Indian State Encourages Microsoft Removal 298
cultrhetor writes "The New York Times reports that the communist government in the Indian state of Kerala is trying to remove Microsoft from its public institutions, as part of a campaign against monopolistic corporations. From the article: 'schools and public offices across the state are being encouraged to install free software systems instead of purchasing Microsoft's Windows programs. "It is well-known that Microsoft wants to have a monopoly in the field of computer technology. Naturally, being a democratic and progressive government, we want to encourage the spread of free software," M. A. Baby, the state's education minister, said by telephone.' The government is not banning Microsoft, but it is actively encouraging all 12,500 public schools in the state to install Linux."
Cautiously optimistic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
The ban on Coca-Cola and Pepsi came after an NGO reported dangerously high levels of pesticide [bbc.co.uk] in them, although it is possible that there were other [rediff.com] reasons [countercurrents.org].
Finally! we can really complain about the commies! (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I guess this is gonig to be fun watching people's head spin.. open source good, microsoft bad, but hang on, is communist open source good or bad? Actually Kerala is governed through a parliamentary system of representative democracy [wikipedia.org], they chose their current political leaders, no totalitarian dictators here. They just prefer communist representatives... Sounds like it's not all a bed of roses but it's in pretty good shape for an Indian state by the accounts I've come across (and a damn nice place to visit as a tourist according to several of my friends).
Re:Boo (Score:3, Insightful)
It's so much better when a nation has the right to be sick and obese.
Rights are important. But when you get a heart attack at 35, priorities quickly change.
Re:Wait... (Score:5, Insightful)
communist, baaaaad (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Boo (Score:4, Insightful)
And you've missed the point. It isn't just that they are elected, it is also that the overall framework is not communist, so even a government dominated by communists cannot impose a truly communist state. Private property and private enterprise exist in Kerala, which they would not in a communist system, and the state government does not control the economy the way it would in a communist system.
Even if the reason for the ban on Coke and Pepsi is hostility to large, multinational corporations, that doesn't make Kerala communist. There are lots of Greens, for example, who are certainly not communist, who are hostile to such corporations. There are also other possible reasons for the ban. One is that if they think that the levels of toxic chemicals in Coke and Pepsi products are too high, it makes sense to ban sales entirely, not just in schools. Even if adults aren't at risk (and they may think they are), kids drink soft drinks outside of school.
Re:Boo (Score:3, Insightful)
Why call it communism when it is clearly social-democracy?
Re:Boo (Score:3, Insightful)
So what? Who cares? If they're real communists then that's probably good (but hopelessly idealistic, like real capitalists). If they're just Stalinists then that's bad. But banning a couple of products because of a health scare doesn't seem particularly tyrannical to me.
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, because they contain harmful and dangerous pesticides?
Now explain why the democratic, free-market US not only bans marijuana (which has never been shown to be harmful or addictive), but even bans forms of hemp that do not contain [nytimes.com] the hallucinogenic substance (THC) in marijuana.
Re:Finally! we can really complain about the commi (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
It makes absoloutely no sense for the indian government to use software sold by a foreign corporation when a local company can provide and support an open source based solution. Any profit that local company makes, will ultimately be taxed by the government, as will their staff, so a chunk of the money the government spends comes right back to them. Plus it helps keep jobs locally, and any improvements they make can also be used by other government departments without additional cost to them.
It makes absoloutely no sense for the indian government to keep giving huge amounts of money to a foreign corporation, when there's a local alternative. Infact, not using the local alternative is pretty irresponsible and harmfull to the local economy.
Important to note.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Pretty blatant attempt at negative association. It's so fucking obvious, it's embarrasing.
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
Interpretation, spin!
Here is a more balanced and fact-based treatment : http://www.financialexpress.com/latest_full_story
The New York times seems to be trying to stir up "Fear, Anxiety and doubt". The government is not "Communist" but democratic socialist, like the UK's ruling party and much of the EU, Latin America and many other places.
In Kerala, they are replacing one western Operating System (illegal copies of Windows), with another western operating system (legal licences of Linux). After Microsoft went there and demanded lots of money for no source code and no local language support from their dialect, and Richard Stallman went there and offered full source code and a free system that had already been translated into their local dialect.
Why this should panic investors? Cola is after all very bad for you, why should Indians have to become clones of us fat, sugar-high westerners?
Kerala has done very well without help from the western elites and will carry on doing so. FUD or no FUD.
Re:Boo (Score:3, Insightful)
On the contrary, there have been a good many studies that have shown just that; the problem is that there have also been a lot of studies that have shown the opposite. About the best you can say is that the jury is still out on the matter.
Hyperbole (Score:3, Insightful)
the communist government in the Indian state of... (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, this decision has nothing to do with the specific government being communist or not, and I welcome this decision, although I have nothing to do with India whatsoever. But, as wonderful western objective journalism rules expect, how nice it is to insert that word in there so as to inflate a latent (or not) hostility right in the beginning towards whatever might come in the following text. Instead of just saying Kerala's state government decided to encourage this and that. These days, I've just become really sensitive to slight (or not so slight) political overtones.
Re:But wich distro (Score:4, Insightful)
I sure hope they try them all and uses what fits them the best.
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps, but in that case why the fuck is non-thc-rich HEMP illegal? It doesn't have any health issues.
Re:Boo (Score:3, Insightful)
That's how we differ. I'd rather not be killed at all.
Re:Cautiously optimistic (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Boo (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, they didn't ban Microsoft, and if they did they'd only be making a prudent decision anyway. Microsoft has held back computing in the West for 20 years; why let it hold India back too? Plus, of course, Microsoft embody the anti-capitalist bogyman far better than some communist local government. Capitalism only works when government intervenes to prevent monopolies growing to the point where they can control the market. Once that point is reached capitalism breaks down, which is what all western companies want. The perfect situation for a western company is to have no competition and customers who have to pay whatever you tell them to. Enron in California is the ultimate example of the perfect western company from the point of view of the owners.
Microsoft would dearly like to be in the same situation as Enron was before it got busted; does your desire to sell your country to the West really go so far as to want that?
I think you have a very distorted view of exactly how business in the West works and, more importantly, how western businesses view your country. You are a market to be milked, nothing more. The companies involved will happily collude to screw you and your countrymen to the wall. If it means a few Bhopals or the total loss of control of the power generation system, or the sale of all your fresh water to factories resulting in famine in rual areas, then they care not a jot.
I know this because I live in the west and they have done these things here. Now most of them are illegal, so they are off to suck you dry before you get wise. A few million dollars in bribes to officials can save them billions off their bottom line, so they will do it. Once they own the government, you'll be praying for communists or anyone else to do something about it. Come to Britain and see what it's like to have a government totally controlled by big business. Fraud and corruption are rife while education, health, housing, and employment are collapsing around us and the electorate can do nothing about it because of the gerrymandering that keeps a party with a third of the vote in absolute power with a vast majority in parliament.
Or go to America, where the entire cabinet is made up of unelected oil company directors. Literally tens of thousands of people have died, and more die every day, because these represetatives of western business that you are so worried about upsetting are pursuing their business agendas using tanks and missiles. They are also supporting Pakistan's development of WMD which may one day be used on you. They are doing these things not because they hate you but because it makes them money. Lots of money. Nothing else matters.
As for you, to them you are just cheap labour. By undermining the employment market in their home countries, western businesses can use you to increase the gap in wages between the people who produce their products and the massive salaries they award themselves. As long as you depend on the West to build your economy instead of using your own resources you will never be anything more than a well-dressed slave.
India has natural resources, plenty of people, and a tradition of education and technical skill that a country like America can only dream of. What the hell do you need us for? Get yourself some self-respect and make your own software, your own computers, your own soft drinks; your own future.
Re:Boo (Score:4, Insightful)
Did I mention that he also licks G.W.Bush's arse?
The only reason the UK hasn't been booted out of the EU a long time ago is the hope that we might join the Euro. It would then be economically viable for the Euro, rather than the US dollar, to be used as the principal currency for trade in crude oil. However, despite the clear and obvious benefits to the majority of the population {lower prices, no more getting fleeced by bureaux de change when travelling abroad} the Murdoch-owned media {under the influence of the carpetbaggers who stand to lose most from the adoption of the Euro} has managed to hoodwink people into believing that using the same coin as our continental cousins would somehow compromise Britain's "sovereignty" despite not being able to provide an adequate definition of what sovereignty actually means.
Re:Cautiously optimistic (Score:1, Insightful)
Stabbing someone, either with "your own knife" or someone elses is a harmful act. Choosing not to give out source code is neutral at worst. Nobody is forcing you to use their "unfree" software, and they are under no obligation to give you anything. You are the one curtailing freedom and insisting on control, not the software developer.
You argument basically boils down to "I want everything for free. Anyone who doesn't give me what I want is evil!" - the argument of a five year old.
People like you make it harder for free software to be taken seriously, as you give the impression that the open source/free software crowd are just a bunch of freeloaders.
Re:Cautiously optimistic (Score:3, Insightful)
The GPL conserves the freedom of the user of software at the (apparant and short-term) expense of the freedom of the software's author.
The copyleft idea is therefore, in principle, to cull Stalin's freedom in favour of increasing the freedom of Soviet citizens
Re:Boo (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, perhaps I've grown a bit out of touch; and I understand that Kerala is relatively well off compared to much of India with only 25% of the populace below the poverty level, relative to what is considered the poverty level in India, but I was unware that an excess of calories in the diet had suddenly become a systemic problem in India.
KFG
Re:Cautiously optimistic (Score:3, Insightful)
On the virtues of being judgemental (Score:3, Insightful)
A hundred years ago you could have been excused for speaking something so horrific on the grounds that the jury was still out. History has now rendered its verdict. All of the fad philosophies of the late 19th and early 20th century were fatally flawed. It wasn't just that there were implemented poorly, the wrong people were in charge, the revolution wasn't hijacked. Communism, Socialism, National Socialism, Fascism, all were similar far more than they differed. All were based on the idea that an annoited 'wise' few were capable to and therefore would make all of the decisions and use the power of the modern nationstate to enforce their edicts at gunpoint. All four resulted in millions of corpses in mass graves each and every time any people anywhere tried to implement them. No, shut the fuck up you idiots in the back row, EVERY TIME.
> It is just another idea that tries to create a perfect world.
And gave us Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Valdimir Lenin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Fidel Castro.... need I continue? NO admirable figures headed up a communist state or similar state. The weakened version, socialism, has left Europe an enfeebled ghost of its former self and is on course to lead to the total loss of Western Civilization. Fascism and National Socialism proved so virulent it required WWII to purge it and even today just speaking their names causes all right thinking people to shudder in memory of the horrors.
> a) tell other people what's good and what's not good (tell as in force them to...)
But isn't that the core idea that underlies all four philosiphical systems you seem to admire? That a small elite, (wise and educated beyond the mere mortals they rule over) will make all decisions, for the people's 'own good.' So why is it good when a cabal of communists decide what is best for the people but so totally wrong when Western corporations try to export market proven products.
Hey, I agree with installing the penguin over spanding scarce export dollars, but lets be clear about these guys motivations, k?
Re:Communism sucks because it's against human natu (Score:4, Insightful)
Communisim is bad because it goes against human nature, and therefore is doomed to failure in the long run.
I strongly disagree. Communism works and has worked for as long as human history can record it. It is not against human nature for multiple people to cooperate for the benefit of all of them.
Therefore, in order to maintain a communist system, one must eventually use force.
This is also untrue. One example of communism is the nuclear family. Several people pool their resources and share a home, food, chores, etc. If one wants to leave, there is no reason they need to be forced to stay.
But that's typical of most, if not all, utopian philsophies. You set out to establish a utopia, an ideal system, a man-made paradise where all is good and evil is vanquished. But next thing you know, you find yourself enforcing that utopia at the point of a gun, or are refusing people to leave the utopia after they've become disenchanted.
You're making a fatal misjudgment. "Utopian philosophies" don't fail. Extremism fails. Every economy in the world is a blend of capitalism, communism, and socialism. Trying to eradicate any of these is an extreme and is what results in horrific failure, historically.
Fortunately, most utopias remain small (cults) so they harm only to the small number of people that were misfortunate enough to join them. Communists, on the other hand, tried to impose their utopia on vast numbers of people, to great harm.
There is nothing harmful about communism and nothing about it that implies it has to impose itself on large numbers of people. Communes have existed for thousands of years and are still chugging along just fine. The problem with communism, is that it becomes less and less effective the larger the communist cell grows. Moreover, since it necessarily concentrates decision making, it is more prone to authoritarian abuse than competitive systems.
The real discussion is the proper balance of communism, capitalism, and socialism within a given society. Communist cells compete in a capitalist economy against one another and everyone gives some to help those in need. In the US right now, we don't have socialized health care or drug treatment. We don't have progressive inheritance taxes. Our communist cells are mostly family units, although we also have some tightly knit communities in the form of communes, monasteries, and co-ops. The cell size is shrinking as more and more families become single parent affairs and as extended families spread out and break up.
If you look at the quality of living around the world, it suggests the US has too little socialism, and probably too small of communist cells for optimal efficiency.
Taking this discussion to the main topic, this article is simply another example of Communist government trying to impose a utopia on the citizens.
Ummm, how do you figure? These are people with communist leanings, but not working within a communist cell at all. They are a capitalist economy as much as the US is. Communism has absolutely no bearing on this decision at all. Also, they're not imposing anything. They suggested, but did not order the socialized education system to move away from a company that is a monopoly and which removes the advantages of capitalism, they wish to enjoy. To summarize, this was a bunch of people with communist leanings, directing the socialized part of their economy, to move towards more capitalism. A real capitalist would be overjoyed to hear it.