Robot soccer - AIBO Blown Away 100
Chilli writes "The results of RoboCup 2000 (the 4th RoboCup world championships) are out. There was a big suprise in the four legged robot league, which consistently uses AIBO hardware. UNSW United blew the competition away. In the final, they won 10-0 against last year's champion. The success was largely due to a new walking technique developed by the UNSW team."
why ? (Score:2)
Every other country in the World plays football, yet all the Americans play soccer.
American football is nothing more than a girls rugby, has it's own World league, in which no other countries participate.
.
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
if you are a corporation or private party and wish to create a link.
/. isn't, is it?
-J
Re:battle bots (Score:2)
Um, no. The battle bots are remote controlled by people (and are pretty boring, but that's just IMHO), the soccer robots are run by AI.
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Silly American. (Score:1)
Axel
Hockey Droids? (Score:3)
Re:Soon at Sony's (Score:1)
No mention of the pies! (Score:2)
After all, during a cold, wet, wind-swept 3rd Division game on a Tuesday evening in December I've only had the humbe pie to keep me warm.
Yeah, but only... (Score:1)
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
Re:Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaal (Score:1)
It's the same with other sports (Score:1)
and so are called MLB champs...
It's the same attitude to call USA "America"
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Re:The current problem with robocup (Score:2)
Unimpressed (Score:1)
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
In what sense? Slashdot is owned by a public corporation. It was purchased back in '99 by Andover.net, which subsequently went public. Shortly after its IPO, Andover was acquired by another public corporation, VA Linux, for cash and stock reportedly worth around $900 million.
Re:"AIBO blown away"? (Score:2)
Sibling rivalry at its worst!
So can I watch it somehow? (Score:1)
Re:They merely hamper you (Score:1)
We'd be better off without love, hate and other emotions? What would have motivated humans to create so many ingenious things that have no direct use towards immediate survival if *not* emotions?? If nothing else, think of how many scientific advances were made in the pursuit of better war machines. Do you suggest such advances are not a result of hate for an enemy or love of one's (war-threatened) family?
Further, consider that genetic selection KEPT humans who could 'Love' as a way to ensure parents stayed together at least long enough to raise their offspring. Or look at how it seems to be a genetic advantage to love your kinsmen and friends -- so that when one is threatened, social bonds lead the rest to assist ... and thereby ensure more chances for your gene pools to reproduce.
You may think that this is outdated and no longer relevant to our species, but consider: humans still try to *achieve*. Why? Because it is a means of gaining social rank ... which gives access to better mates (and a stronger tribe) to forward their genes. Achievement is as an indirect product of the strongest emotions. It is from our desire for emotional fulfillment that the side effect of advancing science occurs.
I doubt we would we bother to achieve anything without emotional drives.
Re:The current problem with robocup (Score:1)
During the true competition UNSW had only one goal scored against them - an own goal... Seems like the goalie AI was pretty good too...
I think you are knocking them for no real reason.
http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~robocup [unsw.edu.au] is the UNSW site of the challenge.
Re:The current problem with robocup (Score:1)
I was there!! (Score:3)
moderate this up!! (Score:1)
Re:I was there!! (Score:1)
if i was competing there, i would give each of my dogbots a chainsaw.
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
Good to know the jackasses keep their financial information nearby, so that they can include more data in their clueless posts.
Re:The current problem with robocup (Score:3)
Who cares if you find the optimal strategy for playing soccer within certain constraints? Programming a computer to play a perfect game of tic-tac-toe doesn't get you any closer to building something that's actually intelligent.
Robots aren't near human level computing power, so anything that looks like "strategy" is "pre-computed formula". On the other hand, Rodney Brooks' robots are in the same league as bugs, and they do bug like things in ways that may be close to how bugs do them.
So let the state of the art advance based on hardware for a while. Eventually, though, everyone will be running very similar hardware, and the better software will win out. Everyone is probably already running a good overall strategy -- it's the local control abilities that no one knows how to do well.
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
...phil
Why is "organic" bad? (Score:1)
What is wrong with "organic"? The structures you can make with organic molecules seem to support a much greater complexty than any anorganic molecules. Of course IANAChemist, so I could be wrong.
Why not imagine organic machines? (Okay, I know some people already did) With the organic, more complex stuctures, it is perhaps possible to boost computing power way beyond anything imaginable with silicium chips. If we assume that intelligence is just a result of computations made by our brain, then our brain is just an organic-supercomputer. (Well, skip the "super" part for some people ^_^ )
I don't think that organic implies "mortal", so even an eventual artificial organic computer could be able to cross the vast distance between the stars and perpetuate human legacy. Yes I say "legacy" because neither the organic nor the silicium machines will be human, they would just be our evolutionary children.
Re:Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaal (Score:1)
However, to achieve more than 2800 odd bit/s [1], two or more bits are encoded into one tone, the bitrate multiplies accordingly, so you would listnen in base-4, base-8 or base-16.
[1] please fill in the right number, as I do not know it by heart (shame on me).
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Re:The current problem with robocup (Score:1)
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Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:2)
Blockquoth the poster:
Personally, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that you (or anyone) knows "the wisdom and will of our Lord". Life has changed in the past 2000 years and yet very few updates have come down from Heaven as to how to live. Even if you believe that the New Testament is the revealed Word, you should be able to see that God always chose to speak in the metaphors and memes comprehensible at the time. If He'd mentioned "transferring consciousness to a computer", it would've sounded like gibberish. Actually, it'd sound a lot like assumption into Heaven... Hmmm.If you accept evolution, then humans using their brains (even for -- gasp! -- technology) is simply part of natural selection. If you're an evolutionary deist, then humans using their brains is a culmination of God's design. If you're a creationist, then it's silly to oppose technological innovation: You're alleging that God put a massive, wonderful, functioning brain in (nearly) every human, for the sole purpose of us ignoring it?? That's horribly inelegant.
I am amused and saddened by how many people believe that God is limited by their imaginations.
Domination (Score:1)
Re:why ? (Score:1)
-Elendale (of course, non-american football is where its at!)
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
So growing an internal organ and placing it into a body successfully is not giving life to a creation? Granted, a liver might not have a 'soul' (assuming a body does) but where do you draw the line? What if in 5 years we can grow any major organ and replace them in a human successfully? What if we can grow entire bodies, transplant a brain and have that person function successfully after the operation?
What if we grow a body in a test tube environment that grows up and leads a normal life? In your doctrine this person will never be in Heaven because that person was not created by God, he/she does not have a Soul. Where do you draw the line?
God will never allow us to endow machines with intelligenc
Never? I'd be careful when using the word never. That was the point I was making in the original post. Fundamentalists have been crying Never for a long time, and they have been silenced in the past. They would like us to forget that they ever preached such nonsense, but not everybody forgets. How can you say never? We are quickly heading down a path where the distinction between machine and biological material are VERY blurry.
There are a lot of what ifs out there, and that isn't changing very fast, the what ifs are only getting more and more vast. The other battlecry I hear is this:
Yes, okay we COULD technically invent those things and do those actions, but God will come back first and end this astrocity from ever happening.
Right. That claim failed the test of time as well.
I advise you to read The Ten Commandments Site to learn the truth, and begin your path on the road to enlightenment and rightousness.
I've been down that path once before and it left a stale taste in my mouth.
Re:It's the same with other sports (Score:1)
Re:ask Joe Theisman's leg whether it's a girls spo (Score:1)
No Hardware Mods.. (Score:1)
"These robots have been provided by Sony especially for this event. The internal workings of each robot, however, are determined by the RoboCup programmers who prepare them. Programmers cannot modify the robots' physical hardware; "
So.. acording to Sony, the "internal workings" means the... programing? The contestants are not alowed to change the iner mechanical workings of the robots or the external apearence. Free add for Sony anyone? BattleBots VS Little Sony Doggie?
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
Have a nice day.
[Moderators, this post is not Flamebait, or Troll, it is Insightful, or possibly Funny... unless your name is Jerry Farwell.
--- 'dex
Re:Misleading Headline (Score:1)
Re:why ? (Score:1)
Re:memetic perpetuation (Score:1)
I'm emailing you the Snow Crash virus under separate cover.
Re:Misleading Headline (Score:1)
Nanotech _IS_ enabling tech for Von Neumann mach! (Score:1)
Currently, genetic enginnering and nanotechnology together form the leading contender for the systems needed to fabricate such complex systems from raw materials.
Remember, a Von Neumann machine is not a simple exploration robot - its a robot that carries aroud with it a refinery, smelting plant, forge, machine shops, semiconductor equipment (crystal growth, deposition, die stepper, tester, ATE) ect. ad nauseum.
While I don't agree with some of your other extrapolations (meat sacks may be around for quite a long time, the nature of consciousness seems more complicated that we suspected just a few decades ago...), nanotech is likely to be the only practical technology to build these machines for the next century or two...
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
After all, the future of the human race may depend on robotic systems. No, I'm not joking, I'm talking about Von Neumann machines, which will one day be our route to colonising the entire Universe without any of the troubles caused by transporting meat sacks throughout the cosmos.
Von Neumann? As in "data and program together but the processor is separate"? At least my brain doesn't work like that...
Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear. Rather than spending all of our time fighting amongst ourselves in petty dominance contests we can acheive our manifest destiny amongt the stars.
...and...
This is why the US needs to push foward with research into this area, rather than more "glamorous" areas like nantechnology. We need to get our machines launched before anyone else in order to get to their destinations first. In the game of survival, first come is definitely first served.
So much for "petty dominance contests"... (or was that irony?). Anyway: Native Americans, Aboriginies and the people of Alderaan all were first, too...
Futurists aren't vital to our future (Score:2)
Hit pause on your Star Trek marathon tape and try to join us in the real world, ok Spock? I like sci-fi too, but extrapolating one idea or two to their irrational end to produce some lame Star Trek-esque fantasy is simply not convincing. memepool [memepool.com] recently posted a similiar rant.
mod this up (Score:2)
What about the hooligans? (Score:5)
Are they robotic too?
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
My point was just that if the poster I replied to had the idea that Slashdot was a non-commercial organization of some kind (he didn't actually say what he was thinking), then he hasn't been paying attention.
BTW, careful who you call a jackass. I might have been that 20-24 year-old dominatrix you're seeking.
Olympics. (Score:1)
Re:Silly American. (Score:1)
battle bots (Score:1)
Rock 'n Roll, Not Pop 'n Soul
Re:why ? (Score:1)
The term soccer came from British schoolboys - association football -> "soc"cer (refers to the player). Similer to how rugby players are called "ruggers", and the came can be called rugger.
So, originally, soccer was a snobbish upper-class term for association football, and football was the term used by the unwashed masses.
Cheers,
Brian
Re:Functionality (Score:3)
Re:Hockey Droids? (Score:2)
I'd be interested to see an Ice Hockey robot too, but I can't see why you should make it skate. My instinct would say rubber tank tracks would be best.
As an aside, I can't see it'd be too difficult to convert a Football robot to Ice Hockey, as the games as they'd be played by the robots are pretty similar.
Anyway. If you want a more interesting challenge, robotic table tennis has been attempted for years, with varying degrees of success. You might be able to manage a simplified form of volleyball.
Vechicle sports - car, bike, boat, plane racing - aren't too hard, TBH. Collision avoidance is a pretty big challenge, though
If we want to go for individual sports, ski-ing in its various forms would be interesting. Slalom racing would require precision of movement, downhill speed of reactions and stability like little else. Cross-country would be an interesting test of flexibility and (potentially) endurance. Jumping would be interesting, but the potential for someone to simply build a hang-glider and rather spoil the whole event is there... You'd probably need to limit it to humnanoid robots. Still, the speed and precision of reaction needed would make it interesting.
"AIBO blown away"? (Score:2)
Re:Free from love and hate? (Score:1)
I don't know if we're "destined" to evolve beyond our mortal organic bodies, but I believe that most of us will see truely alive artificial beings in our time. And I know that any God who'd endow us with minds that allow us to even discuss these things would be embarassed by the bible-thumping, "you're-going-to-hell"-slinging mentality that's somehow gotten posted on a site devoted to freedom of thought.
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
on the so-called "10 Commandments site" mentioned.
Unfortunately, the registry there is very limited
in size and could not retain the comments.
I therefore sent Mr Lee e-mail with the problems
I see with his approach.
What I don't understand is why Mr Lee bothers to
read Slashdot, unless he's trolling for a fight.
--jtg
Functionality (Score:4)
or better yet can they pick up pop stars??
Re:Hockey Droids? (Score:1)
Huh huh huh huh...that would be cool..
Robotics is vital to our future (Score:2)
After all, the future of the human race may depend on robotic systems. No, I'm not joking, I'm talking about Von Neumann machines, which will one day be our route to colonising the entire Universe without any of the troubles caused by transporting meat sacks throughout the cosmos.
Indeed, by the time we get to that stage we may be able to avoid the messiness of organic life altogether, and have transplanted our conscioussness into some form of computer technology. Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear. Rather than spending all of our time fighting amongst ourselves in petty dominance contests we can acheive our manifest destiny amongt the stars.
This is why the US needs to push foward with research into this area, rather than more "glamorous" areas like nantechnology. We need to get our machines launched before anyone else in order to get to their destinations first. In the game of survival, first come is definitely first served.
Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaal (Score:5)
Re:"AIBO blown away"? (Score:1)
"consistently uses AIBO hardware."
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
Now that is an intresting problem. I must agree to their terms of use before browsing their site, but how can I read *them* without accessing the site?
I'll just claim that I entered that URL first in case there was a legal notice I was supposed to read before browsing the rest of the site. Hm,... wonder if I may browse their 404 page?
Guess I'll better never set foot in Japan.
Re:Functionality (Score:1)
Re:World Cup ? (Score:1)
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ask Joe Theisman's leg whether it's a girls sport (Score:1)
By the way, it's the National Football League, not the International. Hence, only American teams.
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:2)
"...One giant leap for mankind."
God wasn't going to allow us to send anything out of the solar system either, on the same grounds. Our dirty sinful machines, our dirty sinful bodies would never be able to escape this prison we are in, this solar system. Hey, according to the Bible even Satan can't leave earth.
How far away is Voyager now?
God will never let us understand the things that make us who we are. We will never master genetics, we will never be able to perform molecular reconstruction because that would be creation and only God can create. It would be evil and perverse for a sinner race like ours to create things.
Witness the completion of the Human Genome Project, and advanced experiments in the creation of objects on the molecular level. We are only decades(if that) from being able to stick a program into a machine and walk away with a new arm(heart/foot/eye/heck BODY), recently fabricated from 'thin air' before our eyes.
God will never allow us to endow machines with intelligence, nor will he ever allow us to transfer our consciousness to anything other than the organic bodies we possess.
Hmmm, it hasn't happened yet, but let's just put it this way, your fundamentalist sermons don't have a good track record SO FAR.
Re:why ? (Score:2)
"Alteration of assoc., abbreviation of association football." So, I guess you were an "assoc-er", which evolved. 1889 or some such date as an origin.
Having played all three sports (rugby, soccer/football, and American Football [in college]), I think the old-style American football was more fun. Of course, I was a lineman, and we do bloody nothing. It's like being a prop. If there's not a scrum, there's nothing going on.
Free from love and hate? (Score:1)
Manifest destiny my arse. It can take a flying leap - if things like love are petty, what is really worth the effort?
--Bistromath
dumb title (Score:1)
Re:The USA *is* the best of humanity (Score:1)
Freedoms such as having 25% of the worlds prisoners, but only 5% of the world population. Putting people in prison for concentual crimes (sex, drugs) while letting murders, rapists, and other violent offenders out.
Benefits such as having one of the highest murder rates. A low literacy rate. Children without medical care. High teen pregnancy rate.
Ah yes, I can see why you would say we are the best of humanity.
Re:why ? (Score:1)
Um... Japan?
Sure, it's a kind of token game, but Dallas plays there every year now.
Re:No Hardware Mods.. (Score:1)
In fact, the teams weren't even allowed to rip out the whole OS and replace it by something better - Sony doesn't provide the necessary details to directly address the hardware and forbids reverse engineering. Interestingly, it seems that RoboCup teams that rip out as much of Sony's software as possible get better results. According to a member of the team from Berlin this was a consistent pattern this year and last year.
Chilli
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
I am amused and saddened by how many people believe that God is limited by their imaginations.
Excellent quote. Is it yours?
literally: (Score:1)
Re:It's the same with other sports (Score:1)
urgh... (Score:1)
need coffee..or sleep
Mod this up. This AC is correct. (Score:1)
Animals do indeed feel emotion. And, IMO, they should not be treated as "less" than human, as the vast majority of them are today. Because they are NOT less than human. They are merely different, their intelligence and wisdom is different from ours, but it is not non-existant.
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
AIBO hackable ? (Score:1)
If only it didn't cost 2.5K and it wasn't impossible to find (unless you wander around the streets of Akihabara).
P.S. Italy came in 2nd in the F-2000 league losing to Germany at the penalty kicks sounds almost like a human soccer world cup 8)
No machine survives a black hole. (Score:1)
the durability and precision of robotic machines will always be greater
One of the more interesting properties of organic materials is that they are far more resilient in the long term. If you bend a metal bar far enough, the bend is permamanant. Increase the stiffness of the bar, and the same load can shatter the metal beam. Organic systems are similar, except they hold more stress, without permanant deformation, at signifigantly less weight. If they do break, they can heal themselves (with the assistance of nearby and integrated systems.)
Also noteworthy is that a properly functioning organic joint operate at far lower wear levels than even the best mechanical ones. Nearly all aspects of moving systems are more efficient in organic systems. Show me ANY pump that can operate at the reliability levels of the human heart! At its size/weight/power/load/output statistics, I dare you to try and show me a pump with 1/1000 of its MTBF rating. 1/100000 even?
I would argue that inorganic augmentation allows organic systems to incorportate the best of both worlds, and the likely end result is a more efficient hybrid.
Re:Functionality (Score:1)
Re:It's the same with other sports (Score:1)
UNSW Robocup homepage (Score:2)
Re:Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:1)
good point.
Hmmm. Sounds like.... (Score:1)
avoid the messiness of organic life altogether
Obviously, you've never been "inside" a female zebra! It's kinda messy, but you won't even worry about that, trust me:-)Finally, we would be free of the things that hold us back - mortality, hatred, love and fear
Ok, fine. Mortality I agree with, hatred I agree with, but love and fear? Those are essential. Also - it would be preferable to replicate biological life inside digital life rather than go with digital life directly. After all, in a pseudo-ecosystem we could still have sex with hot female zebras, but not have to worry about death etc etc. Only hackers.World Cup ? (Score:1)
Les 3 Mousquetaires,Laboratoire de Robotique de Paris, is only second
.
Soon at Sony's (Score:1)
They dream of it so Sony'll make it !
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Oh, oh. You're in trouble Hemos... (Score:4)
Or did you perhaps "access and browse" their site without checking their terms of use? [sony.com]
Oh no! Now Sony will firewall *slashdot* in my computer!
Re:Olympics. (Score:2)
Rich
Re:Soon at Sony's (Score:1)
Re:The USA *is* the best of humanity (Score:1)
Re:It's the same with other sports (Score:1)
Canada is American allright, and so is Panama, Brazil and Surinamme.
US people refere to US as "America". That's what's wrong.
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Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I also know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Now I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
Then, Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
A friend of mine also feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
And Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Re:Hockey Droids? (Score:1)
Re:They merely hamper you (Score:1)
I suppose you think it's "old wise tales," too.
-Pete
How to tell stories... [amazon.com]
-Pete
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
Now I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
Hmmm... I read Exodus 35:2 to say, "Each week, work for six days only. The seventh day is a day of total rest, a holy day that belongs to the LORD. Anyone who works on that day will die."
It's rather meaningless. We're all going to die someday.
I wonder about Exodus 35:3 and "Do not even light fires in your homes on that day."
I assume that this means no cooking and no light. Are you prohibited from using electric stoves/ovens and electric light or is the prohibition strictly against the use of flame?
Re:The USA *is* the best of humanity (Score:1)
Re:Functionality (Score:2)
Snoop Dog anyone?
Sorry, it just HAD to be said. (Even though I forgot it in the first post).
Re:Robotics is vital to our future (Score:1)
Re:Soon at Sony's (Score:1)
The current problem with robocup (Score:3)
Most universities however are more interested in letting real robot's do higher level strategy and therefor use standard robots. You can write much more interesting reasearch papers about strategy and communications between autonomous robots, than you can about a set of turning wheels. Therefor the iranian team was last years world champion and this years european champion (it was an open championship