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Journal Marxist Hacker 42's Journal: GeoSwan's latest Journal and the nature of Political Reality 41

Journal by Marxist Hacker 42
A fair warning to start out with: When I say Political Reality, I'm NOT talking about the scientific universe, the multiverse that surrounds it, or some unknowable potential singular reality. I'm talking about the reality of perceptions- and how each of us come from a different set of experiences and perceptions.

GeoSwan recently wrote his surrender to Mike Hawk, who is a right-wing warrior so sure that his political reality is correct that he leaves little room form discussion. His responses seem to baffle any form of political analysis- he's a libertarian and an extreme neo-conservative, yet he's willing to live in a city and state where local taxes are extreme. He wants rights for himself- but he's willing to give up the rights of others for security.

I posit that Mike Hawk baffles people because he's living with a very different set of presumptions and experiences than the rest of us. It's likely never been so poor that the mismanagement and misdeeds of others affect the survival of his family. It's likely that life to him is a game- because it's never had to become more serious- at least until September 11, 2001. I would not be surpised to find that he is in the correct socio-economic class to have had family of friends die in the WTC attack. If ANY of these are true- his responses begin to make sense. For him, the spilliage over of the Islamic Civil War is a real threat- and the economy simply isn't. Government destruction of his wealth through taxes is a much larger threat than unemployment. Losing profit margin to him is a much bigger threat than competition for the same job from overseas.

In other words, he's living in an entirely different political reality than the rest of us- he can afford to hold the opinions he does.
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GeoSwan's latest Journal and the nature of Political Reality

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  • But there is always the possibility that it is your personal experiences that lack the capability to label, package and define me. I won't discourage anyone from trying though. I find everyone's attempts to be entertaining.

    I have no doubt that our personal experiences have been very different (I have never lived in the Pacific Northwest, I am not a Catholic, etc.), but your journal here misses the mark badly.
    • So tell us how- so that we may better understand where you are coming from. After all- if we don't know where you're coming from, we stand little if any chance of understanding what you say.
      • You can check out Mike Hawk's biography at your local Borders after its complete. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter, does it? This was just another attempt to paint me as outside the mainstream, which is an ever more popular tactic [usatoday.com] Democrats are using against those they don't agree with. (Some have wondered if they can drum up someone who will say Bolton was a bully in elementary school.) Attack the idea itself, don't whine that I'm not very nice.

        If your opponent has a conscience, then follow Gan
        • You can check out Mike Hawk's biography at your local Borders after its complete. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter, does it?

          You'd be surprised how much it DOES matter- I'm not kidding when I say we live in completely different realities. Politically, intelligence is almost defined by acceptance of this fact- and the ability to listen and understand where other people are coming from.

          This was just another attempt to paint me as outside the mainstream, which is an ever more popular tactic [usatoday.
          • Politically, intelligence is almost defined by acceptance of this fact- and the ability to listen and understand where other people are coming from.

            That's not political intelligence. Political intelligence is understanding what needs to be done and knowing how to do it given certain political and economic realities. Tolerance is the ability/desire to listen and understand where other people are coming from, even if you don't agree with them. And as I posted earlier:
            Tolerance is the virtue of a man w
            • That's not political intelligence. Political intelligence is understanding what needs to be done and knowing how to do it given certain political and economic realities. Tolerance is the ability/desire to listen and understand where other people are coming from, even if you don't agree with them. And as I posted earlier: Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions. -- G.K. Chesterton

              Without the ability/desire to listen and understand where people are coming from- you have NO idea what the politic
              • Your post definitely stands alone, for better or worse. My only comment is: All praise our new God Elaenor Roosevelt, granter of human rights. Without her and the UN, we would all be lost in the storm, without guidance, or rights of any kind.
                • According to her own autobiography, she merely articulated her traditional Anglican values taught her by her parents. I suppose that could explain the emphasis on rights for women that support rather than destroy families and motherhood. If you'd actually read it, you'd find it's quite conservative by modern standards- but it's also quite fitting as an enumeration of God given rights that we are supposed to believe in and that our laws are supposed to follow (Membership in the UN REQUIRES countries to pos
  • Mike Hawk is just a typical blowhard who believes everything he says is perfect [slashdot.org]. I'm guessing he's spent a lot of time listening to conservative radio.

    You can find blowhards everywhere. They're not limited to one specific political persuasion or physical location. There's nothing special about the way they were raised or the environment they grew up. They tend to be fairly young and inexperienced in life. They also tend to be less intelligent than the average person. They merely parrot the stronges
    • Like I told MH42, I encourage your guessing.

      You are wrong about talk radio though, unless you count sports. And I catch a bit of Air America because it shares a station with Clippers broadcast. I am sure we have different experiences too. I am not a self-described army brat instinctively rebelling against my parents.

      But all of this about parroting views is strong words from someone who requires permission to post in their journal. And quite a bit of self-righteous nonsense too. Nothing like physi
      • What makes you think that Democrats can't serve in the Army? Oh yeah, you're a moron. You don't think.

        Most people can post in my journal. However, I take exception to Anonymous Cowards and morons like you.
        • What makes you think that Democrats can't serve in the Army?

          Actually I didn't even imply that. Jeez. Reading is important here folks.

          And "most people" can't post in your journal. Lately you have only been allowing friends and friends of friends. This means that unless you specifically whitelist someone, they can't post. There are hundreds of thousands of slashdot id's. Your friends list isn't that long. Don't let facts stand in your way though. You guys are too much.

          Don't get me wrong, I c
          • Let's see here. Someone can't follow a conversation. There were three lies in his response. Here's the evidence:

            My Cock: I am not a self-described army brat instinctively rebelling against my parents.
            Me: What makes you think that Democrats can't serve in the Army? Oh yeah, you're a moron. You don't think.
            My Cock: Actually I didn't even imply that. Jeez. Reading is important here folks.

            You assumed that since my parents were in the Army, that they were Republicans. Therefore, I was rebelling
      • But all of this about parroting views is strong words from someone who requires permission to post in their journal.
        Nothing like physically shutting people out who might disagree to create an echo chamber.
        When did you allow anyone else to post in yours? I looked at yours and it does not allow posting of comments. Sounds like you're just as much afraid of other people's ideas - or that someone might disagree with you - as you clain the other person is.
    • What I'm trying to get at is that blowhards, as you term them, are usefull- they serve to make US smarter. Once you understand where they are coming from, you can begin to move your own views back to the center in a way that doesn't harm your own value system.

      To that end, it would be more usefull to engage Mike Hawk and those like him than ignore him- for he may have different experiences that WE can learn from.

  • I would not be surpised to find that he is in the correct socio-economic class to have had family of friends die in the WTC attack.

    What is the "correct socio-economic class"?

    Did he have a nephew working as a bus boy at Windows on the World?

    Was his brother one of the court officers (bailiffs) who ran from 60 Centre St to try and help their brother officers at the Court of Claims?

    Was his uncle a union elevator starter who stayed inside the towers trying to rescue people trapped in elevators?

    Was his

    • Little Eichmanns worked in those buildings.

      Of course he is wrong about me knowing someone in those buildings that day. I do know people who work in the FC though, then and still. Of course, none of that has any bearing on if I felt/feel for those victims, or my opinions on islam, terrorism, or Canadians for that matter. I think his point was that HE is not in a socio-economic class that allows him to care about those people, related or not. Its not what MH42 says sometimes, its what he means.
    • What is the "correct socio-economic class"?

      Nobody as poor as I am- even the busboys in Windows on the World earned more in a day than most people in the rest of the country see in a month. There's a reason why the omelettes there were $1000...

      For that matter, from the point of view of this small time farm boy from Pratum, OR (don't even TRY to find it on a map, it ain't there) just the rents in New York State mean that even the worst paid union elevator man, bailiff, insurance company rep, or anybody el

      • Nobody as poor as I am- even the busboys in Windows on the World earned more in a day than most people in the rest of the country see in a month. There's a reason why the omelettes there were $1000...

        For that matter, from the point of view of this small time farm boy from Pratum, OR (don't even TRY to find it on a map, it ain't there) just the rents in New York State mean that even the worst paid union elevator man, bailiff, insurance company rep, or anybody else who died there needed to earn about twice

        • First, if everyone in NYC was living so great while it sucked so bad for you, why didn't you pick up and move?

          Who has the money to do that? It costs to move you know.

          Second, if you believe that the Mexican bus boy in Windows on the World was living great, your smoking something illegal. There is a reason that he's living five or six people in a windowless basement room. Believe me. He isn't eating caviar.

          Well, that's true- but completely beside the point.

          Third, even if you are right about how much
      • Doesn't seem like Pratum [microsoft.com] is too hard to find.

        Too bad Google Maps didn't know:)
        • It would need a zip code to be in Google Maps. I'm actually surprised the TerraServer had it....especially since the entire town consits of a few farms, a handfull of housing, a grade school, a fire department, a single church (Mennonite), and a co-op on two campuses.
  • The way I see it choosing not to reply to Mr Hawk's hate-mongering is not a surrennder.

    He admits he doesn't really read what people write.

    And even when he does try to read what other people write, he has proven incapable of responding to what was actually written.

    He doesn't feel that most of us are worthy of making a good faith effort to understand whether we have made a valid point.

    He doesn't believe in acknowledging mistakes.

    It is Mr Hawk, I think, who has surrendered. So long as he has closed his m

    • Mr Hawk is welcome to demonstrate civility, and an open-mind, at any time. I'd be happy to engage in a dialogue with him, at that point.

      Actually, in your latest journal you claim this is no longer the case. So either you are lying here, or you are lying there. How can I engage is discourse with someone who would do that?

      YOU should be the one concerned with learning something new.

      • Mr Hawk is welcome to demonstrate civility, and an open-mind, at any time. I'd be happy to engage in a dialogue with him, at that point.

        Actually, in your latest journal you claim this is no longer the case. So either you are lying here, or you are lying there. How can I engage is discourse with someone who would do that?

        I do not believe you are interested in discourse at all, first by being rudely insulting to others, and second by the fact you do not permit comments to your own journal entries. If you

        • Excuse me, I was wrong. For some reason the system was not showing me any means to post comments when reading Mike Hawk's journal. I am not sure why when I went back to check it then did provide a method to do so. Perhaps I have something set wrong.
        • There you have it folks. You lied about me. Your whole post was a lie. Your retraction is meaningless. You come off like the LA Times. I fear no comments, and everyone fears mine. Yup, this post was pretty insulting to you, and yup you deserve it.

          Replace Mike Hawk with Xopher and Cyrano and you'd have a made GREAT POST.
        • I agree with your conclusion that Mr Hawk's posting record shows a fundamental disrespect for dialogue and other tools of democracy. Take a look at his shameful deceitfulness [slashdot.org] here in a JE he entitled -- wait for it -- "An honest question".

  • Mike Hawk [is]... a libertarian and an extreme neo-conservative

    I believe this representation to be incorrect, as the two terms are mutually exclusive. Someone who is libertarian generally wants the government to leave people alone. A neo-con wants various government controls over a lot of things. I believe the two are mutually exclusive.

    I can probably go through a list of some of the typical neo-con issues, most of which would be diametrically opposed to by the typical libertarian (such as myself), but

  • I was going to let you get away with this one, but its too lame. I just can't.

    He wants rights for himself- but he's willing to give up the rights of others for security.

    The problem is that claim rings really hollow coming from someone who advocates that very thing. You have many times advocated giving up the economic rights of others to the benefit of your economic security. Whatev.

    • I was going to let you get away with this one, but its too lame. I just can't...
      The problem is that claim rings really hollow coming from someone who advocates that very thing...

      Lol. Lol. Lol.

      Let me remind readers that Mr Hawk has repudiated the idea that holding a consistent point of view is important. [slashdot.org] Personal selfishness trumps all he says.

      No.

      There are actions that benefit me and ones that do not. The only position that I hold consistent to is that I want me and my way of life to be susta

      • Thats the thing, I still don't value consistency in the way you use it. Nor was that a complaint.

        My post above points out something specific to MH42, the notion of economic freedom being an expression of freedom itself. He can choose to address it or not. I suspect he will, because he will see that it is a problem.

        Geo, you are officially getting destroyed all over slashdot now, and you are bringing down a bunch of people with you. Why don't you work on taking back your journal first, and then worr
        • My post above points out something specific to MH42, the notion of economic freedom being an expression of freedom itself. He can choose to address it or not. I suspect he will, because he will see that it is a problem.

          And my answer- economic freedom is not possible. Ever. In any system. Try to allow it, and parasites will simply evolve to remove it. Try to enforce it, and you'll lose it because somebody will want a different definition of freedom than you do. To me, economic security IS freedom.

          Thi

        • Geo, you are officially getting destroyed all over slashdot now, and you are bringing down a bunch of people with you. Why don't you work on taking back your journal first, and then worry about butting into a discussion between MH and MH42 when you have accomplished that?

          Gee! Thanks for the warning! It is pretty scary to think that slashdot officials will destroy me! And what are these "slashdot officials" going to destroy me for? For watching what other people post, and telling people when they

        • Thats the thing, I still don't value consistency in the way you use it.

          Oh yeah? Well, it would be very interesting to read what way you thought I value consistency.

          The kind of consistency I value is the state when a person's actions and beliefs don't contradict one another. So, what kind of consistency are you going to tell us you value?

    • The problem is that claim rings really hollow coming from someone who advocates that very thing. You have many times advocated giving up the economic rights of others to the benefit of your economic security. Whatev.

      Except for one small thing- I don't demand the rights for myself that I'm asking others to give up. For instance: I believe we should have a Maximum Wage Law in this country, set at some x ammount of minimum wage, with all income above that taxed at 100%. I have NO compunction against givin
  • We, the rest of him, are so much accustomed to being in a protected area- like a sanctuary for a nearly extinct species, or too much spoiled in a tepid water. We have to be exposed by more severe, more harsh reality as he is facing.

    Mike Hawk tells us a little bit from outside the window. First off we seem to need examine whether we tend to narrower the window to open. Apparently he knows more than the rest of him. He has read more books than the rest of him, he has experienced more than the rest of him,

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