A Different Kind of WGA 'Problem'

Ed Bott recently attempted to scout out the problems reported in so many horror stories floating around the net relating to Microsoft's WGA. He did experience problems, however, not the ones that you might expect. He intentionally installed a pirated copy of Windows XP to see how the process worked but was unable to get WGA to recognize his computer as pirated. From the article: "I'm reluctantly running a pirated version of Windows and can't get caught no matter how hard I try. But these same people want us to believe that the WGA software they've developed is nearly foolproof. They claim that all but "a fraction of a percent" of those 60 million people who've been denied access to Microsoft updates and downloads are guilty, guilty, guilty. Right."

Who are the developers

[Twillerror]

When things like this come out; things like key checking for a game install and everything else that is designed to stop piracy I often wonder who wrote it?

Are the best and brightest out there the ones that get stuck with this task? I would think it'd be the interns and that developers everyone hates that get the fun task.

I've used products that had good licensing tools. Keys that you enabled online, and enabled a number of users etc. Everytime it seems like it comes out of some smaller software company with small bright teams. I'm guessing in these cases the senior level codes and maybe even the whole team got involved.

Anyone out there have expierence writing key checkers and other piracy related pieces of functionality?

I'm just worried that I'll buy

[Anonymous Coward]

a copy from a store (you can't return software), MS then says it's pirated, and I'm fucked out of hundreds of bucks.

How do ypu prove that you're not a pirate if MS says you are?

Re:Astounding logic

[twofidyKidd]

The logic is that the MS claim of "foolproof" WGA software has only tagged a fraction of the millions of legitimate users as pirates, while true pirated copies are working as legitimate. The logic would follow that for every pirated copy marked as legal, someone with the legal copy is being marked as a pirate. That supposed "fraction" starts to look something like 1/2 or 3/5 or worse.

It's still a problem.

[Jerk City Troll]

It's far more of a problem for casual, non-technical pirates than the handful of legitimate customers who have been misidentified.

I personally know of at least half a dozen people who have subsequently either a) purchased a legitimate copy of Windows, b) downgraded back to their older, legitimate version or c) bought a Mac, because they lack the technical knowledge to keep up with the WGA arms race.

WGA is certainly going to reduce the level of Windows piracy. Unfortunately for Microsoft, it's going to do so because some people will move away from Windows altogether.

Simple fact is that WGA is utterly transparent and utterly irrelevant to most legitimate users, and even those it isn't, it isn't an issue for very long.

Re:Astounding logic

[insanecarbonbasedlif]

The logic would follow that for every pirated copy marked as legal, someone with the legal copy is being marked as a pirate. That supposed "fraction" starts to look something like 1/2 or 3/5 or worse.

That logic doesn't really follow at all. Anyhow, in tests like these, if you want to diminish false positives, then false negatives usually increase. We should be applauding Microsoft for not being overzealous.

But then again, this is slashdot. MS never gets applause here. At most a murmur of reluctant approval.

but is it activated?

[Eric Coleman]

Or does it even need activation? having to call MS with your personal information to continue running xp after 60 or so days could be the end of his freedom.

Re:I'm just worried that I'll buy

[wanax]

As long as you're willing to rat out the reseller, MS will replace your pirated version with a genuine one.

http://www.betanews.com/article/NonLegit_Windows_U sers_Get_Amnesty/1115239342 [betanews.com]

Re:Astounding logic

[WilliamSChips]

Yes, the submitter is using dubious logic, which doesn't even need to be used because there's already evidence that innocents are being caught.Here's some logic for you:

1. Quite a few people have already been incorrectly accused of piracy by WGA.
2. There are pirates not being caught by WGA. If someone trying to get caught can't, what about those trying not to get caught?
3. Every computer accused of piracy is unable to recieve security updates, making it that much more likely to be hit with malware and therefore become a transmitter of such. The more transmitters, the faster the virus spreads.
4. The majority of pirates will not go out and buy Windows because of WGA. They either don't have the money or don't want to spend it. If anything they will download third-party tools that don't require WGA.
5. There is no benefit to the Windows Genuine Advantage unless their goal is to get people to purchase Windows 2 or 3 times. Come to think of it, that probably is their goal.

Re:Corporate

[Jtoxification]

Oh, please make sure to incorporate that into your speech :-D

A friend of mine is actually afraid to update his new xp 64 software for that reason, and it's a shame too. That's a fast computer and he stays on xp 32 since until he gets all the drivers and fixes for xp 64 (he's manually loaded as many as he can), it's going to be fast as molasses.

Re:However what might be happening

[fishbowl]

"Now however if they found tons of systems outside of the university cropping up, and saw the key on a serials board, they might invalidate it and issue us a new one."

Or, they might just invalidate it and leave it to the folks in your IT organization to explain why they need to buy retail licenses from now on...

Re:Who are the developers

[Anonymous Coward]

For some this is actually a 'fun' task. If you think about it, it is an extreemly hard problem. Some people like to solve hard problems.

I worked with a guy once who was putting tons of restrictions into his code to 'lock it down'. Then we systematicly showed him how each one could be defeated quite easily. Finaly he threw his hands up and goes 'its good enough you would have to be a computer nerd to know how to get around it', 'but dude all you need to know is 1 nerd'.

Re:A solution to your problem

[Chabil Ha']

You see, the BSA doesn't have a financial interest to go after GPL violators because there's a lack of monetary incentive. If any of the GPL software was owned by a multi-billion dollar company shelling out the big bucks to enforce the infringement of their IP, sure the BSA would be right after them.

Re:Who are the developers

[DigitAl56K]

"I've used products that had good licensing tools. Keys that you enabled online, and enabled a number of users etc."

I _hate_ crap like that. I use DriveCrypt for encryption (from securstar.de), and it has the most horrific license system I've ever had the displeasure to use. You have to activate your software and lock it to a computer, then if you want to use it on an alternative computer you have to uninstall it on the first, then enter a "deactivation" code on the website, then finally you can reactivate on the new PC. God forbid you should format one of your computers forgetting to deactive your license first. I even had a problem where a new version of the software wouldn't accept the current activation on the system. I had to uninstall the newer version, re-install the older version, uninstall it and de-activate, then install the new one again and activate it. At that point I was like "JFK!", and no, that's not a reference to Kennedy.

Lets face it: People hate activation, and for a good reason. It doesn't stop piracy. It doesn't really reduce piracy either. All it does it cause perpetual headaches to your legally licensed customers. I work on software products and was partly responsible for redesigning our software registration system, which used to also use online activation. We stripped out the 'activation' element and sales didn't drop at all, however the volume of support traffic that we had to handle due to activation issues (the largest type of support incident by far) dropped to almost nothing. Our customers were much happier people.

Secrets to succesful system: 1) Make a good product, 2) Don't extort your customers, 3) Make the registration process simple.

An example of a good registration system: I recently bought Sonar 5 from Cakewalk. It came with a serial code in the DVD sleave, which you punch into Cakewalks' website in exchange for a registration code that can be used perpetually. That's it. Simple. Cakewalk get their registration info, you get to use the software you just paid hundreds of dollars for as you want. Sure, there is an element of trust involved in that, but hey, you just paid a few hundred bucks. Maybe they ought to trust you after that. By comaprison, other similar software I have licenses for is heinous. Cakewalk earned a lot of respect from me because of this.

Pirates will pirate. People with morals who wish to support your work will pay where they can. Respect your customers.

poor logic

[taybin]

False negatives don't imply false positives.

Re:Who are the developers

[DigitAl56K]

I do not believe 90% will pay when they can pirate. I did not say I believed that. What I said was that providing a simple registration system instead of a complex activation scheme will not reduce your sales.

If only 5% will pay with activation, still around 5% will pay with simple registration. Why? Because the people who pirate will pirate regardless of which system you use.

Re:predictably -mostly the honest are inconvenienc

[Sloppy]

This time I said screw it and went to fry's and bought a new HP dual core media center PC for $750.

That'll teach 'em! Nothing tells a company they can't get away with treating their customers like shit, than to .. um .. keep buying their products as though you were a very happy customer and everything is ok.

Re:Who are the developers

[Anonymous Coward]

And the bit about most companies not tolerating pirated software? Way off the mark in my experience. The companies that I have seen (and I've seen more than most, as a consultant) are generally very lax about licensing enforcement, unless they've gotten bit at some point by the BSA or their ilk. It's a real challenge to get most corporate IT departments to get serious about license tracking (see other comments in this story for examples) because it's neither interesting nor mission critical, and even if management has made it a priority, the junior techs actually installing crap usually don't give a shit.

Then there's those of us that are tired of the licensing treadmill and are switching over to open-source. Mostly so I don't have to track the blessed licenses anymore.

Re:Corporate

[Anonymous Coward]

Good work, fucktard. You've managed to use two words both sounding like "they're" in place of said word, in the same sentence! You sir, need to learn how to use fucking homonyms.

Re:Astounding logic

[PitaBred]

The point is that maybe it shouldn't even exist. Give people a fair product at a fair price, and they'll buy it. Windows is not being sold what the market obviously thinks it's worth.

Re:A solution to your problem

[billcopc]

No, No, NO! The BSA is bad, we DON'T want to give them money. How would you like to have a bunch of armed rent-a-cops and dial-a-lawyers show up at your door for an "audit" ? They're not exactly nice people, in fact I'd venture to say I'd sooner trust a hell's angel-type dude than a BSA "agent", mainly because the biker doesn't lie about pursuing criminal behavior. My honest advice is that if a BSA team shows up at your door, let them in, lead them to your server room, then beat them over the head with an old HP rig until they stop moving. They are trespassers and racketeers, nothing more. They get paid by the top software publishers to keep the sheep aligned. They'll shake down a few strategic offices, make the news and instill fear into everyone else in true Orwellian fashion.

Lawsuits have little to do with law, and everything to do with money. There is little point in suing a GPL violator because the free software projects don't have the financial justification to pursue legal actions, plus it's hard to defend in court when you're giving your product away for free. Software licenses don't mean shit to the average state judge, unless the software license is in defense of a Fortune-500 company.

Re:Sonny Bono owns you

[Fordiman]

Copyright infringement is not a crime. It's a civil infraction you can be sued for, but it's not even a misdemeanor as far as the government is concerned. Copyright infringement is not 'prosecuted' by the government at all, though the person/company the copyright has fallen to after a company folds (someone always buys out the IP) has the right to sue for infringement.

Seriously, man. Where do you get this shit? Been sucking at the teat of the RIAA for too long?

Re:Who are the developers

[Tom]

PS Yes, starforce supposedly is impossible to break.

Except that there are torrents of every single starforce game ever around, and they all come with either cracks or mini-images, and there are at least a dozen competing "anti-starforce" tools.

Starforce is sold as being impossible to break. In the end, it's not any better than anything else.

Re:However what might be happening

[SharpFang]

>To really test WGA you need to do something like get a known
>pirate key or take a non-volume copy of XP and install it on more
>systems than you are allowed to.

Nope. That's what you need to trigger it.
To test it, you take most obscure cases of license violation plus most convoluted cases of legal use.
And then as result the test shows WGA is hopelessly broken.