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It's the Architecture, Stupid

Posted by Hemos on Thu Nov 11, 1999 09:37 AM
from the pounding-sense-into-the-government dept.
Thanks to Lawrence Lessig for sending us a filing that he and Mark Lemley have put before the FCC. The filing, also in PDF, deals with open access as well as principles of network design. It's a long piece, but well worth reading.Thanks to Lawrence for another link.
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  • Where have I heard that name? by Otter (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:47AM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by Pedestrian (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:53AM
  • So? by friedo (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:54AM
  • Actually, no they don't. They have a right to do with their cable what they please WITHIN THE LAW. Those last three words are -very- important, and ones that Microsoft apparently neglected.

    Then, there is another point you need to consider. A service exists to serve. It has no other purpose. Nor should it have. Every service that puts short-term profits, or the whims of it's shareholders, above it's customers and products has invariably collapsed.

    This, in itself, wouldn't be an issue if it existed in a vaccuum. But nothing in life does. If something the size of AT&T destroys itself, in an orgy of profiteering, it's liable to destroy the larger percentage of the telecommunications services in the US, on which modern lives are very dependent. (The emergency services depend on these facilities, for example, as do many hospitals, research facilities, etc.)

    Last, but not least, Slashdot does not have an attitude. Slashdot is a collection of bytes in a computer's memory. Slashdot's admins may have their own attitudes and opinions, but each will have their own. The same is true of the readers. We are ALL individuals, and ALL different, in our views, political persuasions, religious beliefs, ethical and moral values, etc. To blanket everyone as this mysterious "THEM" with the "Attitude" is to do a terrible disservice to the diverse, multicultural segment of humanity that comprise the people who inhabit the Slashdot news service.

  • Were the "Net Libertarians" Born Yesterday? by the red pen (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:13AM
  • Re:So? (Score:4)

    by jd (1658) <imipak@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Thursday November 11 1999, @05:15AM (#1542654) Homepage Journal
    Actually, the Internet is heavily regulated, doubly so now that it's in the private sector.

    • Internet connections cannot cross State lines without a long-distance carrier licence. (Research labs, Universities and the Military could all get round this, one way or another.)
    • Internet backbone providers must use FCC-approved equiptment, and be licenced to connect to telecommunications equiptment.
    • Internet cables and junctions must meet FCC standards and regulations. (You don't think local telecos -like- the 56K limit, do you?)
    • Wireless Internet connections must meet FCC requirements, and operators must have the appropriate licence, where necessary.

      And then, there are the internally-imposed regulations that the Internet has:

      1. To be a part of the Internet, per se, a system must be capable of supporting at least IPv4 traffic, and all appropriate inter-router gateway protocols.
      2. All appropriate RFC's must be natively supported. Otherwise, the connection is deemed a gateway to a non-Internet network.
      3. The network must be connected to the Internet via a recognised and registered node.

      Then, there are the Ethernet packets. Formally specified. Deviate, and your device is not capable of connection to an Ethernet network. Same with ATM (Asynch Transfer Mode, to Americans who might confuse this with their bank machine).

      Sprint's takeover of some of the NSFNET resulted in a 2 week collapse of all transatlantic services, so I'd think ==VERY== carefully before citing them as a good example of deregulation.

  • Re:So? by adimarco (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:15AM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:17AM
  • Just The Latest AOL Shilling from slashdot by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:18AM
  • Re:So? by bdurling (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:18AM
  • The Risk/Reward Argument by the red pen (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:23AM
  • by Robin Hood (1507) on Thursday November 11 1999, @05:27AM (#1542660) Homepage
    Let me try to explain the terminology... Infrastructure is the physical wires going into your computer, whether they be connected to a POTS modem, a cable "modem", or a DSL "modem". Presumably you would pay a monthly fee for the maintenance of those, just like you pay the local phone company extra for a second phone line into your house. An ISP uses the existing physical network to deliver Internet traffic: you get an IP address from your ISP, not your infrastructure provider. ISP's pay the infrastucture providers for the cost of using their networks, and pass on that cost to you in your monthly ISP fee -- want more bandwidth, pay a higher fee. If you're dissatisfied with your ISP's service, well, there are several others with local POP's (Points of Presence) near you, so you can easily switch.

    The concern here is that AT&T, an infrastructure provider, is merging with MediaOne, an ISP to provide a bundled infrastructure + IP address commercial package. Sounds fine, right? Well, stop to think about it.

    Say your ISP blocks port 6667 (the most common IRC port) for some reason -- say liability concerns about the legality of IRC activity. Or say they don't want you connecting to any USENET servers but their own, so they block port 119 (the NNTP port) connections to all servers except theirs. You'd soon ditch them and move to another ISP, wouldn't you? And you'd stop paying the first ISP, because you weren't using their services anymore.

    And there's the rub.

    If AT&T is allowed to bundle its infrastructure service with MediaOne's ISP service, you'll be paying for MediaOne whether you use it or not. It would be like bundling an OS with your new computer so that you paid for the OS whether you wanted it or not (<sarcasm>which I'm sure has never happened...</sarcasm>). Say MediaOne starts blocking the ports used for IP telephony -- after all, that's a direct competitor to AT&T's primary business. Suddenly, millions of MediaOne customers are forced either to switch to another ISP or give up using IP telephony. And if they switch to another ISP, they're still paying for MediaOne! Don't want to pay for MediaOne? Sorry -- it comes with your DSL connection; if you don't want MediaOne, you're going to have to find another DSL service. What? There aren't any other DSL providers in your area? That's just too bad. At least with the Wintel hardware/OS bundling, you had other choices -- you could buy a Mac, or an Amiga, or a Sparc, or... But with this situation, you'll be forced to pay for MediaOne -- and how many people will choose to pay *extra* for another ISP? Very few -- most, in the scenario I describe, would choose instead to give up IP telephony.

    And that's what the concern is. If AT&T is allowed to bundle ISP services with infrastructure services, it can kill any use of the network it doesn't like, by doing things like I just described. That's why this paper is important, and why infrastructure needs to be kept separate from Internet access.
    -----
    The real meaning of the GNU GPL:

  • Re:So? by otis wildflower (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:27AM
  • Re:The Risk/Reward Argument by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:31AM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by otis wildflower (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:34AM
  • Re:Well gee by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:35AM
  • Re:So? by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:37AM
  • Letter contradicts itself by cfulmer (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:38AM
  • Re:So? by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:38AM
  • Algore ain't my daddy by Zigurd (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:41AM
  • Wrong by igjeff (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:43AM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by jd (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:44AM
  • Re:So? by jd (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:46AM
  • Re:So? by Saige (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:47AM
  • by adimarco (30853) on Thursday November 11 1999, @05:48AM (#1542673) Homepage
    This whole thing is basically about broadband access. "Our sole concern is the architecture that AT&T and MediaOne propose for broadband access."

    The model proposed apparently does not allow the user to select an ISP, and the authors argue that this may unfairly (to consumers) limit the types of services available in the future, and possibly allow the AT&T/MediaOne merger to create a monopoly on services they feel ISPs should be providing.

    "By bundling ISP service with access, and by not permitting users to select another ISP, the architecture removes ISP competition within the residential broadband cable market. By removing this competition, the architecture removes an important threat to any strategic behavior that AT&T might engage in once a merger is complete."

    They go on to explain how this represents a threat to the very kind of open-ness that has made the internet great so far.

    Interesting to note that they don't seem like the type who would actually ask for regulation. They seem to consider it as a necessary evil at this stage of the development of the net. I tend to agree, letting things get out of control (if they're right) would only mean even more regulation later.

    Look, they gave us props:

    35. This is not to say that the government created the innovation that the Internet has enjoyed. Nor is it to endorse government, rather than private, development of Internet-related technologies. Obviously, the extraordinary innovation of the Internet arises from the creativity of private actors from around the world. Some of these actors work within corporations. Some of the most important have been associated with the Free Software, and Open Source Software Movements. And some have been entrepreneurs operating outside of any specific structure. But the creativity that these innovators have produced would not have been enabled but for the opening of the communications network. Our only point is that the government had a significant role in that opening.

    Anthony

    ^X^X
    Segmentation fault (core dumped)
  • Re:Well gee by otis wildflower (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:50AM
  • Aaron still doesn't get it ;) by igjeff (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:55AM
  • Re:So? by 0xdeadbeef (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:55AM
  • Re:So? by Saige (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:55AM
  • Re:Aaron still doesn't get it ;) by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:59AM
  • Maybe it's just me by Otto (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:59AM
  • Re:Well gee by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:04AM
  • Re:The Risk/Reward Argument by Saige (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:05AM
  • Re:So? by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:06AM
  • Cable Modem access lame by igjeff (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:07AM
  • Re:Infrastructure vs. ISP's by Paul Carver (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:08AM
  • Re:So? by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:08AM
  • Re:The Risk/Reward Argument by Chops-Frozen-Water (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:11AM
  • Re:The Risk/Reward Argument by the red pen (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:12AM
  • Re:So? by jd (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:13AM
  • Re:Aaron still doesn't get it ;) by Ed Bugg (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:17AM
  • Re:So? by PD (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:17AM
  • Re:Maybe it's just me by chialea (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:21AM
  • Re:Maybe it's just me by panda (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:27AM
  • Re:Well gee by Lando (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:30AM
  • Re:So? by Arctic Fox (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:32AM
  • Re:So? by otis wildflower (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:33AM
  • by itachi (33131) <<ude.nilrebo.sc> <ta> <rengewm>> on Thursday November 11 1999, @06:34AM (#1542697) Homepage
    Businesses such as telco, gas, electric, etc are called natural monopolies, because it is inefficient and stupid for competing firms to lay redundant power/gas/telco lines through an area. Think about it - five different gas pipelines running under a given street, all maintained by different people. One day, there's a leak. You call all five, and they each say there's no trouble on their line, must be the other utility. Or phone poles with lines for all 43 local telcos? The way that natural monopolies are dealt with in free market economies is heavy govt. regulations or govt ownership. Look at your local utility companies, if you live in such a nation. The only way around natural monoploies that makes sense is requiring companies to lease out infrastructure for a fair price. So let's get some examples:
    *Montgomery County, MD gas utility - (DC suburbs) gas is provided by one utility. There is no competition. However, the local govt. has pricing and quality of service restrictions on the utility to ensure that the monopoly power that they have granted the utility isn't abused.
    *Cell Phones - Cell companies build cell infrastructure, and that isn't a natural monopoly. However, most local telcos are, so when you make a call on a cell phone to a local landline, what's happening is that the cell co. uses up some bandwidth that it has leased from the local telco. (this is assuming that the local telco is a natural monopoly)
    *Long distance telco - no monoplies anymore, but the flexible infrastructure is very important and used in the same manner. Joe Bob and Peggy Sue start their lond distance service, but have no infrastructure. They lease a portion of some AT&T lines. AT&T wants to oversubscribe the lines, so it's in their interest, Joe Bob and Peggy Sue get some infrastructure space, and there's another long distance provider trying to bring lower prices to the market than its competition.

    The reason these professors are rightly concerned is very clear. I would suggest that anyone who doesn't get their point should re-read the article, the whole way through. If one company controls the infrastructure, has no competiton, and goes unregulated, the consumer gets screwed. The FCC should NEVER hand a firm unregulated monoploy power. Would anyone here suggest that MS should have been handed its monoploy power by an agency of the federal govt?

    itachi
  • So! by itachi (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:41AM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by mtngrown (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:41AM
  • Re:Well gee by otis wildflower (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:47AM
  • a vat of doo-doo by lophophore (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:57AM
  • Re:Aaron still doesn't get it ;) by igjeff (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:13AM
  • Re:So? by 0xdeadbeef (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:19AM
  • Regulation = Monopoly by sansbury (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:21AM
  • by overshoot (39700) on Thursday November 11 1999, @07:22AM (#1542707)
    Robin Hood wrote:
    Say MediaOne starts blocking the ports used for IP telephony -- after all, that's a direct competitor to AT&T's primary business. Suddenly, millions of MediaOne customers are forced either to switch to another ISP or give up using IP telephony. And if they switch to another ISP, they're still paying for MediaOne! Don't want to pay for MediaOne? Sorry -- it comes with your DSL connection; if you don't want MediaOne, you're going to have to find another DSL service.

    Much more to the point, you still have port 119 blocked. Your access to YAISP is through MediaOne, not around them. Their Terms of Service still apply, and so does their firewalling of port 119.

    This isn't hypothetical; I tried to get Cox/@Home to connect me, and was even willing to pay extra for access to my old ISP. No such luck; their TOS forbids having any servers attached and I use NFS for the home machinery.
  • Re:Infrastructure vs. ISP's by overshoot (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:26AM
  • Speeding is NOT a crime by UnknownSoldier (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:30AM
  • Re:Maybe it's just me by overshoot (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:34AM
  • Re:Well gee by Silver A (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:41AM
  • Re:So? by 101010 (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:49AM
  • Simple Regulation and Open Peering by tangent24 (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:57AM
  • This Just In: /. has an anti Microsoft bias by copito (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:58AM
  • But you get a hobbled IP address by Max Hyre (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @08:08AM
  • My cable guy... by ripler (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @08:14AM
  • You're a loony by the red pen (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @08:24AM
  • ATT is at risk regardless by A nonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @08:47AM
  • There's no theft; it's all paid for by A nonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @08:48AM
  • @Home port filtering by protagonist (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @09:08AM
  • And you thought MS overused "innovation" by copito (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @09:20AM
  • How do you open a cable loop? by copito (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @09:52AM
  • Odd event given Lessig's past by whitey07 (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @10:47AM
  • Re:My cable guy... by troutman (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @10:50AM
  • Re:Maybe it's just me by GuidoDKP (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @10:54AM
  • First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. by sansbury (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @12:48PM
  • A lesson in capitalism by copito (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:01PM
  • Re:Well gee, government set up monopoly cable by TheSync (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:38PM
  • Natural monopolies are a farce by TheSync (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:45PM
  • Re:Private property doesn't seem to count by TheSync (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @04:47PM
  • Re:Time for an econ lesson.... by itachi (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:24PM
  • Re:Natural monopolies are a farce by itachi (Score:2) Thursday November 11 1999, @05:36PM
  • militia types?? by UnknownSoldier (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @06:57PM
  • An IDP != Driver's License by UnknownSoldier (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @07:03PM
  • Re:Algore ain't my daddy by toriver (Score:1) Thursday November 11 1999, @11:53PM
  • Re:a vat of doo-doo by lessig (Score:1) Friday November 12 1999, @05:32PM
  • 19 replies beneath your current threshold.
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