There are 40 million people in this country, and 40 million points of view. Most of them are extremely conservative - middle-American's would feel right at home here. There's a reason I choose to live in Cape Town - it's the most liberal city in the country. I like to describe it as South Africa's little San Francisco.
And in all your country, S.F. was the only place I felt ... welcomed. The only place where I didn't see anybody being looked down upon, scorned or mistreated. Cape Town bills itself as the "pink capital" of Africa - for it's gay-friendly culture. I'm straight but frankly who somebody else chooses to fuck is absolutely NONE of my concern - provided everyone involved is a consenting adult- it's not the governments concern EITHER.
I've seen where conservative viewpoints lead. Appartheid South Africa was as conservative as they come. One group's morality passing as law. Millions of people suffering to support the wealth of a few. Everything is a trade-off, Obama tries to prevent global warming from becoming a disaster and reduce your dependence on a rare commodity that you need to buy from some of the most volatile places on earth... you complain about the cost. The fact is - Obama said all along, the answer isn't bio-fuel or oil-replacements, it's ENERGY replacement, these are intermediary steps to try and GET there.
More expensive food is a problem... is it really a bigger problem than half the world flooded ? Because we ARE headed to that, it's a scientific consensus - and I tend to trust scientists over people with a stake in business models built on refuting it.
I could almost live with people who were conservatives economically and liberals socially. I don't agree with them - but at least... I don't think they are actively doing harm to other people. I like the fact that in my country - overturning the ban on gay marriage took just one case in the constitutional court. That case never EVER asked what a "founding father" would have thought - because the "call to tradition" is a FALACY - it's NEVER a good argument. It asked one thing "are we treating gays differently" - and found the answer to be yes. Since our constitution specifically prohibits ANY discrimination (by government or private citizens/companies) based on *anything* (and gives a list of examples SPECIFICALLY including sexual orientation) the court had the power to TELL the government to change the law - which they then did.
Here we have an equality court, specifically empowered to deal with cases of discrimination - and punish those guilty of it.
The funny thing is - I'm NOT a liberal, I'm not a conservative either. My views are my own and they are situational and specific. On each issue I hold a view - sometimes that view is liberal, sometimes that view is socialist, sometimes it's libertarian. The only group with whom I cannot find ANY common ground, on ANY issue, EVER - is conservatives.
I was not an adult when apartheid ended. I never got most of the propaganda, I was 9 years old when Nelson Mandela was pardoned. All I remember of my childhood under apartheid I find APPALLING. The government dictated that nobody may marry outside their race and sex-outside-marriage was illegal but the law could ONLY be enforced if the person was of a different race... well I married outside my race. Just 20 years earlier, my marriage would have been illegal.
I live surrounded by the poverty that conservative politics created, and I watch the beneficiaries of the wealth of it shrug of the suffering and sooth their consciences when they throw a small coin in the collection bag at their churches.
Conservatives scare me - because they are so afraid of change - and they should be because I have NEVER met a poor conservative. The conservatives here and in your country are consistently middle-class or higher, they want to preserve the unfairness of the system because it's unfair in THEIR favor. Well... I was born to be one of the lucky ones. I was born white, destined for wealth and success - just because of genetics I played no part in. I feel no shame about being white, but I feel terrible shame about it playing any role in my life - I believe in earning what I achieve and I spent the bulk of my career working in charity, specifically I developed educational software and gave it away for free while receiving a pittance of a salary.
I didn't care about being poor, I got to travel across the globe which was nice - but more importantly - I got to step into classrooms in little towns where people haven't even got televisions - sit a bunch of children in front of computers... and teach them how to use those computers to expand their lesson plans, learn with, study with... have a future.
I'm not ashamed of apartheid because I had no part in it, but if I refuse to accept shame for my ancestor's mistakes - then I sure as hell can't take pride for their achievements either. I do however feel shame for the fact that I benefited from their cruelty. So I dedicate my life to giving some of that benefit back to the people it was stolen from. On every particular issue, I try to find the best way to do so - and no single ideology has it all right. One advantage of travel is that I could see for myself what worked and failed in many places around the world.
So for example there is something I am completely WITH the conservatives on - I despise the idea of gun-control. Criminals don't obey the law, it's practically a job-requirement. Make guns illegal - and the criminals STILL have them - but now, nobody else does. It's not surprising that countries like Sweden are practically crime-free - when every household is legally REQUIRED to own a gun -and be trained in it's use. Nobody breaks into a house if you KNOW the people in that house can, and will, shoot you dead.
I saw how Europe's relaxed attitude to sex and nudity made for a happy, joyful society. I walked along the seine and looked at hundreds of people in the middle of a city suntanning naked and nobody cared... and I envied it and wished my country could be so free.
That's what I despise about conservatives. They claim to believe in freedom, but they define freedom as the right to tell other people how to live. When it comes to freedom - I think the libertarians have it right. Your freedom ENDS where mine begins. You NEVER have the right to tell ME how to live MY life, not in private OR in public. I should have the freedom to walk outside naked. You should NOT have the right to complain about it - the only right YOU have is the right to choose to join me or not.
I believe very strongly that morality and law are separate things, and should never, ever be confused. Morality is important, but it's personal - it cannot, and should not, EVER be legislated... it's NEVER a good idea - not least because it guarantees you'll be discriminating against the people with different morals - and even when they are minorities, they are still a lot of people.
I am in fact entirely consistent in my beliefs, I believe that government's exist to serve ALL the people. Not to control them - but to PROTECT them - from those who would limit their freedom - in any way, shape or form. That includes the freedom to EAT and to breath clean air. I'm sorry - I don't think corporations should have the right to give millions of people respitory problems just to make a buck. And yes, the right to eat IS a right. Even the bible which conservatives so love to refer to states that outright. Leviticans says: "When a man walks across your cornfield, he may take whatever he can eat - but he must not carry any away. You may not pick or sell the last of the grape-harvest, it shall be for the widows and the orphans" (Sorry, I learned the bible in Afrikaans, this is my translation and I know it's not quite exact but the meaning is entirely intact and if you look it up you'll see there is no attempt at confusion or deception here).
Well, we don't live in a world where most people are farmers anymore. We don't live in a world where we can feed all the poor by saying they can eat what food they can carry in their stomaches from our land (the limit is also clear- they can't carry any off to sell it, it's a right to eat, not to prosper on other people's labors) so we need new ways to ensure that right - in line with our different world. We now have vast national economies, much of which is NOT about food production. The only practical way I can see that we can ensure that right to eat in our world of today - is through the government that runs those economies. We can't do it all with voluntary charity... there's just not enough of us left who have anything to give, and many of them are to selfish to part with any of it.
It is interesting that the the conservatives - bible-thumpers everywhere I've met them... ignore all the bits of the bible that actually make sense. They scream about the bits they can use to control people, the moralities of sex obsess them... but the duties of forgiveness, the right to eat, that whole "turn-the-other-cheek" thing... they rationalize away.
We've gone so far off-topic now that I think it's getting ridiculous though. I am one of the privileged, and it hurts me to see people dying around the world because they had the bad luck to be born in the wrong place, and it angers me to see people ignoring that, or rationalizing it all away to retain their privilege. I doubt I'll ever make you reconsider your views - I've made concessions during this conversation where I felt you raised valid points - I've not seen you concede even a single thought toward me. I've not once seen you say "well - you may have a point there". You can't have a useful debate with somebody who won't even CONSIDER the possibility that they may be wrong on some points. They may not amend their views, but they ought to at least question them - and maybe seek more evidence before choosing what to believe. How far have you traveled ? Have you seen anything of the world with your own eyes ? Trust me, what the media shows you and the reality have the following in common: fuck all.
I make an effort to learn, to form opinions about issues based on what worked around the world, considering what may tripwire it in a different country and how it should be amended for different circumstances. You have made up your mind that the system of healthcare you got is good enough, and you ignore all evidence and complaints to the contrary... you say most people express "Satisfaction" with it... but have most of them got grounds for comparison ?
Everybody is satisfied when they don't know any better. I used to be satisfied with my countries approach to censorship - until I went to countries that chooses NOT to censor sex, and saw that it made a healthier, happier society. I'm not going to respond to this thread further... because you cannot debate with somebody who is merely telling you their views, it only becomes a rational argument when both of you are trying to LEARN from one another.
