The Bandwidth Dilemma: Coders vs. E-CEOs 91
EMlNEM sent an interesting talking piece that's currently running on Cryptome. It's a look at some of Leadbeater's work and what the "new Internet" is and what it is supposed to be. Katz did a take on this recently called The Myth Of the Tech Slump, which IMHO, was much better.
call me wacky (Score:1)
Am I the only one who thinks that major advances in consumer hardware and software exist for the sole purpose of playing games? I mean, the internet wasn't exactly meant for real-time communication, but the game industry seems to be taking it in stride... I'm sure they'll come up with stuff.
A recent Byte article talked about the Next Generation Internet and the government mandated promises that were supposed to be fulfilled. Among them were high end streaming audio and video, and I'm not so sure about the video part, but the audio part was handled pretty decently by MP3 (and Ogg Vorbis, and WMA, etc...)... So not all advances are going to come from geeks (academia), the entertainment people will be involved with it quite a bit methinks.
The news people? Push? ^^;;
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Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
mod this guy up (Score:1)
They just don't "get" it.
Re:You'd think they would learn... (Score:1)
Indeed, although there was a lot of smoke and mirrors about whether the P/E ratio was really relevant in the "new economy". Hence arguments that stock price vs. revenue _growth_ should be the proper measure rather than price vs. earnings. It sounds good on the surface, but it still doesn't give much of a clue if the business model is viable. IMO anyone who didn't expect the bubble to burst about a year before it did needs to get a better source of news---one without glossy pages, banner adds or extensive coverage of movie stars. I recommend the Economist.
To be fair to tech companies, many companies have been taking on debt, consumer confidence ain't great, consumers have been taking on massive debt, there was a media frenzy about the "R word", etc. Not a pretty picture. Let's just say "mistakes were made".
You're not a libertarian, then (Score:1)
That's not the Libertarian idea, although how you can claim to be a Green and a Libertarian is beyond me! It's like claiming to be gay and straight - choose one, you can't be on both bandwagons.
Look at the Cali energy crisis: public utilities should be severely regulated!
What California did to its energy providers could be described as many things - stupid, mindless, ignorant of basic realities - but it could never be called "deregulation" in any meaningful sense at all. So it is most certainly not an argument for regulation.
The fact is the people who are regulating it are utterly inept. This fake deregulation proves this - nothing more - and makes a great case for actual deregulation.
Re:Off-topic reply (Score:1)
Seriously though, making fun of people is fun.
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
The attitude of the early days of minicomputers and time sharing systems are closely linked to the attitudes of the people who developed the ARPANet. Which wasn't especially military yet, either.
The Endless September aside, the 'net has grown and profited by leaps and bounds since the microcomputer users hooked up to it. Sure, the signal to noise ratio has gotten worse. But there's also more signal, and that's pretty good too.
Cliche geek abbreviations? (Score:1)
Re:Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:1)
Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:1)
It's naive, I know. But wouldn't it be nice to have a medium which was:
Bring back the text-based (not ASCII!) Internet. Let's embrace Unicode, open standards and technologies designed by intelligent people thinking hard and collaborating to produce a substrate for a world-wide society for this the new millenium. GIFs can't be translated. Streaming animations won't animate the text-only terminal. Proprietry protocols are a great way to lock in monopolies of information, which leads to the advertising drivel that constitutes most TV and radio. Sometimes graphics are the best tool for the presentation of information. They're not the best way to display text content.
I hope I'm preaching to the converted, but all too often I see posts from people advocating the use of MSIE-targetted web pages (for example), or claiming that they shouldn't have to accomodate those people who 'can't afford' a real computer. It's much more important than that.
Never before has there been a chance to connect so great a proportion of the world's population together. Let's do it right - and keep it open and accessible. Let's educate people to use the 'net, not dumb down the 'net to the moronic standards that dominate our other media.
We don't need a stupid society.
Oh bullsh*t! (Score:4)
I so do not want to live in a world as described by Leadbeater... The net is perfectly fine the way it is, and in a very bottoms up, needs driven way, is evolving, albeitly in a non-hurried and eventful way, into whatever it is best suited and best needed for.
We *already* have television and radio networks for the dissemination of media and 'content'. The net itself is a self publishing, self pruning system where people can spout, and fade away to noise if no one wants to listen. I like it that way.
If I knew what I was working on, e-speak, would make the world *more* like Leadbeater's vision, I would quit.
It also sounds like Leadbeater is trying to 'rewrite' history to reflect his biases. I hope he fails!
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Heh. Yeah, something like that. (Score:2)
Dot-com slump/failure *was* due to an over-focus on technology, and lack of focus on market. If there is a technical development, it becomes a market when someone sells it correctly. Otherwise, it will flounder. If a dot-com had no market, it wasn't because the market didn't exist, it was because they failed to create, master, and maximize their market. They had excellent technical products without problems they could solve.
So to address some of your points: Buy groceries online?
How about combining a recipe site, with grocery shopping, with delivery services, as well as streaming video 'lessons'? How about adding 'cooking' services to deliver the finished meal to your home? How would you tailor it to make money? I don't know, but it seems natural to combine the many recipe sites with the grocery sites with the delivery sites.
Who wants to buy groceries online? How about people who don't know how to pick a canteloupe? Or know when to buy bananas? Or can't tell which wine is any good? Or can't decide between red potatoes or yellow potatoes? Or don't know the subtleties of the different cuts of steaks? There's people who don't cook, that's obvious, because of all the fast food restaurants and dine in places all over SiValley. My reasoning could be flawed, since I'm pulling from the experience of myself, my college friends, and all their friends. We cook for fun, but we don't know what we're doing ^^
<em>Online purchasing is ideal for commodity items where you know what you're getting the moment you order it. Books, CDs, software... </em>
The genius who can overcome this mindset and problem will make lots of money ^^. A limitation that can be overcome is called an opportunity.
Reread what you said. Books, CDs, software. How can you buy *new* books, CDs, and software, online, if you've never tried the book, heard the music, or used the software? There are *outside* distribution channels that sell these products, and the internet is just used to organize the buyers and sellers. So content sites that allow one to use software for free, unlock functionality for a nominal fee, and unlimited download and use for a higher fee, is an *opportunity*. Or with books. Browse for free. Read unlimited amounts online for a small service charge (maintenance fee?), get hardcopies for a small price. Same with CDs. Or DVDs. Etc.
There's a market. Someone who wants to get all the niceties of radio broadcast, or tv broadcast, or libraries, combine it with the catalog, search, review, and query capabilities of the internet, tie it with the relative distribution efficiency of the internet, as well as the large potential market audience, and finally tieing into the consumer need to 'own', can make lots of money. Right now they are all independent. I can look up reviews and information online. I can hear, read, or watch in real life. I can order and purchase online, in a separate transaction. I cannot yet get all three services from one site, or a group of sites. Amazon is *building* itself that way, but it's not there yet.
Do you see what I mean?
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Stagnation? (Score:1)
Did anyone else think it was strange to have strangers on the ski lift (or at the grocery store, or wherever) ask you which stocks to buy, just because you do "you know, computer stuff"? The thought that seemingly rational yuppies might want my investment advice shows how stupid things were getting.
The real effect of the Craziness was to get computers into all US middle-class homes. How many people do you know who don't have email? The hype and fear gave the computer/internet combination essential tool status. People will use those computers for something, and it wasn't to buy petfood and groceries. BFD, next.
Despite the fact that the hype failed to reflect reality a lot of infrastucture was built up very quickly. Games, email, research, porn, hobbies, web boards, IM/IRC chat, news. There are a lot of talented and enthusiastic amateurs going in all directions with all of the above.
So Leadbeater, et al. can have their new e-topia without geeks. I imagine it will be as joyless and over-hyped as the Craziness that is ending in Our Internet.
Buh Bye vc. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:4)
First off, there is one major misunderstanding at play here that I need to correct. Saying that the "dot-coms failed" is blatantly incorrect. The internet is the first truely new frontier we've had in a long time and I think a lot of people don't know their history about frontiers, development, and speculative investment. The first problem this caused was a huge speculative bubble when everyone and their mother was under the mistaken impression that the internet was pure gold on a platter for anyone willing to take advantage of it. The second problem this caused is (when the speculative bubble burst, as they always do) the prolification of all the naysayers who don't think the internet is worth a damn anymore. The truth of the matter is in between these extremes. Yes the internet is a great thing, for education, entertainment, and commerce. However, it doesn't mean that it's like a huge free pile of gold, it will take just as much hard work and determination to make money (or do anything of serious importance) on the internet as it takes to do make money or do anything of importance outside of the internet. And yes, there will be lots of failed businesses. This is to be expected. Look into the history of the railroad. In the early days it was frought with incompatible standards, rampant speculation, inflated stock prices, stock price collapses, investment scams, and failed businesses. And yet it was still an amazing achievement and an amazing opportunity for investment and it radically changed the world.
If you look at most of the failed internet dot-com startups you will see that they all follow a similar pattern. A possible "good idea" gets a large amount (millions) of venture capital. The company rapidly expands its workforce to be a "real company" with offices, servers, employees, etc. The company positively hemorrhages money, including money spent on commercials (*cough*superbowl 2000*cough*) to increase publicity and hopefully to rapidly (perhaps that should be explosively rapidly) expand their customer base. Lacking a business plan, existing customers, income, a long term strategy, or even a good operations plan (in combination with the fact that their attempt at publicity doesn't result in hordes of new customers) the company runs out of venture capital rapidly (gee I wonder where the money went) and they are forced to shut down in less than a year.
As any crack addicted disease addled senile monkey could tell you, that is not a good way to run a business. And there's no reason to believe (and in fact now we have ample reason to disbelieve) that there is something special about the internet that allows people to have a poorly managed company yet still make gobs of money. If you're going to make money on the internet (or anywhere) you need to 1) have a sound business plan, 2) expect (and plan for) reality not meeting with your expectations 3) keep costs low for as long as you can 4) build an existing customer base 5) build your service or production base (i.e. know wtf you are doing and continue to improve how you do it) 6) get a solid revenue stream 7) wait until you get firmly on your feet before reaching for the next level 8) make a plan for growth 9) plan for the worst 10) don't expect for (or plan for) that huge growth to come right away, it could, but it's more likely it will come later and when you least expect it, plan to keep up your "growing strategy" for a while, I would suggest something around 2 years being a good time frame. All of that is sound business advice. I don't know how people could think that a poorly thought out idea combined with pouring millions of dollars down a rat hole and then expecting that your business will grow at a mind boggling rate and expect to make all your startup capital back in 6 months or even a year is beyond me. And, apropos to the subject at hand, absurdly bad business strategy is not the fault of all us technogeeks.
Internet business is not dead, it is alive and thriving, and now it's all the better that the flock has been clensed of the weak and diseased.
Oh, puhlese! (Score:1)
I got one word for ya, baby: Java.
Read Netslaves (Score:1)
Re:False idea of what is "natural" (Score:2)
For example, catalogs. Catalogs cost money to make and to ship yet they are the primary way for people to see and order from your business. Web based stores are similar. It costs money to maintain a web site, but you've got to do it right. Few mail order companies charge for their catalogs and catalogs rarely have advertisements, they make their money from orders. They can be profitable because all they have to do is have a warehouse full of products, a good system (and a few employees) to fulfil orders, a small support staff, and produce a catalog. Of course, it's important that you have something worthwile to sell and you manage your business correctly, but it's a strategy that works. Being in the e-commerce business I know tons of small and medium sized business that make good money selling stuff on the internet in essentially the same manner a catalog business (aka mail order / telephone order business). Amazon.com would be making money right now if they weren't leveraging their income and investment capital to grow.
For businesses that don't sell products or services directly they will need to think of ways to make money. They should look to how other companies do it. Advertisements are one answer but they need to be executed well. We know that banner advertisements are not very effective, I think some people need to look at what advertising techniques are effective in other media and which ones are effective on the internet (or perhaps there are new techniques for the internet). Very little research (or indeed effort) has gone into such a critically important area.
And, of course, there is always the subscription model which has worked well in the past and should in the future (if done right). People will pay money if you provide them with something they like. We already pay a good chunk of money just for getting online so I guess we must think there is something worth laying cold hard cash down for online. And, I believe, that will be a much better way to go.
Keep in mind though that this world wide web thing is still fairly new and it still has plenty of growing up to do. The Jet engine wasn't invented until many decades after the first powered flight, and commercial air travel didn't really take off until almost half a century of flying. Similarly, it was decades before good quality roadways, highways, and even automobiles existed after the first "horseless carriage" was invented. Same thing goes for the telephone, it was ages after it's invention before most homes had one. I don't think it will take quite that long for the internet to become firmly entrenched (or more so anyway) in our lives and our commerce but it will take time for it to reach the level of other inventions that have been around for many generations.
Re:Oh, puhlese! (Score:1)
Oh yeah, that's why the whole 'book' concept has been such a dismal failure throughout history. They had a niche until Radio, Movies and TV arrived but nobody reads them anymore. Who wants to read a fixed text?
Sheesh.
What a load of.... (Score:1)
And this gem: "According to Leadbeater the 'first Internet' failed because the technologists and geeks, in the end, triumphed over the CEOs and their managers ". Gee, I thought it was all the idiot CEOs on a spending spree trying to cash in on IPO money that fucked all the first wave of companies.
I'd quote more but I got so annoyed I had to stop reading halfway. This guys opinion doesn't count for a whole lot and its a shame people listen to him.
Jon Katz on NPR (Score:2)
The RealAudio story is here:
http://www.marketplace.org/shows/2001/02/07_mpp.h
Jon Katz's story starts 19 minutes into the program.
There are also some other interesting stories in the program, like how Mexico just got the right for its truckers to use US highways due to a NAFTA court. Something called Pink Slip Happy Hour in SF, where people who are looking for jobs can meet recruiters in a more social setting (and how different people are handling getting laid off from dotcoms). And a comedy piece about what it'll be like when Microsoft starts making home appliances.
Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:1)
You're missing the point. The point is that there are people in power out there who hate technology, who don't understand it and are afraid of it. Because of their positions of power, they're forced to accept the technology, but they will never trust it.
Leadbeater is talking to those people. Those of us who know better are completely irrelevant - we're overhearing a conversation we can't particpate in. Leadbeater is speaking the fears of those in power, and validating those fears. He's providing them with a "rationale" that will justify taking technology out of the hands of the skilled, and putting it under the control of the luddites.
Nothing you say, here or anywhere else, has any value - unless you are in a position of power.
Re:You're not a libertarian, then (Score:1)
how you can claim to be a Green and a Libertarian is beyond me!
Actually, I'm genuinely curious about this, since (to, admittedly, grossly oversimplify), the "Green" party line is roughly "Government should take control of everything to protect us" while the "Libertarian" party line is "Government should go stand in the corner and let us protect ourselves as best we can, which can't be any worse than Government is doing now." That being the case, how do you combine the two? Government mandated personal freedoms?
Perhaps the poster meant combining the "anti-corporate" theme of the Green party with the "personal [individual] freedoms" theme of the libertarians, which I can't argue too much with, personally. (Though I do, personally, subscribe to fairly strongly libertarian views, I do feel that treating a corporation as a "person" makes a mockery of the rights and priviledges of actual individuals...On the other hand...corporations are government-made entities, so I don't see anti-corporatism as being necessarily anti-libertarian, either.)
To the comment from the original poster that the problems here in California prove that "public utilities should be severely regulated!" - is "You can pay a pile of money for wholesale power, but you can only charge customers a fraction of that when you sell it" sound like severe enough regulation for you? While the above post's rebuttal was a bit blunt, I don't see that it was innaccurate - the power industry is, and has been, subject to a lot of regulation - where power providers are allowed to buy from, how much they're allowed to charge, whether or not they can own their own power plants, when and where they can build NEW power plants...This Was Not Deregulation, it was Reregulation!.
Mind you, the power companies are not totally blameless - they evidently signed on to the re-regulation plan quite willingly, thinking they were going to make a killing manipulating the new system.
Rumor has it that they have real deregulation of power in Pennsylvania, and that it's working quite well. Any Pennsylvanians out there want to confirm or deny this?
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"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"
Re:gggrrrrrrr - Tron (Score:1)
Hey, Tron RULED!
Geeks CREATE the "rich experience"... (Score:2)
I'll admit up front that I haven't read the article - the comments already posted about it tell me that it's probably a waste of time. The theme, apparently, is that "geeks" are preventing the internet from being a spiffy, flashy experience. Obviously, that's ignorant foolishness. Not only would getting geeks out of the 'net not make it prettier, it would prevent the continued development of the "Rich Experience®" that the marketroids are pushing...:
And I'm certain there are plenty more examples people could add to this list...
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"They have strategic air commands, nuclear submarines, and John Wayne. We have this"
Re:Heh. Yeah, something like that. (Score:1)
I'll admit, if I find a single bit of info while flipping through a book, I'll jot down a quick note. If the rest of the book sucks, I won't buy it.
ti_dave
gggrrrrrrr (Score:3)
Leadbeater sounds like someone trying to sell people on the easy life of a canary in a cage with a firewire connection straight into the skull.
He sees the Internet not as an information system or a data system, but a world wide entertainment system, or a world wide hedonism system. All for his profit, fun, and folly.
The analogy I would make for the Internet vs the WWW is life coming on land from the sea. All life depends on the sea, and you ignore it at your peril. But land dwellers tend to be myopic and ignorant of anything not rooted in their particular clod of mud.
I recall several dumb movies from someplace (and a few dumb shows) where everyone was wired into the shoot-them up games systems, and the fantasy lives of being directly wired in.
This man sounds like just the fool to sell us on this, or to sell us on being Borg.
the danger in any of these, despite the apparent advantadges, is being a drone for the system, not being in control of your own life. I do not fancy life as a bloated corpusle is the body of cyber-consumerism
This ties in so well with the story the other day about excessive computer use making people stupid (actually, causing memory loss). (NB - entitled "Are Computers Stealing Your Memory? [slashdot.org]")
Sounds like Leadbeater is a poster child for the cause.
[/rant]
Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:1)
BTW: my favorite form of reductionism used by PHB's and others who don't know how to do your job: "It's only coding". Yeah, well, about nuclear physicists: "It's only splitting atoms". There, now, don't you feel superior?
It's easy to make such broad strokes and say dumb things like "geeks don't understand business". Or "techies are holding business back". What's harder to do is to really suggest a good solution to problems, rather than just blaming a group of people are presumably not running businesses anyway. If PHB's can do it better, why aren't they?
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
And what people would that be? Most folks I know want e-mail (with maybe the occasional jpeg attachment), on-line banking and shopping, the occasional bit of research, and of course Napster, and that's about it. None of which require "immersive media".
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Failed due to Geeks? Or Morons... (Score:3)
Sorry, but the recent dot-com slump has nothing to do with an over-focus on technology, it has to do with a lack of common sense and sound business judgement.
Most of the dot-coms going out of business today are doing so because they have no market. VC's saw something that seemed sexy and new, and they dumped their money into it with little or no thought to the matter. Who really wants to buy groceries online? Would you buy a thick, juicy steak off a drop-down menu?!? Or would you rather pick out the most appetizing one in the butcher section of your supermarket?
Nobody wants to buy clothes online -- half the experience is the visit to the store. Online purchasing is ideal for commodity items where you know what you're getting the moment you order it. Books, CDs, software... When businesses try to force a new distribution channel down people's throats that no one wants, the market responds.
It's not about technology, it's about common sense.
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So? (Score:1)
So what?
Was the internet improved by the presence of internet-oriented businesses? Their major contribution to the net was banner ads. What about all that porn? I've seen estimates that 50% (conservatively) of Net traffic is porn (although that's probably been displaced by MP3s by now). If all the banners and porn and worthlesscommodity.com sites vanish, then that just leaves more bandwidth for stuff that is actually important and useful.
A possible counterargument: The presence of large amounts of money on the net also supports expansion, upgrades, and maintenance.
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:4)
There is a simple reason why geeks, and yes, even normal people, hate GIFS. The blinking ones are annyoing as hell! They get tacky very fast, as proven by this [tripod.com] page of abominations. Simple is elegant is better. This doesn't only apply to geeks my friend. This is pure common sense.
Ok, let's examine that statement. Amazon, a corporation which "dominates the internet" is run by one of the biggest self-admitted geeks of them all: Jeff Bezos. If you look more closely, I believe you'll find that the corporations dominating the internet are running it through the geeks, not leaving them in the dust. Most conventional corporations wouldn't have a clue how to run an e-commerce program, a large scale network, or other highly technical fields. Those require the "geeks" you complain are left out of the big picture.
Let's face it: what could we, the geeks, provide that would be of interest to the common man. Geeks (in a general stereotypical statement) enjoy technical matters, so-called "dry academia" as you stated. That's why we're here reading slashdot, buying o'reilly books, and doing other such geek-ish things. The common man (in another stereotypical statement) does not enjoy the same things we do. They actually want to recieve news from corporations like CNN, be able to order merchandise online, and interact with corporations, not technical academia. Geeks could not provide a "common man's internet" even if we tried.
So, in summation, your comment has a few valid points, but seems to be missing the fact that geeks never really had a chance to dominate the whizz bang internet of the common man in the first place. That's why sites here like
Either that was an elegant troll, or you are wrong...
47.5% Slashdot Pure(52.5% Corrupt)
There isn't a next BIG internet thing... (Score:1)
Capitalism vs.... (gasp!) Socialism! (Score:4)
Failed? It was awesome!
I was just talking to a guy on the train about this last week. I was reminiscing about the high-signal-to-noise days of the early days of Usenet over the Arpanet (late 1980's). He was yacking on about some new startup making pay-as-you-go chips that was gonna be the next e-boom,
I was telling this guy that I thought e-commerce was a big capitalist gang-bang, and that it (and advertising) has ruined then internet. And reminded him that the Internet was originally a SOCIALIST program, meaning, government "controlled", funded with tax dollars... and it worked real well!
I couldn't belive that I was saying this, as I'm a Green [greenparty.org]/Libertarian [lp.org], and the term "socialism" is anathema to the Libs, (as well as the Dems and the Repubs).
But think about it: Certain things SHOULD be funded by a socialist model. The roads, for example. In a "free market" system, you'd have 2 toll roads going between the same 2 points, with the toll takes competing/colluding for your money. Look at the Cali energy crisis: public utilities should be severely regulated!
Look at the capitalist/commercial media in America. It sucks. It does not inform, it does not provide a balanced view of things, the corporations control the elections... the capitalist media does nothing well, but produce/distribute SPAM.
The socialst media in Canada and England produce some wonderful art (Imagine Monty Python or The Young Ones being produced in America?). The only thing like it in America is Public Access TV [openchannel.se], or community radio (like what Pacifica [pacifica.org] is/was/tries to be) which has a socialist funding model with a decentralized authority (just like DNS).
I say its time for a return to the Socialst (economic) internet model, with the goals of decentralization and free speech, get the profit-seekers off the 'net, and immediately delcare the Deja archive [deja.com] a national treasure, with the goal of an UNCENSORED archive being restored/preserved for the good of mankind.
Call me a dreamer
Bandwidth secondary to user experience... (Score:2)
Damn straight. And I want my holographic TV, too. Wish those geeks would stop forcing me to worry about bandwidth and computation and optics. None of the CEOs I've met seem to worry about that stuff.
Reading things like this makes me wonder just what it takes to get published. Certainly not expertise or deep understanding.
Good points, but... (Score:2)
He complains that web ads don't make us laugh. Boo-f*cking-hoo. T.V. ads are pretty lame. People don't like them. Their effectiveness lies in our inability to avoid them. Now that we can program our content-gathering machines, we are finding ways to ditch the ads. These methods are catching on as people get more and more annoyed with them. We will ditch the ads and never go back. There will always be a place for some advertising on the web, but few websites will rely on them for revenue. When micropayments become viable, people will realize that they can pay for exactly what they want, and nothing more, and they will do it gladly. With that money as a direct result for good content, a more diverse base of content providers will be motivated and capable of satisfying customers, and the result will be a solidifying of the diversity of the web, not a collapse of it.
Re:Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:1)
If I live in poverty in a third world country, having access to the 'net won't change my life one bit. I'm lucky if I can even READ, let alone benefit from using a computer. Show me an internet application that cures world hunger, and then I'll believe that 'net will truly change the world we live in.
...not to mention pay-per TV w/fewer moving parts (Score:2)
I also think his opinion of what people want/use the Net for is way off, too. Glitz, f/Flash and entertainment? Sure, but it's also a great way of getting information, something he completely overlooks--maybe because he really thinks the sheeple don't need it (?). Then again, I also agree that over-commercializing on the Net is kind of turning this big old library into one of those late-night infomercials.
At any rate, people who think that capital-B Business is the Saviour of the World[TM] make me want to go take a shower...or three. Let's hear it for the geeks, nerds, freaks, and weirdos!
(Hmmm...I bet Leadbeater's actually secretly pissed because the little guy he used to beat up on in high school is now making 10x his salary computer geeking all day...)
Oh, and ip4noman, friend...? Canadian media is (partially) socialized, not socialist. You must be some kind of Libertarian if you can't/don't/won't make that distinction. One is a societal practice, the other is a political philosophy. And (this offends my soul!) you forgot to mention the Air Farce, which kicks the Young Ones' butt around the block three times.
But you speak rightly about the regulation thing. (I love my OHIP!!)
?! -- ?!
Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:3)
Re:Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:2)
There are more important things than the Internet, sure. Like food. But information access is still more than just a luxury.
In many places poverty is the result of a power differential. (In many others of course it can be the result of natural disasters, but bear with me!) One of the tools which allows power structures to remain entrenched is control over information. Free access to unfiltered information won't be a panacea, but it can certainly help to curb the worst abuses of power. When people can communicate quickly and anonymously, abuses can be addressed earlier and more effectively.
Most people seem to have a sense of justice. So when the message can get out, the population at large can effect change. There would have been no outrage at Nike for its explotive practices had no news of them ever come to light.
Of course information by itself is insufficient - there has to be a critical reader at the receiving end. Here again, the Internet can provide educational resources where there would otherwise be none, or very carefully controlled selection. The control of the 'net by advertising interests will see such applications marginalised or controlled.
Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:1)
why was I kept current?
Next time the geeks destroy the hopes and dreams of the visionaries we need to make sure that we all get our fair share of the spoils.
Also: dotcom mani [dictionary.com] ???
References
[1] Hart, Claudia, "A child's Machiavelli-a primer on power"
Re:Cliche geek abbreviations? (Score:1)
IMHO, RTFM, ETC... these sorts of abrieviations didn't come from l33t d00dz who wanted to look cool on chatrooms. They came from people who used BBSs and USENET before most people knew what a network was. Those people (I was part of them) just wanted to communicate faster. They aren't used to be flashy or cool -- they're used to type faster.
Personally, I think the word 'the' is overused to the point of being cliche. You should find some other word to use in its place if you want to be fashionable.
... to say nothing of the word 'cliche'.
Re:Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:1)
However, most of the world's societies have not yet laid a foundation that adequately prepares them for the "information age". In the U.S. we are extremely spoiled...even those who live in abject poverty or homelessnes have incredible access to services and information. But in most of the rest of the world access to more information would do them little, if any, good.
For example...I can post the schemactics to build a space shuttle, but if I don't have the appropriate technology base then having the information doesn't offer any value to me (other than knowing that something like that can be done).
I fundamentally believe the Internet is the Earth's new way of sharing information. However, I'm not sure everyone is ready for its benefits yet.
By the way, you mentioned the story about Nike using exploitive practices. Personally, I think its horrible that they did what they did. But what was the opinion of the people working FOR Nike. After we forced them to shut down the plants, did the people working there get another job? Or did the information actually harm them more??
However, the Internet might be a great enabler for building the porper foundations.
Re:katz (Score:1)
Re:Heh. Yeah, something like that. (Score:1)
Regarding "trying the books"; I'm the guy you may have seen inside of the brick-and-mortar bookstore, sitting down and skimming the preface, chapters and index of that book. Works for me
Actually, it'd be good... (Score:1)
We already have stupid society (Score:1)
Re:Bandwidth secondary to user experience... (Score:1)
Does not matter whether you are technically correct, it's how well you can sling the buzzwords.
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
Hopefully a 'free internet' has been embraced and will never be altered.
But let's say, for example, all other web browsers die off and the only way to access the web from a PC is via the MS OS and IE (I know, a stretch, but bear with me).
So one day John Smith and his MS-Sux.net website pissed of MS and in that night's auto-update, everyone's browsers no longer will go to MS-Sux.net.
Or perhaps Cisco gains so much control over network hardware, they force ISP's to block access to some sites whom they are offended by.
Or perhaps ISP's just keep loosing money and figure they have to do subscriptions like HBO- so you have to subscribe to various websites to access them.
Things are good now, but for how long. Remain vigilent! Lets just hope the idiots responsible for passing the DCMA aren't around when the above scenarios are played out.
Kool
Re:Say 'no' to the Advertinet (Score:2)
Re:The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mani (Score:1)
Grab.
Re:Capitalism vs.... (gasp!) Socialism! (Score:2)
Having two competing systems going between two points doesn't sound like such a bad idea, either. Far from being inefficient, a little redundancy would create a more robust system (as compared to "take 101, and only 101, and if there's a crash, you're all screwed").
And the theory of course is that two competing agencies are encouraged to cut prices and improve service. Sometimes it even works that way. Look at supermarkets. Look at long distance phone pricing after the ma bell breakup. Look at the fall in airline prices and the rise in airline usage (with no decline in safety).
(And the energy crisis here in California just goes to show that there are scum out there who will play orwellian name games using whatever jargon is popular at the moment. Whatever was really going on out here, it doesn't look much like real "deregulation" to me.)
I could quibble with some of your examples here, too -- for example, a popular libertarian line is to claim that cable television is doing a better job at educational TV than PBS, with things like the Discover channel and the Nature channel.But I find it hard to walk away from the fact that a lot of the big money media comes up really lousy stuff. The capitalist argument would be "hey, we're just giving them what they want, who are you to tell people what they should like?" But is that the whole story? Are people in general really so lame that network TV has their number?
I think that if you really want to get some where, you're going to need a model of reality a little deeper than "capitalism vs socialism". Okay, maybe you like PBS better than CBS, NPR better than Rush Limbaugh. What about the New York Times? Should they be government owned?
And how is "volunteer" actvity like "Pacifica" socialist in any sense? Pacifica uses very little tax money -- for a long time they didn't use any at all.
(I can't believe you call yourself a "Green/Libertarian". WTF? On the other hand, I voted for Nader this time, and Browne last time, so maybe I'm getting there too.)
Could these ideas further commercialise the web? (Score:1)
Okay, I think he is absolutely correct with this point. People do want the internet to be an interesting, whizz bang immersive media experience, and the people who are implementing the internet are not providing it. The geeks who built the internet have eschewed interesting presentation and content in favour of dry academia. The builder of the WWW, Tim Berners Lee, was even against the use of pictures in Web pages for a long time, and the geek antipathy to GIFS is well known.
Is it any wonder then that the internet has come to be dominated by corporations? These are the only organisations that have had the foresight and desire to implement the common mans preferences. From AOL to Amazon, these are the organisations now controlling the internet, much to the geeks chagrin.
In my view, the geeks had their chance. But, they threw it away by being all to idealistic. We had a chance, an opportunity, for a commerce free web, an arena of equality and information. But we did not grasp it, we did not show enough imagination. It is our fault, us, the geeks, that the commercial corporations are taking the initiative and providing the internet that the common man wants.
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
I knew it. (Score:2)
The phrase "I do not watch television" is not just some cliche. More and more people are turning the stupid thing off. I think the TV people are starting to get nervous about all those eyeballs turning their eyeball-backs on them. They want that revenue back somehow but their beloved dot-coms with their eyeball snatching banner ads are going down the toilet. So much for the promise of easy bucks.
No, they have to provide some sort of internet content that TV sponge-heads will enjoy. Then it's just a matter of product placement. Sponge-heads can't be bothered to read, so so much for ASCII and traditional web pages that have all those WORDS on them. Must have shiny things that move and canned laughter to stimulate those tired neurons into dull laughs and scripted emotinal moments.
Now, after all that, I must concede that there will most likely be some sort of Second Coming of the Internet. It will be more like the four horsemen. (I had a high school biology teacher named "Horse-man" but that's another post). Higher bandwidth will enable the type of content and advertising that is akin to television.
But of course all is not lost. Some of us are already planning for that very eventuality and are warming up our VPN skills at this moment. You see, if a wall need be built to keep the riff-raff out, it will be built. Invite-only VPNs will be everywhere as Oasis's for the weary "New Internet" sufferer.
Kill your television.
Sorry about the typos and other assorted errors. This ain't easy with lynx.
Yeah, sure. (Score:1)
The next Big Thing won't be the internet. (Score:1)
The next big thing, whatever it ends up being, will not come from a self-improtant consultant, but from the mind of bright student somewhere, who probably doesn't even realize yet that their crazy idea will revolutionize the infromaion/entertainment industry.
We are the Cochroaches (Score:1)
You can't have it both ways (Score:2)
Which of the following does this guy want?
1. Fancy designs that are flashy and interactive which grab the users (using html "hocus pocus" that he says scared them off in the first place)
or
2. Straight-forward non-"hocus pocus" layout which won't grab the user but won't scare them away
That's one of the main issues with web design, I'd say. He seems to advocate both and neither simultaneously. .com business acumen, bandwidth availability, capitalism vs. socialism on the net, etc. and makes blanket statements which don't cover the minutia that interact to make the net work.
This perhaps highlights that the article's demonstration of a certain naivete about the internet, and the sort of gross overgeneralizations contained therin. Interesting ideas, but they're built on faulty logic. He totally ignores the things other posters have mentioned such as
Overall, it's an uninformed screed.
Re:There isn't a next BIG internet thing... (Score:1)
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
Uh, yeah, and geeks do? Has Amazon.com even gone into the black yet? Geeks give themselves too much credit.
Re:Failed due to Geeks? Or Morons... (Score:1)
er, I would. And I do. I purposely do not own a car, and so 6-10 bags of groceries is quite hard to carry home.
www.tesco.com has apparently reached the top 10 ecom sites in the UK....so presumably some people other than me are buying.
Other than that, yes I agree.
This Leadbeater guy is not alone (Score:1)
I won't say his name for fear of the backlash, but he talked about how we need to take the "IT out of digital marketing and the Internet" and (even scarier) how we need to provide wireless access to developing countires so we can.....turn them into consumers. Not to feed them, or help them build an economy...he wants to give them the ability to make money so people can market to them!
I've been involved with the Internet since '94, and what scared me the most was that the majority of the people in attandace agreed with him!
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:2)
Is there some grace period between concept description and usage I should know about so I don't sound like a loser in the future? All I really want in life is people I'll never meet to think that I am smart and knowledgable.
Anyway, the other reply is closer to my intent.
Read the article! (Score:2)
--
Re:Oh bullsh*t! (Score:1)
AOL!
I have to say my only question for Leadbeater is one from Dilbert: "Since when did ignorance become a point of view?"
Re:Capitalism vs.... (gasp!) Socialism! (Score:1)
IMHO regulation is only really important in the realm of antitrust, truthful advertising and safety. The first to prevent the collusion you describe with the toll roads; the second to ensure that when you buy a product you're getting what you asked for; the third to make sure that your jeans don't cause your head to fall off. The last _could_ emerge naturally from a market unregulated in that respect, but I don't trust businesses enough to not sell jeans that make peoples heads fall off far enough down the road that it doesn't matter. Like cigarette companies lying about their product's addictive and carcinogenic properties. If they'd been up front about it, that would have at least been a mark in their favor.
More centralized systems than that though seem to result in accumulations of power. Be they in businesses or paternalistic governments I don't feel comfortable either way. And even that isn't so hot. Perhaps there's a much better system that hasn't been invented yet, but we're stuck for now.
Re:You'd think they would learn... (Score:2)
1: Write dumb business plan that will never work.
2: Get $X in funding where X is a large number
3: Extract $Y from $X where Y X and won't be noticed
4: Allow company to go bust.
5: Let media laugh at you becuase you lose $(X-Y) in virtual money. Not let on that you now have $Y money left over.
Providing $Y is a reasonable sum of money e.g. $1million then your average Geek has done OK for a years work, even if he has lost $499 in virtual money.
Geeks vs. corporations: who won? :-) (Score:2)
<sarcasm> So he wants us to ignore the tiny little geek-driven companies like Yahoo! [yahoo.com] and look forward to the successes achived by Time-Warner's immense Pathfinder effort? </sarcasm>
(I'd include a URL for Pathfinder, but the site isn't there any more; it just redirects to Time.com.)
That sounds like a game title. (Score:1)
"To win the game you must hack ME, Bill Gates."
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
In any event, the point that I was trying to make was freedom of speech is a key element of the Internet's continued existence.
Re:Capitalism vs.... (gasp!) Socialism! (Score:1)
Internet != TV (Score:2)
AOLTimeWarner can't afford the techno toppia but w (Score:1)
Centralized planning doesn't work. QED.
The Internet failed? Or was it just dotcom mania? (Score:5)
So it didn't fail because people who rushed into being a dot.com with a plan no more complicated than "We want to make money online and fast, we don't care how". I failed because of all the geeks and nerds and their technology? Wow.
Frankly, the idea that the Internet "failed" because pets.com didn't crush your local pet store is kind of silly. As a geek, the Internet is still chugging along nice for me. And even for my non-geek friends, the continued growth in websites for research papers and entertainment, communication through instant messengers and email, and online gaming galore, means that the Internet hasn't failed for them either.
Maybe it's just my lack of business experience, but this author sounds like someone who's upset that eCommerce wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and now wants to create the "next big thing".
Another .NET troll ? (Score:1)
if Katz's article was better (Score:3)
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:3)
What a crock of shit. If geeks are incapable of creating the internet that the common man wants, just how exactly are the supposed to stop somebody else from stepping in and creating it? Think about it. You have roughly three choices:
Guess what. None of these scenarios results in the open, wonderful, commerce free web you want. It's impossible for the web to be both open and to keep corporations out.
Anyway, who cares? The dry, academic, non-commercial side of the web is still there for the people who want it. There are tons of academic papers, personal web pages, and all of the kinds of things that existed on the web before it was corporatized. In fact, in many ways it's better than before it was corporatized because there are now vastly better authoring and content management tools available to the common man because corporations needed them to develop their web content. And there's also the flashy, whizz band side of the net that the people who don't want the dry academic stuff are interested in.
Yawn... (Score:3)
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:3)
It means that the internet isn't a pie of a fixed size, where the only way to get more of it is to take it away from somebody else. The creation of corporate web sites has not eliminated the right of ordinary people to create the web sites that they want to make (litigation aside). If Disney wants to create a massive web portal that draws 1 billion hits per day, it has zero impact on my ability to create my goldfish cam page.
Off-topic reply (Score:1)
She offers web design services [tripod.com]. Maybe it has something to do with the beer I've been drinking, but seeing anyone who creates a page this ugly [tripod.com] offer web design services is really funny.
Give Leadbeater enough rope to hang himself (Score:1)
I would like to suggest that those in a position to do so, encourage Leadbeater to continue at full speed on his current course. I would also want to encourage other moronic eCEOs and venture capitalists to follow his lead. Let me explain.
I get the idea that Leadbeater is suggesting that future eCompanies should avoid geeks. Well thats fine by me. I don't want to be stuck in cubicle at AOL/Time Warner for any period of time anyway. Of course, when you remove the geeks from your potential work force, what are you left with? A bunch of second rate tech staff whose only motivation is that the Net is supposed to be a pot of gold. People like that would have trouble maintining a LAN with 4 win9x machines, let alone a webserver..... Any companies in that position will collapse even faster than the current crop; Leadbeater is headed on a course of self-destruction. An appropriate ending for such a man.
It seems to me that other
Not another one of these guys... (Score:2)
This Leadbeater fellow sounds an awful lot like Nicholas Negroponte and his aimless ramblings about how my doorbell and shower would be telling me about my new emails and other such drivel. The reason I stopped reading Wired years ago (way back when it was still considered somewhat on the ``cool'' side).
I, for one, am getting more than a little sick and tired about these marketing know-nothings ranting on about wanting to enhance/maximize/whatever my ``internet experience''. I've experienced AOLs style of ``internet experience'' and said No thanks. But bozos like Leadbeater will need to shove it down my throat whether I want it or not.
Unfortunately, if we just ignore idiots like Leadbeater, they won't just go away. They'll find some clueless CEO and add yet another member to their cult of ignorance (after all: ignorance is bliss).
--
Re:There isn't a next BIG internet thing... (Score:1)
Though honestly, I'm not sure if that applies to the internet. Other than the basic concept of a de-centralized global network, there isn't much *core* ideology inherent in the 'net. Perhaps the concept of the browser/WWW/http protocol, I believe that such a concept is well-rooted in the minds of the 'netters, and that it will prevail. After all, when people think of the internet, they mostly think of the http protocol - things like ftp and smtp/pop are more of an afterthought.
Exactly backwards (Score:1)
I think that the market will choose not to decide, if we can keep it free enough to make that choice. People who want shiny toys will have them; people who want meat-and-potatoes information will have it. Everybody wins.
Re:Cliche geek abbreviations? (Score:1)
Re:Failed due to Geeks? Or Morons... (Score:1)
er, I would.
I dunno, every time I think about having groceries delivered, I remember _Death Wish_.
fucking right (Score:2)
It's amazing there isn't more of a stigma against it. I mean, people can smoke crack all day long for all I care, but you don't expect them to come in to work and freely admit it.
You can have a worthwhile job, spend the necessary time to be a good hacker, and then you can have enough time left over either to play video games, watch TV, or have a social life.
So, the corps wanted to turn the net into Television v2.0, and it didn't work out. Thank Christ. A bunch of assholes lost a lot of money. Good.
Re:Cliche geek abbreviations? (Score:1)
Re:Heh. Yeah, something like that. (Score:2)
Right now they are separate activities; browse a book in a store, or a library, or a friend's bookshel. Listen to music over the radio, on a friend's CD, or on the music channel. See a movie on TV, etc.
If someone could combine the browse, the search, the information, and the purchase of items all on one site, they might have something powerful ^^
Geek dating! [bunnyhop.com]
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:1)
Money talks. "Geeks" do not magically wave a wand and make the Internet their own. Nor do they close the door to the Internet on corporation. Doing so would make the Internet the very opposite of the principle it was founded upon: Freedom of speech.
The most effective communication medium is used by the masses. Get used to it. I, a computer literate person, am not intimidated.
You'd think they would learn... (Score:3)
Of course, it is true that it's up to the corporate sector rather than the geeks to make the Internet a better experience for the average user, and they did it. They just couldn't make the ridiculous amount of money they projected. That's the fault of the executives, not the geeks.
The future is simple.... (Score:1)
Re:Could these ideas further commercialise the web (Score:3)
As for us "giving up our chance," I don't think its creators were going for fame and glory, so to speak. The Internet turned out the way it did because the original primary users wanted it that way. When you want raw information in a hurry, boring pages work quite well. I don't need dramatic or interactive API documentation. If the "common man" wants that, he can pay someone to do it. Just so long as the Internet doesn't become one huge, interlinked Flash animation, it won't bother me.
The Internet isn't a zero-sum game. There's plenty of room for everyone.