Why Oracle Isn't Part of the OSDL

darthcamaro writes "Some may wonder why OSDL, the self-proclaimed center of gravity for the Linux Universe and employer of Linus Torvalds, does not include Oracle as a member. Well, in a recent interview Wim Coekaerts, Director of Linux Engineering at Oracle has spelled it out in no uncertain terms. From the article: 'The thing that was really kind of revolting is that OSDL goes out and basically says that they represent the Linux community while there is no direct feedback line back to the community.'"

Linus?

[DuncanE]

Isn't Linus a direct feedback line to the Linux community? Does it get any more direct?

What's all about OSDL

[wysiwia]

Many people, as also I, don't know much of OSDL beside Linus Torvalds is there employed or they care for Carrier Grade Linux (whatever that means). Yet I know OSDL has done a survey about why the Linux desktop isn't a success (http://www.osdl.org/dtl/DTL_Survey_Report_Nov2005 .pdf [osdl.org]).

But now what? Even if the reasons now are more than obvious does the OSDL take the next needed steps? Sure OSDL has created the Portland initiative, unfortunately these people aren't able to do anything about the most pressing matter, the first top inhibitor for the Linux desktop adoption. It might be these people simply don't know how to fix this problem albeit I've shown them one possible solution (http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architect s/2005-December/000349.html [osdl.org]).

OSDL might say that "they represent the Linux community", yet OSDL isn't able to bring Linux to success, to increase its market share to a significant amount. So I would think twice if to participate in such an organization. It's sad when even the self proclaimed speaker of the Linux community can't do better.

To say it once more, without agreeing on a single set of application guidelines, guidelines which enhance the usability and the look&feel, there's no hope. All one can say is "Yet another year without a Linux desktop".

O. Wyss

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[morie]

Depends on how much money you lose if your web site is down becuase of lack af a serious professional solution, as you call it.

I think money is not the main issue here.

still no answer

[nietsch]

This article is pretty frustrating, as it still gives no answers why Oracle is not a member of ODSL and why they should be? As far as I know Oracle makes database and middleware tools, wich is pretty distinct from operating system kernels. Maybe they require some specific kernel modules to get some better performance in some instances, but does that require them to be a memberof ODSL?

So in the end i think the PR department scored another media exposure without any news.

Re:Not only Oracle

[jkrise]

I also wonder, why isn't Apple or Microsoft in?

Hey, not even the great Stallman is part of the OSDL. So, that would mean he's in the same bracket?

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[Splab]

Postgress lack advanced integrity constraints and assertions.

MySQL isn't ACID out of the box.

Ohh, and the big three DB vendors have all put out a free version of their respective DB.

Some may wonder ...

[davFr]

Some may wonder why OSDL, [...] does not include Oracle as a member.

Really? No, I don't wonder. Because I certainly don't care.

Next interesting Slashdot topic : "Some may wonder why Intel never went in the screwdriver business" ...

MOD PARENT FUNNY

[imroy]

Seriously, more like PostgreSQL [postgresql.org] or FireBird [firebirdsql.org].

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[killjoe]

I don't want to get into an argument about the advancedness of postgres integrity or acidness of Mysql. I will simply point out that those are just two of the many open source databases on the market. Some of them such as SAPdb, firebird/interbase and openingress have been in use in some of the largest companies in the world in real world applications.

Yes all threee manufacturers have put out a free version and if you are happy living their restrictions then you should try them. The only thing you have to worry about is if your needs ever exceed their limitations then you will have to pay. Personally I just don't see the point. Either your needs are light and you don't need one of the big three or your needs are heavy and you must fork out the bucks.

The way things are going in three to five years nobody will be able to charge for a database. Look how fast mysql and postgres are gaining features.

Re:Answer: MySQL

[utnapistim]

They're in competition with MySQL.

I don't think they are actually, not at the level that Oracle really cares about.

In the past five years I've worked for two corporations, and the software we developed was targetted at Oracle, MsSQL and Sybase (more or less in that order). The software was for other large corporations in the telecom and finance industries and most enhancements/bugs/so on were coming on the Oracle side.

Business entities at that level pay lots of money for (Oracle) software and I'm not sure they even look at MySql as a viable alternative.

Maybe that's just the ones I've come in contact with, though...

Re:What's all about OSDL

[10Ghz]

"OSDL might say that "they represent the Linux community", yet OSDL isn't able to bring Linux to success"

Linux is already a humungous success, no matter how you look at it

"to increase its market share to a significant amount."

Huh? Soon after Linux started to appear in High-Performance Computing, it quickly dominated the entire field. Linux'es use on server continues to increase and it's the second most popular OS in servers, Linux'es use on embedded devices is increasing, we have major phone-manufacturers releasing phones that run Linux. And yes, Linux'es market-share on the desktops is also increasing. What do you expect? "It's been few years already, and Linux STILL doesn't dominate the desktop-market! OSDL is a failure!". Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to "dominate" a market, where the competitor is DEEPLY entrenched with about 95% market-share?

"To say it once more, without agreeing on a single set of application guidelines, guidelines which enhance the usability and the look&feel, there's no hope."

So, you feel that OSDL should spend it's time thinking about button-order on dialog-boxes and the like? I think that your viewpoint on this matter is very narrow and VERY superficial. And what if they came up with "single set of guidelines"? How do you suggest that they then enforce those guidelines? Answer: the can't.

"All one can say is "Yet another year without a Linux desktop"."

It's on my desktop. Hell, it's on my neighbours desktop as well!

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[Eivind Eklund]

Could you give some more details about what types of integrity constraints that's missing in PostgreSQL?

I've found it able to handle all I've wanted to do, and I'm curious at what the cases that aren't possible to handle are.

Eivind.

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[jani]

The way things are going in three to five years nobody will be able to charge for a database. Look how fast mysql and postgres are gaining features.

Why do you think that?

You still have to pay for Windows 2003 Server, even though you'll get perfectly functional competing operating systems for free.

You still have to pay for your MacOS X upgrade, even though you'll get ...

Similar examples in software abound.

Businesses like paying for their software.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[Fred_A]

The problem with MySQL certainly isn't availability as such, it's more with the availability of functions ant tools. To run most websites it's fine despite what database maniacs say. OTOH to run a country's social security database, it wouldn't be my first choice ;).

Re:Oracle isn't free, and mysql is

[richlv]

were you aiming for 'funny' ? :)
no, really. eulas for all big softare vendors will shake off all the responsibility they can.
has there ever been a case when a software supplier like ms or oracle has been sued for losses to businesses - and had to pay ?

if that would be the case, ms would have shelled out insane amounts of money after each worm/virus outbreak - they were massive.

of course, it is also possible that you didn't add "... but in reality it's only to comfort them morally"

Re:They kinda have a point

[Anonymous Coward]

Oracle's attitude seems to be that since they dedicate some resources (read: money) to linux development, that they "own" a piece of linux, and Linus should do what they say. They really don't get F/OSS, at least at the level of the quoted middle manager. Boo hoo for them.

Exactly like you say: it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for someone to "represent" the "linux community" (read: "incorporate" all the "features that Oracle wants"). Oracle can't hold Linux/Linus hostage, and they're crying like babies.

We're mostly engineers here, right?

[hey!]

If you are running a web site then you should consider that some of the world busiest sites including /. run on mysql. Apparently there is a way to run websites with mysql and still get high availability.

So, we're all engineers here, right? That means that we should understand that a bird's wing is an elegant solution for lofting a sparrow, it's not necessarily the most efficient and reliable design for an airplane.

Or that a Bugatti Veyron may be the fastest production vehicle in the world (top speed 253 mph), but if you have to move 50,000 tons of banannas a hundred miles from port to a distribution center five hundred miles away, you're better off with semi-trailer (maybe 80mph?).

"Busiest sites" is almost meaningless with respect to the database tier.

Re: they like paying and we like being paid

[namekuseijin]

"Businesses like paying for their software."

Why, pay open-source developers to work on specific projects, then.

or donate to large free software projects and Foundations. or just contribute back code...

but no, let's pay compulsory taxes to this large marketing-drone just so we can be reassured that we can blame someone...

Huh?

[sammy baby]

So?

MySQL isn't a member either [osdl.org]. On the other hand, Red Hat and Novell are, despite the fact that they're clearly competitors. So what does MySQL have to do with it?

Someone to sue, only on Slashdot

[alexhmit01]

The only place I have EVER seen a company "want someone to sue" if something goes wrong is on Slashdot. In the real world, most businesses want to avoid lawsuits because only the lawyers win. The only times companies want legal battles is to establish barriers to entry... Where the cost of creating the barrier is less than the monopoly rents extracting, generate the lawsuit. Lawsuits are done to keep competition out, not as a reasonable way of recovering costs from a vendor.

Accountability is NOT the same as lawsuits. Microsoft is accountable for to me, because if I don't like their software, I don't buy it. OpenBSD is not accountable to me because they believe they are giving me something for free and therefore don't care about money coming in. Buying things (like RHEL, or OpenBSD CDs, etc.) creates some accountability, because they lose money if they don't keep customers happy.

Creating a financial incentive to make customers happy creates accountability. In Linux land, certain features get implemented because someone scratches an itch, or because a business needs a feature and pays someone to implement it. Those are advantages of the "open source model," but a drawback from accountability. I am a customer, I want to know that the aggregate of their customer base matters as well. The millions of $400-$500/year customers need to have their interests respected, and an environment where you have to be big enough to pay a programmer to implement the feature leaves us all out.

It's all about accountability, and a company that looks out for its customers. It's not about "someone to sue" if things go wrong.

Alex

Re:Oracle's OSDL membership

[drinkypoo]

But "isn't" isn't really a word in its own right, it's a contraction of "is not"

Contractions are words. What else would they be? They're not trains or beach balls, you know. And by the way, the vast majority of words are made up of other words, sometimes in some other language - like latin or greek, especially in the case of english.