Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Security Bug

The Psychology of Virus Writers 253

securitas writes "BBC Technology reports on the psychology of virus writers and the work of security researcher Sarah Gordon, who has been studying this area for 20 years. ''The stereotype that virus writers are all young teenage boys with no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate,' she said. In contrast, she said, most virus creators are typical for their age, are on good terms with friends and family and are often contributors to their local community.' The story is an interesting contrast to a previous BBC report about why people write viruses."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

The Psychology of Virus Writers

Comments Filter:
  • virus-con (Score:4, Interesting)

    by larry bagina ( 561269 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:40PM (#7425097) Journal
    As well as quizzing people online, Ms Gordon, who now works for security firm Symantec, became a regular at the conferences and conventions that virus writers attend and organise.

    Do virus writers really go to virus conventions? I'd think you'd find people like Ms Gordon, undercover FBI, wannabe 133t teenagers, and maybe a couple former virus writers out of jail and trying to find admiration.

    • Re:virus-con (Score:4, Informative)

      by BrynM ( 217883 ) * on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7425134) Homepage Journal
      Do virus writers really go to virus conventions? I'd think you'd find people like Ms Gordon, undercover FBI, wannabe 133t teenagers, and maybe a couple former virus writers out of jail and trying to find admiration.
      Well, they may have attended H2K [h2k.net] or H2K2 [h2k2.net]. How about Defcon [defcon.org]? I heard plenty of stories about the Fed being there. Lots of poseurs too.
    • Re:virus-con (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Shisha ( 145964 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:01PM (#7425200) Homepage
      The article in general didn't seem to be too Slashdot worthy, so to speak.

      I mean, for the general public it might be big news that writing viruses, especially nowadays with MS Outlook everywhere, has become a challenge just about only for a few teenagers. The article didn't mention anything about even the possibility of someone writing viruses for some ill purpose e.g. creating spam drones, preparing for a DDoS attack or whatever.

      In a typical psychologist style there were general statements like "viruses written by hackers are more complex". Who's a hacker? For me it's Linus and Alan Cox etc. not someone running "nmap" and waiting for a new exploit to be published. The point is there is no clear definition of a"hacker" and the statement becomes plain meaningless. What does "typical of their age mean"? Oh nevermind.

      Btw. Also I'm not sure what she meant by "participating in the local community". Does that mean slashdot?
      • Re:virus-con (Score:5, Informative)

        by Omestes ( 471991 ) <omestesNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:19PM (#7425269) Homepage Journal
        Using the term hacker is not vague to the general public. The word has a very concrete meaning, to most people it means someone who does bad things with computers, i.e. use them to steal data, crack systems, mess up corporate and governmental websites, and such.

        Sure, geeks and /.ers use the term to mean ubergeeks with a more egalitarian ethical system, but joe public does not understand this. They we either not around when the word hacker was used as a benevelant tag, nor are they as deep in the geek community and mystique.

        So the use of the word geek does not make the article loose validity.
    • I remember Sarah from Fidonet -- sheesh we must both be getting very old. She was famous in those days for saying "Information is Free", and for being penpals with various Bulgarian virus writers (like the guy who wrote the "mutation engine"). I do believe that she has met more virus writers than virtually anyone else. You will find teasing tributes to her in some of the viruses from the 1980's and 1990's. Word up SaraH; remember me? The guy who sent you the dolphin shirt? G
    • by KillerHamster ( 645942 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:30PM (#7425306) Homepage
      And if they really were geeky enough to be virus writers, wouldn't a woman stand out like a sore thumb?
      • by PReDiToR ( 687141 )
        And if they really were geeky enough to be virus writers, wouldn't a woman stand out like a sore thumb?

        Not really, I think there might be one registered with /.

        But have YOU ever seen her?
  • Slashdot? (Score:5, Funny)

    by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:41PM (#7425100) Homepage Journal
    no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate

    How about running a similar investigation on /. folk?

    • by Anonymous Coward
      no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate

      How about running a similar investigation on /. folk?


      Result: The average slashdotter is a diehard geek. He does have a social life and gets regular sex with his two friends, miss Right and miss Left.
    • Re:Slashdot? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Davak ( 526912 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:54PM (#7425162) Homepage
      Not to push your idea too far, but perhaps virus writing and slashdotting are somewhat related.

      No, I'm not trolling...

      Virus writers get a lot of attention and feedback regarding their work. They usually believe they are exposing some weakness or highlighting some security risk. They see their actions on the news and the internet.

      Slashdot posting gives some similar stimuli. By posting an excellent message, the author receives moderation and more people start discussing the idea. Likewise, most slashdotters are posting to expose an idea or highlight something they think somebody else might appreciate.

      Both activities give certain rewards. Just like trolling is a cheap (immoral?) way of getting good slashdot stimuli such as responses and emotion... virus writing is a cheap (immoral?) way of getting "rewarded" for programming.

      I think the worship of Rand (Atlas Shrugged) is stupid... however, it serve to remind us that people do certain things for rewards--slashdot or virus writing included.

      Davak
      • In that case you just wrote the /. equivalent of a nice virus, one that actually exposes a common, well researched, flaw.
      • Slashdot posting gives some similar stimuli. By posting an excellent message, the author receives moderation and more people start discussing the idea.

        Actually, if you look at /. "discussions", they are mostly quite shallow trees. Lots of comments on the article; a few of those comments get a long list of (often not very relevant) replies; a very few get replies to those replies. Not much depth there. Very few cases where the discussion really leads to any conclusions.

        OTOH, often the first two levels
    • I'm a young teenage boy with no social life, hiding in my basement. I'm on good terms with friends and family and contribute to my local community.
  • Stereotypes (Score:4, Interesting)

    by immel ( 699491 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:41PM (#7425102)
    "The stereotype that virus writers are all young teenage boys with no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate"
    It is quite normal for teenage boys with no social life(something they have no control over) to hide in their basement. I believe it was Linus Torvalds who said that we could alll breathe easier if all these poor people could just get some dates. (someone will probably redirect this to the NYT magazine interview)
    • Re:Stereotypes (Score:5, Insightful)

      by KillerHamster ( 645942 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:41PM (#7425347) Homepage

      As reported in this [slashdot.org] Slashdot story, the interview is here [nytimes.com] (free reg, etc.)

      The relevant question and response were:

      We've been getting hit with a lot of viruses and worms lately. What's your idea for ending the attacks?

      When you have people who hook up these machines that weren't designed for the Internet, and they don't even want to know about all the intricacies of network security, what can you expect? We get what we have now: a system that can be brought down by a teenager with too much time on his hands. Should we blame the teenager? Sure, we can point the finger at him and say, ''Bad boy!'' and slap him for it. Will that actually fix anything? No. The next geeky kid frustrated about not getting a date on Saturday night will come along and do the same thing without really understanding the consequences. So either we should make it a law that all geeks have dates -- I'd have supported such a law when I was a teenager -- or the blame is really on the companies who sell and install the systems that are quite that fragile.

      • This is a crock of shit. People, even teenagers, need to be responsible for their actions. Being mad because you can't get a date isn't an excuse to go write a virus any more than it is an excuse to go beat someone up. Now I'm nto saying throw a 15 year old kid in prison for 10 years because they write a virus, but they DO need to face legal repercussions and face consequences for their actions. "But I was frustrated and filled with angst" does not cut it. That line of crap could be given by many criminals,
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by heironymouscoward ( 683461 ) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [drawocsuomynorieh]> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:42PM (#7425104) Journal
    Because it's good business, when you're being paid by spammers to create huge networks of compliant computers.

    The kids who learnt how to do this 5-10 years ago are now living off it. For the really good virus writers, it's become a career.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I would think today's virus writer would be described as a corporate employee who has read Sun Tzu, and is extremely ambitious at work. As such, the virus writer would wear a suit to work when that is what gets him the most money, or would wear Eddie Bauer when that is the outfit getting the most money.

      I suspect the modern corporate virus writer would be the employee who spends the majority of time playing company politics, as opposed to the Dilbert type engineer that loathes politics.

      I suspect that mos
      • That's a really weird outlook. You sound like somebody who wears his necktie too tight or something.

        Writing self-replicating code that 'lives' in cyberspace is 'cool.' It's completely uncool when it is used in malevolent ways and/or damages anything.

        The hacker 'ethic' demands that nothing be damaged, it's more like climbing a mountain 'because it is there.'

        Oh the other hand, most of the 'modern' viruses are neither interesting nor technically oriented. Hell, I remember peeking into 'virus writing news
    • Seriously, +4 insightful modding on that post??

      Because it's good business, when you're being paid by spammers to create huge networks of compliant computers.

      Viruses are not used by spammers. Worms and trojans may be used by them, but NOT viruses!!! Now, looking at worms and trojans, how many are used by spammers? I work for an AV company, and I know of about 10 worms and less than 20 trojans that are obviously written for spamming purposes.

      The kids who learnt how to do this 5-10 years ago are now l
      • So, the article was specifically about virus writers as compared to the authors of worms, trojans, backdoors, etc.?

        Hardly.

        As Slashdot has commented before, the spam industry is probably the main commercial force behind the latest viruses/trojans/worms, not to mention large-scale and sophisticated DDOS attacks on anti-spam vendors.

        You are part of the AV industry? And you think you're facing a bunch of teenage script kiddies? God help us all, we're in for real trouble then.
        • You are part of the AV industry? And you think you're facing a bunch of teenage script kiddies? God help us all, we're in for real trouble then.

          1, I said I work for an AV company. For all you know, I could be in the finance department.
          2, What difference does it make what I think? Even if I was a developer, would I deal with things differently because I believe it was written by a scripkiddie, when it was infact written by an organized crime unit? Wouldn't the end result be the same in both cases, regar
  • by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:43PM (#7425109) Homepage
    "Mua ha ha."
    • Follow the money ---> Microsoft is the virus writer. I've heard more than one computer vendor saying this last wave of computer viruses is great because it's forcing people to "upgrade". The old OS always gets broken when M$ wants to push another one.

      The BBC jouranlist should have done a little more homework and written a story rather than quoting this Symantic employee straight. All the makings of a good story are there, a repeated pattern, many people harmed, a few benifit, and a money trail a mile

  • by bigberk ( 547360 ) <bigberk@users.pc9.org> on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:44PM (#7425110)
    Many of the people writing newer viruses (those that relate to spam) are of a different breed entirely. I personally believe the people responsible for modern Internet spamming worms are more malicious than teenage hackers would ever want to be. These menaces to society consider themselves businessmen. You wish we were dealing with teenage hackers. Read up on Internet spam and viruses [sysdesign.ca], and see this less technical article along the same lines [globetechnology.com].
    • They do not connect the impact of what they do on the computer with the impact on another person

      These newest virii, ie MSblster, are made to impact users, how could you think otherwise? oops sorry i didnt realize that it would shutdown your computer, or perhaps nimda, oh i didnt realize i was collecting your admin passwords to your NT servers, I guess I'll stop now.

      The artical was really nothing special except what one person thinks of people shes met, but you cant say with a straight face that a disastor

      • These newest virii, ie MSblster, are made to impact users, how could you think otherwise?

        If I understand you correctly, you're making the point that viruses not related to spam are equally destructive. My problem is that spammers are creating viruses as part of a long-term strategy. They are establishing an infrastructure that is already showing long-term impacts on the Internet (huge regions of the net being blacklisted; dynamic and dialups no longer being treated equally).

        A teenager gives up on viru

    • ... people responsible for modern Internet spamming worms ... consider themselves businessmen.

      How's this different from Gator and other malware? How about some of Microsoft's practices, like keeping a database of all the movies and songs you use and selling space on "their" desktop to third parties that spam you later? All spam is evil, using proxies is just a new twist.

      In any case, the evil would die out if Microsoft did not make a crapy OS that any 17 year old could break. Give credit where credit is

  • by herrvinny ( 698679 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:44PM (#7425116)
    For your average email virus, slap on a SMTP engine, a searcher to grab email addresses, and a semi-interesting email so people will run the program, and bam, you're got yourself an email virus, preying upon people's stupidity.

    On the other hand, things that attack vulnerabilities such as buffer overruns, etc are harder because you actually have to do some research.

    A question for /. lawyers and people who play one: virus writing is illegal, I know, but is writing a trojan illegal? And if it is, how do you define a trojan?
    • Yet, if you create a virus that exploits an undocumented buffer overflow\overrun\etc, your worm will be nearly impossible to stop, since so few people run anything other then Outlook.
    • by spiritraveller ( 641174 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:43PM (#7425361)
      is writing a trojan illegal?

      The only difference between a virus and a trojan is that with a trojan you know you have SOMETHING on your computer. In many instances, such as with an Outlook attachment, the distinction is unclear.

      The important part is that both viruses and trojans cause your computer to do things without your permission.

      When you run a program that's supposed to help you paint pretty pictures, and instead it pops up "YOU'RE HOSED!" and wipes out your partition table, it doesn't matter that you knew you were running a program. The point is that you didn't know it would wipe out your hard drive.

      If all it does is pop up a window saying "Hi Mom!" then the distinction between a virus and a trojan makes more sense.

      While there may be specific laws against writing viruses and/or trojans... there are other laws that can apply too. Criminal Trespass/Damage to Property comes to mind.

      • If it were the case that anything that did something to your computer that you didn't authorise or know about, then spyware would be illegal, and all background (echo, finger, time, application layer gateway etc...) would have to be declared in the EULA or in the README, displayed prominently on installation.

        MSblast and other nasty programs only do things your PC/OS is designed to do, but in a way that you wouldn't want them to, at a time you did not specify.

        You could include windows update in that ca
  • by heldlikesound ( 132717 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7425118) Homepage
    Stereotype is a word that seems thrown around an awful lot these days, and it's often used in a negative context. But aren't stereotypes a logical and efficient way of group things (in this case people)?

    I'm not saying that every stereotype is right all the time, and some are downright wrong, and have been perpetuated, not out of a means of mentally sorting and grouping, but out of hate or fear.

    Anyway, I'm gonna go hang out in the backyard of my white Protestant family's backyard and talk about golf while barbecuing.
    • From Merriam-Webster: [m-w.com]

      Main Entry: 2stereotype Function: noun Etymology: French stereotype, from stere- stere- + type Date: 1817 .. 2 :

      something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

      So, if the sterotype is not generally true, it's not a sterotype.

    • You are right, in a sense. Any socially stratified, complex society can be generalized in terms of stereotypes, and, in general, the word stereotype does not necessarily mean a perjorative. Homi Bhabha (cultural studies people eventually read him) says that "stereotypes are the sutures that hold culture together." Before you run and say that to someone else, think of the imagery here. Sutures close wounds and wounds, in this case, are caused by stigma. Stigma is a rending force in culture and is what we usu
    • by sczimme ( 603413 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @06:30PM (#7425580)

      Anyway, I'm gonna go hang out in the backyard of my white Protestant family's backyard and talk about golf while barbecuing.

      1) Your backyard has a backyard? Cool!

      2) Golf while barbecuing? Do you have a grill hitched to the back of the golf cart? 'Cause that would be neat, but the greenskeeper might get mad. Oh, you meant ((talk about golf) while barbecuing), not (talk about (golf while barbecuing)). Gotcha.

      Bet you thought these would be at least somewhat relevant questions about stereotypes. In the words of Dark Helmet: "Fooled you!"

      :-)
    • But aren't stereotypes a logical and efficient way of group things (in this case people)?

      Yes. But it annoys Joe Sixpack and his vocabulary and simple understanding of victimhood in society.
  • social life (Score:2, Funny)

    by Blair16 ( 683764 )
    The article says Ms. Gordon has been studying this for 20 years. I think she is the one that needs to have a social life.
    • The article says Ms. Gordon has been studying this for 20 years.

      But seriously... I thought computer viruses haven't even been around that long. It was my impression that the first one was Pakistani Brain [brain.net.pk], written in 1986 and not really becoming widespread until the late 80s. 2003-1986 = 17 years.

  • by karuna ( 187401 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @04:58PM (#7425187) Homepage
    I have never used antivirus program for the last 4 or 5 years and my computer has never be infected with a virus. Actually it is a mistery for me why people execute apparently infected file on their computers and then blame others for their stupidity.

    I remember the times when viruses spread around with floppies. It got written into boot sector and loaded into memory when floppy was inserted into drive. Then antivirus programms were necessary. Nowadays, however, it is not a technical issue to write a virus but purely human engineering. Those virus writters have better understanding of average human psychology than I have and they know that average Joe will download untrusted file, or will run the attachment, regardless how suspicious it may look.

    Why care about virus writers? They will always be arrond like those who draw grafiti on walls which is a nuisance but not something that any sane man would seriously believe to. Better educate people how to use their computers and whom to trust online.
  • "The stereotype that virus writers are all young teenage boys with no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate," she said.

    The same could be said about /. posters.
  • A "typical" virus writer...

    Someone who wants fame... so, therefore, I would opine that they have low self-esteem, be in a job that doesn't get many rewards (apart from income), seeks personal satisfaction, possibly high IQ, possibly asking themselves the question of the meaning of life

    Or, revenge seekers, or just misguided in their zealous attempt to defend a view they passionately believe in....
  • So true... (Score:3, Funny)

    by TLouden ( 677335 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:05PM (#7425221)
    ''The stereotype that virus writers are all young teenage boys with no social life, hiding in their basement is not accurate,'

    It's true, I'm on the second floor not in the basement.
  • Side-profile. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "In contrast, she said, most virus creators are typical for their age, are on good terms with friends and family and are often contributors to their local community"

    Couldn't the same be said for most crimminals?
    • Ahem. I believe you are referring to *WHITE COLLAR* criminals.

      Last time I checked, most *criminal* convicts in the joint have a history of violent behavior, difficulty with anger management, and difficulty expressing strong emotions in a constructive fashion. Don't believe me? Check the type of crowd inhabiting your local county jail.

      White-collar criminals, OTOH, often fit the above pattern you describe: these individuals typically have no problem being nice to the people they *know*. They also usually
  • Ethics etc... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by temojen ( 678985 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:23PM (#7425282) Journal
    "I believe that with correctly designed curriculum, talking about ethics can really reduce these behaviours," she said, "they need to learn from the first time they use a computer what is appropriate and what is not."

    I think ethics should be in the school curriculum, but not just with respect to computers. There are far too many self centred people coming out of schools. And by ethics I do not mean religious dogma; I mean an honest, frank, and thoughtfull discussion of consequential and deontological ethics, without reference to religion.

    I'd also like to see First-aid and basic emergency procedures a required part of the curriculum... it really sucks to be the only one at an accident scene who knows first aid when you're one of the casualties.

    • Nothing wrong with self-centredness as a pillar of ethics; these kids simply lack sufficient reasoning skills; their capacity for critical thought is far too shallow, since they do not understand the depth of their own ignorance, they over-estimate their own abilities.

      See this recent study: Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments. [homeip.net]

      Interesting that you mention consequential ethics. Is it actually a field of ethical study? I ask
      • Consequential Ethical theories are those theories that consider the expected consequences of an act, not the intent. It includes:

        • Ethical Egoism: which states that an act is ethical if it maximizes the benefit for the one doing the act
        • Act Utilitarianism: which states that an act is ethical if it maximizes the benefit to the maximum amount of people
        • Rule Utilitarianism: under which rules are created which usually maximize the benefit to the maximum amount of people. An act which is contrary to t
        • Ok, so I was writing about a real ethical category. Interesting.

          In your article you have an incomplete description of Singer's obligation to assist.

          I was not attempting to discuss ethics in detail; I was simply trying to dissect people's common stance on morals. You are focussing on the actual philosophies and logical consistency, and thus you categorize religious morals as irrelevant. From a practical sociological perspective, this is not useful since religious mores are all many people know. I was att
          • The quote you use claiming "Ayn Rand actually denies Singer's definition entirely" is not in reference to Singer's theory of the Obligation to Assist. You are clearly not focusing on logical consistancy.

            Seeing that you have chosen the path of a troll, I will not waste my time writing anything more on ethical issues in this thread.

            • My, aren't we quick to judge... Did you even read the post?

              The Obligation to Assist, as you have phrased it, is predicated on the notion of a duty to protect others from suffering and death since they have a *right* not to endure suffering. Ayn Rand denies that suffering is a valid basis for rights as I explained; praytell, where is the logical inconsistency?

              You assume that simply because it does not reference the Obligation to Assist directly, or that it does not use the identical phrasing that it has no
    • I'd also like to see First-aid and basic emergency procedures a required part of the curriculum... it really sucks to be the only one at an accident scene who knows first aid when you're one of the casualties.

      Damn straight. I remember lying in the road with a shattered leg after getting hit on my motorcycle and having to tell people to get a blanket for when I go into shock. People want to help, but it's no good when all they can think to do is pull the keys out of your wrecked motorcycle and say "here's

  • by TyrranzzX ( 617713 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @05:25PM (#7425286) Journal
    Firstly, virus writers are people who find challenges in their work; they do it for fun or money; rarely if ever is there a hacker who was motivated to gain their knowledge from feelings of intense hate or greed. It takes a lot of time, talent, and work to learn to hack, and usually somewhere along the line you get a political and social education that, due to the inherently high intellegence you recive, learn to cherish and use.

    Case in point, why hasn't the doomsday virus been released? Think blaster accept it turns your computer into a spam machine and deletes everything accept windows and the virus, for example. Any hacker with sufficient knowledge of how to do this also knows that we live 3 meals from anarchy; if the accounting and shipping systems of a major food chain go down because of your virus and can't be brought back up again, the food won't get delivered. What happens to the inner cities and suburbs? The farms? Other countries?

    They know if they do this that they are indirectly fucking themselves, and many infact fear other hackers doing this. This is the reason for blaster; to show everyone how insecure the system is and all it takes is one person with sufficient knowledge to start ww3.

    Additionally, hackers are extremly social beings. They all come from varied backround but almost all have 2 things in common; they faced conflict at a young age that they overcame, and that they overcame our school system dumbing down intact enough that they still have a love for learning and playing. They love to be social, infact, some 2600 meetings involve people bringing their boxen, and trying to hack eachother to kingdom com, this is the basis of social virus writing she is talking about although some groups may be more militant than others. Some hacker cons also feature this but wherever there's a major con, there is also feds and police but the smaller meetings are unpoliced and patrons (such as stores, becuase face it, they don't hold these at houses that often) usually welcome the groups as they bring buisness. The more friendly groups welcome newbies to learn so long as they don't come too often (even the best of us will go on a homicidal rampage if people ask questions too often, too repeditvly).

    What bothers me is how she ends the article "There are much better ways to use your time online." which shows she knows nothing about the subject she's writing about. Do what else online? But crap? Play games? Watch pr0n and jack off, pirate music and movies, get angry about stuff help political movements? Join a irc group circle jerk where everyone else calls everyone else l33t?

    Writing viruses is a crucial part of our society, if it weren't for these smaller groups we wouldn't know how insecure everything is and if we didn't know how insecure everything is, we wouldn't be trying to secure it. Take Independance Day (Yea, the movie with all those aliens and ships nuking us). Why did we win? Because the aliens had bad computer security, that's why. People call me nuts, but when it boils down to it, do you want to be safe from the pain or do you want to take the pain full on and if you survive it, will you then learn?

    I also had a big problem with this part;

    "I believe that with correctly designed curriculum, talking about ethics can really reduce these behaviours," she said, "they need to learn from the first time they use a computer what is appropriate and what is not." .

    Oh, so it's wrong for me to figure out what's wrong with a computer and fix it, but it's right for microsoft to lie to millions of people and advertise their OS as secure then bribe judges to be nice to them? This bitch has no idea what she's talking about and BBC by publishing her bullshit has further done damage to the reputation of hackers everywhere.

    Finally, to end this on a constructive note, If you want to have a good understanding of hackers and their nature, listen to radio freek america. They do all sorts of hacking on air th
    • Oh, so it's wrong for me to figure out what's wrong with a computer and fix it, but it's right for microsoft to lie to millions of people and advertise their OS as secure then bribe judges to be nice to them?

      She didn't talk about MS lying about the security of their products. I think this is annother example of why we need ethics in the highschool curriculum. Corporate leaders and marketing droids have no qualms about deception, just as some claim to have no qualms about breaking other peoples' property t

    • She is writing about computer issues without knowing the difference between a hacker and a cracker. Tell me again why I should consider this persons opinion as even vaguely in touch with the real situation if she can't do some basic research?
      • Anyone who goes back far enough to have used FidoNet on a BBS probably knows more about it than most slashdotters, and has a helluva lot more realworld experience. Also, the hacker vs. cracker distinction didn't become a Big Anal Deal until relatively recent times (and still is only a Big Anal Deal among a small subset of geeks) -- back then, if you did illicit mucking about with computers, you were most often called a "hacker".

        Second, back in the day, virus authors DID hang out on BBSs, and FidoNet had (a
    • You're a tool. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by NineNine ( 235196 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @06:17PM (#7425531)
      Any hacker with sufficient knowledge of how to do this also knows that we live 3 meals from anarchy; if the accounting and shipping systems of a major food chain go down because of your virus and can't be brought back up again, the food won't get delivered. What happens to the inner cities and suburbs? The farms? Other countries?

      Kid, critical shit isn't connected to the Internet. It's just not. Web servers don't count as mission critical. I don't think that anybody died because of "Blaster". Hackers are *not* that important.

      They all come from varied backround but almost all have 2 things in common; they faced conflict at a young age that they overcame, and that they overcame our school system dumbing down intact enough that they still have a love for learning and playing.

      Yeah, you're describing dorks in school that got beat up. Boo-fuckin'-hoo. If you read the article you'd realize that she said that this is NOT the stereotypical virus writer.

      Writing viruses is a crucial part of our society, if it weren't for these smaller groups we wouldn't know how insecure everything is and if we didn't know how insecure everything is, we wouldn't be trying to secure it

      Insecure from what? Oh yeah, script kiddies telling us how insecure our boxes are. It's a vicious cycle. Security wouldn't be a problem if not for these little spoiled shits with too much time on their hands.

      Take Independance Day (Yea, the movie with all those aliens and ships nuking us). Why did we win? Because the aliens had bad computer security, that's why.

      That was the most ridiculous movie I've ever seen. That doesn't prove anything. And yes, you are nuts. Fucking nuts if you think that the movie "Independence Day" proves anything.

      Oh, so it's wrong for me to figure out what's wrong with a computer and fix it, but it's right for microsoft to lie to millions of people and advertise their OS as secure then bribe judges to be nice to them?

      Last I checked, virus writers aren't fixing anything.

      Kid, you're delusional. Get a job. Get a life. Get laid.
      • Kid, critical shit isn't connected to the Internet. It's just not. Web servers don't count as mission critical. I don't think that anybody died because of "Blaster". Hackers are *not* that important.

        Dumass, so you're telling me that millions of people in corperate america don't have their machines hooked onto the internet? You're telling me every single internet connection of all the fortune 500 companies internal networks are all as secure as the militaries? You're telling me that a virus can't sprea
      • Re:You're a tool. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Reziac ( 43301 )
        LOL! Man, that is so dead on about these kids who are 6 months out of mom's basement and think they know all about how the real world works :)

        The parent post also neglected to realise that super-destructo viruses have a very short lifespan in the wild, because a virus that kills its hosts doesn't spread nearly as well as one that only subtly disables something but leaves the majority of the system in working order. Also, it's a lot more likely to get noticed and targeted for extermination *real* early in i
  • It's good to see Sarah still around after all these years. She's smart and definitely had/has her finger on the pulse of the virii community. I'm guessing she doesnt hang out on the AIS BBS anymore?
  • People write viruses because they are assholes.

    I don't need a Phd to figure that one out.

  • by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @07:13PM (#7425780) Homepage
    This might be a little OT but I think it is important to understand how our View of certain wrongdoers and stereotypes in general stands in the way of finding a solution to the problem.

    Read about [abc.net.au] Scott Atran's Paper [interdisciplines.org] on the psychology of suicide bombers.

    Unless we take the time to understand and remove preconceived moral notions we put ourselves at a disadvantage vis a vis solving the problem by fixing the underlaying issues

    • > Unless we take the time to understand and remove preconceived
      > moral notions

      Would be nice, but it won't happen.

      Thinking about suicide bombers as crazy fucks is just -WAY- too intellectually comfortable. "They're not like us, son, they're /crazy/, etc". I've even seen the word 'brainwashed', in its hollywoodian acception, used to refer to them. What a cosy little way to think about it.

      The truth, which I long suspected and which your link confirms (many thanks for posting it!!) is that they're just
      • I think you are right that this will never happen in the general public, but maybe a better understanding could be reached inside the walls of CIA / NSA / MI5 or whatever.

        I have made a suggestion to Charlie Rose [charlierose.com] the excellent PBS talk host to maybe invite Scott Atran to discuss his findings.

        Well who knows. I think it is important to try and shape the debate in a different direction, however little the impact.

  • by twitter ( 104583 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @07:29PM (#7425857) Homepage Journal
    "When you see a complex virus," she said, "it's come out of the hacking community."

    In her experience many malicious hackers have a borderline criminal view of the world and do not share mainstream ethical norms.

    That's what I'd expect someone from Symantic to say. Because Symantic makes it's money protecting and promoting Microsoft junk, this lady is far from impartial. Good virus writers may be hackers, but blaming hackers for viruses is like blaming people for murder.

    Her view of script kiddies is also simplistic and patronizing. I'd wager that most script kiddies' outside the "mainstream ethical" norm's thought process has more coherence and depth to it than her blather.

    While I don't write viruses and I don't think they are a reasonable form of protest - the moral standpoint is correct. Microsoft is an evil company that produces and forces shoddy, invasive software on the world. They have screwed their business partners, employees, shareholders and customers. Their vision of computing makes TIAA look small and well behaved. Virus writers realize thses things and point them out to people . They exploit holes in Microsoft software to mail out personal information, drive people nuts with adverts and do other things that Microsoft does themselves. They seek to make the public aware of these practices and flaws and have to shout out and make the user notice. They, as most of us here, believe that the world would be better off without Microsoft. People are better off with free software that protects their privacy and control of their machine than they are with Microsoft. Virus writers are pointing out the flaws directly. In deed, these people go out of their way to do it and have no prospect of rewared other than a job well done. Criminal? Perhaps, but so is Microsoft, the convicted anti-trust and IP violator. Condeming the virus writer as criminal and unethical shows a poor understanding of the class.

    • They also apparently install spam relays and launch DDOS attack on anti-spam sites.

      I'm no fan of Microsoft and dubious about any attempt to coerce a large block of people into a sigle pigeonhole - that doesn't mean I'm going to buy the "robin hood" stoy over the "criminal scum". In fact, after the recent slowdowns due to worms and the relentless increase in spam, I'm tending rather strongly toward the latter

  • 1. Deliberately create laws which allow spammers to proliferate.

    2. Deliberately create and enforce the use of shoddy OS software vulnerable to virus attacks.

    3. Deliberately allow the water to boil until the public is going out of their tiny minds. . .

    4. Quietly start introducing draconian controls to the web. People, if not begging for them, will at the very least be more likely to tolerate such measures. (And, yes, that would be, 'Profit!')

    It's getting close, kids. Cuz, you know, Terrorism, blah
  • by SynDragon ( 632901 ) on Saturday November 08, 2003 @10:51PM (#7426693) Journal
    I emailed Sarah godron for a article she wrote entitled Don't let your kids grow up to be hackers. I directed her to numurous url's with that more then explain the difference between a hacker a cracker and a virus wrtie. She basicly told me it was some one else's article. And the media twisted the articles word around. Then she also told me that consumers do not know the difference so they make the article as scary and apealing to the idiotic mind as they can.

    But my main point is here, Every single reporter that I have emailed about making false claims about hackers /crackers and such, Every single one of them told me They did not write the original article it was the works of some one else basicly just using there name. And every single one of them also told me It's what the people want to here.

    So don't take these articles for what they are the media twists them and re writes them all to make them apear sexier, And non of the so claimed authors are truely the real author.

"I will make no bargains with terrorist hardware." -- Peter da Silva

Working...