ITMS Faces Complaint From Norwegian Ombudsman 270
Whiney Mac Fanboy writes "Following the French Bill that threatened Apple's iTunes service in France, the iTunes music store is facing more uncertainty in Scandinavia. According to a report in Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten, Norway's Consumer Ombudsman has filed a complaint with Apple's music download sales service iTunes, arguing that the transaction terms violate Norwegian law. The Register is also reporting this story:, saying a contract cannot be regulated by English law, rather than Norwegian law, so iTunes must accept responsibility for damage its software may do, and said it is unreasonable to alter terms and conditions after a song has been sold. Consumer Council told the Reg: 'The Consumer Council has asked Apple to respond as to whether iTunes should work on other platforms - they have until 21 June to respond. After that the Ombudsman is likely to set another deadline and then start fining the company.' The BPI (Britain's RIAA equivalent) has also called upon Apple to license Fairplay."
Symptom of a wider problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Notions of fair use / legal exchange of copyrighted materials vary all over the world. Apple's DRM ignores all these difference (limitting legal use of content in some countries) and relies on the whip of the US-only DMCA for enforcement.
Its pretty obvious that this isn't really an Apple/Norway problem, but a DRM/Worldwide problem - Apple is just the most successful DRM pusher (the first try is free!) at the moment.
PS. FP on my own story submission?
Don't like Apples DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple is an "opt in" monopoly, they force not one person to start using iTunes and their DRM. I use them because I don't really feel like searching the net for MP3's, it is all in one place. I would assume 99% of other apple iTune users do the same. Don't like Apples DRM, fine. Vote with your pocket book and don't shop there. This forcing everyone to do something because you don't like it is getting out of hand.
So here is what I don't get... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
But GM don't actively try to prevent you from putting it into a Civic if you want to.
I would thinkA pple need to be a bit careful thoyugh because with the possible imminent demine of their nearets competitor (allofmp3) how far are they from being a monopoly on the sales of online music? And if they do get decalred a monopoly, would they then be forced to open up their format?
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
If a company wants to do business in a country, it must follow the laws of said country or not do business there, that is the simple issue. Saying "but it's legal where we come from" is not a defence. To put it this way, would you want to allow (say) Chinese cars to be sold in the US without the safety features US law requires, simply because they aren't required in their country of origin?
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:4, Insightful)
hsmith meet kettle, he says your black. (Score:3, Insightful)
The european countries have different rules about consumer protection. They actually think that companies that become to influential should be put under controls to ensure that the consumer doesn't come under the control of a companies whims.
Silly stuff like making sure the countries laws apply and not whatever EULA a company lawyer dreams up next. Making sure that not one company can achieve a de-facto monopoly making it impossible for new companies to innovate.
You seem to favor companies over people because Apples DRM is forcing itself on these countries because Apple does not like their laws.
Europe is an "opt in" monopoly, they force not one company to start trading in the EU or use the EURO. Sound familiar?
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Although I agree with you, I think you're missing the point. This isn't about a group of consumers saying they want iTunes songs to work on player x. Nor is it about company y, which makes player x, saying Apple should license FairPlay because they want protected AAC to work on their players. This is about Norway saying that to operate in Norway, you have to follow Norwegian law. And that means having licenses that are regulated by Norwegian law, including the inability to disclaim damage liabilities.
The issue of whether Norwegian law requires the songs to be playable on other devices still hasn't been decided. If the ruling goes against Apple, then Apple will have to license FairPlay in order to continue operating iTMS in Norway. The only thing they would be forced to do would be to comply with the law if they choose to operate in Norway. Hardly unreasonable, especially given that every online music retailer would be subject to those same laws.
Don't like Norways laws? (Score:3, Insightful)
Norway is an "opt in" legal system, they force not one person to enter the country & operate under their laws. I would assume 99% of other companies that operate from Norway do the same. Don't like Norway's legal system, fine. Vote with your pocket book and don't set up shop there. This forcing everyone to do something because you like it is getting out of hand.
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Foriegn Laws For US Companies? (Score:3, Insightful)
13.GOVERNING LAW. Any action related to this
Agreement will be governed by California law and
controlling U.S. federal law. No choice of law
rules of any jurisdiction will apply.
Re:The "Consumer Council" is anti-consumer (Score:3, Insightful)
I suggest you check out which laws are being referred to before criticising them so sweepingly. Right now you are, among aother things, arguing that it is essential for a well-functioning market to allow the seller to unilaterally change the contract (e.g. revocinga all your songs) for any or no reason and at any time after the deal is done, signed and paid. And it's making you look really dumb and/or trollish.
Re:hsmith meet kettle, he says your black. (Score:2, Insightful)
You are funny. Europe is very much not socialistic. Just because americans like to label everything left of "kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" as "socialist" doesn't make it so.
Europe still believes in a balance between human rights and corporate rights. The balance swings a little here and there depending on government, mood and whatever lobbyist group is offering the best entertainment program this year, but it is far from socialism. On the contrary, for a couple years now it's been more right-wing than left (some of the "leftist" parties today run on programs that aren't too far from the right-wing programs of a decade past).
Europe will end up keeping Apple's iTunes out entirely,
May I invite you to a reality check?
USA [wikipedia.org]: Population ca. 298 mio.
EU [wikipedia.org]: Population ca. 458 mio.
We're a considerably larger market than you are. Neither Apple nor Microsoft nor any of the other big corporations will withdraw from the european market, no matter what and no matter how often you dudes repeat that ridiculous idea.
Re:Foriegn Laws For US Companies? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do they? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing is stopping you from making it possible to run MS games on say Linux or Macs. In fact several projects are doing just that, legally.
Yes this is stretching things but that is because this is a very difficult subject. Laws are ancient and mostly written down before the idea of media containers. With this I mean things like a VHS cassete wich contains media/content wich is married to a specific device.
Think about it for a second. Two hundred years ago you didn't have this problem (I think). Most items you buy and trade do not depend on another device. If you buy wood it will work work with any brand of saw. Nothing says you can only wash your clothes in a Miele washing machine. A book can be read with any pair of glasses.
Since the legal system moves incredibly slowly and has to be changed by people with no real skills like politicians who are controlled by that dumbest of all critters, the voter we still haven't learned to deal with how to regulate media formats.
That leaves the consumers who choose wrongly out in the cold. People often bring up betamax vs VHS in this context. But what about the poor shmucks who choose V2000 eh? For that matter what about those who bought into laserdisc?
V2000 was a really crap choice. If you made the mistake of choosing betamax you at least could still get new players for your old content as Sony kept supporting its standard. Your V2000 tapes were useless once the standard disappeared and the players stopped being made instantly. This is bad for the consumer and the task of an Ombudsman is to protect the consumer.
There is however a problem. With physical media containers like tape cassetes or laserdiscs there is no easy way to set a standard. You can't make VHS accept a laserdisc or vice versa so the consumer just had to pray he choose the right standard.
This ain't just bad for consumers it is also bad for business. Remember the CD? I rememeber a lot of stories about slow mass adoption because people weren't sure this would the future format.
But again there was no way around it. LP couldn't be upgraded so no in between option was possible to make adoption less painfull.
This is not ideal. Compare for instance with the difference in how new book technologies make their way into the market. We have had far more print improvements because the moment a new tech is invented in printing it can be put into place as long as the printer is willing to buy a new press. He then doesn't need to hope people will upgrade their eyes to his new format. Silly? Well not as silly as the movie industry.
They try to fit every new tech onto the old format by inserting it in the weirdest places on the film to make sure old theathers without the latest projector can still use the latest film. Because banking on everyone adopting your new unique format is risque.
So now back to apple. With purely digital containers it is actually silly we still have needs for certain players. We no longer have the physical restrictions so why can't we just play aac on any player out there?
The old format wars were a necessity because of the physical differences but digital formats can play anywhere. Who thinks it is silly you need to Quicktime player for .mov files, the DivX player for .divx files and Windows Media Center for .avi and Realplayer for .rm files?
If you are the least bit computer literate you will probably have setup your machine to play all these different media containers through one player. Yes because it is digital you can player your "laserdisc" on a "lp player". Amazing eh?
So now that this is possible perhaps it is also possible for an Ombudsman to ensure consumers no longer loose out in the format wars? Could we introduce laws th
Re:The "Consumer Council" is anti-consumer (Score:3, Insightful)
How does that make me look trollish? This has everything to do with contracts instead of regulations and mandates by government. Contracts let EVERY transaction be different (I purposely strike out terms on many contracts that I sign and have done so recently with my cell phone provider and my roofer). Laws force every transaction to be the same.
Re:Foriegn Laws For US Companies? (Score:3, Insightful)
Norway has very strict consumer protection laws, and not only can companies not pick whatever jurisdiction they want without a good reason, but a whole lot of things foreign companies like to put in their licenses are null and void in Norway no matter whether or not the customer has signed a contract in blood and sworn on their mothers life that they'd accept it - many rights simply can't be signed away without proper consideration, because companies are considered to have a strength advantage in terms of pushing their terms through at the expense of consumers.
Re:Don't like Apples DRM (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem, in Europe, has nothing to do with licensing MP3s.
It has everything to do with licensing FairPlay.
Eurpean laws are setup to protect competition.
By not licensing FairPlay, Apple is running afoul of those laws.
Blaming the RIAA or their Euro counterpart is completely irrelevant.
Re:The "Consumer Council" is anti-consumer (Score:4, Insightful)
I have _not_ made 3 purchases in the past week based on bad contracts. One was with a roofer (my other roofer decided to accept my terms), one was with a mechanic (I struck out the part about going over the quote and he didn't accept it) and one was with a lawyer. We couldn't come to terms, so we didn't do business. That's the free market.
If people are _dumb_ and can't read a contract, then why should the law be their daddies?
Re:So here is what I don't get... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sony is not selling games that only play on the Playstation. Sony is selling a development kit for the Playstation hardware. If I wanted to develop my own game for the Playstation then I could just buy the SDK and have at it. This is very much unlike Apple.
I cannot just buy a FairPlay SDK.
Just because I know Slashdot loves automotive analogies. Imagine that when Japanese cars began first appearing that GM (the largest car company at that time) put in a gadget that only GM-approved gas (music files) would run in GM-approved cars (iPods). Now they could licence this gadget to Ford and Chrysler (like Motorola's ROKR/SLVR) to give them some cover. Sure the Japanese companies could create a device that allows US-gas to run in their cars (convert to MP3), but it is an extra step and extra cost they and their consumers must bear. This will greatly limit their market penetration not based upon worth or value - but more based upon abuse of their near monopoly (Microsoft).
In fact, the car companies are trying something very much like this by claiming their error codes as copyrightable under the DMCA. Thus if your GM car breaks you will only be able to get it fixed at a GM dealer or company that purchases a GM-licence, assuming they sell any at all (FairPlay).
Re:So here is what I don't get... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The "Consumer Council" is anti-consumer (Score:2, Insightful)