IE7 Separated from Windows Explorer

An anonymous reader writes "Security experts warned Microsoft 10 years ago that putting IE as a component of Windows Explorer was a bad idea, looks like Microsoft finally decided to listen to the advice. According to a short write up in Business Week, Microsoft has decided that when IE7 comes out with Vista it will no longer be a component of Windows Explorer and will be able to replace IE6 even on XP machines."

Replace IE6 on XP machines?

[LiquidCoooled]

Surely they mean outwordly replace IE 6 like Firefox etc do, whilst keeping IE 6 tied into the XP system?

I wonder what would happen if you decided to remove IE 7 after installing it. Or will they "upgrade" it like they do with DirectX and Media Player (ie one way upgrades only, essentially no rolling back).

They are talking about Click to activate ActiveX controls as being a security benefit thats been added for the user - I thought it was because of losing the patent dispute?

ps, the guy talking sounds like Farnsworth, its worth listening just for that!

Finally!

[noamsml]

Next thing you'll know, maybe they'll realize that running executables out of the browser is a bad idea, and that an arbitrary execution flaw on CD insertion is NOT a feature.

Re:Replace IE6 on XP machines?

[Krach42]

They are talking about Click to activate ActiveX controls as being a security benefit thats been added for the user - I thought it was because of losing the patent dispute?

Companies do this stupid stuff all the time. It's called "Spin".

Banks were marketting the instant scan of checks to customers as a security feature. "See your checks online right away, to be able to spot fraud easier!" In truth? With the instant scans of the checks, "check float" has been removed, and a big issue that banks had with some illegal behavior that most people thought were ok, is gone.

Heck, sometimes it comes to down right lies. I worked for a certain ISP signing people up for service, and if we were having computer problems, like a crash or something, we were told to tell customers that we were "upgrading" our system to provide "better customer service in the future". Which of course is a lie, because the network just sucked and was slow as crap, and the computer would crash and reboot all the time.

I don't believe any "feature" anymore as of Java, which marketed things like "architecture neutral", when I realized, it wasn't "architecture neutral" it was just designed to be an easily emulated architecture.

Back in the Day

[under_score]

I thought that integrating IE with Explorer was a great idea. I talked about it with other techie friends. We all agreed that it would be a "cool thing". Truth be told, it still is a cool thing. I'd love Mozilla to be my official interface to my hard drive as well as the web. Unfortunately, security in such a situation really is tough. In our networked world, there is too much malicious and flawed software/content out there. And so we go backwards feature-wise in order to secure ourselves. Unfortunately this is happening in a lot of places, not just in technology. I'm taking this way beyond the original context, but "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." We can't truly be secure anywhere until we can trust others. And we can't trust others until we have justice. And we can't have justice until we all recognize at a deep level that all human beings are equal. This recognition of the unity of humanity must acknowledge our diversity. Living in harmony is a goal, not a means. The means is the recognition of the unity of humanity.

So in other words...

[moochfish]

So in other words, now that they've won the browser wars at the expense of OS security, they'll unbundle it now.

Re:Great! Now to get Konqueror!

[KingJoshi]

Why would anyone want to separate them? Konqueror is my favorite file manager for that reason. I can have one tab with my web folder, another tab using ftp or sftp, another tab viewing the page on localhost, and another checking the page through the internet. That's how it should be. When I open a file in Kate, I want to be able to open a file remotely or locally. Should be no difference.

The problem with MS's version was that the whole freaking system crashed if IE crashed. And holes in IE left system critical holes in the kernel. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Re:Lied to the EU?

[dtfinch]

You can't completely remove IE without breaking things. A lot of third party programs use IE to display html, or use HTML Help (.chm) files. Without IE, Windows would have trouble running many of the programs Wine has trouble with (unless IE is installed).

Re:Good news

[blamanj]

IE was integrated to get by monopoly restrictions.

It's possible to share code without making an application part of the operating system. They're called DLLs.

Re:Lied to the EU?

[Anonymous Coward]

If combining a file manager with a web browser was stupid, then why did the Konqueror folks rip off the idea and do exactly the same thing?

Bout Friggin Time

[Foofoobar]

Gee, how long did it take them to figure out what people knew from the beginning? Security and IT professionals have flogged this as a major security risk from day 1.

All I can say is that now that they have done this, I'm beginning to believe that they want to build a decent and secure product for their customers.

Re:Lied to the EU?

[FatRatBastard]

I'm not arguing that combining the windows browser with the web browser was stupid (I think its actually not a bad idea). I'm it is a stupid design decision to tie it so tightly to the OS (or, as someone else pointed out not stupid at all if you're Microsoft and you're trying to kill Netscape). There is no technical *need* to run the OS's update functionality through the browser, yet Microsoft did it anyway (if I recall correctly that was one of their exhibits on why they couldn't remove IE from Windows without it all breaking).

If you remove Konqueror from KDE does your entire system shitcan itself? I didn't think so.

They are separate.

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to keep in mind that Konqueror is nothing more than a very thin wrapper around various components. One such component is the HTML renderer, and another is the file manager component.

Each of those components is completely separate. In fact, one could easily write two separate applications (ie. a window with menubars, toolbars, etc., which embeds only one of each component). However, as is often the case, it is better to reuse the common code between the two, and that is what is done.

In effect, the Konqueror file manager is already a completely separate piece of software from the actual web browser (KHTML). They just are accessed together via a common wrapper.

Re:Lied to the US DOJ?

[Anonymous Coward]

They also lied to the US DOJ with the same reasoning. It's suddenly possible when they *want* it to be.

I'm starting to agree with the poster claiming that Slashdot sounds like Fox news and friends sometimes. Repeating vague popular opinion sound bites without merit when you dig below the superficial. If we keep this going we will be the most FUD-based side.

1) It is a fact that old Windows implementation is broken without IE html controls present. They are expected to be there by some applications because they were part of the platform. This has been detailed ad nausam for people really interested in the technical facts and details, but see this post [slashdot.org] just above mine. So they didn't lie. But poor design decision? Certainly.

2) Vista, and only Vista, seperates this. Did you attempt to read the article or anything else about this outside of Slashdot comments?

3) It's amazing, but you can actually change things when you develop a new OS..

Re:What about windowsupdates

[springbox]

I'm pretty sure they said that Windows Update is now going to be run inside of a separate application, which makes more sense than updating critical system components from your web browser

Re:Great! Now to get Konqueror!

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with MS's version was that the whole freaking system crashed if IE crashed. And holes in IE left system critical holes in the kernel.

This is so incorrect I don't even know where to begin. SLASHBOTS: how can you mod such blatantly wrong shit up so high?

Burning karma

[metamatic]

I agree with the parent. Wanting to use a web browser as a file manager? Yeeeesh.

Re:Lied to the EU?

[whitehatlurker]

A lot of third party programs use IE to display html

Yes, they do, and it's complete and utter BS. These third party programmers are too [censored] lazy to use the browser that I have set up as default. MS IE is buried behind a firewall and filtering software so it doesn't run, and I have to manually copy the URL to the good browser from the horrible one. Not a big problem, I guess, but still, I paid for the third party s/w (well, unless it was free), it's running on my machine, it should respect my wishes and defaults.

Another story posted by people that don't get it..

[TheNetAvenger]

Another story posted by people that don't get it...

How many of these stories a day are we now going to get?

IE7 replace IE6? WTF, That has always been possible.

Also Explorer uses the IE 'rendering' dlls, it doesn't use Internet Explorer.

There are so many things wrong with this post and story I don't even know where to start and won't.

If you don't get it, don't post it.

You don't quite understand

[althalusprime]

IE7 will do a lot of great things for Windows XP, but it won't remove the IE subsystem from the OS. Doing that would require almost a complete rewrite of XP (which is what Vista is moving towards) as everything from the aforementioned file manager to the built-in help file viewer relies on the IE subsystem to render to the screen. What IE7 DOES do for XP is basically implement a lot of the security bonus of using FF, like blocking activeX controls, etc. from automatically running, fixing the stupid BHO (browser helper objects) model, attempt to prevent phising and so on and so forth. The true power of the new approach will be evident when Vista comes out. In Vista, IE7 will now run only in user mode (seperate from the kernel), only allow file access to the temporary internet files folder, and more (which can be found easily by googling for IE7 info). It will truely be a godsend to people who have to deal with the consequences of the stupid way IE is now (read: spyware whore). I've had the beta version of IE7 installed on my XP machine for over a month now and it's actually very nice, of course it is still not as secure as using FF, but it doesn't have the FF memory leak feature, and in terms of functionality it has most of the features you use FF for. It just doesn't have the theme/extension architecture that FF does, which sucks, but will probably change (well the extension part, MS seems to have a penchant for denying user customizable UIs). And yes, you can rollback to IE6 just fine whenever you want.

Re:konqueror

[Anonymous Coward]

So, should Konqueror listen to the advice too?

Will a bug in Konqueror cause your kernel to be rooted?

Re:Welcome news

[Just Some Guy]

If it works on XP, what would stop it from running on 2000

You mean, like the fact that XP actually ships with newer components than W2K? By your logic, why stop at Windows 2000? If it can be made to run on XP, then why not NT4? NT3.51? At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say "beyond this point we do not go". It likes like they picked their cutoff.

Re:Lied to the EU?

[FatRatBastard]

Because this was the case with MS/IE/DOJ, of course the OS doesn't "shitcan" itself if you remove html controls, but some applications relying on them being there would have problems. Which does mean that it "breaks" the platform, as long as that was expected part of the platform.

Which goes back to my point about the car radio. BMW makes the car radio part of the ignition circuit and therefor "vital" to the usage of the car. Sure, you replace the radio with an aftermarket Sony, but you'll lose some of the functionality of the car... like the ability for it to start.

There is little technical reason why things such as the OS update code should rely on HTML rendering code, actually only MS's version of HTML rendering code (much like there would be little technical reason for BMW to run the ignition circuitry through the stereo). On the other hand, there was a huge business reason to do so: hurt Netscape.

Re:Welcome news

[cyber-vandal]

Not easily translating to not profitable. What is the difference between NT 5.0 and 5.1 anyway?

Re:Welcome news

[tepples]

What is the difference between NT 5.0 and 5.1 anyway?

Twenty months.

Re:Great! Now to get Konqueror!

[DerPflanz]

The difference is that a Ctrl-Alt-Bksp will kill X and give you a command prompt, whereas Windows has no such option.

You can always use [WinKey] - [R] for a run dialog, and type in 'explorer' there. Or, use ctrl-alt-del to get to that system menu (reboot, etc), which has a 'Run command' option. I had explorer crash many times and in this way I had it back without rebooting.