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Mandrake Meeting with Amiga 103

hasse wrote in to tell us that Mandrake, co-developer of Enlightenment is meeting with Amiga. Amiga Central quotes him saying "So sometime next week I'm going to meet with the VP of Engineering at Amiga. That should be interesting. I wonder if I can get them interested enough in enlightenment that they would be willing to donate programmers to the project. "
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Mandrake Meeting with Amiga

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Well, they do have a Kernel at their hands (the Linux Kernel), and with so much source code available (including the c library and X as a windowing system, furthermore all those windowmanagers) that whole AmigaOS thing merely looks like a minor porting issue. Btw i didnt like what Amiga did with QNX, either, this was really not the way to go, since it could result in 2 rivalling OSes, which is of course good for a large group like PC users , but with such a small group like Amiga users ... well ... it means splitting developer effort and so on. Less productivity as a result - but thats just my opinion on all this :)
  • by Anonymous Coward
    xanim sucks. Not Linux.

    xanim loads the entire AVI into memory first, decompresses every frame (requiring enough memory to store all the decompressed frames which probably causes your computer to swap), and then plays it back. Kind of reminds me of the way animation players used to work on the Amiga :)

    It also requires superfluous copies of the pixels to and from the X server.

    Future animation/video apps on Linux will write directly to the framebuffer and will (hopefully) be written more intelligently so that they can play back directly from hard disk. In short, the fact that xanim is NOT a good program for playing back video clips (it works fine for short animations) has nothing to do with the Linux kernel itself.

    xanim would suck on BeOS too.
  • http://slashdot.org/comm ents.pl?sid=99/07/08/208226&cid=38 [slashdot.org].

    See? I called it on the first story.

    Amiga is only a theme for E now. And that's it.

  • xanim loads the entire AVI into memory first, decompresses every frame (requiring enough memory to store all the decompressed frames which probably causes your computer to swap), and then plays it back.

    Try "xanim +f <filename>"

    That works just fine for me. (I've played 20-30 Mb files with instant startup.)

    I don't know about the extra pixel copying thing, though.


  • It seems like there has been six Amiga stories here just in the last two weeks. In comparison, before that it took half a year to come up with just as many Amiga stories.

    Something is cooking with the Amiga (and keeping up with comp.sys.amiga.misc is next to impossible).

    But to stay on topic: I thought Amiga said in their tech brief that they would build something new on top of X. I am not sure I see E fit in there. Then again; you never know when Amiga changes its mind again :-).
  • From reading the fallout from the whole Mindcraft episode, I think that the criticism of the TCP/IP stack is that it's not threaded. I read somewhere else that this is either being fixed now, or has already been fixed.

  • This is a prime example of what Linux brings to the table and why the decision on Amiga's part to go with Linux, an advanced and mature desktop platform, was better than the decision to go with QNX, a rarely-used desktop platform with not much general-purpose software and a shallow bench of programmers to draw off of.

    I thought QNX was POSIX-compliant?

    I wouldn't be suprised if GNOME wound up on QNX fairly quickly.

    Phil Fraering "Humans. Go Fig." - Rita
  • Ugh, I hope you were joking. If not, he was talking about Mandrake, the Enlightenment co-developer. A person, not the distribution. (Who existed long before the linux mandrake distribution was around btw).
  • E doesn't really *have* a look. It's customisable to the point where you can completely change the look of it. Compare absolute e to the standard
    theme for an example of what I mean.

    What I'd love to see is a trained graphical designer spending a few days making a *really* nice theme for Enlightenment.

    I'm not knocking the work others have done, some of the themes are fantastic, and most are made by friends of mine, I'm just curious to know what an artist could do.

    Interestingly enough, the guy who designed the amiga UI for QNX mentioned that he'd have to try running E, since someone ported his work to it.

    I wonder what it'll take to bribe him into doing some work on a theme. :)
  • I don't understand all the anti-slashdot commentary that seems to accompany every article. If you don't like it then why are you here?

    I mean, yeah, it's obviously a very linux-biased site but so what? There is a great big internet out there right? I'm sure you can find something that suits you better or start your own site and post whatever articles interest you.

  • This is a prime example of what Linux brings to the table and why the decision on Amiga's part to go with Linux, an advanced and mature desktop platform, was better than the decision to go with QNX, a rarely-used desktop platform with not much general-purpose software and a shallow bench of programmers to draw off of.
  • And with whom, exactly, is Amiga competing? Who would bother reacting to a product which has been in development for almost a decade? Get real; Amiga is a threat to no one. Plus, Mandrake is a good guy, and he would not have publicized the meeting if it were a private one. Amiga is probably loving the attention.
  • I don't know which I find more repulsive, the fact that someone seems to have some bashing campaign against a nice guy, or the fact that they're going about it in a pathetic way. First of all, I'm doubting anyone at QNX has the need to be anonymous. Anyone I've dealt with from that company has been fairly open. In addition, the writer of this post obviously has no idea what QNX has in their product line, since they very obviously sell a GUI that works on their OS, and in fact have been working on a fairly advanced GUI for the Amiga-type (although no longer associated with Amiga) project.
  • I think I finally figured it out: The ENTIRE reason Amiga Inc. chose Linux for the kernel was so they could get free publicity from being on Slashdot twice a week.

    My take: http://flyingmice.com/squid/ amiga/amiga_articles.shtml [flyingmice.com]

  • we're working on all of these things very carefully. we've come a LONG way in just a few years. you have to look where we've come from and look towards where we're going - as well as where we are. besides, you can't judge multimedia performance of everything just by xanim - one app does not a platorm make
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • hi. clearly you weren't a participant in the rest of the email that I exchanged with him (seeing as the participants would have been myself and bill bull) - you decide.

    as far as the amiga on slashdot thing, my point (which I made to rob, also) is that I thought it was really cool stuff, but didn't think the rest of slashdot would think so, too.

    As far as what I say on my web site, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to say whatever I want on there.
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • I would like to point out that my actual words on my site were that you could judge for yourself - then I went on to speculate. and then bill bull read my website and asked me to take a few things off of it. I'm not sure if I phrased it properly but most of what people take the wrong way is the conjecture bits I draw. nowhere did I say I went up to interview at QNX, that's just what places like amiga central draw from it. my point in my return post above was more the fact that this wasn't the only bit of conversation that we had, and you don't know what else was said (and frankly it isn't much of your business unless either bbull or myself chooses to make it your business). But then again it's easy to make jabs as an anonymous coward.
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • by Mandrake ( 3939 ) <mandrake@mandrake.net> on Tuesday July 20, 1999 @01:06PM (#1793817) Homepage Journal
    Yes, I will be going out to see people at amiga.
    No, I don't know what we're talking about, mostly I want to see what they've been up to (I'm very interested).
    I haven't said ANYTHING but that on my web site, I don't think. most everything else is speculation. I do find it funny how facts evolve on slashdot.
    Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
    Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
  • by db ( 3944 )
    Wow -- Amiga's new UI is looking pretty good already -- Imagine of Geoff starts working on it, too...

    Dave Brooks (db@amorphous.org)
  • Well I've played quake III test with X and it was great, does it count? It was fullscreen, but so is diablo in windows..


  • if linux is an advanced mature desktop platform, where's Quicken, Photoshop, AOL, even one educational program for the kiddies and even one flight simulator game? The mac has all this stuff and alot more.
  • I think their plan is to create a system for linux users to put on their tv's. You have the extreme configurability with no UI style guide, you have a chip which lists emulating other platforms (a hot topic here) as its main feature, and the whole concept of amiga objects in java only makes sense if you already have a PC to network with. This is all cool stuff but I don't think people who never bought a computer before will want this.
  • Unfortunately, FUD has been around so long because it works, and this was pure and unadulterated FUD.

    His argument boiled down to: There are three different stacks out there. Microsoft's, which sucks, but there's Big Money behind it, so it'll get better. BSD's, which is great, and there's Big Money behind it, so it'll get better. And Linux's, which is mediocre, and without MS or Sun bankrolling it, how's it going to go anywhere?

    Uncertainty and doubt, in a nutshell.

    Linux never had any money in the past and it got this far, there's no reason to assume that's going to change. Plus all indications are that there will be money in the future. With the RHAT IPO, and Amiga/Gateway moving in, and all the other hardware and distribution vendors hiring programmers, there's no reason to believe that there's no commitment to Linux development. Even its TCP/IP stack.
  • Linux has been running on 68k Amigas for quite a while.
  • He was probably referring to this mail by Holger Kruse [flyingmice.com], author of the Miami TCP/IP stack and GUI for Amiga.
    I don't know if his opinion concerning Linux problems with newer Internet features is right, but it sounds relatively credible (at least it did to LeFaivre).
  • nuff respect to E but I want new stuff

    who else feels this way ?
    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
  • What makes you think there will be any problem running linux on an amiga? It runs on almost every PC platform (Mac, Sun, alpha, Intel, SGI, and more probably)! Linux runs great on Intel machines but that doesn't mean it's optimized for them. Most code optimization comes from compilers which may or may not be optimized for pentiums...
  • Well, um, that's just a window manager for X, right? Should theoretically be able to run it on Amiga Classics, but most Amigans don't spend a lot of time in X. It's one of those painful things we only do when we have to run something that needs X. ;-)

  • Would this be possible?

  • Get some facts on QNX. It is not a desktop platform; although it can be used on a desktop system as well, it is really targetted at embedded systems. It has been doing this for 15 years or more - you can't call anyone in the market that long "rarely used". They have an X-Windows compatible/compliant GUI in 32K - the only shallowness I can see in that is the depth of the useless bloat.
    Give me a Linux(or BSD, or whatever) distribution that includes a modular Unix kernel, X windows, a web server, a graphical web browser, TCP/IP and PPP, some graphics demos, and fits with lots of space free on a single 1.4Mb floppy disk.
    Oh, you can't? Damn, you should have used QNX then.
  • Any lack of discretion here would be on Amiga Central's part - that's where the quote originated.
  • I wonder if Amiga will include source code with their os, or just pretend there is nothing wrong with violating the GPL.

    They only have to include source to any modifications they make to the kernel, or other GPLed software. If they write a brand new operating environment over the top of the kernel, they're not obliged to include any source code. Of course, you may perceive that they are violating the spirit of the GPL by doing that, or taking advantage of the free software community. However, that is a different matter, nothing to do with violating the GPL.

  • I read this on that news page also:
    Rick LeFaivre has posted this encouraging note on the newsgroups, assuring us that they are well aware of the technical concerns being raised by Amigans (such as TCP/IP problems and choice of GFX card). It will have a floppy drive, BTW ;)

    What exactly *are* the problems with the linux TCP/IP stack? I'm hoping that all the FUD that that Amiga Modern Internet guy spewed a week or so ago didn't take home for Amiga users. From what I gathered, it was complete BS.

    the only thing I can think is that it doesn't work as fast as NT's on quad CPU systems with 4 Ethernet cards (not your average Amiga system). After all, why would linux be the fastest growing server OS if it had a *bad* stack?

    I don't personally know much about the Linux TCP/IP stack, but it really doesn't seem like there's anything terribly wrong with it that it can't function as a single user, home system (or even a midrange server). I personally think these Amiga zealots need to take another look around. Linux doesn't need them at all. On the other hand however, Amiga *cannot* survive with out Linux

    btw, the "note" that was pointed to didn't mention the TCP/IP stack itself
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • sorry :(
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • don't forget the VooDoo1-3, the Voodoo1-3 and of couse the VoOdOo1-3
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • From the technology brief [amiga.com]:

    Finally, there will be a suite of end-user
    workspaces, including a new Amiga Workbench being designed at Amiga. There are already a number of interesting desktop environments available for Linux, and it is our intent to contribute the Amiga workbench to the open source movement, and encourage the creative Amiga and Linux communities to modify, enhance, replace, and generally get creative when it comes to next-generation desktop environments (we believe that one of the disadvantages of today's Windows and Macintosh personal computers is the "closed" nature of their desktop environments).

    I think they want a Window Manager and a File Manager. They have choosen him because he has experience on window managers.
  • Sometimes open sourcer's forget that the entire world doesn't behave like they do. I'm pretty sure Amiga won't be too happy that an early exploratory meeting with a potential supplier has been broadcast to the world. Possibly sacrificing Amiga's competitive advantage by illuminating their position and strategy.

    There _is_ a place and time for discretion.
  • I think that the interresting part of this story is the fact that Amiga is actually talking to the Linux community. I doubt that they really will donate programmers to work on E, I'd rather think they would develop something new, possibly with the help of Mandrake. (Or new in the sense that they base it on E and rename it). IMHO E wouldn't be such a bad choice for a new Amiga especially since they have borrowed a lot of elements from the classic Amiga workbench. (it's certainly my preffered WM as an Amiga/Linux user)
  • And PPC accelerated Amigas as well. The port isn't as stable as the 68k one though (yet).
  • I don't think that E was ever mentioned in the article. They could have been meeting about Amiga using imlib. Also, since QNX offered Mandrake a job, it may have had something to do with that.
  • There seems to be no reason for Amiga. I do not intend to cause a flame war, I am just curious. They are using the Linux Kernel, that will be connected to an X Server and window manager of some sort, so that people can use the Amiga tools on a G4 port of the Linux Kernel? Why don't they just port their apps to Linux. Hello, they can add to the community, or they can reinvent the UI for Linux. Why? What is really going on?
  • There have been patches for some time now, but it has not found its way into the main distrobution. I beleive Linus wanted the new stack to go into 2.4. Also the MindCraft debate is skewed by not putting in patches to make Linux faster, while using SP5 which was not released yet. The important thing is that there are many solutions for the faults in Linux that are compilable in the kernel which is open source. NT patches are not available except to Microsoft employees that can see the source files. Linux could probably be patched to go faster than NT. Most of the problems in the kernel have solutions, but Linus dosn't want just solutions, but waits for the best solution, which is not how MS works.

    Why does Amiga need super high throughput from the kernel. 1 fast ethernet card or 1 gigabit ethernet card will surely suffice for video editing. I do not think many file servers could keep up witha faster system (in general)
  • I fully agree. It just looks like the last dregs of this company that refuses to die are trying to rally the remaining troops for one last stand.

    Does the world really need it?

    It isn't even the Amiga. It's Amiga flavored Linux. IMO, that's even worse than another Amiga. As you said, they should donate their time to the Linux community and get away from the whole 'Amiga' pretense. Sheesh.

  • It and everyone else are carrying on like it is the Great Amiga coming down out of the steppes to save and protect the faithful from the club-wielding barbarians knocking their battering rams on the gates of Kiev.

    The new Amiga-folk are doing nothing active to counter the impression that they are or want to be a continuation of the old Amiga legacy.

  • Do we need ANYTHING more on TOP of X. When will be the day I hear the words INSTEAD of X?
  • The IP stack might be okay, but the graphics card choice would be limited to lets see, A voodoo3, or a voodoo 3 or mabye a Voodoo^3 With the 3 up in the air like that?
  • I'm not trying to be a anti-linux troll or anything, but if Amiga looked at Be and QNX, how could they possibly choose Linux. Nothing against the OS but the multimedia performance in a word sucks. Running two instances of the Forsaken main.avi video gives xanim a heart attack with the first instance starting to stutter. It doesn't have 3D sound or any of that cools stuff, and has X for graphics and we all know that X could never handle even a simple game like Diablo.
    I though Amiga was supposed to be a media powerhouse.

    For those who question my performance claims, here is my config on that video test.
    main.avi is a 218KB/s AVI, I'm running KDE 1.1.1, XFree on a RivaTNT using nVidias new drivers on a 400MHz Celeron. When I start up the second instance of the AVI, the first one starts skipping. With 4 instances the first one is at 1 fps. Under Windows I can run 5 instances with no dropped frames.
  • Do you really want to see another Window Manager? Amiga is doing the right thing, and with the addition of the Amiga Engineers to the Enlightenment effort, it'll only mean we all benefit, Amiga or not.
  • Let me see if I have this straight--Amiga have decided that, since they can't make their new box truly different, they will settle for making it look different? O-o-o-o-o-okay. Well then there now. It's ... an approach, I suppose.
  • AmigaOS is going to sit on the Linux Kernel, so this is a good start for porting enlightenment. The thing gets tricky if they decide to use something else than X as their windowing system. If they stick to X, however, I dont see a problem. I wrote a bit more about this as an AC, you can read it
    here [slashdot.org]if you want
  • (FYI: The post you replied to was from me, not logged in)
    I have to admit that Ive only recently been following Amiga development (I stopped since when my good old A500 died). So I dont know much about the backstage at Amiga, but do you really think it is a wise idea to first go with Linux, then say, oh Linux was just fine for a startup, now we will flip back to QNX? This would mean that all developer effort based on Amiga/Linux is nullified. From what I read the last weeks, the Linux kernel was chosen instead of the QNX one as "official" Amiga environment, and not just put back on the waiting queue of "Kernels and operating environments we will switch to as soon as the new Amiga is established".
    Please correct me if Im wrong.
  • I am so hoping this isn't all going to turn out vaporware.

    It seems every few years the moons of Zendar align and another amiga is announced, with all the fanfare of "the second coming" to boot.

    Problem is, the moons don't stay aligned for long enough for the incantation to be completed and the amiga promptly evaporates into a cloud of vapor.

    Please be real this time. :)

  • Gimp [gimp.org]
    X-Accountant (Quicken Clone) [hmc.edu]
    Quicken for linux? [slashdot.org]
    Flight Gear [flightgear.org]

    One educational program:
    Nightfall [uni-heidelberg.de]

    look before you speak, this took my 3 minutes to find. :)
  • Lets talk about maturity, you can't even sign your name.

The unfacts, did we have them, are too imprecisely few to warrant our certitude.