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XXX!!: Sex and Free Speech

Posted by JonKatz on Mon Jan 10, 2000 11:19 AM
from the The-Net-vs-the-Unconscious-Civilization dept.
The United States loves to see itself as the cradle of liberty, but when it comes to sex, America mostly demonstrates its prudishness and hypocrisy. Sex is our national taboo.The Net, our new national taboo-buster, along with a spate of new laws and court rulings, have all taken this national phobia to meltdown. Are free speech and the online liberation of sexuality incompatible?

For years, it's been impossible to conduct anything like a rational public -policy discussion about the dissemination of sexual information in the United States, a country which constantly proclaims itself the cradle of liberty while being censorious, prudish and hypocritical when it comes to sex.

Sex, in fact, is our national taboo, and the Internet has taken this national phobia to meltdown levels.

America Online loves to position itself as the Main Street of the Internet, but company officials have never been willing to discuss how much of its revenue comes from sex-related chat rooms (in l996, Rolling Stone Magazine "conservatively" estimated AOL's monthly sex chat take at $7 million). If you want to take a guess, just type in a few keywords and consider your options.

That's not a bad thing. Politicians and journalists like to call all sexuality "pornography"or "smut," but services like AOL have permitted the open discussion of sexual issues, preferences and orientations for the first time in American history, even if they'd rather not brag about it. Hapless Americans no longer have to risk arrest or humiliation by hanging around peep shows or porn parlors. They can go online.

This has sent our many moral guardians into hyper-drive, invoking the safety of children as an excuse to beat back the sexual revolution made possible by the digital one.

And it's brought entrenched notions of free speech directly into conflict with emerging sexuality, and the dramatic increase in the availability of sexual imagery. Talk about the unintended consequences of technology.

There's no question sexual predators exist, online and off. Or that the Net has given them a powerful new venue in which to operate. But sex crimes against children are rare online, or as the result of going online. Law enforcement officials, perhaps seeking to expand their jurisdictions and bureaucracies, are continuously sounding alarms about online predators. But federal agencies like the FBI, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and private researchers like author Don Tapscott report that children are many times more likely to be abused by someone they know at home than as the result of sexual encounters online.

Surprisingly, there are no broadly agreed -upon estimates of how many children are victimized by online predators. There appear to be few, especially when considered in proportion to online use. In preparing a book about children and online safety and culture several years ago, several researchers and I were able to project that kids were much more likely to have an airplane fall out of the sky onto their heads than to be harmed as a result of going online.

Estimates range from a handful to a few hundred each year, and the great bulk of those involve older adolescents and teenagers drawn into obsessive or unhealthy relationships.

But it's striking, in the hysteria over kids and sexual imagery online, that there is no reliable data about the number of victims.

This doesn't slow down the media, which continuously sensationalizes the rare instances in which children are lured into real-world encounters by criminals operating online, and panics parents and educators into seeing the dangers as much greater than anyone has proven them to be.

Both journalists and politicians not only confuse sexual imagery with pornography, they also equate any exposure to sexual imagery with danger. This makes anything like a sane public policy discussion of sexuality and the Net impossible, either in Congress, at local school boards or private homes.

Schools, libraries and parents, caught in the middle of this confusing debate, have increasingly washed their hands of this explosive issue, and turned to blocking and filtering programs as a response. Politicians have weight in with blatantly unconstitutional responses like the Communications Decency Acts or equally unconstitutional and unenforceable state statutes like one overturned this week in California.

Monday, Contra Costa Superior Court Judge John Minney declared unconstitutional a penal code section that made it illegal to send sexual material over the Internet if the sender knew the recipient was a minor. Constitutional lawyers called this ruling reasonable and necessary -- as did a staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation -- since the First Amendment protects the right of citizens to distribute sexually explicit material.

In this case, a former middle school teacher was arrested in April after he was caught allegedly attempting to seduce a 14-year-old boy by chatting online and sending explicit photographs. The "victim" was actually a police officer posing as a minor, the latest in a series of cases in which undercover officers "police the Net" by seeking to snare adults who approach children in sexually explicit ways. Predators who seek to assault children or exploit their bodies commercially are already law-breakers, subject to numerous statutes in local, state and federal law.

The Judge ruled that the law prosecutors relied on was simply too vague to be constitutional, and that free speech needed to be protected as well as children's safety. In fact, judges have repeatedly ruled that "decency" acts and statutes prohibit all discussion of certain kids of subjects are against the law.

Critics of the ruling argued that this wasn't a free speech issue, merely an encouragement to pedophiles. But like it or not, restrictions on discussion of sexuality does relate to freedom of speech.

The Contra Costa ruling is a reminder that this is yet another technological issue in urgent need of some coherent discussion, as opposed to the posturing and sensationalizing.

Freedom on the Net is not only constitutionally protected, it is also, by technological evolution and practice, a free culture that almost defies policing. There aren't enough cops on the earth to patrol AOL's chat rooms, let along mailing lists, websites, and global messaging and chat arenas all over the world.

Without question, kids do need to be educated in online safety. The rules are almost shockingly simple: give nobody your phone, numbers, full name or address. Small children ought not be left alone with the Net any more than they're allowed to wander around the mall by themselves.

Instead of banning games and filtering sexual imagery, teachers and parents need to show small children how to be safe online, how to respond to the violent or sexual imagery they may encounter, how to find sites that educational, entertaining and safe.

Is all exposure to sexual imagery dangerous to all kids at all ages? Is some exposure to sexual imagery and discussion safe, even healthy? This society has never figured such questions out, or even addressed them in any sustained way. The explosive growth of the Net practically forces an unconscious civilization to come to terms with reality.

In an era when the Net instantly connects people to all of the archived information in the world, how can reasonable laws be written that protect both children and free speech on the Net? How, for example, are adults interested in sexuality supposed to know the ages of the people they're speaking with in chat rooms? Is discussing sexuality with a teenager a crime? Or does the adult have to harm or intend to harm a minor in some demonstrable way?

From shock radio to cable to movies, magazines and Net chat rooms, American children are growing up with more exposure to sophisticated sexual and other kinds of imagery than any generation that has preceded them.

Is this harming them, and if so, in precisely what kind of ways? If this culture is so dangerous, why is the crime rate among kids dropping so sharply?

America is one of the world's most sexually obsessed and repressed nations, one reason sex sites are among the most visited on the Net, after business, entertainment and sports. Obviously, the sexual interests of U.S. citizens conflict with the puritanical impulses of their elected leaders and religious and moral guides.

Yet like it or not, the Net is breaking down these and other ingrained taboos. The Net has killed off sexual censorship as effectively as it has killed off many other kinds, though many of the country's most powerful institutions are slow to grasp the implications.

The very notion of pornography is a relatively new concept in human history. It came about in Victorian England when researchers from the British Museum dug up the ruins of Pompeii and were stunned to find artworks of all kinds - carvings, vases, paintings - in the ancient Italian city that featured shockingly explicit sexual activity, from oral sex to bestiality. The researchers were amazed to learn that these drawings were displayed all over the homes of Pompeii.

The British decided that women and children were too vulnerable and wanton to see these things, and hid them away in the museum's basement for generations. The idea that sexual imagery is dangerous was born, and soon took root in puritan-settled America.

These ideas need some re-consideration in the Digital Age. Vague laws about decency aren't holding up to the scrutiny of the courts, so children who need education and protection aren't getting any, while the Net-spawned right of access to sexual material for citizens who want it is directly threatened.

If even a fraction of the hysteria about kids, sexuality and the online culture were true, there would be no ambiguity about the dangers to children. There would be clear statistical support for the ongoing hysteria. There isn't.

With the 21st century come some inescapable new realities about freedom and sex. Freedom isn't going to vanish online. Sex is never going back into the closet. And thanks mostly to the federal judiciary rather than legislators sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution, the First Amendment isn't going to be disassembled every time an intractable social challenge involving free speech crops up. If the judges don't see to that, the Internet will.

The biggest issue relating to sex and free speech is out how the two impulses can co-exist with one another in a country that doesn't seem sure if it wants either.

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  • It's not by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:01AM
  • Re:The Minister's Black Veil by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:01AM
  • pray for us by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:03AM
  • Another comparison... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:24AM
  • Jon Katz is no Brock Meeks by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:43AM
  • A response, of sorts... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:56PM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:15AM
  • Christians and tolerance by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:13PM
  • XXX/Children issues/Laws/etc -a good read by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:40PM
  • Re:Jon Katz is no Brock Meeks by mcoletti (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:50AM
  • Just one question... Seriously... by Threed (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:22AM
  • Re:Pornography is new? by Threed (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:41AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by On Lawn (Score:1) Friday January 21 2000, @11:18AM
  • Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by On Lawn (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:24AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by On Lawn (Score:1) Wednesday January 19 2000, @09:58AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by On Lawn (Score:1) Thursday January 20 2000, @12:46PM
  • Re:Here is something you all dreamed about... by Spectre (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:52AM
  • we must support... by Jeff DeMaagd (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:46AM
  • Why is the internet being treated differently? by deanc (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:25AM
  • Speaking of puritanical US citizens.... by docwhat (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:25AM
  • Interesting point here...(slightly off topic) by Malor (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:43AM
  • do your pols support free speech? by MoNsTeR (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:32AM
  • UK? Icleand? by CoffeeNowDammit (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:46AM
  • The stupidity of prudishness by Julian Morrison (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @04:07PM
  • Re:XXX/Children issues/Laws/etc -a good read by SlapAyoda (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:58PM
  • IRC? by Signal 11 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:33AM
  • Religion == pornography by Pig Hogger (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:30PM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Pig Hogger (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:46PM
  • Ironic... by Syberghost (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:32AM
  • Re:New? by tao (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:01AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by toriver (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:53PM
  • origins of pornography and current practice by xoddam (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:57PM
  • And sooo many comments by Belgarion (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @05:02AM
  • Re:The other side... by Lord Kano (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:05AM
  • Re:The other side... by Lord Kano (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:54AM
  • *SOME* regulation is a good thing. by Lord Kano (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:56AM
  • Re:The other side... by Lord Kano (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:09AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? by warmi (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:13AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? by warmi (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:27PM
  • Re:Pandering to the Majority by qseep (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:56PM
  • Re:Online predators? Something much more dangerous by Quikah (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:49AM
  • Re:Mixing things up by 198348726583297634 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:02PM
  • Re:AOL is NOT a good example. by Mark Gordon (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:00AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by anomaly (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:15AM
  • Re:New? by NMerriam (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:02AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by Greg W. (Score:1) Friday January 21 2000, @08:17AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by Greg W. (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @10:08AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by weston (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:32PM
  • Re:Pornography is new? by Charlotte (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:15AM
  • JonKatz.useless = true; by MeanGene (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:45AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by kmactane (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:32AM
  • Responsibility by Angwe (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:04PM
  • Re:Mixing things up by aphrael (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:38PM
  • Re:Ööööh (correct spelling of Uuuh)? by angelo (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:11AM
  • Who's hysterical? by Rev Snow (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:48AM
  • Re:The other side... by Kaa (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:48AM
  • Re:The other side... by Kaa (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:43AM
  • Re:falling airplanes by Ralph Wiggam (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:34AM
  • Re:let the $$$ roll in... by Electric Barbarella (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:31AM
  • Re:Some thoughts by matija (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @11:50AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Drinky Crow (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:41AM
  • Re:FUCK.COM still registered to Calif. Court! Ruli by Drinky Crow (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:08AM
  • Is pornography even harmful? by BeanThere (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:41AM
  • The one thing I find funny is... by GauteL (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:20PM
  • ok, article isn´t that fresh by FutileRedemption (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:50AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Wah (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:40AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by dAzED1 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:55AM
  • all I can say is "weak" by dAzED1 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:04AM
  • Re:Online predators? Something much more dangerous by CharlieG (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:34AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by Silas (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:44AM
  • Re:Pornography is new? by Silas (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:51AM
  • Re:A hangup of the English Speaking world? by Zurk (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:23AM
  • Re:Just one question... Seriously... by Ratoslov Lenev (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @04:32PM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Manax (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:free speech=free nonsense by Steve B (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @02:39AM
  • Re:Democracy killed socrates by TypoDaemon (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:45PM
  • Re:Working class by shadrack (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:11PM
  • PS by shadrack (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:13PM
  • Re:Dildos illegal in Alabama, since 1998 by shadrack (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:29PM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by ronfar (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:30AM
  • Sex + America == NULL POINTER by tilleyrw (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:01AM
  • Pro-porn (slightly off topic, maybe) by DrMaurer (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:10PM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by Cryp2Nite (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:Oh buh-ruther. by Ma10 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:05PM
  • Wrong Assumption by medcalf (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:02PM
  • Re:but, the United States is the cradle of liberty by medcalf (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:08PM
  • Re:The most annoying thing... by Flenser (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:46PM
  • Re:Democracy killed socrates by Flenser (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @04:10PM
  • falling airplanes by DeadSea (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:41AM
  • Sex in a larger scope. by senrik (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:55AM
  • Re:AOL is NOT a good example. by punkass (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:00AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Tilde~ (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:21AM
  • Dangerous? by DrkShadow (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:40PM
  • Airhead! CENSORSHIP is relevant on /. by anonymous cowerd (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:38PM
  • pornagraphy is not THAT new of a thing by spitzig (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @05:52AM
  • it started with Jesus by spitzig (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @05:57AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by rkent (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:52PM
  • As an American raised Overseas.... by Feral Wylde I (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:25AM
  • Re:IRC? by vyesue (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:09AM
  • Re:Dildos illegal in Alabama, since 1998 by vyesue (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:12AM
  • Re:IRC? ---dork use a good IRC client and they ca by vyesue (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:32AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by Monolith (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:46AM
  • Re:The other side... by deefer (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @04:57AM
  • Re:The other side... by deefer (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:52AM
  • Re:oh say can you see... by deefer (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:17AM
  • Yet another Jon Katz article with nothing to say by Vicegrip (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:44AM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by Stu_28 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:26PM
  • Re:IRC? by treat (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:11AM
  • Re:Dildos illegal in Alabama, since 1998 by treat (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:18AM
  • Re: Anarcho Capitalism by kevin805 (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @07:13AM
  • XXX!!: Sex and Free Speech by admindood (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:51AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by djfiander (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:41AM
  • Re:Who's hysterical? by jyang (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by Stonehead (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:33AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by Foosinho (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:22AM
  • Re:IRC? by mcrandello (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:54AM
  • Re:IRC? by mcrandello (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:10AM
  • Talking about sexual issues and teen pregnancies by Bostik (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:53PM
  • Re:Why have kids when you won't raise them, anyway by brumby (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @04:06PM
  • /.ers are good at [discussing] sex... by Wolfier (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @11:45PM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by quakeaddict (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:07AM
  • Katz.. by tarp (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:50PM
  • Re:Some thoughts by ASM (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:59PM
  • why not go the aussie way ... by Blondito (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:07PM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? Greece? by MattMann (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:11PM
  • Re:but, the United States is the cradle of liberty by MattMann (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:33PM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by metagnat (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:45AM
  • Why have kids when you won't raise them, anyway? by pingflood (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:24AM
  • Re:Why have kids when you won't raise them, anyway by pingflood (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @05:21PM
  • A hangup of the English Speaking world? by supersnail (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:51AM
  • Re:falling airplanes by BoneFlower (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:39AM
  • Sex and the Net by BoneFlower (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:29AM
  • The view from under... by eldurbarn (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:29AM
  • Re:The other side... by MatsG (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:19AM
  • On unnamed fathers .. [Was: "Re:The other side...] by MatsG (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:03PM
  • Italy is a farce by bartok (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @05:12PM
  • Re:IRC? by Rakarra (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @02:24PM
  • Re:Some thoughts by Rakarra (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @04:55PM
  • Re:but, the United States is the cradle of liberty by Sumocide (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @05:59PM
  • Re:The most annoying thing... by Midnight Ryder (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:20AM
  • Testing the waters of freedom with p0rn by wide-eyed (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:02PM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by MonkeyMagic (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:50AM
  • A little over zealous for sex? by TastyFrez (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:22AM
  • Random Thoughts by SRT (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:46AM
  • The United States is NOT a Democracy by Morocco Mole (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @02:24PM
  • American prudishness by Simon_Moon (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:39AM
  • Re:Pornography under-investigated, under-prosecute by 17028 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @05:59PM
  • Re:Katz has found his forte! by 17028 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:06PM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by Strauss (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:18AM
  • Re:falling airplanes by nojomofo (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:55AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Scrymarch (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @03:12PM
  • Interesting by jallen02 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:56AM
  • Re:Interesting by jallen02 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:25AM
  • Not to take sides, but... by RobinH (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:52AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by J. Chrysostom (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:40AM
  • Re:Why have kids when you won't raise them, anyway by nuance (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @12:04PM
  • protect the kids. by small_dick (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:56AM
  • Re:let the $$$ roll in... by uh (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:33AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? Greece? by IceBishop (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @11:37PM
  • Re:Some thoughts [not entirely on-topic] by dsl (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:59AM
  • Re:The sexual revolution is a tragedy by The Reverend (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @11:54AM
  • Fascinating by Geordie Bloke (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @11:23AM
  • Re:Random Thoughts by Neo(Utopian) (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:41AM
  • oh say can you see... by potironhead (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @06:36AM
  • Re:protect the kids. by ktuomain (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:17AM
  • Re:Why is the internet being treated differently? by ktuomain (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @09:32AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by ktuomain (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:17AM
  • Its all politics by truesaer (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @08:29PM
  • Here is something you all dreamed about... by 686 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:01AM
  • Check this out by 686 (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? by Sal Paradise (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:06AM
  • quibbling by Sal Paradise (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @11:46AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? by MPV-NL (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @10:58AM
  • Re:Pandering to the Majority by MPV-NL (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @11:11AM
  • Re:but, the United States is the cradle of liberty by MPV-NL (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @08:33AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? Greece? by MPV-NL (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @08:53AM
  • internet is best molester catching tool ever by ScrapOfCat (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @01:52PM
  • Re:Troll?? by jbrians (Score:1) Monday January 10 2000, @04:40PM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by The_Mac (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @07:00AM
  • Sex in Ancient History by Gaius (Score:1) Tuesday January 11 2000, @02:51PM
  • The sexual revolution is a tragedy by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @12:17PM
  • Online predators? Something much more dangerous... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:07AM
  • Re:The other side... by Eccles (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @12:09PM
  • Re:Some thoughts by jd (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @06:10AM
  • Re:It's a thorny issue... by Millennium (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @09:06PM
  • Re:It's a thorny issue... by Millennium (Score:2) Wednesday January 12 2000, @09:54AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by isaac (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:06AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by Squid (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:16AM
  • Re:Parents gotta *parent*, dammit. by Squid (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:04AM
  • Re:UK? Icleand? by Guy Harris (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @05:27PM
  • Re:The other side... by Guy Harris (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @05:32PM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by **SkipKent** (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:41AM
  • Lack of public naturism contributes to the problem by Morgaine (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @01:14PM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by brennanw (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:02AM
  • But Katz isn't saying what you're saying by brennanw (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @11:50AM
  • American bashfulness (offtopic) by LarsWestergren (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:43AM
  • Re:Sex + America == NULL POINTER by Lord Kano (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:40AM
  • Re:The other side... by Bearpaw (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:53AM
  • Re:The other side... by Bearpaw (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @11:21AM
  • The Minister's Black Veil by jabber (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:55AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by Gerv (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:04AM
  • You can't categorize sexuality by Greg W. (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @06:58AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by Greg W. (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @07:13AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by Greg W. (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @08:18AM
  • Re:Katz and Mouz, a View on Katz and his Followers by Greg W. (Score:2) Thursday January 20 2000, @05:27AM
  • Re:Origins of Pornography by Industrial Disease (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:43AM
  • Re:Some thoughts by drox (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @03:40PM
  • Well I was actually disagreeing with someone ... by scrutty (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @11:23AM
  • Dildos illegal in Alabama, since 1998 by FutileRedemption (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:50AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by Wah (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:43AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @10:08AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @09:03AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @10:29AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @09:11AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @10:43AM
  • Re:The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @09:40AM
  • The other side... by Shotgun (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:01AM
  • Pornography is new? by Silas (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:33AM
  • Sex, Sexuality, and Pornography by Necromncr (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:59AM
  • Someone Foresaw This Article! by Louziffer (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:03AM
  • Why repeating "Old News" occasionally is good by Robert Link (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:34AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by Steve B (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:39AM
  • Religion != Bible & Religion != Government by Steve B (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @03:11AM
  • Re:It's a thorny issue... by Steve B (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @03:35AM
  • Re:It's not quite like that by Steve B (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:52AM
  • Re:It's a thorny issue... by Steve B (Score:2) Wednesday January 12 2000, @02:35AM
  • Re:Why repeating "Old News" occasionally is good by w3woody (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @07:42AM
  • Re:origins of pornography and current practice by radja (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @05:10AM
  • Pornography under-investigated, under-prosecuted. by fwoomer (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @01:12PM
  • Re:Interesting by Kintanon (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @09:07AM
  • The Rolling Stone... by Rabbins (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:23AM
  • Re:Dildos illegal in Alabama, since 1998 by technos (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:10AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by vyesue (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:20AM
  • Re:all I can say is "weak" by vyesue (Score:2) Wednesday January 12 2000, @06:36AM
  • Re:Narcissism by slashdot-terminal (Score:2) Tuesday January 11 2000, @05:05AM
  • Mixing things up by icing (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:06AM
  • Re:AOL is NOT a good example. by TheCarp (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:59AM
  • Re:What an Amazing Pile of Liberal Crap by TheCarp (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:02AM
  • but, the United States is the cradle of liberty. by MattMann (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @07:24AM
  • 1st Amendment & the Net by dweiss (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:42AM
  • Re:Porn != Open Sexuality by oosiris (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @08:21AM
  • Parental supervision needed by jetfire (Score:2) Monday January 10 2000, @06:39AM
  • Re:Some thoughts (Score:3)

    by jd (1658) <[imipak] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Monday January 10 2000, @09:11AM (#1386928) Homepage Journal
    The possibility of exposure, and the possibility of harassment are two different things, IMHO.

    Imagine a case of an evangelist preaches at the same corner, shouting their religious beliefs at the top of their voice. If you don't agree with their beliefs, you can choose to ignore them, go a different route, or listen and think. The point is, you have a choice.

    Now, let's take that same evangelist, and say that he will set up shops, disguised as a store manager or a friendly baker, only leaping out of the disguise at the last second, screaming into your ear. Your choice has been taken away. Your ability to say "hey, that's cool for you, but it's not for me" has been removed. In short, you have created a dynamic where the evangelist can deny you what I perceive to be a basic freedom - a freedom to choose no.

    This is the crux of the matter, for me. If there is no freedom to choose no, and have that accepted, then there can be no freedom to choose yes. And vice versa. Only one option is never a choice, even if that option is a "yes". It is control and domination.

    It is my belief that, wherever society goes with it's freedoms, people will remain as enslaved as ever, if they can't choose the option they want, whatever that option is.

    It's like religious tolerence, in that it can't be one way. If it is, then it's not tolerence. It's subservience. Tolerence, freedom, acceptence - these make demands of ALL involved, not just one side or another.

    IMHO, what you do in your room is your business. Go surfing all the prawnography you like. Do what you like. But the moment I feel my liberty to do likewise is under threat, in the name of someone else's "freedom", sorry, but that goes one step too far. You don't need to threaten my liberty and concepts of what I enjoy, to protect and expand your own.

    No man is an island, and anything you do WILL affect others. It's up to you as to whether it's reinforcing both YOUR freedom AND theirs, or bolstering yours at the expense of theirs. THAT is the one real choice. Every other argument over rights boils down to that.

    I see all too many "anti-censorship" doing little more than the "cowboys" of the Wild West, or the settlers of Australia or New Zealand, slaughtering the hapless natives because they were "different" and didn't act the same. The "anti-censorship" people can't win, that way. That way lies the destruction of rights, which is the very thing the "anti-censorship" crowd claim to be defending. The only way to "win" is for both sides to accept each other, and provide the means for both to co-exist, peacefully.

    If you don't want to co-exist, fine. That's your choice. But don't blame me if the fighting goes beyond nasty words on a web page. We've both seen similar intolerence of either side boil over into terrorism, on issues not a million miles away. I -know- that net folk are sensible, intelligent and mature, by and large. It doesn't have to degenerate into thuggery, but it's perilously close. Every time someone pronounces the "TRUTH" as if God came down on a charriot and handed the writer a full transcript of the Almighty's Verdict, I want to throw up. Especially if they go on about "freedom" and "rights". Where's the room for others to have their own thoughts or feelings? Where's the room for others to know what's confortable for them, or what's right for them?

    No room, no liberty. No liberty, no life. It's just a vacant shell, going through the motions. If someone, in "your best interests", makes decisions for you, without your consent, even if "well-intentioned", are abusing you. I don't want to live life as a robot, seeing only what Jon Katz deems "acceptable" and a part of "free speech", deprived of any meaningful life or liberty. I don't want to be a mere statistic, with no independent existance, free to have the life of my choice. I don't want porn sites masquerading as stores, or sci-fi sites. I don't want banners hi-jacked and explicit photos or messages substituted. I don't want my browser ambushed, and re-directed without my consent or ability to stop. (It's trivial to block a close command.)

    To quote Terry Pratchett (Feet of Clay), "Freedom without Responsibility is Meaningless". How true that is.

  • Some thoughts (Score:3)

    by jd (1658) <[imipak] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Monday January 10 2000, @06:48AM (#1386929) Homepage Journal
    First, I believe all people have the absolute right to see and hear what they choose. If, physically, your right to wave your fist ends at the tip of my nose, then your right to broadcast what you choose should equally stop at the limits of my eyes.

    I don't advocate censorship, so put those flamethrowers down. I -DO- advocate that the absolute, inalienable right to say what you like MUST be counter-balanced with the EQUALLY absolute, inalienable right to choose what to hear. To have one right without the other is to walk down the road of having one group or another in absolute power. It's this road that has caused all the censorship grief in the first place. Why advocate or promote yet more grief? Surely it would be better to promote sanity than vengence. Because that's all you get when you deny others a freedom, for reasons of maintaining power and control.

  • by Millennium (2451) on Monday January 10 2000, @08:42AM (#1386930) Homepage
    Worse, it seems that both sides operate off of a logical fallacy. The pro-censorship peole believe that an adult can only handle seeing that which is fit for a child. The anti-censorship people seem to believe that everything is fit for a child.

    I propose a compromise. Government-mandated censorship is simply wrong (in fact, it's more immoral than any amount of pornography could ever be). Parental censorship (and self-censorship) is another matter entirely. Therefore, enact laws which make it easier for parents to block out material, while never mandating such blocking by anybody.

    I've always been intrigued by the ".xxx TLD plan" Under that rule, all porn sites (the definition would have to be decided upon, of course) must go into this TLD. This makes content-filtering absurdly simply for parents; simply disallow connnections to or from those domains. I would add a clause which allows a site to petition to be allowed to "escape" that domain, since invariably some non-pornographic sites will fall under any definition of pornography that the lawmakers care to make.

    Of course, this does nothing for the other big problem in the Net (hate speech) but a similar plan could be used.

    I agree that free speech is important. I agree that the only truly effective methods of keeping a child away from sotes parents don't want them to see is for the parents to do their damn job and spend time with their children on the Net. But let's face it; many parents will pick the easy way out and use filtering software (and then of course there's the issue of schools and libraries, whose computers are meant for research and really shouldn't be used for picking up pr0n anyway). So you might as well make the filtering easier.
  • Liberty (Score:3)

    by roystgnr (4015) <(roystgnr) (at) (ticam.utexas.edu)> on Monday January 10 2000, @07:38AM (#1386931) Homepage
    "The United States loves to see itself as the cradle of liberty"...

    Yeah, and Jon Katz loves to see himself as an exposer of hypocrisy and warrior against The Man. Neither of which is a perfect self-image, but I think the U.S. is a little closer.

    Haven't you made this "liberty == total lack of judgement" mistake before, Jon? I seem to remember some previous article where most of the replies were patiently explaining to you the difference between "freedom of speech" and "freedom to make people listen to you".

    Liberty doesn't mean that everybody has to be a mindless proponent of whatever stupid opinion, annoying behavior, or questionable pornography that their neighbor puts online. Liberty just means that those things are allowed, whether most people like them or not.

    And if you'll do a search for "xxx" (or many more interesting keywords) sometime you'll find that these things are, most definitely, allowed. En masse.

    Even in the prudish, hypocritical USA. Imagine that.
  • New? (Score:3)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Monday January 10 2000, @06:48AM (#1386932) Homepage
    The very notion of pornography is a relatively new concept in human history

    now this isn't even remotely accurate. The entire field of fine arts was considered "gentleman's pornigraphy" for centuries because the soft-porn nudes were acceptable to be viewed under the auspice of art.

    That is some of the cynicism that the more modern artists rebelled against -- Manet got in trouble and caused such a scandal in high society not because he wasn't a fantastic painter (he was always regarded as a decent craftsman) but because he painted nudes in a way that did not "apologize" or cover them up with mythological overtones ("you see, gentlemen, this nude is Europa, and Zeus is raping her, so it's a mythological illustration, not a soft-porn image").

    It was simply unacceptable to a society that had embraced nudes as something "artistic" only in their disconnection from reality, and refused to state the genuine sexual content of the images they had been consuming and displaying for centuries.
  • My frustration (Score:3)

    by quadong (52475) on Monday January 10 2000, @07:41AM (#1386933) Homepage
    What drives me nuts is this line of thought.

    (1) Given: Sex is a natural and good human behavior.

    If (1), then why is it bad for children to know about sex? Because if they do, adult sexual perverts can take advantage of them.

    What is a sexual pervert? A person who seeks out sex in ways that are against society standards.

    If these people found it easier to have sex with people their own age, would they seek out children? Probably not for the most part.

    So if everyone accepted (1) there probably would be very few child molesters? yea.

    So if everyone accepted (1), people could have more sex, not be afraid of having or asking for sex, and we wouldn't (for the most part) have to worry about our children being victimized? Um, yea.

    So how can we make this happen? Well, we could make information about sex more widely known so that everyone can realize that it isn't evil.

    But you will have to tell the children this stuff also in order for this to work, right? um, yea...

    But in the current state, that is considered dangerous, so how do we move from here to there? Oh, dammit, I don't know!
    ------------------------------
    Or try this one:

    If (1), then why is it bad for children to know about sex? Because the easiest and most common way to be exposed to sex is pornography, and most pornography promotes a negitive view of women and/or encourages unsafe sexual behavior.

    But the reason that they portray women this way is because porn is a half-way underground industry and needs to protray them this way in order to survive. If they didn't, they wouldn't appear as exciting, right? I guess so.

    So if there was nothing really covert and exciting about pictures of naked people, they could be shown just like pictures of everything else, and not as "see the dirty whores" and whatnot. In other words, if porn weren't hidden, it wouldn't need to be dirty? Yea, I think so.

    So if we make porn readily avalaible, it will not only cease to be demeaning and dangerous, but it will probably become higher quality too (I don't want to see dirty, I want to see beautiful, you know)? Yea!

    Alright! How do we bring this about? Well... If we make all porn easily avalaible now, it will still be mostly the dirty stuff, so that isn't good, so if we find the good stuff and show that to people... but those people will still assume it is dirty because "porn" and "dirty" are synonomous to most people... and we would have to hire lots of people to find the good stuff in any case, but there'd be no one who'd pay people to do this and --- dammit again!
    ---------------------------------
    Now, I have made one very large assumption here (that child molesters exist because of sexual repression) and ignored a few other things, but the discussion could easily be expanded to include these and still come to the same conclusion of "I don't know how to change the system!" Even if everyone agrees to (1), it can't change, because according to the rules, you can't tell people (that you don't know really well) that you agree to (1), and you have to act in many situations as tho you don't. The anonimity (pardon spelling) on the Internet has helped a little, but so many people aren't Internet capable or have had the "sex is dirty" idea driven so deeply into them that they actually believe it, rather than just pretending to, as many of us do.

    I don't suppose I have actually given any information here that people didn't already know (and if fact much of what I have said may have been incoherant), but I felt a need to say this, thanks for listening.
  • by quadong (52475) on Monday January 10 2000, @06:55AM (#1386934) Homepage
    Before anyone else responds to this, I would like to point out that the writer either:

    a. Is trying to make people yell at him by emmulating a common (but slightly less blatent) type of slashdotter.

    b. Really is that kind of slashdotter and a very bad one at that.

    In either case, I wouldn't recommend responing to him, since if(a), that is exactly what he wants and if(b), it won't get you anywhere.
  • by rkent (73434) <rkent@post.harv[ ].edu ['ard' in gap]> on Monday January 10 2000, @06:39AM (#1386935)

    Okay. I think the politicos are not the only ones guilty of this mistake. Katz does point out that they constantly confuse porn with open discussion of sexuality, but so do a lot of other people!

    I'm all for an open discussion of sexuality in almost any venue, be it internet chat or "meatspace" coffee shops... whatever. But I don't approve of porn, because I think it's just a method of exploiting all involved and reinforcing negative gender/sex stereotypes which are responsible for *lots* of the problems in our society.

    Now, hopefully we're still in agreement here. But probably not, because I've heard so much discussion about how not allowing access to porn "restricts rights." Personally, I don't think people necessarily should have the right to participate in such victimization, and I actually view it as unfortunate that this is covered by the first amendment. It's really too bad that Katz had to associate XXX with free speech in his headline. Hardcore porn keeps a lot of voices from being heard; it's not a liberation thing for the viewer or the viewed.

    Let's keep the debate focused on the important aspects Katz brings out, like the opportunity to use AOL (for example) as a venue for anonymous, important discussion of "taboo" sexuality. This is not the same as "Asain closeup pix plz msg me."

  • by kevin805 (84623) on Monday January 10 2000, @09:48AM (#1386936)
    Democracy != Liberty

    Does "mob rule" bring a pleasant image to mind? Was it a totalitarian state that convicted Socrates of corrupting the youth?

    Democracy just means that there are more people telling you how to live your life.

    Liberty is being left alone to live your life as you see fit.

    California voters approved a law (prop 187) which would essentially require presenting an ID card for *anything*. Signing up for school? Bring your papers. I really don't like being governed by people who have no understanding of economics, but that's what democracy means.

    I'm not advocating monarchy, or dictatorship, or anything like that. I'm advocating stripping the government of power so that there is very little there to be abused.

    --kevin
  • by Skinwalker (114687) on Monday January 10 2000, @06:31AM (#1386937)
    I dispute your claim that pornography is a "relatively new concept in human history". Hindu has had a long tradition of artwork that would be considered sexually explicit by western terms, going back far before even the Roman Empire. Also, the Japanese have, for centuries, traditionally distributed pillow books (basically a how-to picture book for newlyweds) amongst their young adults. Western culture came into contact with these phenomena, and others, long before Victorian archaeologists dug up Pompeii. However, if you want to talk about sexual dysfunction and Victorians... well, I haven't got all day :P...
  • by Wah (30840) on Monday January 10 2000, @06:49AM (#1386938) Homepage Journal
    Personally, I don't think people necessarily should have the right to participate in such victimization, and I actually view it as unfortunate that this is covered by the first amendment.

    This is what Free Speech is all about. If we didn't have it (or defend it diligently) it would be considered "o.k." for our government to decide what we "should" or "should not" have the right to participate in. Free Speech is a two-edged sword, this subject is the pointy end. (Join Puns for pr0n now! :-)

    Hardcore porn keeps a lot of voices from being heard; it's not a liberation thing for the viewer or the viewed.

    Some voices you don't want to hear...ooohh!, ooooh!, aaaaah!, yes, yes, don't stop!! (hehe, sorry couldn't help my animal side from emerging)
  • Oh buh-ruther. (Score:4)

    by hey! (33014) on Monday January 10 2000, @08:00AM (#1386939) Homepage Journal
    For years, it's been impossible to conduct anything like a rational public -policy discussion about the dissemination of sexual information in the United States, a country which constantly proclaims itself the cradle of liberty while being censorious, prudish and hypocritical when it comes to sex.

    What do you mean taboo? Pick up any magazine in the supermarket checkout and you'll find a frank and earnest discussion about sexual technique. If anything people are simply sick of the media hype over sex (sex sells; discussion of sex apparently sells media). I like to eat and cook food, but sometimes the foodies get on my nerves.

    And as far as discourse is concerned, I could walk up to any of my brothers, sisters, or in-laws or neighbors and have a rational discussion about sex education, and they'd probably have a lot of well thought out opinions, although they wouldn't all agree.

    People may have different sexual mores but that's a different thing from being a prude or a hypocrite. Many people with children would prefer if advertisers didn't push a viewpoint that equates consumption with sexual attractiveness. Some people would prefer sex be a spiritual (e.g. personal and transcendant) rather than a media experience. After all, we call them "media" because they "mediate" for us -- they put themselves between us and the thing being considered.

    We can't all have our way; dealing with divergent points of view is part of the give and take of living an a dynamic and civilized socity. It's hard work and it does no good to stand up and declare the ill-will or hypocrisy of people you don't agree with and probably don't understand very well. People like Mr. Katz who aspire to the role of media need to get the chip off their shoulder and do the hard work of getting to understand people they don't agree with.

  • by brennanw (5761) on Monday January 10 2000, @06:39AM (#1386940) Homepage
    Katz claims that politicians are prudish, don't like sex, fear sex, consider sex immoral, whatever. I disagree: history has shown that politicians are some of the most sexually active people on the planet. The peccadillos of politicians are the stuff of legend.

    The real issue here is that politicians take a sampling of social mores and exploit those mores as a way to stay elected. Most politicians don't give a damn about pornography on the internet -- unless they feel it'll get them elected. It has nothing to do with morality or prudishness, it has _everything_ to do with the accumulation of power.

    Politicians will exploit the "sex card" in order to whip up hysteria and get themselves elected. They will exploit the "fear of terrorism card" in order to whip up hysteria, get themselves elected, and whittle away at our rights in order to increase the strength of their position.

    None of this is particularly new.

    What I absolutely DISAGREE with, however, is Katz' assertion that someone who speaks out against "pornography" is somehow diluting free speech. Free speech is free if and only if BOTH sides of the issue are heard.

    In other words, if you only hear speech about how good sex is, how wonderful pornography is, how liberating it is, THAT IS NOT FREE SPEECH. If you only hear speech about how terrible sex is, how horrible pornography is, how exploitative it is, THAT IS NOT FREE SPEECH EITHER. Katz is confusing his particular moral stance (sexuality on the net is liberating) with free speech (which is an open exchange of ALL ideas, be they right or wrong).

    I would hope Mr. Katz would use a bit more caution in the future. He has a tendency to paint everyone on the other side of his fence as reactionary idiots. Certainly many of them are, but such strong language tends to discourage a reasoned response from opponents -- thus discouraging free speech.
  • by w3woody (44457) on Monday January 10 2000, @07:26AM (#1386941) Homepage
    The United States loves to see itself as the cradle of liberty, but when it comes to sex, America mostly demonstrates its prudishness and hypocrisy. Sex is our national taboo.

    Actually, the United States runs about in the middle of the world when it comes to sexual prudishness. Of course when we discuss sexual openness, we tend to look towards Italy (where just about every sexual fetish has it's own magazine at the local corner), and away from Saudi Arabia, where we find their "repression of women" less a sexual issue and more a human rights issue. Of course if Italy were to interpret our dress codes in the same way we interpret Islamic dress codes, they'd blame us for human rights violations because we don't allow our women to run topless on the beach instead of just calling us sexually repressed.

    This has sent our many moral guardians into hyper-drive, invoking the safety of children as an excuse to beat back the sexual revolution made possible by the digital one.

    Do you know why prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions in the United States? It wasn't always that way, you know.

    But back at the turn of the last century, a bunch of articles appeared which talked about the evils of "white slavery." The concern back then was that white women were being abducted and transported across the nation or across the world to serve as sexual slaves in brothels, and prostitution simply fed the world's hunger for white slave women. This of course appeared in the British press, and was picked up by other English-speaking nations rather quickly. So the drive to eliminate prostitution in order to save "our fair damsels" caused most of the english-speaking world to outlaw prostitution.

    Nowadays we don't cry "in the name of our fair women and children", as since WWII, the women's movement has woken us up to the realization that women are not sexual toys and wives, but men's equals. So we now have turned towards "protecting the children" instead.

    But this is old political hat, and anyone with any sense of history would know that we've been using "saving our children" as an excuse to pass legislation since before Romulus and Remus founded a nation amongst seven hills in central Italy.

    But federal agencies like the FBI, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and private researchers like author Don Tapscott report that children are many times more likely to be abused by someone they know at home than as the result of sexual encounters online.

    And this is news how?

    I'm sorry, but the downfall of any democracy is that we tend to have lopsided enforcement of the laws depending on the "public outrage du joir." There is a history of this going back since pretty much the start of democracy. It's not supprising that there is lopsided enforcment against "on-line child pornography" to the point where laws have been passed (and since rejected) that outlaw photographs of young women who appear to be under 18 years of age. As soon as the outrage against child pornography on the net passes in another 5 years or so, we'll move on to something else, and the true child pedaphiles (all five of them) will be safe to troll AOL again.

    But it's striking, in the hysteria over kids and sexual imagery online, that there is no reliable data about the number of victims.

    Which is very common in this era of "hype-induced legislation." Very old news to anyone who follows this sort of stuff. What is more troubling is the fact that when data does arrive, it's ignored in favor of the public hype.

    For example, there is very reliable data that shows that "three strikes" doesn't work. First, it causes criminals who find themselves on their third strike to "raise the stakes", so to speak, when it comes to their defense on the third strike. (As "three strikes" gives them little recourse but to go to jail for life, they have nothing to lose in putting on the most expensive defense they can.) This contributes to an already overburdened court system. Couple this with the fact that a lot of third strikes are going towards folks who do as little as steal a slice of pizza, and you have a law which Just Doesn't Work.

    But with this data, does anyone do jack to solve the problem? No; "three strikes" is a very popular piece of legislation, even if it doesn't work.

    I fear the same thing will happen with on-line pornography--no matter what sorts of evidence people discover about on-line sexual discussions and forums, it will be ignored in the name of "if we can just save one child, it will be worth it." (Ignoring of course that "it" == trashing the first amendment.)

    The very notion of pornography is a relatively new concept in human history. It came about in Victorian England when researchers from the British Museum dug up the ruins of Pompeii and were stunned to find artworks of all kinds...

    Not even close. But thank you for playing.

    Turns out anyone who has even bothered to spend a half-hour taking a lecture tour of their local museum knows better than this.

    For example, ever wonder why there were so many nude Christs and nude angels being painted in the 14th and 15th century? Because it was a way to get around the church's edict forbidding pornography. By disguising these images as religious paintings, 15th century artists were able to get away with painting what was otherwise forbidden subjects. British Victorian prudishness was only interesting in that the British managed to invent a reason for prudishness which did not involve the Roman Catholic Church.

    The biggest issue relating to sex and free speech is out how the two impulses can co-exist with one another in a country that doesn't seem sure if it wants either.

    The best way to resolve these issues is an educated public who gets involved with the political process. Unfortunately, I rarely find either of these two qualities within a country mile of eachother.

    And I find little evidence here of either as well.

    Frankly I could go on for another 100K on the problems, nits and other serious problems with this little essay which negate both the thesis and the conclusions as nothing more than popular reactionism to popularized tripe, but what's the point? I'll just say that (a) it ain't just "us prudish Americans", (b) that pornography was not a "British Victorian invention", that (c) hype about saving our children is not just restricted to the 'net or to pornography, that (d) the 'net didn't invent the downfall of sexual prudishness but only placed a spotlight on an issue that is at least a century old, and (e) it ain't going to be solved by empty little position pieces which can't be bothered to research the issues involved.
  • by Aero (98829) <erwin71m @ g m a i l . c om> on Monday January 10 2000, @06:51AM (#1386942)

    What's the real issue here? Sex? Free speech? Or the fact that far too many parents want the government to do the job of parenting for them?

    Security through obscurity doesn't work in the tech world, and it sure as hell doesn't work in parenting. Yet it's the most popular mode of operation for many parents: try to hide the existence of sex from the kids, while at the same time put off figuring out how to explain it to the kids when the time comes. And just like in the tech world, when the obscurity is dispelled, there's as often as not no real "security plan" left. In the case of parents, what often happens is the kid comes home and wants to know something about sex; the parents haven't planned The Talk out, and hem and haw uncomfortably. Kid decides to do some independent research, the parents find out, and they start screaming about the filth polluting America's youth. Government hears the screams and decides to do something about it. But where was the real point of failure here?

    Many kids want to listen to their parents. But for the parents to fill that role, they have to open their eyes and realise that simply hiding uncomfortable truths (and the way a lot of people are brought up, things like sex are uncomfortable truths) isn't the way to go. Controlled, supervised exposure is what's needed. But that's just too much involvement, it seems, for many parents these days.

  • by LoveBear (100195) on Monday January 10 2000, @07:22AM (#1386943) Homepage
    There's an unfortunately clear string of reasons why America has such a hard time getting anywhere with regard to sex and sexuality, online or off:
    1. America has one of the largest active conservative Christian populations in the world (groups such as the Mormons, the Southern Baptist Convention, more extremist members of the Catholics, et cetera).
    2. America has no mandatory-voting law, unlike many European nations.

    3. This means that the only people who bother showing up to the polls on election day are the ones who really have feel strongly on the issues. The accuracy of telephone and other "random" polls are often questioned based on this very fact (that the only people who bother to respond are already several standard deviations towards the edges of the bell curve in their opinions), but nobody questions the accuracy of the polling booths. Taking these two together, you get this:

    4. The religious extremist movement constitutes one of the most important voting blocs in American politics.

    Most politicians know they can't afford to upset or alienate these voters, and so they act in accordance with what those who got them elected (not necessarily their consituents) want.

    Basically, we have a political body that feels the need to cater to the whim of an extremist minority viewpoint and has a stronger desire to get re-elected than it does to do the right thing in office. We can't make intelligent laws about topics that these people don't want discussed, and sex is one of them. There are some states that outlaw oral sex.

    Example: The Defense of Marriage Act passed in the Senate 84-16, with similar percentages in the House, two years before the possibility of a same-sex marriage ever existed, as an insurance plan against Hawai'i legalizing such things. President Clinton actively signed the bill into law, despite the fact that he actively campaigned in support of the gay community, and that their support contributed to his election in the first place. Why? His spokespeople came forward, after he signed, and said that they felt it would've been political suicide for him to veto, and just as bad for him to let it become law without his signature, because he couldn't afford to alienate the religious voters. Four percent of the population is gay, and less than half of them are registered to vote. Thirty-one percent of Americans describe themselves as "devoutly Christian", and I suspect well over half of them are registered voters. You tell me who has more political power.

    There are some states that outlaw oral sex. Twenty-six states (at my last counting) still ban homosexual sex between consenting adults above the age of consent despite their admitted inability to enforce such laws. Montana tried recently (1995) to make homosexuals register on their "published state sex offenders" list, the registry that lets the public find out if a convicted rapist or pedophile has moved in next door. Adultery is a crime in some states, though not in all. Prostitution is legal in only one state, Nevada, and even then only outside of city limits. The laws regarding sex are such a painful mish-mash of misinformation and religious interference that it's a wonder some state hasn't yet mistakenly outlawed procreation.

    Getting the internet involved only makes the matter worse. We couldn't get rational laws before the internet. This just adds one more level of insecurity and paranoia. The two big laws created so far to "protect decency online" were made, not after careful consideration, but as knee-jerk responses to the fears of a vocal minority that happens to be a large voting bloc.
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