Life or Death for Tivo

CUShane writes "The Washington Post is running an article on the patent case between Tivo and EchoStar regarding Tivo's DVR technology. The article states that Tivo has a better than 70% chance of winning, while a loss would basically doom the company. Is there a possibility that the patent system is working right in this case?" From the article: "TiVo attorney Morgan Chu has been arguing in court that TiVo's inability to turn a profit, despite the popularity of its product, is partially because of EchoStar's infringing on its patent. TiVo co-founder Michael Ramsay testified that he showed EchoStar executives the TiVo product and pursued a licensing deal with them, but that a deal was never struck even though EchoStar began selling its own DVRs that used technology very similar to TiVo's."

We call that "Forum Shopping"

[TubeSteak]

That TiVo sued EchoStar in tiny Marshall, Texas, was no accident, said Bradford Lyerla, intellectual property attorney and partner with Marshall, Gerstein & Borun, a specialty firm in Chicago. Juries there, Lyerla said, find in favor of the plaintiffs in patent trials about 80% of the time.
...
"TiVo has a great jury story," Lyerla said. "If TiVo loses, it could be the end of them. That creates greater sympathy on the part of the jury."

The patent system has nothing to do with this.

This story is entirely about the jury. A jury can decide a case any which way they like, no matter what the law says (see jury nullification [umkc.edu])

+1 to Tivo for manipulating the system.

Re:I Think This Can Be Summed Up In Five Words

[Anonymous Coward]

Just my 2 cents...
"Lifetime subscription" isn't a feature, is a payment/subscription model
"Fast forward 30 seconds" has never been an official feature, and is in NO way "gone"...(try Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select sometime)
Indefinite retention: only a few, rare programs (aside from technical glitches)

So what feature have you lost? I'd like to know.

Re:I Think This Can Be Summed Up In Five Words

[Digital Pizza]

If you think the whole Mac/PC beef is religious in nature, try the Tivo/anything else one.

Ain't that the truth.

Go to an online TiVo forum and ask about feeding your TiVo listings from XMLTV rather than subscribing. Bask in the hostility.

Here's a hint: google for "oztivo", "tivocanada", and "service emulator". Learn perl. Then lament the fact that you'd be sued and lynched if you ever told anyone how you did it.

(This is all hypothetical, of course.)

Re:We call that "Forum Shopping"

[jbf]

+5, Wrong.

FRCP Rule 50 [cornell.edu](a)(1): If during a trial by jury a party has been fully heard on an issue and there is no legally sufficient evidentiary basis for a reasonable jury to find for that party on that issue, the court may determine the issue against that party and may grant a motion for judgment as a matter of law against that party with respect to a claim or defense that cannot under the controlling law be maintained or defeated without a favorable finding on that issue.

In civil trials, the judge can overrule the jury when the lawyer moves for JMOL.

Re:We call that "Forum Shopping"

[mzwaterski]

even if the jury DOES do this, the case just ends up in the appeals court, where you need ANOTHER jury to nullify, and that's not likely.

Appeals courts only have appellate jurisdiction and, thus, only judge the appealed trial. There is no additional finding of fact unless the case is remanded for some reason back to a court with original jurisdiction. Usually there are no juries involved in appeals, instead there is a panel of judges. See this for a good explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_court_o f_appeals [wikipedia.org]

Re:Let them die, for many reasons

[Tony Hoyle]

You forget we have *nothing* with tivo functionality here.

Freeview DVRs? No season passes at all. Manual record only.

Sky+? Limited season passes to certain channels only. No ability to handle conflicts (it simply deletes the season pass if there's a conflict). EPG only 7 days ahead, and if a series doesn't occur that week it again deletes the season pass. Not able to watch programmes unless you're a *current* subscriber. No suggestions, No wishlists. Automatically deletes box office movies.. I could go on.

I may have to get Sky+ since Tivo don't look like producing an HD version this century (or indeed updating their UK version at all). I'm not looking forward to it *at all*.

A particular greedy CEO better call DirecTV today,

[LibertineR]

If he ever hopes to retire a wealthy man. DirecTV offered that bastard big money, and he turned his nose up at it, even though his company HAS NEVER MADE A DIME OF PROFIT, thinking that he could be all things to all people. Never mind that TiVo sucked on early cable systems, and anyone who tried to use that IR thingy wished they hadnt. Those of us who got our TiVos through DirecTV are the only ones who ever experienced what TiVo could really be, because our recording never had to be converted from digital to analog, unlike the rest of you out there with your sucky DVRs. We got the TiVo interface, the best picture, and could have had even more if not for the greedy bastards at TiVo who thought that their product alone would make them rich.

Stupid management always kills cool products. They priced the orignal service way beyond what most people were willing to pay, while DirecTV users got the unit for $99 and $5 a month! What are you NON DirecTV folks paying for the inferior analog-recorded service that you get?

I hope TiVo loses and has to take LESS money from DirecTV the second time around for their insolence, because if they win the case it is bad for the consumer.

The patent in question

[angle_slam]

I hate the way the news media covers cases like this because they never do something simple, like tell you what patent number is at issue. So this is a mere educated guess, but I think the patent in question is 6,233,389 [uspto.gov].

Here's claim 1:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, comprising the steps of:
accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC;
tuning said TV signals to a specific program;
providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation;
providing a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG stream, said MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components;
storing said video and audio components on a storage device;
providing at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section extracts said video and audio components from said storage device;
wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into an MPEG stream;
wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder;
wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals;
wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and
accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.

Re:Tivo is Dead

[zerocool^]

NOT A HIDDEN COST.

Everyone knows about it when they buy a Tivo. AND THE TIVO WILL WORK WITHOUT IT. The Tivo performs perfectly as a time shifting device without the subscription.

What the subscription does is allow you to continue to download a list of things which will play on the channels your tivo already gets. It tells the Tivo that Channel 54 is "Spike TV" and that it will have "STAR TREK TNG" on from 2PM to 3PM.

I don't see what people complain about. The UNIT ITS SELF is what you buy when you buy the unit - if you then want to use it to heat your tea kettle, feel free. The guide downloads are a recurring cost to tivo (they have to have people submit them and keep them up to date, as well as the infrastructure to provide them to people), so they pass it to you. Yeah, they make money. So what? You don't like it, cancel. Tell your Tivo to record "Channel 11 from 8PM to 9:30PM on Tuesday, 4/4/2006" rather than "Record American Idol". You do what you think is right.

ALSO: THE TIVO DOES NOT REQUIRE A PHONE LINE EXCEPT FOR INITIAL SETUP. Mine uses Ethernet, and has since I bought it. It even says in the book what you need - a $10 USB to Ethernet adapter will work, and a wide range of models are supported. Plug and play, man.

Stop with the FUD.

~Will

Re:I Think This Can Be Summed Up In Five Words

[Dare nMc]

> not until I can copy the timeshifted show to my (Linux) PC, PocketPC. or a CD or DVD

I agree, however you should have said supported, not can, you can:

http://armory.nicewarrior.org/projects/vstream-cli ent/ [nicewarrior.org]
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tivo-vlc [sourceforge.net]
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/ [videolan.org]

Re:We call that "Forum Shopping"

[nickname225]

I am an attorney - and this issue of Jury nullification is not entirely true. It's true that in U.S. Criminal cases (where double jeopardy applies) a jury can effectively nullify a law with a finding of not guilty. In civil cases, it's not so easy. A judge in a civil case can overturn a jury finding and render a Judgment notwithstanding the Verdict (JNOV in Lawyerspeak). It's exactly what it sounds like - the jury can find for one party and the judge can decide that the jury is wrong and find for the other side. It's not done too commonly - and judges don't have a completely free hand - the standard is something like "No reasonable jury could reach this verdict". Of course, it's reviewable on appeal - and in the U.S. we are hesitant to over rule a jury - but if the jury just ignores the law a judge will not stand by.

Re:I Think This Can Be Summed Up In Five Words

[Anonymous Coward]

Closed system. The boxes won't operate after a while if they don't get their call into TiVo headquarters. (It's similar to the arbitrariness of DVD region coding.)

Re:Wait, so what was the patent?

[idfubar]

Read it again: "...watching one show and recording another at the same time"

Many VCRs let you watch one channel and record another; it's actually a matter of there being two tuners, one in the TV and one in the VCR.