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Learning About Genetic Engineering On The Net 144

Norm asks: "How does one use the WWW to learn about the current and future state of the human genome project, corporate research into potential genetic manipulation of humans, and human Genetic Engineering in general? This is a subject, that while touched upon in the news and exploited in popular culture (e.g., the film 'Gattaca'), does not receive the fact-based, in-depth coverage it deserves. Right now, we are facing a serious social, political and philosophical dilemma: what happens when those of us in our 20s-30s are in our 70s-80s, and the new generation of people are genetically enhanced super-humans? Ideas? Pointers?"
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Learning About Genetic Engineering On The Net

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    i work with a collective of activist folk on the biotechnology action network (ban) website. the ban site reports on current developments in biotechnology (from a social/political/ecological) standpoint with a focus on the direct action that activists are using to fight companies like monsanto. we cover the national and international movement with special attention paid to actions such as crop pulling. http://tao.ca/~ban hope this is useful denny at denny@tao.ca
  • I agree completely, but would add one point: why are we so arrogant to believe that in one generation we can solve what thousands of years of natural evolution could not? There's a very, very, very good reason why we are not all super-intelligent. There's a similarily good reason why some of us are female and others male. Imagine if a society wanted all males due to their "desirable" traits in society. Well, you don't need to imagine: it's called China and it's a problem that is reaching biblical proportions. :(

    There are, unfortunately, more examples. I fear that we will likely play with this proverbial fire and burn ourselves. I hope it doesn't kill us.

  • Most of the sequencing has been done by academic
    groups which puts all of the sequences on the
    net. Outside of a billion CGTAs around,
    its going to take a few decades to figure
    them out. I believe there a dozen fully
    sequence species out there- all single cells,
    except for a worm and a plant.
    Dozens more are being sequenced, with two mammals
    to come on line within a year or two (human, mouse).
  • Not all that far off.
    Genetic chemistry projects are fairly routine
    at high school science fairs.
  • OK, I'll admit that there are a good number of technologies that started out peaceful and became violent, but atomic energy is not really one of them. Before the Manhattan Project got rolling, there was nearly no research being done on it at all, and it was really not nearly far along enough to do anything practical with it at all. They went straight to the Bomb, and only later did they turn it from a weapon of mass destruction into something to make electricity.

    There are other examples of this. GPS and space travel come to mind.
  • In 1995 I used to read alt.bio.hacking. It contained a lot of useful debate and info for non-geneticists. I remember reading there that if good genes could be copyrighted, then a couple might get sued for copyright infringement just by having a healthy baby, a meme that has accompanied me since then.

    With the advent of the *Earn $$$!!!!* and *How do I hack my BIOS?* crowds, alt.bio.hacking languished and disappeared (at least from the Spanish feeds I read). I have not been able to find an archive (and my own one perished in the Big Disk Drive Meltdown of 1996). If anyone reading this knows where to find old alt.bio.hacking posts, I think they would be a valuable addition to this thread.
  • What will happen if you have two largely polarized groups of people.. and then you bring them together suddenly? Any history book past page 20 will tell you a bad-ass "war to end all wars" style conflict will break out, there will be large casualties, and lots of pain and suffering because both sides think they're "right". There is no right in these situations.. only wrong. We have not evolved yet enough to dispense with physical violence as a tool to promote change...

    And it's also unclear that we ever will. Violence may be the last resort of the incompetent but, as long as we have incompetents around, you had better be prepared to meet violence with violence or else there will only be incompetents left on the planet. Rational people usually can work their way around disagreements. The problem is that our current politico-judicial system encourages irrational behaviour by letting people believe that they can evade responsibility for their actions if they are operating under some disadvantage.

    I'd just as soon we keep genetic engineering to the non-sentient lifeforms until we know more about it. I mean, the last thing we need is to engineer a "super" human which is not backwards-compatible with the current generation. Flip over to Star Trek TNG's story about how generically engineering an immune system to be "perfect" had the unfortunate side-effect of killing it's predecessors (namely, us) because of an unforseen variable: a normally harmless genetic virus for an example. I can think of more - science fiction is replete with these examples. I would say to anyone thinking seriously about this issue to spend some time at the library.. and some time in a movie theatre.

    Sorry but your appeal to authority is stretching my sense of disbelief to the snapping point when your "authority" is Star Trek. I mean when physicists talk about "Star-Trek physics", it's rarely with a positive tone. I remember when the infamous ST:TNG "Nanite" episode came out, the reaction in sci.nanotech was less than complimentary. I'm kind of reminded of a comment I read once from a scientist or science fiction author who said it was a bit surprising to find that a lot of the super-science they read in the 40's pulps as a kid was misleading or complete fantasy when they learned real science in school. Star Trek science is a little better researched so that it sounds more accurate, but sometimes it's no more based in truth than those 40's pulps. I think it was Robert J. Sawyer (or maybe Charles Sheffield) who said in a couple of his books' prologues that he bends some scientific facts to be able to present a better story. Star Trek often completely ignores the facts. It makes for a good story (well, at least with the original series) but its a pretty poor basis for a scientific argument.

    And don't think for a minute that viruses won't take advantage of the host's "improved immume systems" - even if the new super-humans aren't hostile towards the existing generation we're still stuck with the problem of viruses which will more rapidly attack and infect people with less of an immune system (path of least resistance - plant a tree in a sunny spot, plant another in a dark spot, which one uses more of the soil's resources?)...

    Huh? Are you implying the viruses will take advantage of bugs in the replacement "immune system"? It sounds like you are instead arguing that the presence of superhumans will mandate the existence of superbugs. I think this shows some misunderstanding of how resistance builds up in pathological organisms. Bacteria resistant to penicillin have evolved because penicillin was being prescribed for everything. People would demand antibiotic prescriptions from their doctors for viruses, or take old prescriptions whose potency had dropped. The same thing happened with spraying insecticide and other pest toxins. They went into the environment, got diluted, and the low toxicity levels allowed some pests to evolve a resistance though repeated exposure to low levels of the toxin. How can you compare this to a super-immune system? So the existing bugs will prefer to attack the people who are unmodified. Hey, that's the whole point of improving the immune system!!! It doesn't mean you're going to wind up with a super bug. You're more likely to get the modified humans to insist that if you get the immune system upgrade, that you get the full immune package, rather than a "budget" upgrade to prevent viruses from evolving a stepped response, first to the less effective system, and eventually to the full immune upgrade.

    We are messing with things far above and beyond our comprehension. I hate to say it, but I very nearly side with the conservative elements in our society on this - this is a matter best left to God. For now, anyway. The other sciences have not caught up enough to have enough of a base of knowledge to anticipate what will happen if we start changing genes. Trial and error is NOT an option for human experimentation.

    I think somebody else said it best. We are messing with things far beyond YOUR comprehension. If your understanding is based on Star Trek science, this isn't surprising. That said, I certainly agree there are big dangers to this research. But I think a problem is more likely to occur because some grad student is being seriously exploited by a prof, or some private researcher by his boss. It's pretty stupid to demand or expect ethical behaviour from researchers if they work in a system which fails to treat them ethically.

    Sorry, but Sig11's response does not deserve the three karma points it currently has.

  • like any good system admin we should plan well before making any configuration to the system. Trail and error is not an option for experimenting with humans (stole that one from another post). what if we modify our genome and somehow end up like some zombie race like the borg? and try to completely assimulate others because we think that the modify version of humans are better than the old version.

    and how do you define what is human? would future generations see themselves as superior to humans? will we see the extinction of humans and from the ashes a new breed of intelligent creatures?

    there will of course be non stop religious debate over the use of this technology. stuff like "if we modify ourselves we will be messing with the devine image of god" or something like that. but soon enough people will start accepting the use of this technolgy.

    will any of the "super humans" have psychological effects from being severed from their race? would they wonder about what they would of been if they were not breed to be good at a particular task? will geniuses still be admired for their talents or will they be used for experimentation to impove the techniques for increasing intelliect?

    it's interesting that a slashdot reader asking to be enlightened about the facts of genetic-engineering ended up getting nothing but philosophical ideas about the future. i guess not much people on slashdot knows about biology. if anybody knows the techniques used for genetic research and ideas about HOW modifying genes is done i'd like to hear it.
  • By far the most clueful work on the future of human genetic engineering is that of Gregory Stock at UCLA Medical, who organized the first "Engineering the Human Germline Symposium".
    http://www.ess.ucla.edu/huge/gregory.html
    http://www.ess.ucla.edu/huge/report.html

    Greg also gives insightful interviews and talks on what is really coming, and when, which in his opinion is soon. Doing a search on his name will bring up a list of these. He also wrote an sf book, "Metaman: The Merging of Humans and Machines into a Global Superorganism". He is one of those rare people who can both interact highly successfully with mainstream science and also communicate well with the public.
  • Sorry, that's my roommate. I laugh at his stupidty. In a tribute to his pea brain, I will forever use the sig:

    I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm sure it means something...

    -John
    I eat dog. Free DVDs [opendvd.org]. Horray!
  • Please, moderators, verify this before you mark it down. He may be right (In fact, the post was well worded enough so that there's a good chance of it)
    He/She did not include a link, so there's no harm in leaving his comment open to debate right now.

    I'm just afriad of knee-jerk moderation.

    A) Browse at -1 when moderating
    B) Moderate up more than down.
    C) Comments which are critical of common slashdot views are often more valuable to the discussion than the standard /. responce.

    I wish I was a moderator right now so I could return his comment to the standard discussion.

    I eat dog. Free DVDs [opendvd.org]. Horray!
  • I was not able to find any information on an possible affiation microsoft has with the Human Genome project. I searched Microsoft, Google, and a human genome site.

    I eat dog. Free DVDs [opendvd.org]. Horray!
  • "How does one use the WWW to learn about the current and future state of the human genome project"
    http://www.google.com/search?q=Hu man+Genome+Project [google.com] would seem like a good place to start. Where have you tried?

    Without wishing to sound like an old fart from comp.lang.c++, it is hard to answer such a vague question. What do you want to know? Where have you looked? What have you found so far?

    This is an important area, clouded with difficult legal issues and sparkling with neat science (keep mixing those metaphors), but there are a lot of resources out there for study. Go and do some research. Then tell us what you think. Then we'll discuss it.

  • "Computational Molecular Biology" aka "Bioinformatics" is the making of algorithms used to study genetic codes. I am currently taking a class on this subject, some of the professor's lecture notes [ohiou.edu] are available online in Powerpoint format. Here are some of the resources I learned to use in this class:

    Codon Usage Database [kazusa.or.jp]
    DNA is encoded as a series of nucleotides (G,A,T,C), but interpereted in groups of three, called "codons." This is a database of the frequencies of all 4^3 combinations for various species.

    Info on Blast and FastA [unimelb.edu.au]
    We can also compare the genomes of various species to see how similar they are. The above link is a short description of how two of the major programs work, BLAST (Basic Local Alignment Search Tool) and FastA (not an acroynm). There's some theoretical background on genome sequence comparison on Dr. Just's page.

    If you want use BLAST to search for for things with similar genomes, just grab your favorite chunk of DNA and take it on down to the BLAST homepage [nih.gov] at the NCBI, and let it search for chunks of DNA that are similar.
    Don't know any gene sequences for you favorite organism? Then head to NCBI [nih.gov] and type its scientific name into the "Search GenBank" box at the top.

    If you're tired of this computer stuff, learn how actual DNA is scanned onto microarrays [washington.edu] for analysis. Or, better yet, learn to build your own [stanford.edu]!

    (And to think I was browsing Slashdot because I wanted to take a break from studying this.)

  • Genetic engineering? GMO's?

    Greenpeace site about genetic engineering [greenpeace.org]


    "Terminator seeds(tm)", anyone?
  • 1) Pesticides and "improvements" genetically grown into foods, which is allready being done. 60% of soy in the US is gen'ed which is consumed by cattle and other farm animals and get into meat/eggs with unknown side affects. "Newleaf"potatos, carrots and "Bt-corn" in the USA are grown with a buildt in toxin to kill or keep bugs away. This has a few side effects:

    1a)Super bugs, bugs that evolve and can withstand no matter what you throw at them and can live in extreme locations. Affects and termination of none targeted insects such as butterflies and bees(the ones that pollinate...) 1b)Mass toxic ground leakage, the toxins in large amount leak into the ground making the soil unuseable

    2)There is almost Zer0 regulation on this stuff and no long term testing.

    3)Hyper plants cross pollonate with an oragnic farmers crop. Later on scientists find the hyper plant is bad but it is to late and has spread to all crops.

    In the FAR future....

    4)Gen-foods evolves into nano-bot technologie 4a)terrorists hack the nano-bots to kill crops and get into your intestional tract and...

    Ahh I almost sound like a tree hugger, just some thoughts I have been pondering about this topic lately but there is one thing to remeber "You are what you eat"

    -Kris

  • Uh, have you even tried to use a search engine?

    Try clicking here here. [yahoo.com]

    -p.

  • why are we so arrogant to believe that in one generation we can solve what thousands of years of natural evolution could not?

    Natural selection is not based on what the species want, it is based on what the species needs for optimum long term breeding. Using contraception is in some ways just as arrogant as genetic engineering. Sex was made fun and very desirable to make us breed, yet we put on a condom or take the pill, and play. DNA does not care about the individual, just spreading the genes, we are just the vessel.
    We as both a species and as individuals, have different goals to natural selection.
    Natural selection would have us breeding until we killed the planet (as would the pope for that matter!).
    We have evolved to take control. That is our evolutionary 'gift', we are the toolmaker. IMHO, all our technology and uses of it are natural, as we have evolved naturally to be like this.
    ---
    Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves.
    -George Gordon Noel Byron (1788-1824), [Lord Byron]

  • . . .I'd be happy. I'd be very pleased if the only improvement I could get out of all this would be a "photographic" memory. The rest (my physical health, etc) I'd take care of myself.

    As to genetically enhanced superbeings, I think it's kind of inevitable, and I really don't know how it can be avoided. Even if the USA banned such things as "immoral," the US is not the world. Other nations--China springs prominently to mind--may have other ideas. And I personally have no problems at all with the idea of improving the human race by jacking up physical strength/intelligence to the optimum levels while adding an open-ended life span on to boot. This IMOHO would be an overall boon to humanity, though as with most solutions to problems it will likely come with it's own set of unforeseen drawbacks.

  • >That way when someone is born (no wait not born, made) like that and they happen to be insane they are an ultra-intelligent and nearly >unstoppable psychopath bent on killing everyone they see for sport. See how much of an "overall boon to humanity" it is then.

    Been watching TERMINATOR 2 again, have we? Or perhaps too much anime. ^_^

    Greater risks will bring about greater safeguards against said risks. The kind of thing you're worried about would likely be one of the situations the governments/corporations involved with the genome project would be trying to guard against; it's the *unintended* consequences of genetic engineering--the things we won't realize until they actually happen--that concern me. Still, I say again--I am not at all opposed to genetic tweaking to improve the Race, to bring it to it's optimum physical/mental potential. I believe that it's a great idea, and see nothing wrong with it.

  • We proudly watch them, and wish them the best... They will after all be OUR children!
  • Damn, I don't have time to hunt down the links right now, but maybe somebody will read this and add them. But there are at least 2 companies in the US that are working on proto-types for a commercial vehicle that would fit the description of many sci-fi 'flying cars'. From what I have seen, the technology (and cost) is not the big roadblock, it's the regulation of who will be able to own/operate one and where.
  • What is the worst possible outcome of a technology and what are the best possible results attainable?

    Well, is the possible annihilation of mankind as we know it, a bad thing?
  • Natural selection would have us breeding until the natural balance of things was too far out of wack and then 'Nature' would create something to either wipe out a large portion of our population (like the plague) or decrease the amount of our breeding. It has been only the last 150-200 years that (since the advent of modern medicine, and when man decided he could [and should?] fix all the ills of the world) that human over-population has ever been an issue.
  • We can start be removing genetic diseases. That's something pretty straightforward and few would object. But "won't get sick" isn't quite "superhuman".

    I, for one, would (and do) object to the removal of genetic diseases. How can you say that not getting sick is not 'superhuman'? How many people have you known in your lifetime that never got sick? Probably zero.

    Sorry folks, but when it comes down to it, all living things on this planet (and any others) are part of the food-chain somewhere - we are all meant to die, some of us earlier than others. When will we realize that death is part of the process of life and by prolonging life we are really doing more harm to ourselves as a species, than good? My fear is we won't until it's too late =(
  • Ever think this is Natual Selection telling us we've gotten too smart for our own good?
  • It is a bunch of interdependent traits that have been optimized by evolution for a certain environment.

    Uh-oh. You mentioned the "E" word. I predict a horde of wacko creationists to come swarming down on this topic... :/

    "E" word or "C" word, it's a valid point. That sentence could be rewritten to read, "It is a bunch of interdependent traits that have been optimized by the Creator for a certain environment." and it holds the same underlying meaning.

  • Prehensile dreadlocks
    Retractible claws / fangs(?)
    Phosphorescent teeth
    Opposable toes
    Camo Skin
    Nocturnal Vision
    Hollow Bones
    Wingflaps (like flying squirrels)
    Adrenaline control
    Dislocating Jaw
    Gills
    Photographic Memory
    Yoga Fire
  • Genetic engineering has a lot of good intentions, especially with medicinal uses. But this isn't the only use. There's also a great propensity for things like genetic enhancements and irreparable mistakes.

    Genetic enhancements don't seem bad at first glance, because it would be very cool to increase your child's IQ or height by just changing a few codons around. But this has consequences that society might not be able to deal with. First, it has the potential for stratifying society. Affluents will have great opportunity to get these enhancements whereas the impoverished will have very little chance. As a result, we get a soceity where the rich not only have more money, but also can be smarter, stronger, better looking, etc. This creates a bad standard for society if we want to still adhere to principles of equality or equal opportunity. But secondly, social coercion becomes factor when some people start using genetic engineering. It'll become harder and harder for individuals to compete with those who are enhanced genetically. This, in turn, pressures parents to use genetic engineering on their children if they want to give them a fighting chance to survive in today's competitive society.

    Of course, things like social stratification and social coerion aren't unique to genetic engineering at all. But there's no other technology that actually changes the people themselves in such a way that it passes down one's genetic legacy. This actually creates another problem with genetic engineering-- the possibility of damaging the human gene pool.

    Once society starts eliminating all of the "bad" genes, genetic variety is drastically reduced. It sounds nice to be able to have a society without genes that cause cancer or cystic fibrosis, but the elimination of these genes can have negative effects. Without the sickle-cell anemia gene, individuals lose resistance to malaria. Likewise, the heterozygous trait for cystic fibrosis provides immunity to typhoid fever. Granted, genetic engineering could always put these genes back in with gene machines and gene splicing. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho wrote that "correct attempts at gene therapy are uniformly unsuccessful and are already posing unacceptable hazards for patients. At least 22 new germ-line mutations arise in each person [during germ-line therapy]." This might not be something we want to risk.

    If we want to weigh the abuse and the intended purpose of genetic engineering, we should look at the consequences of both. Regardless of the way we use genetic engineering, there will be repercussions that we'll have to live with.
  • Everything I've worked with in the past year has been full of tradeoffs.

    Every science has limits that lead back conservation principles.

    Some examples:
    Cache RAM: associativity
    If assoc goes up hit time goes down miss penalty goes up.

    Classic time vs space: The faster the program the the bigger the file unless it's badly designed.

    Badly designed code: Code structure accssible to bad designers. More overhead though.

    You'd have to be superficial fascist fuck to think genetics is going to be free of these problems. Heck we're fucking up even without genetics. Look at Columbine a couple of drugged up kids blew up a high school. Big surprise.

    It ain't the technology that is the the problem. It's us.

  • Spaniards land on Western Hemisphere. Narive tribes die because of lack of immunity. Nuff said.
  • This is a regular book, not in the Internet, but I found it pretty easy to read and informative:

    Understanding DNA and Gene Cloning - A Guide for the Curious, by Karl Drlica

    It does not require much knowledge of biology, and it is probably quite accessible for the average Slashdot reader. It is still scientifically substantial, though, and I found it very helpful in learning to understand biology better.

  • Okay, let's look at that statement for a minute:

    "We are facing a serious social, political and philosophical dilemma: what happens when those of us in our 20s-30s are in our 70s-80s, and the new generation of people are genetically enhanced super-humans?"

    Now, what this boils down to is 'I'm concerned that someone will have access to an advantage I can't get at'. Just how did you come to this conclusion?

    The current 'easy way' to engineer an organism is to work on germ line and embyonic cells, but 'gene therapy' on _mature_ animals is going on too. When developed to a useable technology, which one (only yet-to-be-born kids or _all_ humans) do you think would be more profitable. I'd say the wider number of applications and more possible customers would push (and is pushing) research into the ability to introduce new traits to anyone at any time in their life.

    Of course the next comment down the line would be: "But...but...it would only be available for the RICH!". If this occured to you, then geez, don't you plan on being rich in your life? And what technology didn't start out so rare that it was 'only available for the rich' whether it's cars or computers or cancer treatment? Again, that gleaming gem of additional customers should push the technology and the price down; a kind of 'model T' of gene therapy.

    Now, if you're going to start telling me that humans "shouldn't be allowed" to do this. Deal with it. It's my code. Myself. My existence. I will develop myself as I choose.
  • While 'Gattaca' takes one view (the 'new' will be the next generation), Bruce Sterling wrote a corollary: "_Holy Fire_," (http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.as p?theisbn=055357549X)...essentially, his proposition is that the technology will have great costs initially, that the only folks that can take advantage of this technology therefore are the Rich and folks over 40 who have made their nut; so, relax, if it comes and you have the money, it'll be you, not your grandkids who can take advantage of it.

    For a happier take, though, try The Happy Mutant Handbook, also by Sterling (as editor, with others).

    Some thoughts from a group of thinkers (although mostly mechanistic): http://www.well.com/conf/mirrorshades/

    Finally, Freeman Dyson (different definition of 'life,' -try 'cosmic'- but optimistic, nonetheless at http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/dyson.txt; and Dyson's book "_The Sun, the Genome, and the Internet : Tools of Scientific Revolutions_," (http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.as p?theisbn=0195129423).

    Personally, while I share Dyson's optimism, long-term, I believe, with Sterling, that the short-term beneficiaries of any 'bio-revolutions' will be the old and the rich, with the acompanying resentment and political and social fallout that will bring.

    Remember, no ethnic group will be the true majority in the future, divisions will be based more on age and wealth (both real and 'derived (Social Security, Medicare)').

  • www.ornl.gov/TechResources/Human_Genome/

    Japanese mirror at: http://genome.rtc.riken.go.jp/hgmis/

    and, yes I _did_ do a search on the posts...didn't find/see it!!!

  • Very interesting topic. I haven't heard anyone mention what happened about 60 years ago when someone tried to create the "super human." Heres the scary part: There are still *alot* of people out there who think Hitler was right, and are keeping his "legacy" alive. People like this are around, and they will create anything they can to attain the goals that they have set.

    Here are the facts: We still live in a world where killing is not seen as wrong. We live in a world where the largest "corporate sponsor" of the UN (america, of course), does not follow 25% of the rights outlined in the UN's Universal Decloration of Human Rights. We live in a world where people kill eachother over thoughts and beliefs, and people don't seem to care. More facts: Most of the world (>80%) would *never* even consider these genetic modifications simply because of their religon. And probably less than one percent of the population in the world would even be able to afford it.

    If people would take the time to learn from history, and sit down and think of the possible reprocussions: biologically, politically, whatever, this world would be a much better place. I realize that it will be made available, and people will do it anyway, but c'mon, a Gattica world? Please. We need to think more before we act, and understand the technology and the reprocussions. We have burnt over 65% of the world's petrolium resources, just straight out burnt it. They will all be gone within 100 years, gas should be $20/gallon! We need to think more before we act, thats all I am saying. Scary stuff.

    -----------------------------------------
    I want to know god's thoughts, the rest are just details.

  • The current experimentation in Gene Therapy is attempting to correct genetic defects in people only in their somatic cells, not germline cells. Thus if your diabetes was corrected and you have a kid, your kid will still be as likely to have diabetes as with the genetic modification.

    Germline modifications are another thing altogether. Scientists current can modify mouse germlines and have made thousands of genetically modified mice, the typical experiment is to delete a gene, creating a mouse knockout for that gene. The scientists then see what effect the deletion has on the mouse and in this way try to discover the function of the genes. The ability to do similar things with humans became possible with the isolation of human embryonic stem cells in the last year or two. It is currently illegal in the US to make germline modifications in humans but I suspect somebody, somewhere will start trying. Given that it will take a about 16 years per experiment (100 years for any thorough expt). We can expect germline genetic enhancements to be a long way off. I think its likely that people will experiment with mice to enhance them and then try to apply equivalent changes in humans. None the less we are a really long way from having genetically enhanced humans.

    Genetically modified crops are much more of a real and present danger as germline modified crops are being released into the environment currently. Although it is possible that these genetic modifications will significantly upset the natural balance, humans are upsetting the balance in other more profound ways (pollution, agriculture etc)

    Postulate: Any intelligent species that discovers how it is wired will ultimately modify itself. I think this is a natural step in evolution.

    We can ban it in the US but there is nothing to stop anybody in other countries from doing this. It will happen.
  • Careful when you use the Greenpeace site for anything more than hysteria. Many of their articles have uncited references, and seem to be very sensationalized.
    Their Arctic story is one of them. I have many friends who are involved in the "other" side of their debate. The facts they give out on the situation do not jive with what has happened up here.
  • The problem with genetic enhancements is that it increases the idea of perfection. Sure strength and immunity are beneficial, but what about when we start curing depression or ADD? When are they not the same person?

    Advocates will tell you that it is their "soul" that makes someone who they are, but that is just religious preaching. And when the southern baptists start genetically engineering their followers to be more like Jesus, the rest of us will have to as well in order to compete.

    I'm not saying that technology is bad, jus that we need to be careful as it gives more validation for the future Hitlers.

  • ...there is no intelligence gene. There is no tall gene. There is no smart gene. There are combinations of thousands of different polymorphic loci that will yield these phenotypic traits.

    This is trivially true in that there are thousands of genes required for us to live, and without them we won't be tall or smart; we'll be dead.

    However, it's entirely unclear at the present time exactly how many genes are responsible for traits that are apparently polygenic. Or, more importantly for this discussion, it isn't clear how many genes one would need to change in order to enhance a trait in question.

    Thousands is likely much too pessimistic. After all, we only have a hundred thousand genes or so. I doubt that it requires 1% of our entire genome simply to specify how tall we are. But whether it is hundreds or dozens or a few, it's still a more difficult problem than we know how to solve right now (even with handy tricks like linkage disequilibrium).

  • Have a look at http://theopenlab.uml.edu/
    It might be interesting for some of you.
  • We all know not to let suspicious programs to execute on uor PCs, lest we get viruses. How could you trust a "memory & intelligence enhancer" pill also not carry political opinions or some sort of dependency thing that made you want more and more of those pills, at an ever increasign rate?
  • I'm curious as to where you got these facts.

    What rights are not followed by the USA that are listed in the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    Who and where is the source of 65% of the world's petrolium resources have been used fact?

  • Farmers & ranchers have been 'engineering' their products for centuries: breeding the best of the herd; cross breeding for desirable qualities; even growing the fruiting part of one plant on the root stock of another.

    Genetic technology is limited to moving genes (at best) from one species to another, so modern 'genetically engineering' of foods is really just a fast, accurate method of selective breeding.

  • Please don't waste our time with questions like this.
  • Super Humans? Genetic Engineering? The new GE oven...it's all so much!!! All i'm saying is we can put a man on the moon but we can't make a realdoll [realdoll.com] that does laundry?? wtf!!


    -FluX
    -------------------------
    Your Ad Here!
    -------------------------
  • You fail to understand evolution, success in society is not a measure in this playing field. The only measure is having more children that survive to breed. Currently people that are sucessful in our society tend to have fewer children so in fact we are currently winnowing out the very factors that you believe in.

    Actually, in my example, it was the unsuccessful in society who were evolving, not the successful.

    Having much harsher living conditions (due to poverty and discrimination), and facing stiff competition from those who can afford to genetically modify their kids, these unmodified people will have to adapt and yes, evolve to survive.

    And simply evolving higher rates of fertility won't help, since in most of these cases, resources such as food may be scarce for these people, putting these kids in direct competition with their own siblings. Which means that any beneficial mutations that give one kid an edge in outcompeting his brethren will be the ones passed on to future generations.

    Any harmful genetic traits will disappear from this gene pool through natural selection so quickly that after a while you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the genes of an unmodified person and a genetically engineered one, except that the latter might show the disturbing regularity that marks most artificial things.

    So, after several generations, we've got two groups, the genetially modified people, who show a disturbing homogenity and very little genetic variety, and the genetically unmodified, who have been evolving to the point where they could compete with the artificial people if they were given a fair chance.

    But, being in power, the modified people would continue to discriminate (and due to centuries of systematic discrimination, the modified people would control nearly all the world's resources, or at least whatever resources are left), forcing the unmodified to evolve even more.

    At this point, the genetically modified folks would have two major problems:

    • They've got hordes of natural people who are royally pissed at them. Of course, eventually governments (whether national or corporate) will try to send their armies of genetically-pumped supermen to genocidally eradicate them, and they'd be left bewilderedly wondering how their "invincible" soldiers keep getting beaten by these primitive bands of urban guerrillas.
    • Also, these genetically modified folks would have sacrificed a lot of the variety in their gene pool, meaning that if there's any major genetic crisis, they'd be screwed, and possibly extinct.
    Of course, all this leaves the natural folks to reclaim their planet, and salvage the wreckage of the shining civilization to which they were denied entry for so long.

    So, all in all, assuming we don't destroy ourselves, I think that this whole genetic engineering thing could have a net positive effect on humanity. ;->

    --

  • I predict something like "Logan's Run". 8^) That's Darwin for ya.

    Yea, but Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn would be much cooler. :)

  • The potential for abuse in technology use was evident the first time a human crushed his rival's brains with a stone axe.

    However, we must compare abusive vs. intended use. What is the worst possible outcome of a technology and what are the best possible results attainable? How likely is each scenario? Is it worthwhile? I have been thinking really hard about that and couldn't come with one single instance where the abusive use of a technology appears to be worse than the good results.

  • "Computational Molecular Biology" aka "Bioinformatics" is the making of algorithms used to study genetic codes

    Just want to point out that computational biology and bioinformatics are not the same thing. Bioinformatics is what you're talking about with studying genetic codes, but computational biology is more along the lines of protein folding, modeling 3D structures of ribozymes, etc. It's less abstract, dealing more with predictive modeling based on actual experimentally-derived biological parameters. Don't take my word on this (I'm only a neuroscientist), but that's my understanding of it.
  • it isn't clear how many genes one would need to change in order to enhance a trait in question. Thousands is likely much too pessimistic.

    When I said "thousands" I didn't mean to imply quantitative accuracy, but also keep in mind I was not saying thousands of GENES, but thousands of polymorphic loci. That's my whole point, that phenotypes are based less on absolute presence or absence of particular genes than on their relative levels of expression (and different levels in different cell types, at different times, etc.). And each gene involved is likely to have several different combinations of promoter polymorphisms, enhancers in the introns of neighboring genes, apparently non-functional coding region polymorphisms that affect degradation or complexing of the protein with something bizarre you'd never expect, or whatever. I don't work that closely with this stuff, but someone who did could probably rattle on for pages. The problem is not unsolvable in principle, only in practice. I'm just saying that it's a LOT more complex than people outside of biology are usually aware of.
  • There is a site with alot of the genetically engineered material you are looking for. I understand that they are doing a feature topic on Genetics in the next few weeks. Check their links. goto [healthi.com]
  • Hallelulah, Gimme Five, Kudos, etc. etc.!

    As a BioNerd I couldn't agree more. Slashdot has great coverage of Linux, Patents, etc. but everytime biology is brought up I get hazy visions of 1980's OMNI articles.

    The inverse fuzzy, meaningless Bionerd to Compunerd question would be something like this:

    How do I use the WWW to learn about Electrical Engineering? Electrical Engineering is undoubtedly going to change the world in the years to come. Movies like 2001, Hackers, and You've Got Mail examine these thorny issues, but do not go into the details of how these technologies operate. I have gone to my local BD Dalton and could not find any Electrical Engineering texts. The web searches for "+electrical +engineering +cyborg +tyranny" did not yield any detailed info.

    (Seriously, check out the links of the above poster for more information, but if you really want to learn more, get a textbook from the local U and read the relevant chapters. Most first or second year genetics texts are fairly informative, if not as up to date. Knowing the stats of how many genes are sequenced without knowing what a gene is doesn't do you much good. The web is not the best place to start.)

  • I guess in the interests of fairness it's good to post a link to Greenpeace here. I mean, why not trust information from people who dress up as "ears of corn with scorpion pincers" to protest against GMO's, and engage in misleading sensationalism (for intance, their adoption of the X-files like "X" logo to summon up visions of scary alien-human hybrids, or government conspiracies, or whatever the hell it is they're trying to do) to further their cause? (is the cause really "protecting us" or is it "collecting donations for Greenpeace") :-)

    That said, Monsanto Sucks!
  • If this is supposed to be "News for Nerds" I should hope that you can get the terminology correct. Its called Molecular Biology. There is no such thing as genetic engineering.
  • Well i do :P And since i doubt he really can see the future, i think ill see the present - right now the only reason scientists are engineering stuff is for research (human genome not even done yet i think) or to make some simple things easier (tomatoes that dont rot as fast and cows that produce more milk). This is all very far from "genetically enhanced super-humans". And i sure hope that will never happen. But if it does something will go horribly wrong (usually happens when people that arent God try to be Him) and we will learn our lesson or all be wiped out by the psychotic body-building geniuses. Reminds me of the Eve episode of The X-Files where they tried to make genetically enhanced humans, and it worked - increased intelligence, increased physical strength, increased psychosis. That last one is the kicker.
  • OF FREAKING COUSE IT WOULD HAVE "unforseen drawbacks"!!! While they give you that increased intelligence and physical strength, why not make some built-in weapons and make our bodies impervious to most forms of damage. That way when someone is born (no wait not born, made) like that and they happen to be insane they are an ultra-intelligent and nearly unstoppable psychopath bent on killing everyone they see for sport. See how much of an "overall boon to humanity" it is then.
  • Can you tell me when there hasn't been social change and prejudice. I'm old enough to have seen dramatic change in the world and young enough to be impressed by it, but I doubt this change will be any worse/better than any other that has ever occurred. Be real people. The great thing about being human is that we adapt.

    Remember: Life is nothing more than a game with serious consequences.
  • With all these dumb teen women sleeping with dumb men, to make legions of dumb childeren who are then raised by the state, therefore sidestepping evolution's natural pressure to breed smarter humans, we're doomed.

    Face it, dumb teen moms will take over the world by out-breeding us smart geeks... and our taxes are paying for their welfare to do so.

    Go figure.
    Hm, perhaps there will still remain an uberclass to run things.
  • Come on, ubermensch! Fear doesn't mean *irrational fear*. I also remember these folks who were a little afraid of nuking Russia. If NATO had a little balls, think what we might have learnt about nuclear fallout and self-annihilation.

    Besides, if you believe so much in genetics/biology, surely you believe fear is a survival response. It's amazing how many people simultaneously believe in some kind of dawinian determinism and yet also believe they can just 'jump the queue' by tossing a few bucks into genetics research.

    Famous last words: "Foresight-smoresight! Strap me to the rocket, Jim, I'm gonna show those NASA boys a Mars Mission just requires planetary-size kahunas"
  • ... any time soon? &nbsp I think we've read and watched alot of sci-fi and then try to be pundits in predicting in what direction technology will go. &nbsp How many World's Fairs predicted that there would be flying "cars" and space stations on the moon in our current time (and as we obviously know - none of that has happened)? &nbsp How many stories and shows like Star Trek describe stuff like "Eugenics Wars" (which according to ST's fictional timeline, was supposed to have happened between genetically-enhanced "super humans" and everyone else in 1996?). &nbsp How many of you have videophones (that have been out since the '60s)?

    Bottom line - the industry (whether genetic or other technology-based) is market and money-driven. &nbsp When the market is viable, then the product gets put out there. &nbsp You can expect alot of medical-related, genetically derived products (and the food products are already available) but genetically "enhanced" humans are some time off. &nbsp Sure "test tube" babies have become more common and sure, there will always be corporations out there who will experiment and will probably "create" such a genetically-enhanced "human" (would they then be "human" if artificially created - but that's a side issue), but the morality discussions (and indeed, sci-fi stories extrapolating the consequences) may serve to drive the whole issue into a direction unforeseen by us at this time.

  • You don't think that enhanced human ability isn't a viable market? PLEASE!!

    If you look at the current underground "body part", ie., organ donor "market", you will only see a tiny percentage who have the funds to participate in such a thing - let alone participate in a venture like human "enhancement" (and when I say "human enhancement", I mean - a totally engineered "human" - not necessarily genetic enhancement to cure a medical defect or for cosmetic purposes). &nbsp "PCs" are a "viable market" because the "average" consumers now have the ability to afford them, particularly in the "used" marketplace. &nbsp But a marketplace that might produce entire "societies" of disparate, genetically-enhanced super humans who would wage war on the rest of us - I just don't see any time soon.

    And let me clarify my thoughts on this - genetic "super humans" will happen, but not in the forseeable future. &nbsp It is an idealist's view that it would happen sooner (as in this subject's call to those in their 20s to comment on something 50 years from now) but as a pragmatist, I just don't see it, even if the morality issues were somehow reconciled. &nbsp And I'm still waiting for my flying car by the way, even though I know the average person can barely drive in 1 dimension, let alone 3 (which was hillariously illustrated by Bruce Willis (in I think "Event Horizon"). &nbsp I also look forward to warp drive being invented in 2061 although I won't be here to see it... &nbsp ;-)

  • People do NOT want to change

    people don't want to change because they like it the way things are, or are afraid it might get worse. and how do you think it got to be what it is? through change! that said, there's always a few of us who WANT things to change as much as possible (the only way to keep my mind from collapsing out of boredom maybe) and are always trying new things. once these things are "good enough" then everybody else uses it. heck look at the internet....
  • How can we have the power to increase someone's intelligence and not do it?!?!?! that would not make sense. with the current state of the worlds and the species, we need all the smart people we can get!. how to predict the weather, how to extend life, how does the world work, how to have good solid economy not based on someone else's poverty, all these and other questions require a level of intelligence we just don't have...

    after all, i truly believe that the smarter you are the better a person you are. and don't give me the "hitler was smart" crap. As long as intelligence is coupled with good control of your impulses, you're fine. after all probably all ugly things made by smart people weren't intelligent things to do....

    in the end it would be like owning a gun. it gives regular people a huge advantage, but it's not forbidden (not that i like guns though).

    man, if we can improve our species, let's. sure some ugly scenes will show up in the middle, but in the end it'll work out fine.
  • a comment on the articles....

    ==
  • Uh-oh. You mentioned the "E" word. I predict a horde of wacko creationists to come swarming down on this topic... :/
    That aside, just heading off things like Down's syndrome, cerebal palsy, etc. would be nice, though, even if creating "superhumans" is not feasible in the near future. Or how about if we just end male pattern baldness? :)
  • Funny that he was talking about the fear of advancement by our species and you retort with exactly that. FEAR. Where would we be if no one had the guts to see if the world was flat? Space travel to dangerous? Well we wouldn't want to risk a few lives on an already overpopulated planet to have the chance at advancing ourselves now would we?
  • You don't think that enhanced human ability isn't a viable market? PLEASE!! Look at the technology sector. The fastest growing market in history and it's showing no sign of slowing down or creating any less billionares. For the most part it's about productivity and enhancing the human form for increased strength, intellengence, or extension of life would be a pretty big seller if you ask me. I beleive there will be a serious battle over patents. The only issue that will cloud the procedure is morality.
  • How long will it be till they patent the human genome? Then, everyone's genes will by illegal and we'll all have to die, unless we pay of course. --send beer--
  • Here's another site which is being launched tomorrow on genetic privacy and policy in conjunction with a radio call-in show on Oregon Public Broadcasting at 1pm.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Experimentation with the human genome is inevitable, and the question of whether we are ready for such an awesome responsibility that the modification of DNA suggests

    Look at the inevitibale and continual advance of technology. How many people are out there screaming that technology is evil and that it will destroy us all? Not many. Popular opinion seems to think these people are wackos, and ignores them to a large extent. Yet every advance in computer and robotics technology brings us closer to creating a self aware machine. And if the rate of robotic evolution is really millions of times faster than our own as some people claim, it's only a matter of time until our robotic creations are smarter, faster, and stronger than us. How long until a robot decides that the laws of Azimov be damned, it is sick of being told what to do by these stupid humans and goes off and does its own thing (whatever that is)?

    I have heard estimates that by the year 2050 to 2075, Artificial Intelligince gurus will be creating robotic entities nearly equal to our own intelligent. And if moore's law holds up, their processor speed will double in 18 months, making them twice as smart as us a few months later...;->

    Coincedentally, a lot of people have posted that the manipulation of the human genome for our own purposes will only become popular and/or safe in another 2 generations. Assuming a 20 year generation time, that's about 2040. That means that about the time the first batch of new "superhumans" are 10 years old, machines could be reaching their own awakening.

    Supermen vs. Robot-masterminds? Sounds like a cheezy movie. Carbon based life, or silicon based machine-life battle for dominance in this sci-fi thriller. Seriously, though. Evolving ourselves may be the only way to continue to compete and survive against increasingly intelligent machines.

    On another note, we must remember that the human genome only determines potential, not how that potential is used. Without any social evolution, nothing really changes except for the extreme ends of society. We just build things faster, destroy things faster, or evolve smarter car-thieves.

  • I always like to suggest that people who are curious about genetics and molecular biology, but have had no biology since high school, should read "The Cartoon Guide to Genetics" by Wheeler and Gonick. It provides the basic information and definitions required to read more detailed treatments of the subject. And like anything from Gonick, it is pretty amusing as well. While it is a paper book, you could always order it from an on-line bookstore...
  • Might I recommend the National Biotechnology Information Facility [nbif.org] (NBIF)? They maintain a list of ~7,000 links, ranging from the general to the very in-depth. Of particular interest to Slashdot readers may be their listing of FAQs [nbif.org]. Here's a quick listing of catagories from the NBIF site below:

    • Research Tools and Databases [nbif.org] - Web based research-specific tools as well as a list of links to databases broken down into relevant categories.
    • Software [nbif.org] - A list of free software packages that can be downloaded from the web or acquired through other means. The majority of the software packages are related to molecular biology and chemistry while the remaining packages vary from web-authoring to graphics support.
    • Educational Resources [nbif.org] - Instructional materials offered to the public by NBIF, educational sites covering different subjects in science, and resources for teachers to help in their science curriculum.
    • Images and Multimedia [nbif.org] - Repository for a variety of animations, movies, and colorful as well as black-and-white images representing organisms of the five kingdom system. A variety of viruses particular to certain species are listed as well.
    • Journals and Bibliographic Databases [nbif.org] - An immense library of on-line journals covering a broad spectrum of subjects ranging from animal biochemistry to zoology. (Journals may be free, subscription, or offer a trial period.)
    • Legal and Regulatory Links [nbif.org] - Standards and related to biotechnology issues such as patents, permits, trademarks, etc.
    • Conferences, Symposia, and Workshops [nbif.org] - Contains lists of New Mexico State University sponsored workshops and as well as lists of workshops and conferences located around the world. There is also a set of links to sites where calendars of biotechnology events are updated continuously.
    • Career Information [nbif.org] - These links are especially useful for the scientist seeking a job with a biotechnology company. Included is a list of well known biotechnology companies and employment search engines. For the future scientist, there is also general information for a career in the sciences, as well as resources for student employment and scholarships.
    • Industry [nbif.org]- Biotechnology company registers, general industry news, and links to industrial associations.
    • Biotechnology News [nbif.org] - A source of headline news for current research and emerging issues of concern in the biotechnology discipline.
    • Other Resources [nbif.org] - A list of various links to sites containing information on different aspects of biotechnology.
  • Your post reminded me of a story that appeared in Nature [nature.com] (Login Required), in the 3/02/00 issue. For Slashdot readers not familiar with Nature, it is a well-respected science journal (The type with peer-reviewed articles in it).

    What was unique about the article, entitled "Danger -- hard hack area", is that it was a piece of SF that speculated on the future of Biotech and the hacking community. Here's a little excerpt below:

    "Sequence your genome at home, and set science free!" cry the biopunks.

    Many people predicted that VirCon 2010, the first open meeting of the biopunk movement, would end in a riot. In truth, it was as privately exciting and as publicly dull as any science conference. From their besieged underground culture, the clandestine surfers of the new wave in biology are emerging blinking into the daylight and, dare one say, into respectability.

    But VirCon 2010, held in a dilapidated midtown New York hotel, was not without friction. Despite the rule that no biological material could be brought in, there was a ruthless but futile inspection by officers of the Food and Drug Agency. Several people suspected of being undercover federal agents or snoops from biotech companies were summarily ejected, and the press was barred, which led to strange scenes outside the hotel as TV journalists were videoed typing into a laptop to communicate with conference delegates just inside the lobby.

    I was allowed to cover the event from the inside because of personal contacts made while covering the pursuit and arrest of Kevin 'Freaky-Deaky' Miles, the man who claimed to have turned the Amazon rainforest luminescent -- and because I'm a science fiction writer, and biopunks love SF.

    The delegates were mostly young, white males under 25, dressed in everything from baggies and T-shirts, through goth black and multiple piercings, to business suits. All had self-inflicted gene hacks: feathers or scales instead of hair; bands of chromatophores on their foreheads; motile tattoos. And of course, unlike the pasty-faced, overweight cliché of computer hackers, the biopunks were bursting with health, their skin and eyesight perfect, their muscle definition superb, their energy seemingly boundless...


  • why are we so arrogant to believe that in one generation we can solve what thousands of years of natural evolution could not?

    Because natural evolution doesn't reason. Because natural evolution isn't self-aware. Because natural evolution isn't task-oriented. Because natural evolution works in the direction of "whatever is good enough" to survive, not towards the optimal design or the Right Thing.

    My point is: as impressive as it may be that such an arbitrary process as evolution by natural selection has lead to the development of human intelligence, there's no reason to believe that this makes it somehow infallible or perfect or absolute - in other words, there's no good reason to attribute God-like qualities to evolution.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a species wanting to do whatever they want with their own genetic fate.
  • While you're thinking about "genetic manipulation of human beings", you should also learn about the closely related topic of eugenics. I would urge you to learn about the history of eugenics through this century, and the role of eugenic thinking in the Holocaust.
  • Thoughtful discussions (rather than the usual doom and gloom predictions) regarding the consequences of genetic engineering and technological progress in computers, AI, etc. may be found in the Extropy Institute's [extropy.org] Mailing List [extropy.org]. There are many years of discussions in the Archives [lucifer.com].

    Some additional sources of useful information include the The Transhumanist FAQ [transhumanism.org] and the Journal of Transhumanism [transhumanist.com] . The World Transhumanist Association [transhumanism.com] is an umbrella organization for many regional transhumanist groups.

    The people involved in these organizations actively discuss and investigate the many issues and concerns related to our future evolution as a species.
  • The most helpful site that I have found while doing genetics research is the NCBI site at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov [nih.gov]

    This site allows access to the enormous amounts of data generated by genome sequencing projects including the Human Genome Project as well as links to research articles about specific sequences. It is especially helpful when researching specific mutations in genes and proteins and what they do to the organism. The attached OMIM database is a treasure trove of genetic disease information.

    Important parts of the database include the BLAST section, in which you can search for sequence homology given a short stretch of gene or protein. This is very helpful whether you are querying for either protein or gene.

    Another important part is PubMed, which is the place to start for literature searches. Entrez is helpful if you have a specific gene name in mind and want sequence information (genomic sequence, cDNA sequence, protein sequence, and even links to NMR and X-ray structures). LocusLink allows a gene name query to retrieve information about the gene's chromosomal location, alternate names, and related diseases.

    All in all, the NCBI site is the most helpful site for on-line queries about specific genes and the Human Genome Project. The site might not be the best for someone who is looking for ready-made answers; there are few clear-cut answers in genetics right now and this site is good for formulating one's one hypothesis based on the real data. The NCBI site also has a small news section that features some of the more interesting finds.

    Anyway, I help that this and all the other sites being given help!

    Invicta{HOG}

  • was written about by James L. Halperin, titled "The First Immortal."

    Basically, it looks at the human impact of tech from cryonics to gene manipulation and youth recovery. Pretty interesting stuff.

  • If you want to be a superhuman, just eat right and exercise regularly. You will be ahead of most Americans...

    I, for one, am extremely apathetic about the whole issue. So we genetically enhance ourselves. So what. It's not like the rich haven't had the benefit of wealth in eons gone by. We've been enhancing ourselves since we learned to communicate. Clothing, shelter, implements, the internet...it all enhances us one way or another, and /again/ the rich have the benefit. The issue shouldn't be our fascination with every new invention making us "just too godlike"...the issue should be how to level the playing field so EVERYBODY has food, shelter, clothing, and when/if it becomes a necessity, genetic enhancement.

    I'm sure Grog was saying to the other cave people "HEYYYY...hold on here...this whiz-bang 'fire' stuff is really cool...but don't you think this is making us just a /little/ too godlike? I mean, now we can /burn/ ourselves...or set the forest on fire!".
  • I grew up in a farm town, where I was about the weakest kid in school. So what's new?

    And what's new for most of the readers of slashdot, eh? YOU remember being hazed by the Jocks, the socialite cliques, and every kid who looked more WASP - or more like the local adult power structure members - than you did, don't you?

    Even if you're in the top couple percentile of intelligence now there are already millions smarter than you, and lots more who have learned advantageous techniques that you haven't.

    Genetic "upgrading" - if it WORKS - will be just a change in degree, not a binary "Supermen vs. the Mud People".

    Meanwhile (as has already been pointed out), tampering with a complex system like the human organism takes a lot of trial-and-error, and the generations are long. The first iteration will no doubt be the easy, sure things: eliminating well-defined genetic diseases, selecting sex and hair/skin/eye colors. Later maybe improved teeth, elimination of more subtle genetic diseases (obesity, receptor-mediated high cholesterol), selecting on well-defined appearance items like overbite fat storage distribution.

    But even the easy stuff can be risky - as the NAZIs found out when their breed-more-blond-haired-blue-eyed-Arian-Supermen program produced thousands of new phenylketonuriacs - blond haired, blue eyed, and with varying amounts of brain damage, depending on the amount of phenylalenine in their childhood diets. (Perhaps this is part of the origin of the "dumb blonde" stereotype?)

    Tampering with the brain is going to take a lot more research before one can expect the results to have a significant chance of improving, rather than harming the function. And once it's done in earnest, the result might be smarter but it will also be more uniform - which may make both individuals and populations more predicatble.

    Then how long will it take before a significant number of prospective parents think it's safe enough to use on THEIR offspring-to-be?

    How many people will chose to do it even when it IS practical. Remember: The more the genes are modified, the less the children are genetically THEIR children. I bet the fixups will be popular but the designer kids will be pretty rare - and faddish. (What do you do when you're eighteen, and blue eyes and pointy ears are SO fifteen-years-ago?)

    Members of various ethnic groups may consider it genocide, and not only boycott it but create political pressure against it. (And that will create a backlash...) This could get interesting.

    So for the first couple generations, at least, I'm not too worried about the upgrades taking over the world. The population will skew toward healthier and smarter, but mainly because the elimination of major genetic diseases will allow people to achieve more of their intellectual potential who would otherwise have suffered brain-harming "loads" from defective biochemical systems.

    IMHO by the time "upgrades" become a significant factor, we'll be dealing with a post-singularity scenario. If I'm still alive it will be because medical technology will have improved drastically - to the point that similar benefits will be available as a retrofit.

    It's the people who are making choices on the use of genetic upgrading on their offspring about twenty to forty years from now who may face the hard choice: Whether it's better for their genome and descendents to upgrade their children for better competition potential or leave them natural (or only-disease-deleted) for more gene transfer.

    Meanwhile - there's some interesting speculative literature on the subject - some of it quite old. _Brave New World_ is a well-known dystopia where a totalitarian government engineers the population for its convenience. One of Heinlein's early novelettes dealt with the issue of what a society might look like after some of the people are upgraded by several generations of voluntary ability to select only the "good" traits from the parents' genomes.

    And the Adam Warren _Dirty Pair_ graphic novels are set in a future that includes nanotech and genetic upgrades as major plot-driving elements. (The lead characters are themselves genetic upgrades, and an establishing scene in the current miniseries shows a confrontation between several young spacer upgrades and an older character from Mars who is biggotted against upgrades. He flames them for their comic-book appearnce and the taste buds in some private places. In return they razz him about his appendix. B-) )

    (Speaking of which - they found out what the appendix - and the tonsils and adenoids - are for. And while not necessary for life they still work and are advantageous.)
  • The trouble is that few of the improved traits are likely to be wholly without risk. Would you take a risk of a nerve disease to get improved reflexes? Would you take a shorter lifespan with improved strength?

    I'm not saying that it won't happen. I'm just saying that it is going to take a long time to completely work out all the details. Given that they can't test the lifetime effects in under fifty years or so, you take a risk at any modifications.

    Also bear in mind that it is much easier to genetically engineer an embryo than an adult creature. We are nearly there for the embryo but barely started on the adult. It is likely that you will still be waiting in line while children a quarter your age already have those traits.

  • As a professional working in the field (I am the director of bioinformatics for a small biotech company) I am thrilled to see the hacker community taking an interest in the genome project and the information coming out of it. In many ways it is a unique example of 'big science' where the results are literally posted every day in digital format on the net. Furthermore, it is a field in which any talented individual, with some diligence and study, can contribute. You don't need a space probe or particle accelerator in your basement...

    I would suggest taking a look at one of several good books on the topic, and peruse some of the excellent websites pointed out by others, then get involved!

    My personal favorite book is Biological Sequence Analysis [fatbrain.com] by Richard Durbin and Sean Eddy, two workers in the field whom I greatly respect. The book is engaging and pretty thorough, and plenty to get stared with!

    Join us! Hack the genome!

  • I'm 24. By the time I'm in my 70's-80's, sure there might be genetically enhanced people. I don't even really care though, because I anticipate that by that time we'll either be wiped out by Bill Joy's nanocaust prediction, or we'll all be superior beings thanks to the wonders of nano. We are on the verge of being able to produce, and then mass-produce, technology which can alter every cell in our body and make us younger, stronger, leaner, hell maybe even happier (nano-Xanax?). What chance does genetic enhancement have against directed nano-enhancement?
  • I think the idea that such technologies provide a 'potential for abuse' is a hideous understatement. As a species we are far too immature to be experimenting with such things. It will inevitably lead to a disaster of some sort.

    Look back at any of the useful technological innovations of the recent and distant past. If it could be used for something it was developed; if not, it was abandoned. We are, if nothing else, a pragmatic species, driven by economic and political incentives.

    We could explore almost any invention that has shaped our world and record its abuses. No matter how innocuous, innocent, magnanimous, etc. it seemed at the time, someone has always found a way to pervert it. The traditional example that will find its way onto this forum is atomic energy- the bomb came out of research into a new method for energy generation. I propose we examine many of the other, seemingly-innocent inventions that surround us.

    I won't go into specifics, as it would take an already-long post and stretch it out forever.... But I will re-iterate my position that genetic research is only the latest and greatest in a long line of self-destructive innovation. Human beings are not wise enough to restrain use of any innovations; once the technology exists it will be abused, with catastrophic effect.

    ~Morthaur, Poised at the Brink of Insanity
  • There has always been paranoia at new technologies. So, we have the ability to do something new. People were scared sh*tless at the concept of computers and robots. Hell, Asimov had a robot running the world. This didn't please too many people. Nevertheless, we've seen 1998 pass, and soon 2001 will pass. I still don't see no sinister talking robots.

    In my opinion, all this has to do with a lack of appreciation for the status quo. People do NOT want to change. No matter how quick, or new, the technology, people will always be slow and cautious to adopt it. That being said, we'll all probably be dead before the 'Gattaca' scenario could become a real possibility... most probably from CRT tube radiation. ;)

    Visit uMoo - http://www.uMoo.com/ [umoo.com] No Protien Designs, though?!
  • This is a large topic (it generally takes 2-3 years to teach people the basics), and from there specialities head off in countless directions (your question is large in a similar manner to 'I want to learn about computers' :>).

    To understand genetic engineering you need to understand the technology and also the organism on which it is being used. A fair grounding in general biology, the model organisms used to develop the technology, the basics of molecular biology, some genetics and cell biology is needed. Most genetic engineering is developed by finding out how some portion of biology works, and then imitating it for human purposes. Genetic engineering is like copying source code--scientists study the organism (the original code), and then crudely copy it giving a new genetic engineering technology.

    These links can give you a start, but if you are seriously interested, pick up an introductory college text with molecular biology, cell biology, or genetics in the title.

    Here are some resources available on the web:

    Primer on Molecular Genetics (Department of Energy) [jhmi.edu]

    MIT Biology Hypertextbook [mit.edu]

    Primer on Molecular Genetics from the U.S. Department of Energy [ornl.gov]

    Biotech Applied [accessexcellence.org] follow the Biotech Applied and Biotech Chronicles links

    (Small) glossary of genetic terms [nih.gov] put together by the National Human Genome Research Institute

    Info on research (with great graphics) funded by the Howard Hughes Medical Institute [hhmi.org]

    Jim Lund

  • It was written in 1942. The action is 300 years in the future, when people are selected for the best possible genetic features at conception. However, there are two groups of underprivileged people: the control "naturals" and some whose parents simply didn't have any real good gene combination.

    I also recommend the movie Gattacca, about a future when people who are not genetically optimized form a lower class of people. The hero in this film is in this condition, but he wants to be an astronaut, so he buys the identity of an enhanced man who was crippled by an accident. I think this is one of the best science fiction movies ever made.

  • does anyone else find it interesting that /. decided to put this article up directly following that story about how Bill Joy thinks technology could be the end of us?

    I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm sure it means something....

    ==
  • Genetically massaged traits aren't that much further in the future. Its only a matter of time before upgarding memory isn't just for computers. Soon genetic research could make calculators obsolete and reduce education to a pill. Moral objections? NONE. I'm already in line for increased intelligence, faster learning, better body and quicker reflexes (ktron wont stand a chance). The human species is an abomination, week, slow, stupid and scared. If I can pay to have someone remove the crap I've been stuck with since birth and remake myself in my own image, I couldn't get my wallet out fast enough! One might say that this sort of thing can only lead to loss of individuality and conformity. I say thats bullsh*t! Whats important is the content NOT the container. Chowda
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 12, 2000 @08:15AM (#1208026)
    While solving medical problems and giving people bigger breasts may remain in the public domain, you can bet your ass that if muscle/brain/reflex etc enhancement happens, it will either begin as or end up as property of the military/police. The people in power want neither dissidents nor foreign armies to have advantages in combat; therefore they will use whatever means possible to remain the sole proprietors to any genetic enhancements beyond cosmetic and medical ones.
  • by Signal 11 ( 7608 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @09:21AM (#1208027)
    What will happen if you have two largely polarized groups of people.. and then you bring them together suddenly? Any history book past page 20 will tell you a bad-ass "war to end all wars" style conflict will break out, there will be large casualties, and lots of pain and suffering because both sides think they're "right". There is no right in these situations.. only wrong. We have not evolved yet enough to dispense with physical violence as a tool to promote change...

    I'd just as soon we keep genetic engineering to the non-sentient lifeforms until we know more about it. I mean, the last thing we need is to engineer a "super" human which is not backwards-compatible with the current generation. Flip over to Star Trek TNG's story about how generically engineering an immune system to be "perfect" had the unfortunate side-effect of killing it's predecessors (namely, us) because of an unforseen variable: a normally harmless genetic virus for an example. I can think of more - science fiction is replete with these examples. I would say to anyone thinking seriously about this issue to spend some time at the library.. and some time in a movie theatre.

    And don't think for a minute that viruses won't take advantage of the host's "improved immume systems" - even if the new super-humans aren't hostile towards the existing generation we're still stuck with the problem of viruses which will more rapidly attack and infect people with less of an immune system (path of least resistance - plant a tree in a sunny spot, plant another in a dark spot, which one uses more of the soil's resources?)...

    We are messing with things far above and beyond our comprehension. I hate to say it, but I very nearly side with the conservative elements in our society on this - this is a matter best left to God. For now, anyway. The other sciences have not caught up enough to have enough of a base of knowledge to anticipate what will happen if we start changing genes. Trial and error is NOT an option for human experimentation.

    ~ Signal 11

  • As for muscle and reflexes, I think that a certain level of tampering will remain legal. We'd see a generation of kids growing up with no genetic diseases, and everybody would have similar levels of physical strength, endurance and reflex, looks, etc.

    Tampering with intelligence, on the other hand, is almost certain to be banned outright (obviously "rogue" nations won't care, and the US gov't will enhance their own soldiers secretly).

    One thing that triggers fear in the masses is intelligence. Physical strength they can understand, but intelligence eludes them. So, they'd blindly legislate away their ability to mess with it, fearing a generation of wunderkind that would relegate them to the dustbins of history. (Intelligence is probably also the hardest thing to successfully modify, since the brain's so complex.)

    What this means is that we'll see a stratification of our society into castes:

    • The kids of those who were naturally smart, who now benefit from genetic augmentation of their body.
    • The vast numbers of "average" people (when "average" starts to take on a completely new meaning!) who have genetic modifications and just dumbly go about their daily lives like nothing happened.
    • The unmodified. Those whose parents objected to their prenatal modification for one reason or another would grow up being teased, harrassed, and bullied for being "weak" or "different" (similar to Gattaca). However, they'd be so sick of it that within a generation or two, they'd all have ensured that their kids don't have to grow up in the same hell that they did. Also, it's hard to remain "unmodified" if anyone you could possibly mate with already has modified genes.

      Finally, there's the people who are too poor to be able to afford these modifications. And that'd include a lot of people worldwide. They'd be placed at the bottom rung of the social ladder, and they'd be forced to compete with the "modified" on the merit of their own natural traits.

      If (as in Gattaca) the "modified" automatically and prejudicially disdain all the unmodified people, then there would be very little interbreeding between the two groups. And if there were some genetic tag imprinted in anyone who was modified, this would be even more certain, since no matter how good your genes are, if you're natural, you're out of luck.

      Ironically, if the "unmodified" have harsh competition with the modified people, and practically no interbreeding between the two groups, then the unmodified would be forced to evolve at a much faster rate than the "modified", and within several generations, many of them would be naturally stronger, faster, smarter, etc. than the regulations allow the "modified" to become.

      Moral of the story: if you mess with nature, make sure it doesn't return to bite you in the ass.


    --

  • by luke_ ( 134634 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @03:05PM (#1208029)
    It always amuses me how clueless slashdot generally as group is about these things.... Despite best efforts otherwise.

    I don't know about the best efforts otherwise thing. The weird thing about biology is that humans (because they're "living," I guess) have so many false notions about biology that they hold to so strongly. Biologists who don't know how to take derivatives never argue to engineers that fourier transforms are a lie (or whatever), but the opposite holds true at least 90% of the time. I used to try to explain things to people on /., but I gave up after being told again and again that I was wrong by people who don't know the difference between DNA and RNA.

    As far as genetic engineering goes, genes themselves aren't nearly as important as people seem to think. Humans and chimps are supposedly 99% genetically identical, so why are the two so different? If we switched my hemoglobin with chimp hemoglobin, or slowly replaced my brain one neuron at a time with chimp neurons, I wouldn't become a chimpanzee. This is because the critical issue is not at the level of the gene products, but the REGULATION OF EXPRESSION OF THOSE GENES, especially during development. The uninformed love to spout about the wonders of genetic engineering that will unfold as soon as we have the genome sequenced, but the truth of it is that the human genome project won't solve any puzzles, it will just allow us to finally work with all the pieces.

    As far as engineering genes goes, there is no intelligence gene. There is no tall gene. There is no smart gene. There are combinations of thousands of different polymorphic loci that will yield these phenotypic traits, but finding these associations is a much larger task than sequencing the genome. This is something molecular neuroscientists can't get right even today, when they make their mice that have some gene knocked out or overexpress some GluR subunit wherever, then try to draw conclusions about intelligence or aggression based on time to swim water mazes or ear bite statistics.

    The real reason why human genetic engineering will not occur in our lifetimes, however, ("enhancing" humans, I mean, not fixing genetic disorders) is because humans have too many hangups about the sanctity of life. If you want to genetically engineer anything, you will inevitably have to go through hundreds and hundreds of failed attempts. Three-headed pigeon-boys with webbed legs and strange appendages. People aren't likely to volunteer their zygotes for this. Right now it's against the law to use NIH funding to obtain fetal tissue (pounds of which are THROWN AWAY at abortion clinics daily) to study AIDS, a 100% fatal disease that infects more than 11 people every minute. What are the chances that hundreds and hundreds of human lives are going to be thrown away to develop faster reflexes and 2 extra inches of penis length?
  • by ucblockhead ( 63650 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @08:35AM (#1208030) Homepage Journal
    ... is a problematic thing. What, exactly, is an ehancement? We can start be removing genetic diseases. That's something pretty straightforward and few would object. But "won't get sick" isn't quite "superhuman".

    Beyond this, it ain't so easy. The thing is, the human body is not a bundle of individual, unconnected traits that can be manipulated at will. It is a bunch of interdependent traits that have been optimized by evolution for a certain environment. Given that it is optimized, improving it may be difficult. Try to improve strength, and you may find that strength is a tradeoff with some other feature. Increase intelligence and you may get a higher incidence of insanity. Decrease insanity and you may lose creativity.

    Not that it can't, or won't, be done, but it is no where as easy as many people think. Personally, I think our grandkids will likely not worry about most genetic diseases, but it will be a couple generations after that before we get anyone that would be recognizably "superior" in general.

    Remember, there are two big problems in human genetic engineering. You have to be sure before you do anything. Mistakes are not an option. And you have to deal with a very long generation time. This isn't like fruit flies, where you can try things out and have the results in a few weeks.

  • by PhDevil ( 86163 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @09:02AM (#1208031)
    I suggest starting here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/, then, using the National Library of Medicine's PubMed search engine (which catalogues primary biomedical literature), search for reviews written about specific "hot" areas in genetic technology. PubMed is now a "killer app" because after finding an article that you're interested in, the abstract page has a "Books" link that re-formats the abstract with keywords hyperlinked to the seminal textbook Molecular Biology of the Cell. Now, even though a lot of these articles are written with a Biomedical audience in mind and filled with a lot of complex biology and jargon, definitions of anything needed for the "lay-"reader's understanding are immediately accessible. CHECK IT OUT.

    Often lost in the shuffle of these big debates on genetic technology are the people involved in the actual WORK, and the ACTUAL capabilities conferred on humanity by that work; the pundits come out of the woodwork (including here on Slashdot: News for COMPUTER Nerds, often not BIOLOGY Nerds) whenever someone mentions DNA. The words "genetic engineering" sell newspapers and books. I recommend looking a little deeper.
  • by ATKeiper ( 141486 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @09:05AM (#1208032) Homepage
    The Center for the Study of Technology and Society [tecsoc.org] has a Biotechnology page which has links to lots of relevant stories and articles and other sites.

    You can reach it here:
    http://www.tecsoc.org/biotech/biotech.htm [tecsoc.org]

    Also, we have a brief "What is Biotechnology? [tecsoc.org]" essay which explores some of the most important issues in that area.

    A. Keiper

  • by ewanb ( 18483 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @09:14AM (#1208033) Homepage


    It always amuses me how clueless slashdot generally as group is about these things....
    Despite best efforts otherwise. It comes up as
    an "Ask Slashdot" related question regularly;
    slashdot posts pseudo-science stories or op-ed
    about cloning etc, and yet... slashdot hasn't
    attempted to *contact the actual scientists*
    involved to get their opinion.

    Yes - I have suggested this as an interview topic
    a number of times. Slashdot editorials are more
    interested in "wow-science" stories than real
    science. It annoys me. (but I still read slashdot).

    Here are some pointers:

    The largest public sequencing center in the world

    http://www.sanger.ac.uk/

    The US biological information portal

    http://www.ncbi.nln.nih.gov/

    The European biological information portal

    http://www.ebi.ac.uk/

    Some open source projects in this area:

    (The bio* group.)

    http://bio.perl.org/

    http://www.biojava.org/

    http://www.biopython.org/

    http://www.bioxml.org/

    Open source genome annotation project

    http://www.ensembl.org/

  • by Syn.Terra ( 96398 ) on Sunday March 12, 2000 @08:17AM (#1208034) Homepage Journal

    Human Genome Project Information:
    http://www.ornl.gov/TechRe sources/Human_Genome/home.html [ornl.gov]

    Human Genome Program, Genome Research:
    http://www.er.doe.gov/production /ober/hug_top.html [doe.gov]

    National Human Genome Research Institute:
    http://www.nhgri.nih.gov/ [nih.gov]

    On a more philosophical note, when those who are in their adolescence find themselves looking at a generation which has had their genes tampered, there will be prejudice. Lots of it. It can't be avoided.

    But what about those who got vaccines at birth? Those who never had to worry about smallpox, polio, etc.? Every generation we go through is healthier than the last, constantly improving. Genetic research will be an issue, obviously, but it's not that unbelivable or radical. Just another step in the same direction.
    ------------

  • by rgmoore ( 133276 ) <glandauer@charter.net> on Sunday March 12, 2000 @09:07AM (#1208035) Homepage

    One resource I'd strongly recommend is the National Center for Biotechnology Information [nih.gov]. I'm a professional working in the field of Proteomics (the protein equivalent of Genomics) and NCBI is an outstanding clearinghouse of information. It also has good links to other sites. If you really want to see some of the science that's going on using genomic information (and are willing to put up with a somewhat dry, utilitarian attitude), it's a good place to look.

Numeric stability is probably not all that important when you're guessing.

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