Using VMWare and Citrix in Tandem? 76
Dysfnctnl85 asks: "As a follow up to the previous discussion 'Alternatives to Citrix Remote Computing?', I've hit another brick wall in my quest to enhance the way my company does remote computing. Right now I've setup Windows Server 2003 Enterprise x64 R2 on two 64-bit machines with 16gb of RAM each. Before I can setup Presentation Server 4, I need to install the Novell client to allow access to our NetWare servers. After doing some research on Google, and hopping forums on the Novell Support boards, I've determined that Novell has no plans to release a 64-bit client for any Microsoft OS until Vista launches." Has anyone managed to get VMWare, Citrix and 64-bit Windows working together?
"Now I'm sure there are other companies out there in a similar situation (as noted on the forums and Google Groups), so I then decided to look into the virtualization market to see if I can still make my dream happen. I've been emailing my Citrix rep who in turn has been speaking with a Citrix engineer who is currently training with VMWare, coincidentally. I'm wondering if anyone has successfully ran a VMWare + Citrix solution in order to fully take advantage of dual 64bit procs, a Windows 64-bit OS, and 16GB of RAM. I was thinking of running 2 Citrix Servers within VMWare to handle maybe 8GB, effectively making 4 public Citrix servers, but I'm not sure what the best solution would be."
D'oh! (Score:2, Interesting)
I am also hoping for some interesting and informative answers, since I am currently investigating using Windows Enterprise x64 to do a Terminal Services environment within MS Virtual Server using the "free" licensing of the virtual OSes. (My $ORK_PLACE steps on your neck for buying a 6-pack of Coke when on the road, penny-pinching *EXPLETIVE DELETED*.)
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Let me start by saying that I'm Dysfnctnl85's coworker. With our company's infrastructure, we *have* to have Novell access for the clients. We are using it primarily for NDPS and our NFS. All of the users' files are stored on Novell shares with a great deal of permissions settings, so there's no way of getting around needing Novell, short of migrating to another network architecture.
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
I've been told by Novell support personnel that in order to make something "like" login scripts work in CIFS, we would also need to upgrade ZenWorks to the latest version. And even then it's not the same as our existing architecture.
In other words, accordi
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Is upgrading to Netware 6.5 totally out of the question?
If not what about upgrading to 6.5, enabling CIFS and using windows to run a script to map drives?
I mean you could just make a .bat file with a bunch of net use statements to map the drives once CIFS is going.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Re:Huh? (Score:1)
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Now I know the integrated MS client for Novell is awful, but does that work at all? Or would it be p
An easy solution is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:An easy solution is... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:An easy solution is... (Score:1)
Re:An easy solution is... (Score:2)
Also you lose access to the extra registers available in 64bit mode...
Finally if he's using AMD cpus, then no 32bit version of windows supports NUMA properly (not sure if the 64bit versions do)
We're doing it! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:We're doing it! (Score:2)
Re:We're doing it! (Score:1)
Re:We're doing it! (Score:1)
VMWare Server works fine on x64 (Score:2)
It runs under WoW64, but seems to work fine. I did it for months without incident.
VMWare supports x64.. but not by providing x64 binaries, just by insuring their code runs under Windows on Windows.
<3 your f*cked up penny pinching configuration.. I used to work for a company like that, and it sucks.
Re:VMWare Server works fine on x64 (Score:3, Interesting)
Elaborating on the Parent further, WMWare Workstation (5.5.1 if anyones keeping track, not tried Server or had the luck to get grubby with ESX) does run as a 32-bit process on x64 Windows, BUT on x64 it allows you to also have x64 Guest OSs, whereas if you run it on a 32 bit host OS, you are (obviously) restricted to to 32-bit only Guest OSs.
The thing I don't get is, how can a 32-bit Applicatio
Re:VMWare Server works fine on x64 (Score:2)
It just emulates the x86-64 instruction set and uses longer 32bit operations to acheive the 64bit functionality.
Is Netware needed? (Score:4, Interesting)
The main question is what are you running behind Citrix. Citrix itself does very little but present a screen to a virtual server. My experience has been that the thing behind Citrix- Netware in your case -is the thing that causes the most problems. Definately consider switching to an A/D setup if you have not already started migrating users from Netware to A/D. With A/D and cool projects like OpenLDAP you can do some pretty neat web based things with Java or PHP. (I have not checked in to other languages as of yet) When your company asks you to implement a fully customizable web portal using IIS (eek!) that accesses all this information, PHP is a good ally to have.
Re:Is Netware needed? (Score:2)
Anyway, sounds like they are pretty set on Netware for now. I think he made that pretty clear.
-matthew
Re:Is Netware needed? (Score:1)
Definately consider switching to an A/D setup if you have not already started migrating users from Netware to A/D.
Your use of the word "Netware" implies you're mixing up Novell Netware (the operating system) with Novell eDirectory (the directory service).
With A/D and cool projects like OpenLDAP you can do some pretty neat web based things with Java or PHP.
...where as this is not possible with Novell eDirectory? I'm doing some pretty neat things with Bash and Novell eDirectory. Haven't tried it wi
Re:Is Netware needed? (Score:3, Insightful)
But your right, the biggest issue with citrix is the applications behind it, many windows programs are simply not designed with security or multiuser usage in mind, there are often ways to execute arbitrary code and very little protection against excessive resource utilisation, create a corrupt word document, load it up on a shared citrix server and watch the calls to support go through the roof.
Take This Into Consideration (Score:4, Informative)
I was working with someone who wanted to do this very same thing recently and the answer from both myself, and Citrix was "no, what the hell is wrong with you."
Re:Take This Into Consideration (Score:2)
Re:Take This Into Consideration (Score:1)
Re:Take This Into Consideration (Score:2)
I'm not a guru on this, but once tried VMWare 3.2 with Citrix on basic 32 bit x86s a few years back. Never did get it working well. Possibly would have better luck now, with all the improvements. Yeah, it wasn't the greatest idea, but that's the sort of stuff you're told to check out when the ruling paradigm is paranoia over security. If prompting for a password increases security, making users go thru 2 or more password prompts is even more secure, right?
AMD and Intel's websites don't make it easy to
Horrible. (Score:3, Informative)
I know this because I'm an avid fan of VMware, and inquired myself... (I'm also currently upgrading to PS4).
If you want to use VMware, get ESX...At least you can retain some performance, and VMotion offers nice flexibity. (At a price, though!)
It's not to say that VMware can't play a role in a Citrix rollout...It's a fine testing platform, and also a solid choice for Installation Manager...but aside from that you're wasting your time.
After speaking with a couple of Citrix consultants, I've used VMware exactly as I've described, and it's worked out fairly well. Virtualization is godsend, but not fit for *every* problem... yet
Re:Horrible. (Score:2)
And i
Re:Horrible. (Score:2)
As far as VM Citrix setups go, I'd love to see how that worked.... but as you said ESX is better. Comparing the ROI on Citrix VS ESX isn't an easy task, though... and while GSX may be better, I still fail to believe that it can provide a responsive Citrix config.
I'm not refusing to believe, though... I'd just like to see it. I've been the primary pusher of VM's (the DR aspect alone is enough to give me a gumby
Re:Horrible. (Score:2)
Re:Horrible. (Score:2)
Remove the 64-bit variable. (Score:2)
So whats the problem again?
Re:Remove the 64-bit variable. (Score:1)
He wants 64-bit because his system is RAM-bound (Score:2)
Win2K3 Std 32-bit supports 4GB RAM, which is fine unless you need more than 4GB.
Win2K3 Enterprise 32-bit supports like 32GB, but you'd have to pony up for the new OS (cost = cost of RAM + cost of Win2K3)
Win2K3 Std 64-bit supports 6GB RAM (cost = cost of RAM)
Moving to 64-bit allows more memory usage without paying a larger M$ tax.
Test it, though. Then, test some more.
We do this where I work (Score:4, Informative)
The benefits of ESX server are pretty great. Secure remote console. Remote power. Ability to clone your VMs (with VirtualCenter, or a free perl script). Ability to migrate a running VM to a different server without shutting it down (google vmotion). The benefits of running virtualized are even greater than maximizing the use of hardware. Manageability is a big plus to going virtual.
Anyway, in your situation, I would recommend installing ESX server on your two big boxes, and using many smaller 4GB 32-bit Citrix servers. Citrix will automatically load balance your apps among your server farm, and ESX will let you load about 4-5 Citrix servers on a single physical box/blade.
Also, get some shared storage (SAN, or even SCSI disk shelf attached to both servers) so you can use Vmotion to migrate VMs around. Imagine how cool it is when you need to do a hardware upgrade or fix a bad component to just migrate the VMs off, do your maintenance, then migrate them back on, without scheduling downtime or the users even noticing. I've even run a countinuous ping to a VM, done a migration from one blade to another, and watched it never miss a single ping. It dumps the contents of memory across a gigabit ethernet connection to the other node, then somehow points it at the shared disk drive on storage, never missing a beat/ping...
As always, YMMV.
Re:We do this where I work (Score:2)
Your solution also works around a common problem - resource utilisation and general user fuckups, each user can only crash one of the smaller virtual boxes instead of the whole system.
Re:We do this where I work (Score:2)
Yes, I have to admit that one or two of the ping responses is a little delayed during the final cutover. It first does the memory copy across gigabit, which takes about 30 seconds, then when the receiving server is ready, there is a final cutover where the VM is killed on one server and started up on the other. That is when I saw latency jump from 0.1 ms up to a couple hundred ms for a couple pings.
Re:We do this where I work (Score:2)
My laptop ----> MS terminal svcs to VM1
My laptop ----> ping VM1
VM1 ----> ping VM2
VM1 ----> ping my laptop
VM1 ----> terminal session to VM2
VM2 ----> ping VM1
When I did the Vmotion, I dropped one packet from my laptop to VM1. The other continuous pings didn't drop a single packet. The terminal session from my laptop to VM1 hitched for a half-second (I had grabbed a window
Re:We do this where I work (Score:2)
Re:We do this where I work (Score:2)
There was 1 switch connecting all the servers together - an HP Procurve (and not a high end one, from what I understand)
Cost considerations, plus more thoughts... (Score:3, Interesting)
Now Microsoft is allowing 4 free instances of their OS when you're running on Windows 2003 R3 Enterprise/Advanced, and using Virtual Server 2005 R2. I know it's a MS hot dog next to VMWare's Prime Rib, but when $$ matters there is compromise to be had.
I've used ESX for Win2003 std Terminal Server - due to the users each mapping 4 printers back each (yea Windows Server with 35 people connected, each bringing 4 printers - didn't work well). There's a check box in ESX for "Citrix Workload".
In a perfect situation, I'd use Citrix to publish applications. I'd create 1-3 VM's on each server for each application published (5 apps = 5-15 VM's per server). Use Citrix to balance the load across those servers (or an external appliance). This would allow for a fairly consistant load across the servers without any additional features. If you're in it for the money, create 2 VM's per task and use the new Vitual Infrastructure 3 DRS feature to allow automatic VMotion if a single server gets overloaded.
Something to think about, but remember using a Vitrual platform has so many advantages to strictly hardware I'd overlook the Citrix people saying "no". Rebuilding a server in 3 short mouse clicks is just too amazing.
Re:new version of VMWare ESX (Score:2)
More Information (Score:1)
Re:More Information (Score:2)
Dealing with the netware client was a pain and CSNW sucks for more than 1 server (users keep having to enter their -fairly long - context and tree) in an NDS tree
Re:More Information (Score:1)
What do you mean? "We need users to connect the same way?" I've never heard users demand anything like "I must map m
Have you considered other options? (Score:2)
There are some other interesting solutions [roudybob.net] out there that use virtualization concepts to provide better end user experiences.
Re:Have you considered other options? (Score:2)
Re:Have you considered other options? (Score:2)
Re:Have you considered other options? (Score:1)
I believe this is using some sort of citrix management, but not sure about the protocol, probably still RDP.
Re:Have you considered other options? (Score:2)
Re:Have you considered other options? (Score:1)
I was watching a sales webinar a few weeks ago, and VDI seemed like a Citrix farm running XP machines. I dont remember if they are using the ICA protocol, if it did that would be awesome.
VMware cleans up Citrix (Score:1)
There's a lot of overlap between VMware and Citrix to be honest. People usually have multiple citrix servers in a farm for 2 reasons. First is to handle large loads. Second is to have a testbed and make it easier for your admins. (I'm assuming you're not virtualizing to do something specialized like training classes or simulate geogr
Re:VMware cleans up Citrix (Score:1)
Re:VMware cleans up Citrix (Score:2)
DR w/out VMWare:
1) Acquire new hardware
2) Build base OS
3) Service packs, reboot
4) Hotfixes, reboot
5) More hotfixes, reboot
6) etc, reboot
7) Use your build documentation to implement all the OS hacks needed to get that last bit of performance out of the box
8) Install Presentation Server
9) Citrix hotfixes, reboot
10) More Citrix hotfixes, reboot
11) Install your app
12) Add any tweaks/updates to the app
13) test and go into pr
Re:VMware cleans up Citrix (Score:1)
You might attack the problem on two fronts. Virtualize your Netware servers on VMware & Virtualize the client access to the finance
We do this now (Score:1)
Layer 7+ would help. (Score:2)
Why is this important? Because Citrix is a network hog. Running multiple Citrix instances via VMWare is going to seriously kill the network card - if not the network - unless you can isolate the traffic of greatest interest. Since these ar
Re:Layer 7+ would help. (Score:1)
Re:Layer 7+ would help. (Score:2, Informative)
And I can attest that at least one commercial product (PacketShaper by Packeteer) can identify individual published applications and apply shaping policies accordingly.
And a network hog? ICA is a pretty dang light p