.
that you are only taking this job to pay the bills and absolutely WILL jump ship when times get better.
Oh, so the employee has to be true blue but the employer can throw 5000 people out in the street whenever they feel like it. Sounds great.
Business are only in it to make money, right? Well, GUESS WHAT?? EMPLOYEES are in it to PAY THE BILLS.
just take a look over in Europe
No. That's not what I said. Nice red herring. I said RESPONSIBILITY. Companies should not pull the rug out from under a man providing for a family who is doing a good job. It's wrong, and they know it, but they do it anyway (by the hundreds of thousands), and then hide behind "we're just in it to make money" when someone calls them on it.
Either change your tactice, or change your profession/field/industry, whatever.
Yeah. Throw eight years into the trash and start over in an entry-level job and try to retire on time. Sure. Uh huh.
when you get lucky once again this time
People shouldn't have to "get lucky" in order to feed themselves.
I am betting that at one time you had a nice phat paying techie job yet handled the money in perhaps not the most responsible mannner.
...and you'd lose. Management handled the jobs in not the most responsible manner, and I wasn't the only one affected. I watched a man kneel down and wipe tears away from his four-year-old daughters face in the parking lot as she asked "are you sad, Daddy?" I can tell you that I thought some very ugly things about the person who fired him (and me, and two dozen other people) that day. 10 days later, they were advertising to fill our positions again, through an agency.
I haven't purchased a single luxury item in 15 years. I was making a few bucks here and there, and could barely afford about 3/4 of the basics.
I think it's time to stop stereotyping and start realizing there are some major problems here. There should never be this many highly educated and qualified people unemployed. Period.
SHOULD? Where'd that word come from? (Score:2)
What the Sam Hill guarantees a job just because of an education? I know people with less education than me who make more money because they are realists. I could well be in your boat, but chance says I'm not right now. But I know the risks. I take the chance of losing this job from the company going out of business (as happened in 1976, 1986, 1987 (twice), 1995, 1996, and 1997), because while I've got it, it's good. I like being able to work at home sometimes, I like decent (but not outrageous) pay for reasonable (nor outrageous) hours, I like my good boss and coworkers.
Never for a minute do I think they SHOULD NOT lay me off if times get bad. If that happens, and I get unemployed, and don't have any luck getting reemployed, then *I* have a decision to make -- take what I can, change careers, wait, and so on.
It's happened before, it'll happen again.
NO ONE OWES ME A JOB just because I want it or need it.
A job is a trade between an employer and employee. As long as both benefit from it, it remains. When either party no longer benefits, the trade should be broken.
That's the way life works. Get used to it.
Re:SHOULD? Where'd that word come from? (Score:2)
Well, let's see. What is it, 35% graduate from college? 94% employment rate? Doesn't take a math major to see that those 35% shouldn't intersect with the 6% as reliably as they do now.
Every unemployed person I know has a college degree. Several have postgraduate degrees. Of the few I know who are employed (underemployed), only one has a degree.
NO ONE OWES ME A JOB just because I want it or need it.
But those bills.. come due every month don't they? I owe those bills, whether I want to or not. Can't escape the mortgage. Payments won't wait.
Now, if I could just say "I DON'T OWE THE HOUSE PAYMENT BECAUSE THE BANK WANTS IT OR NEEDS IT" then we'd have a fair playing field, right?
But it isn't that way. I, and thousands more, did what we were supposed to do, and I think we've been suckered into the greatest bait and switch known to man. I've wasted eight years. Others have wasted more. It's going to continue to get worse until people start paying attention to what's going on in the next cubicle. Being unemployed for months at a time again and again is NOT RIGHT.
You don't compute (Score:2)
What a bunch of whining greedy pampered babies. You have yet to learn that YOU are responsible for YOUR life, and it's about time you planned on a few down spots to go along with the good spots.
If the only people you know unemployed have degrees, that says that you either don't know anyone without a degree (pretty snooty, seems to me) or you have yet to understand that clue: you don't need a degree to get a job.
How about all the people with English lit or PoliSci degrees? Are they entitiled to a job in that specialty just because they wasted four years and the car salesman didn't? I have more respect for them cause they actually know how to WORK. How about all the people who have PhDs in physics or math and have to stoop to progrmming for a living? Do we owe them jobs in physics or math?
Emploeyers have bills coming due every month too. Where are they supposed to get the money to pay those bills if they haven't got the income? They do what you had better learn: tighten belts, balance the budget, only borrow as a last resort. I went 6 months unemployed once because I was too proud to take a boring job. Learned that lesson. About time you and all the other pampered whiners do too.
Re:SHOULD? Where'd that word come from? (Score:2)
No, but you were tricked into believing the job was stable enough to allow you to make the payments! Even the BANK participates in that little illusion.
And so when the employer steps out (as they are wont to do, ESPECIALLY if an employee looks like they are approaching anything resembling a normal life), it's the employee left holding the six-figure payment book. SOUND FAIR TO YOU????????
No, wait. I already know the answer: "Just deal with it. Get over it. Nobody promised you anything. Quit whining. Companies are only in it to make money. Blah blah blah blah."
Now see, if the BANK or the EMPLOYER were required to sign their name for six figures, THEY would make sure they had an ESCAPE CLAUSE in the event they couldn't pay.
NOT SO FOR THE EMPLOYEE THOUGH. It's very important that we destroy their credit on the way to the unemployment office. That way, even if they do manage to get another job, we can still deprive them (and their family) of another home.
Re:Alarmist attempt has failed (Score:2)
I don't buy it for a second.
I also don't buy it. Politicans have been monkeying around with the rules for unemployeement so make themselves look better.
Re:you are arrogant. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. But my degree AND experience entitles me to a fair evaluation for a job.
Businesses have a responsibility to hold up their end of the social contract.
Right now there are millions of kids in school who are being told "get good grades, work hard, get an education and when you graduate you'll get a good job." I know that because it's what *I* was told.
It is a lie.
Good jobs mean people are productive and happy.
Real good jobs become CAREERS.
They can put down roots in a community, send their kids to school, pay taxes and build a home. They have something they can DEPEND ON.
Many people together doing this creates neighborhoods where kids develop friendships with other kids, community programs start, and people work together to build a nice life for themselves and their neighbors.
Sounds great, right? I haven't seen a community like this since the early 1980s, over 20 years ago. The only communities like this today are extremely affluent ones where the residents are almost never affected by mass random layoffs.
Take that same community about two years in and lay off 20% of the people. Homes are sold. Friendships lost. The neighborhood is diminished. People move away, or lose their homes completely. Those who remain fear for their jobs.
New people move in. Then the second wave hits. 30% this time. Half the neighborhood is gone. Everyone is confused. Nobody knows anyone. People work harder, and longer hours, thinking they might be next. The kids don't get to spend much time with their parents any more. People become gloomy and depressed. Community events are cancelled for non-participation. People spend a lot of time at home. People complain of fatigue.
More new people move in. Half the first group has already moved away because they couldn't find work. 10% more are laid off. Wages are cut elsewhere. People start to complain. Businesses fail because people either have no money or won't spend it. More people leave. Pretty soon you have an entire group of houses (no longer a neighborhood) where nobody knows anyone else. Kids aren't allowed outside any more. The neighborhood has died.
Everywhere I've lived since 1987 has been this way. That's what's wrong, and it is 100% the fault of businesses that don't keep up their end of the bargain. People have no incentive to do right if they cannot depend on the rewards.
Pretty soon, people will realize that nothing they do matters, and stop trying. Then we are really going to have problems. Banks, for example, will soon realize that having a job is no guarantee that someone can pay a mortgage. (This is already a fact, but banks, like all corporate businesses, are sometimes a little slow)
All a person has is their education and experience, and businesses have made both worthless. It took the hundreds of businesses I applied to only a few months to make my eight years experience utterly worthless.
"Put your education last and lie about your experience" is the accepted way to get hired now. Matter of fact, it is not much of a stretch to say it is the only way to get hired in a lot of cases.
Well, hired until management decides to lay off another 4000.
Re:Alarmist attempt has failed (Score:2)
Every IT/technical/engineering/science person I know is out of work, except for one, and they are miserable and under constant threat of imminent layoff. I have one other friend who has been working steadily for a few years, but making about 1/3 of what they need for basics.
I know one person who has sent out 2000 resumes, and gotten one interview since 12/00 which abruptly concluded (unsuccessfully, of course) after the answer to the question "how old are you?"
I know another person with an MA who was told they were unqualified to work part-time at a bookstore.
Of the two dozen people that were laid off with me at the last large company I worked at, only one is employed, and not in IT. The guy with the 4 year-old daughter is now raising his six year old daughter in another country. The layoff cost him about $40,000 including his kids' college fund.
30,000 tech jobs on Dice.
That enough evidence? See a problem here? As far as I'm concerned, with my unscientific sample, unemployment is about 80%. For me, it's 100%.
Re:Alarmist attempt has failed (Score:2)
Well, of course it isn't. So we can just sweep it all aside and ignore it until the next round of layoffs.
for each of your anecdotes about people you know out of work, i can point to someone who has found work, albeit not on the tech level.
Paying a living wage? House? Car? Food? Insurance? Clothes? Kids food? School books? Medical? Utilities? Car repairs? Taxes? Savings? Will the job last? A year? Two? Five?
so while it may be bad for you, don't make it sound like we are in some great crisis.
When people with college degrees and years of professional experience as engineers CANNOT FIND A PAYING JOB ANYWHERE that just about defines the word 'crisis.'
They are overqualified for entry-level work, and no-one will hire them for work they are qualified for. They cannot get hired. Anywhere. Understand?
Re:Alarmist attempt has failed (Score:2)
[/sarcasm]
It shouldn't be this difficult for ANYONE just to make a living.
Re:I arm myself with evidence. What do you have? (Score:4, Insightful)
30,000 jobs on Dice. Does that about wrap up the "they don't need you" argument?
Simply being a good worker and doing whats expected of you as a family man, husband or father is not enough.
Then society has failed. Period. That's all a man can do.
Am I supposed to buy your company's products because you need a paycheck?
No, you should withhold your money even if you want the product, so you can watch the business fail.
Sounds like you need a big heaping serving of humble pie.
Yep. Can't take any satisfaction in them accomplishments. Workers are gettin' too uppity. Let's fire some more of 'em.
Alright, maybe you didn't have it good during the good times. I'll give you that. But how have you managed your life since you left school?
I was employed in school, before school, and on a constant basis since school, until last year.
When did you decide to have kids? How much money did you have in the bank when you made that choice?
I don't have kids. I can't afford to raise them because I can't find a stable job.
Did you really expect your job to be there until you retire?
Yes. Every company I've ever worked for is still in business. One company hired my replacement two weeks after I and two dozen others were laid off.
I was born in 1980 and even I long ago figured out that no one remains in the same job for 25 years anymore.
Because they can't, even if they wanted to.
And any more? You never SAW a career. I know people one generation back who worked for TWICE YOUR AGE at the EXACT SAME DESK. I haven't been there since I was still learning to tie my shoes, but I can still find people at that company who know the people I'm talking about. That's called a CAREER. They used to be commonplace, and only required a simple Bachelor's Degree. Full pension. Full benefits. And not ONE LAYOFF since the EISENHOWER ADMINISTRATION.
Do you think companies have unlimited amounts of money?
Companies rarely lay off because of money. Oh, they'll do it to keep profits up, as if a recession is only allowed to screw over the lives of the working man. That, or to get a stock bump. Rarely is it about money. It's about control and incompetence.
Disney had two eight figure movie releases two summers back. Laid off 4000 people in the week between them. That ok? Not to me.
Of course the shareholders and top executives continue to make a ton of money. But thats largely irrelevant.
Really.
There's no point to being a shareholder or executive unless there's a large financial benefit in return.
Hmmm.. no point to being a good employee if you can't feed yourself either.
Study hard in school and graduate, get good job that will be around for my entire career while raising family in stable neighborhood, retire after 25-30 years with wonderful pension,
...
Am I close to what your original dream was?
I saw it growing up. Every family I knew was exactly like that. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. My parents, who both had careers and degrees told me that from the moment I could understand the language. Tragic how wrong they were.
Now you want some honest advice? Get out of the technology sector. I don't think you have the stamina or will for it. You don't even sound emotionally stable.
Oh, now we're going to be patronizing. lol Yes, of course. I'd like some honest advice from someone who was still learning how to multiply when I graduated from college.
you've got to at the very least decided if they are worth learning and if so, you've got to set aside the time. All the while you've got to maintain your level of performance at your job and in your family life. Not everyone can do it.
Only young people who make no demands for family or adequate pay can do it. Want to spend time with your kids instead of Visual PerlBeans.GPF? Sorry, you're unqualified.
I did it for eight years. Worked 16 hour days. Learned eight languages. Did 22-hour uninterrupted programming stints, the whole nine yards. Know what I've got to show for it? A five page resume (with my degree last) a used car, a two-year old computer and some broken down furniture. Like I said, no luxuries.
But the point is I'm *not* in IT any more, and I'm not all that sure IT misses people like me. Experience and education don't count, so I have nothing to offer.
Re:You had me completely until... (Score:2)
That's all I'm trying to say. If the job market were like this, it would solve 80% of the problems.
Re:I arm myself with evidence. What do you have? (Score:2)
Read the original question? They didn't have a chip on *their* shoulder, did they? Not at all...
Absolutely amazing, given your rotten attitude.
Yes. I should have a BIG SMILE!! BIIIIIG SMILE!! while one employer after another deliberately screws over my career. "Yes sir, Mr. Manager! Lay off four dozen? Why, I think that's a fine idea! Save you a lot of money! Hurry along now, you're late for your meeting!"
Funny how an increasing number of households are single parent, non-traditional, or otherwise don't fit your stereotype. You apparently live in fantasyland, because most of the people I know do not fit your ideals.
Yeah. Funny how so many of those two-parent families both have to work in case one gets fired out of the blue one day. Funny how so many of those single-parent families are two paychecks away from a shelter. Funny how if that single-parent family is a recently divorced father how a bill for an extra couple-thousand is tucked into the stack every month too. Funny.
Finally, some resume advice
Ah yes, the ever-present resume advice. Everyone's an expert on resumes. Did I say I SENT OUT five page resumes? No.
Re:I arm myself with evidence. What do you have? (Score:2)
Re:I arm myself with evidence. What do you have? (Score:2)
Of course not. The whole job market revolves around "attitude." That's why experience and education don't matter in the hiring process. As long as the candidate supplicates themselves sufficiently, they can have any job they want. Has absolutely nothing to do with ability.
Job ads routinely call for "self-starters" and "highly intelligent problem solvers." Then hiring managers expect these go-getters to show up quiet and reserved, never say a word and agree with everyone (even when they are wrong). Can't have it both ways. If you're TRULY a "manager," you should be able to put ANYONE to work, and get the most productivity out of them.
But, managers would rather take the easy path and hire a consensus. Less thought and effort required.
A corporation's first and foremost responsibility is to its shareholders, not its employees.
This is bunk. A corporation's responsibilities are whatever the board decides they are. Shareholders know this ahead of time. If they aren't sufficiently impressed with the company's ruthless pursuit of profit, they can invest elsewhere.
Corporations have a right to pay you for exactly as long as it's in their best interests to do so, and no longer. You have the right to continue to work for them as long as it's in your best interests to do so, and no longer.
Yeah, nice and adversarial, just the way the company likes it. That way, they won't feel bad when they throw entire departments out in the street on a regular basis.
Corporations have a right to pay you for exactly as long as it's in their best interests to do so, and no longer.
Just for fun, reconcile this statement with "team player."
Re:Stuff it (Score:2)
Re:Err (Score:2)
I had exactly the same experience. So I started applying for jobs in other countries. I'm currently working for the US Gubernment in another country... kind of sad on the pay scale but thankfully the dollar is strong enough to make up for that when I have to go buy stuff. (come on dollar! pull up! pull up!)
So, maybe you can luck out and go overseas for a few years.
Re:No offense but... (Score:2)
I know quite a few, including myself; although your other points are worth considering:
1) Your resume sucks.
That's quite possible. I find myself correcting spelling errors on my resume all the time; admittedly, I wrote it up on a word processor that didn't have spell check. I should have been more careful. It also helps to have a friend or two go through your references to see if someone is giving you a bad reference; in that case, it would be wise to provide a different reference!
It may also be wise to consider dumbing down one's resume. Do you really need to point out that Masters' degree? Or that you have twenty years' experience? Chances are those things will do more harm than good, unless the job specifically asks for them. Lose them.
2) You have unrealistic expectations of salary or position availability (i.e. an unwillingness to move)
I admit that this is a factor, as there are some places where I'm simply not willing to live (e.g., Houston, Detroit, Fargo). Also, there are many job seekers that have families, farms, etc. Finally, where one lives is a factor, as many companies are less willing to hire candidates that need to relocate. (This isn't simply for economic reasons either -- many employers in the Chicago area are only willing to consider "local candidates" for many positions. The fact that I have family in Chicago, and can move to Chicago without relocation assistance from my employer, doesn't seem to be a factor.)
3) You have an odd personal defect, horrible to look at, or you come across as a smartass in an interview.
As a footnote: one can lose the opportunity for what seem like minor reasons. I suspect that I was turned down for one position because I balked at the idea of starting work the next Monday. The result: they decided to interview a new round of candidates. I haven't gotten a final no, but a provisional no doesn't often turn into a final yes. Lesson learned: when you get an opportunity, snatch it, and forget about the other opportunities. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Re:No offense but... (Score:2)
Beggars can't be choosers. I just moved to Houston from LA. I have to tell you, its not bad. I am paying $35k less for a house, and getting more upgrades. I will live If you're into the culture and your friends where you live, well then you haven't really gotten serious about your career yet. After high school, one chooses to keep partying, work, or go to college. This is the same choice to make now. If you don't have family to support, you can hang out and wait for something.
Re:Err (Score:3, Interesting)
IT Recruiter: Hello, I got your resume here, but I can't seem to open it.
Me: I sent it as a PDF.
IT Recruiter: Uhhh... can you send it as a Word file?
Me: sure *fires up VMWare*
IT Recruiter: your cover letter says that you have experience in web ecommerce application. But I don't see ASP on your resume.
Me: The last two contracts I was on used a hosting company that provided PHP and MySQL, therefore, I implemented their web based systems in PHP.
IT Recruiter: Uh...
Me: Nevermind...
There has got to be a better way to land full time work in this country? Has anybody left the US to work elsewhere? Is it worth it?
Re:Err (Score:2)
99% of companies and recruiters are unqualified to evaluate, hire, manage, or otherwise employ software engineers.
Of course, they have no intention of hiring anyone anyway, and even if they do, they'll come up with some reason to lay them off in a few months. What's the point again?
Outside the U.S.? Lookin better every day.
hiring qualified candidates (Score:2)
Where i work, all potential resumes go to managers of my department. HR may review candidates for basic things such as interpersonal skills and check background information but they are largely inconsequential in the final decision-making process. In the end it's the manager you have to impress.
Managers in my department, guys who make the hiring decisions and throw projects, schedules and timelines at us, shield us away from inter-departmental bullshit and stupid-ass corporate politics, are *ALL* guys who pretty much know every aspect of our jobs. In most cases they could do parts of our jobs. They've got a pretty close idea of what it takes to do anything, build any application, and if they don't have the answers themselves, they know exactly who to go to in their team to get the info they need, while asking precise, well-defined questions which make sense to us geeks.
They are also the ones who came up with a cool concept for the process of hiring programmers: each candidate is interviewed in a room with all his/her potential future peers. Questions are thrown-out, geek-off sessions are spawned, but in the end, before any hiring decision is made, the whole team knows what the guy/girl is made of.
i am lucky to enough to not have a family to care for right now. But it is true, being in the IT field is demanding. It has broken/hurt some of my past relationships. I get made fun of. But this is what i do. This is what i like, this is what i breathe, this is what i love to do. Don't get me wrong i do have many other hobbies, but i like what i do. i don't do it to make money. i do it for the love of the game and at times, i get money for it.
Heavy cat: it is kids like me (born 76) your ass has to compete with in the IT field. Dedicated motherfuckers who love what they do. Is it fair to you? No. and i'm sorry for that. But in the end, my manager will look at two possible candidates: you, the guy with a degree and a big mouth, who got into this field because it meant money, me the guy who just drank the internet cool-aid 7 years ago and got addicted to it and who is just happy making the 'net a better place. I just go to work every day and i'm happy making shit happen, code shit, build shit, all-the-while aching for my boss to point out the next mountain he thinks i won't be able to move, anticipating the exhultation of once again proving his ass wrong.
those are harder times. but that's the attitude you have to project in both your resume and your interviews. i dunno how much longer i'll have my job but hey, ill take an entry-level position related to what i do tomorrow if i have to. ill go to employers and tell'em ill fuckin' pay'em to let me code for them. that losing my previous job was the worst thing that ever happened to me because i don't get to make a difference in the world anymore. they took my crack away. mmuust code. heh.
of course this plan may interfere with those mortgate payments i have to make. well that's why i'm *trying* to save the shit out of yearly bonus'es (whenever they come) and tax refunds. im thinking severance pay and my savings might keep me going for a wee while, 'til i find a way to get out of less-rewarding job.
the IT game can be a real hustle man. it is the sad, bitter truth. of all higher-paying fields you could ever get in, it is the one where a degree means the least. You leverage a degree when you have nothing else to show for. Otherwise it's how good of a "dedicated motherfucker" you come accross as that will land you the job, along with impressing potential peers with mad coding skillz. until you realize those simple truths, you will have to wait for the next IT bubble to grow to get a good job.
The whole concept of IT defeats the very notion of "stable career". New technologies come out every 6 months, depracating many others, you have to constantly know, learn new things, constantly re-adapt, re-evaluate yourself. It is that ability that will keep you employed. You must always watch your back. the *second* you lose your edge, man, you're gone. SAYO-FUCKING-NARA.
Again, it is the sad, bitter truth. But i don't see this as a failure or our society. I see I.T. as a different world with its own rules. A dangerous one. You must walk into it very carefuly, well-prepared and never, *EVER* get comfortable, complacent or fall asleep.
Look into being a banker, a mortgage broker, a restauration specialist. Look for professions and fields where things don't change too much. you can make decent money there too. you can have a career. stability.
or get ready for some serious hustling in the IT field.
i empathize with your pain man. i too have many unemployed friends.
Re:hiring qualified candidates (Score:2)
Yep. Can't have anyone who speaks their mind, and be sure to belittle their education along with it.
who got into this field because it meant money,
Where did it say that? I got into this field because I was ASKED to do so, and I, unlike others, had the knowledge and background for it.
If managers are jumping to wrong conclusions that easily, then that is part (or all) of the problem. Managers don't take the time to know anything about their applicants, even though it is arguably their HIGHEST JOB PRIORITY. Managers that took the time to understand the background, knowledge and accomplishments (and dedication to programming) of an applicant like myself would have a very, VERY difficult time justifying not offering them a job.
But, they never get to that point. They scan the resume, find a word they don't like and throw it in the trash.
You leverage a degree when you have nothing else to show for.
I know eight programming languages. I started in IT in 1994. I've done the all-night coding sessions. I've worked at 3-person companies and Fortune 500 companies. 2-tier, 3-tier, n-tier, databases, GUIs, object-oriented design, web, CGI, sysadmin work, technical writing, and so on.
Of course, nobody is impressed with any of this, so what's the point? It's never enough anyway. The company WILL find a reason to disqualify you, and if they slip up and hire you, they can just lay you off in a couple of months (or weeks).
So, I suppose that's the way it is. Companies will continue to deliberately destroy people's careers and inflict pain on their families, and everyone will jump to the company's defense if anyone complains. "Well, that's just the way it is. They're only in it to make money."
I just hope too many people and families don't suffer. If nobody seeks to improve this, it will only get worse.
Re:hiring qualified candidates (Score:2)
I suppose in any comparison, the employer always gets the benefit of the doubt. Not surprising.
outside the U.S. (Score:2)
Europe? I would know first-hand. I spent the first 19 years of my life in france. Many european countries there are still struggling to recover from extreme implementaions of socialism which led all companies and corporations to just shy away from hiring anyone. Now i am aware that published unemployment statistics can be largely fucked with by governments but usually it is to make themselves look better. duh right? I know france is well into the double-digit, with a published rate of around 13/14% last i checked.
from growing-up in france, ive learned a few things.
it used to be a country where a wealthy class would exploit the shit out of a working class. Go read "Germinal" if you think you're having it bad. ugh. sad shit. Then came socialism to fix all that. The concepts of humanity was finally introduced in the work-place. woohoo. that taught those evil money-grubbing companies of the early industrialism era. Jump a good 50-60 years ahead. post world-war 1 and 2, all the way up to mid/late 70s. france is going back to that tradition of socialism. but this where "extreme implementation" comes in. worker unions become such powerful lobbying forces of the government that new laws keep getting passed restricting most freedoms companies may have as they struggle thru recessions to stay afloat, and cannot afford to lay ANYONE off without INSANE costs. What do those companies do? they say fuck this shit, i'll out-source all my labor to china, india and any other country where people are willing to work for peanuts. and you thought the U.S. was doing bad as a country because we'd hire I.T. workers on H1B visas from india? shieet man.
As another poster so rightfuly pointed out, there are reasons why our economy is overall sounder than that of other countries.
it's the land of opportunity. opportunity doesn't mean easy. it means risk. pain. hardship. it means working your ass off to get what you want. it means falling on your face many times. but it means being able to get back up if you have the spine for it.
but in the end, in this country, you have FAR MANY MORE chances of "making it" than anywhere else in the world.
Re:Err (Score:2)
No. I'm not asking for anything, because there are no interviews.
And I've learned a little more than "JSP programming in 3 seconds."
Re:Err (Score:2)
Try sending your resume as an HTML file. Word users can open 'em; browsers can read 'em; and, worst case scenario, the recruiter can cut-and-paste.
Not that it's helped me get a job, but it's worth considering.
Re:Err (Score:2)
Re:Err (Score:3, Insightful)
I had the same thing (requiring word). You know why they want that? So they can FSCK it UP WITH THEIR OWN COMPANY LETTERHEAD! No thanks! I'm not representing YOU mr. headhunter, I am representing MYSELF. Likewise, I would hate to be a consultant through any company that is too stupid to figure out how to open a .pdf (I made mine, as I assume you made yours, using ps2pdf from ghostscript?)
I got very lucky and landed a great job that I never even expected (I had applied several months prior and heard nothing back). This was after 6 months of unemployment (UC benefits running out, Uh Oh!).
The other option is to go into business for yourself. Pennsylvania seems to have finally gotten some USEFUL (imagine that!) information about running your own small business in the state. I was very close to doing that before landing my current job.
Funny... (Score:2)
...I said the same thing yesterday about JPEGs. ;-)
Re:Err (Score:2, Informative)
I posted the news because I wanted to make sure /.ers to raise awareness of the job fair among those who are most likely qualified and possibly looking for new work since the dot.com bust and 9/11. Statistics show a rise in IT workers interest in government jobs -- this may not describe you, but it certainly describes a number of the /. readership.
Right... (Score:2)
The Blackout may result in slightly lower ad revenue, but the stories are a dime a dozen. Check my link...I find enough decent material to make 9-12 posts/day by myself.
jobs.faa.gov (Score:2, Insightful)
H1-B (Score:3, Funny)
>
The Coast Guard solicits engineers and IT pros too (Score:2, Insightful)
How often do IT people get to go on a general tour of duty, and help save lives or bust drug smugglers?
Site doesn't work (Score:3, Informative)
Now, having to copy a number from the page into their own form is dumb enough. But worse, the number is rejected with "This vacancy is not currently open." Bozos.
Re:Site now Slashdotted (Score:2)
Too Many Users
There are too many connected users. Please try again later.
Re:Site doesn't work (Score:2)
I don't want to apply; I just wanted to see what the online test was like.
Good chance (Score:3, Funny)
230,000 applicants
Hooray!
This reminds me of the joke... (Score:2, Funny)
The interviewer says "hmm, so do you have any special needs or disabilities before we hire you?"
The guy says "Well, it's kinda embarassing, but I lost my testicles in a grenade explosion when I was in the military."
"Hmmmm..." says the interviewer, pausing a minute and flipping through papers. "Looks great. You start Monday, your hours are 11am to 5pm. Congratulations!"
"But I thought government workers start at 9am?" asks the guy, with a puzzled look on his face.
The interviewer replies "Well, normally I'd put you on normal work hours, but since you lost your testicles, you won't be sitting there scratching 'em for 2 or 3 hours a day bored and trying to figure out what to do."
First Virtual IT Job Fair (Score:2)
Who cares about low pay? Benefits and stable job are all I need... And what're the odds the government will try to claim my hobby programming as their own IP?
It's like any other job search these days (Score:4, Insightful)
Most (ca 95%) of the government tech jobs open are in defense-related areas and with the DoD being the biggest poster of jobs. If you are out in the boondocks (more than 100 miles from DC) with no big military base around, not much chance of a good local job with the feds for you.
Note that this job fair is for applicants around DC or for applicants who figure that they can relocate anywhere and often.
The Bush Administration is also trying to cut government employment by using a process called "competitive sourcing", because it is a good way of replacing unionized federal employees with non-union private sector wage earners. (Union employees seem to vote Democratic all the time, you know.) Competitive sourcing goes back over 40 years, but it is now being cranked up more aggressively. Competitive sourcing means that government employees have to write up their own jobs as if they were up for bids, because they are, and then bid on them in competition with private contractors. About half the time the private contractors win and the government employees lose their jobs or get offered a new job at a different "location nationwide". Currently, the entire Interior Department is scheduled to go through competive sourcing procedures over the next two years, so not all federal government jobs come with the job security that many people associate with joining a bureaucracy.
In addition, the old "double dip" benefits to those who spent part of their career in the government and part in private industry (being covered by and getting separate pensions from both Civil Service retirement and Social Security) have been eliminated by coordinating the benefits from the two plans. You might know some retirees who are very happily receiving the double dip, but it doesn't happen anymore.
ummm.... do they hire lower life forms? (Score:2)
no wonder then that the feds are such a
bumbling batch of baby-burners!
Government training (Score:2)
you have decent advancement options and good benefits. you won't get rich working for the government, but they will TRAIN you a lot which is good if you ever want to work elsewhere. the training oppertunites alone are probably worth it.
Working for the gov't (Score:2, Interesting)
Anyways. Let's see here, what's my experience with the computer people at my work...I need computer access to do my job, so I walk down to the building the computer people are in, and say I need access. They tell me I absolutely have to make an appointment and that I have to call a certain person's extension to do so. So I call that extension, leave a message with my name and phone number. I wait two days, nada. I call again. I end up calling 10 times in two weeks. NOTHING. My supervisor is getting pretty annoyed by now at having to let me use the computer while it's her logged in, and calls over to that extension and FINALLY gets a real person. She says my full name and how I need computer access NOW. The computer person says that she gave me computer access a week and a half ago. I say that if she did, she certainly didn't tell ME about it. Turns out the clueless person had given another person who had the same first name computer access, and didn't bother to see if the person calling (after she had supposedly given access to that person) had the same last name as the person who she'd given access to. Ugh.
-Jenn
ONE Unix job (Score:2)
I even tried the same search in several salary categories, and the same one came up under three of them, but it was the same ONE job. Sure looks like the gubmint is a Microsoft shop.
Are you highly educated and out of a job? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Are you highly educated and out of a job? (Score:3, Insightful)
For four years, I was hearing where even the bottom of the class graduates were getting jobs at Motorola and Lockheed, and their hiring bonus was the company paying off their student loans in full. But guess what? It took me five years. I graduated a day late and a dollar short. All those big ticket engineering jobs vanished. I did manage to have a job waiting for me upon graduation, a "cushy" government job as a DoD civilian with the Air Force, but the entry level salary of $28,535 (GS-5) turned me off, as well as having to relocate to a base smack in the middle of Georgia. I turned it down in hopes that I could catch a bigger fish closer to home... EE-YONK! EE-YONK! is the sound of a disillusioned electrical engineer who feels like a jackass.
Sure, there's EE jobs available, but the requirements are so pointed and specific that it looks like they are trying to attract back the same people who got laid off (or jumped ship) when the economy tanked. "Wanted: B.S. Engineering EE, ME,or CE & PMI Certification preferred. Project Engineer in power Distribution Substation Dept. Plan, design, & assemble project staff for Engineering Programs. Responsible for development, implementation, & maintenance of projects. 10+ years experience with demonstrated work experience with distributed control system hardware and software, preferably Honeywell TDC/TPS platform, work experience in applying ANSI/ISA S84.01 to safety shutdown systems, ability to manage multiple projects over $3 million." Not hardly the type of experience someone who is still wet behind the ears out of college has. The best I've been able to do is whore [roadwhore.com] myself out for temporary work.
Why the government is hiring (Score:2, Informative)
The other issue is that not a lot of people want to work for the government. The government is pretty much 180-degrees from any sort of hacker ethic. No reward for risk, HUGE levels of red tape and you're pretty much surrounded by frickin idiots. Case in point, another person I work with just got a promotion and raise of around $10,000/yr... why? not because she was qualified or an outstanding performer, but because the position was open.
If you're out of work, you have to take what you can get... but the mediocrity of government is killing me.
Grr. (Score:2)
:)
More realistically, its going to a i-used-to-be-in-the-military-so-i'm-used-to-shitt
Data point (Score:2)
Wife: Despite slowdown, she finds architecture job in one month from AIA web site.
Me: Finds Internet/broadcast engineering crossover job in three months from employer web site. Definately not my last job (which was Product Manager, streaming media), lots of new stuff to learn, is fun so far.
Four months later: Government job I applied for in January contacts me in mid April. Doh!
ummm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
in more on-topic news: all the more reason for people like your typical slashdot reader (who understands the problems of gov't waste) to get jobs working for the government.
Re:Geez, I know it's the captial and all, but (Score:2)
It's like NYC, you either love it or hate it. And I probably wouldn't want to raise kids there. But as a single person, how much fun is it to live in a major city?
Re:Geez, I know it's the captial and all, but (Score:2)
You can find plenty of almost affordable housing in the 25-50 mile range from the city, & there is a decent subway system - Metro [wmata.com] - once you get nearer to the city (ther are plans to extend it further out).
Re:Why work for the Gubmint? (Score:2)
Nothing wrong with getting your feet wet somehow.
Re:Why work for the Gubmint? (Score:2, Insightful)
You think government jobs aren't satisfying? Ask the guys who put men on the Moon and the rover on Mars. Ask the guys who designed some of the first software for processing satellite, spacecraft, and sonar imagery. Ask the guys who get to work in interesting environments with interesting people, like the guys managing electical and computer systems on ships involved in ocean exploration or on mountain tops and volcanos collecting climatological and earth processes data. Ask the guys working in the EPA, Forest Service, Park Service, and USGS who are part of protecting and maintaining the country's natural resources and natural beauty. There's a lot more to the government than just taxes, censuses, and human resources.
Re:Why work for the Gubmint? (Score:2)
I didn't find very interesting technical jobs listed on that web site. All the internet jobs were web site development (as opposed to infrastructure management and security). Of course if application development is your thing, there are a few jobs there for you. In the areas I work (network/system/OS administration), the government clearly hasn't been getting results in many areas, considering all the security messes, router failures, DNS inconsistencies, etc, I see going on (especially at NASA). Either they don't have people doing those jobs, or they stifle them somehow, or they hired the incompetent. I know I could certainly run things a whole lot better than they are run now. But I don't know if the bureaucracy would let that even happen.
Re:Why work for the Gubmint? (Score:2, Interesting)
Really?
I work for the DOD in a division of one of the military services. Our main business is weather. I've been a federal civilian employee since 1988. My computation date goes back to 1985 to include my military service.
I've been in the IT field since 1993. I have a BS in Information Science, which I worked towards and completed while I was employed by DOD.
When I started by current position in 1998, as a promotion to a GS-11 position, my gross annual pay (which includes the locality pay, an additional amount added to one's basic pay for cost-of-living expenses) was $38,593.
I received to step increases over the next two years, along with the normal 2-4% annual increases most federal employees get annually. In '99, my salary rose to $41,291. In '00, it went to $44,623.
Last year, the government realized that they were losing IT employees at too rapid a rate to the private sector and knew the only way to keep people employed in the service was to raise their pay to something comparable to the private sector.
In '01, my salary jumped to $52,226, about a 15% increase. This year, it moved up to $54.104.
In addition to my pay, I receive pretty decent medical benefits for with I pay about 25% of the annual cost (the Fed picks up up the rest). Also, my medical benefits expense comes off the top of my pay pre-tax.
I get cheap life insurance, and a pretty good retirement package, and I can contribute to a 401K-type plan that's done pretty well, with a government match of a percentage of my contribution. I get a generous annual leave and sick leave benefit.
If I took cash for the benfits, I'd say my annual salary would be close to $100K per year.
My bosses are appreciative of my work, and the job itself is challenging and satisfying. I have the freedom to try new ideas, including the use of open source concepts. We've had budget problems, and I've had to put some pet projects on the back burner...but mostly because I'm a one-man show. There's plenty for me to do, and they never hesitate to listen when I find new ways to solve old problems.
So, it looks like I work for a "small-medium sized company" (part of a larger organization) where I see "tangible results." Oh, yeah, I really feel like I'm doing something with my life.
Re:Why work for the Gubmint? (Score:2)
Re:First consider this (Score:2)
Naw. Once you've seen the inside, you gain new understanding. You get to chuckle at the misconceptions expressed within this forum. And you get to ridicule the ineptitude of those around you in your daily work schedule. And unlike the unknowing critics, you actually speak from experience.
Whats scarry is when the ignorant make outlandish observations that are actually far too close to the truth.
Re:Working in IT.. (Score:2)
Demand, maybe ... good pay? no! ... respect? forget it!
Go look at the executive positions in the government jobs. These are the people that make all the goofball decisions about things like what technology to use. And they can get paid as much as $130,000 for such things, while techies get only half that. It's a fundamental problem of respect. With a few hundred thousand techies out of work or underemployed (e.g. "would you like fries with that?") in the US, you'd think they could fill these IT positions quickly, even for that low pay. The problem really is that in most of these jobs, the management just don't give due respect to the value techies bring in. And that's often a more important motivating factor than money (which confuses managers).
Re:Thats not contractor pay (Score:2)
But jobs like that tend to be stuck in procedure (as in the bureaucratic type) hell and not real decision making roles. That pay may be decent, but when it's a third party job, you don't really get to run things.