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MacMafia 141

morex writes " Check this out it is a link to a funny Macintosh hater page.. Hell they even run Red Hat:) and have the logo posted all over the page... " Interesting form of anti-advocacy. More clever than most.
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  • There's a nice big Microsoft "Get everything you need to evaluate Microsoft Windows NT Workstation 4.0" banner on the top of the news page on that site. Go figure.
  • Posted by k150:

    why do we (I) like the macos -- the gui. and OS8.5.1 is really good. i haven't crashed more than 10 times a month for the past several months now, and much less some months...

    and i ALWAYS know what causes teh crash. on the other hand, they replaced a library p90 i was using on campus... when i sat down in front of the NEW machine (i saw the jerky pc man swiftly replacing them yesterday) i noticed it was locked. so i got a my ballpoint pen and hit reset (ctrl-alt-del didn't do anything)

    after that, i noticed on the flying ASCII that it was a PII/400... and the logon said "NT4"... okay. so i opened communicator, went to, and two pages later, bam! it locked HARD on me. reset, restart, open the browser again, and same result.

    let me say that this doesn't happen on any of my work or home G3's... so hahaha.

  • The Eric Conspiracy wrote:

    ever try to get a 10 gig hard disk running on Linux???

    Yep, I tried that. Opened up the case, stuck the 10.5gig hard disk in, connected the cables, screwed the screws, booted a Redhat CD, told it which drive to use, and watched it format and install.

    Sorry, was something supposed to go wrong?

  • I'm not sure what you're saying. I have Quake 2 installed on this computer, and I even play it sometimes, and I've never bought a Microsoft product in my life.
  • No, I've never paid a single cent for a Microsoft product in my life. I've never bought a whole computer. I've never owned Microsoft DOS, I've never licensed Microsoft Windows, nor any of their office or development software. I don't own any Microsoft hardware.

    I don't see what's wrong with you, here. I have Linux on this machine, and I have Quake and Quake 2 installed.
  • Yeah, I did once have DOS installed on one of my computers. It was a 120 MHz Pentium, and I still have that copy of Novell DOS 7, but Quake 2 wasn't out back then.
  • At 10 crashes per month this guy isn't even doing very well for MacOS. I'll grant, I still crash occasionally (probably on the order of two to three times per month). But I'm the kind of psychotic user who does stupid things to his machine just to see if it'll work. I've fried far more Linux installations accidentally than I've killed MacOS installations while doing something dumb. That's the thing; MacOS may crash a lot but at least it's resilient and bounces back quickly, something which can't be said for Windoze, and even Linux doesn't have it to the same degree in my experience; crashes might be rare but they take hours, even days to recover from whereas the average MacOS crash is fixed within minutes.

    And hey, even if he's getting ten crashes a month, that's far, far better than the average Windoze installation.

    As for why the guy's crashing so often, it's probably because he's using Kaleidoscope or some similar extension; I love that tool myself but I can't argue with the fact that my machine became at least six times more stable (and a good deal faster) when I removed the thing.
  • Yes, the grandmother at home DOES care that the Mac doesn't have protected memory. Because it causes multiple system crashes which causes her to lose that precious email.

    Spoken like someone who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what protected memory is. That Mac won't ever cause a single crash; a poorly-programmed email app might, though. That's all protected memory does; it keeps badly-programmed apps from taking down other stuff, and while nice it is not necessary for a stable system.

    I also might add that you seem to think that system crashes always cause the loss of a whole hard drive. Obviously you haven't used a Mac, which while it does crash at least can recover from a crash gracefully, which is more than I can say for the many, many Linux installations I've accidentally fried.
  • I don't think so. But they are still using that crappy Mac"OS" 8 which is (by your own words) designed for the above hardware.

    He said no such thing. Certainly you need more RAM than that to run MacOS (hell, even Linux requires more than that nowadays). However, try running any other OS with a GUI enabled from a floppy. Yep, that can still be done with OS8.5.1 (I'm serious, it is possible).
  • I had high hopes, always in the mood for some good nature MacOS trash talk. (I'm sorry, it just sucks! I would prefer win98!) But this was just sorta funny in a lame way, not really really funny.
    And that water reflection Java applet is SO TIRED! Get rid of that stupid thing!
  • saw the fake Redhat logo and thought.."Gee, looky /MUST/ run linux. They must be cool!"?

    hmm...whois sez the site is based in WA
  • it wacked my Netscape on Linux too...i'll bet they used that MS version of Java. Netscape never has a problem with real Java.
  • good for about a 2 second smile. then you realise they're windoze lusers and you feel stupid for playing into their hands over the Red Hat logo.
    the only anti-mac site that was ever any good was the exploding mac pagewhere they blew up an old Mac Plus. and done by real linux users at that.

  • fact, i think i still have a copy of it somewhere... those were the days, when irc terrorism still took a bit of skill ;)

  • This is a new low for slashdot. More crap like this and I'll exercise my right to block banner ads..

    OTOH IS a rather amusing site... but only worth a 'quickie' IMO.

    Two ironic things here:
    The first time I opened the page, Netscape for Linux crashed when Java initialized. kill? kill -9...

    Second is I bought an Apple G3/300 today, and it did NOT crash when I opened the page.

  • 'Crapple'?

    You know, the company has been around for over 20 years. You'd think people would be able to think of a better insult than calling it 'Crapple'.

    'Crapintosh' isn't terribly great, either.

    Be open minded. When I want to run a web server, I'll run Linux. When Linux natively runs Photoshop, I'll do my design in it. Maybe.

    I've found that most people who bash a platform extensively are typically trying to make up for their own deficiencies. The fact that this site's graphics look like they're straight out of MS Paint or maybe an early version of GIMP doesn't help matters much.

    - Darchmare
    - Axis Mutatis,
  • Agreed. As a Mac user myself, *I* could come up for better reasons to rip on Apple.

    Mismanagement. Forecasting under demand so that people had to wait months for their machines. The PowerBook 5300. Pippen. Killing OpenDoc. Killing PowerComputing. The lack of a drive bay (notice I did not say floppy drive) in the iMac. Lack of PCI slots in the current G3 minitowers. Sticking with proprietary tech' when it doesn't make sense.

    ...And so forth.

    But for all their mistakes, Apple is doing far better now than the last 4 years or so. They'll make screwups - and as always, they'll be publicized 10x more than comparable screwups by other companies. But you have got to respect a company that has been 'going out of business' for the last 15 years, even to the point of making an art out of it.

    These guys are fools, plain and simple. I also lose a bit of respect for Slashdot; Is this 'news for nerds', or 'news for Linux-using nerds'?

    The saddest thing is all the people replying to this article who seem to have nothing to do but follow in their footsteps.

    - Darchmare
    - Axis Mutatis,
  • I don't see how that RedHat logo fits in with the rest of the site. I think that's the only reason it was posted anyway.

    The site was done in FrontPage, there are Windows logos all over, and it bashes Macs, which is done mostly by Windows-loving puppies.

  • The magnificent "RedHat-supporting" Microsoft-loving site was done in FrontPage. Did you expect anything different?

  • Check out QNX []. It's intended for embedded/small memory systems. They fit networking, kernel, a gui, and a browser on a bootable 1.44 disk. I think you can download the disk image.
  • okay.. 'clueless' is a harsh word.. the guy does know a *lot* about game programming.

    still, take a look at what he's saying.. by his own admission, he dived into low-level programming in an OS where he didn't know the memory model, and found himself having to reboot.. what a surprise. in effect, he's blaming the OS for his own mistake.

    i know he's using that example as a lead-in to pointing out that the Mac OS memory model isn't designed around protected memory. okay, valid point.. the memory model is old, and is definitely due for some upgrading. OTOH, take a look at the conditions in which the thing was originally designed to run.

    when Linux can run the kernel, a GUI, and a single application with 256K of RAM, another 512K of library routines in ROM, and nothing but a floppy drive, i'll listen to arguments that there's a better way.

    as for the issue of preemptive versus cooperative multitasking, i'm willing to grant that OS technology has pretty much shifted to being preemptive. process scheduling is tightly linked to the memory model, though. preemptive multitasking is closely associated with a protected memory model, and a cooperative scheme works well with some of the assumptions built into the Mac OS memory model.

    i'm surprised Carmac didn't mention the problems which result from direct pointer references into memory.. the OS repacks memory periodically to reduce heap fragmentation, so you can't assume that pointers will remain valid across certain system calls. the OS supports a double-indirection scheme which balances ease of use (**mp as opposed to *mp) against internal cleaning. OTOH, maybe he just locked all his pointers to keep them from being moved, and caught the second-stage frustrations of heap fragmentation.

    again.. write a port of Linux that runs a GUI preemptively in 1MB of RAM with a 10MB hard drive, and i'll listen carefully to any arguments about alternative designs.

    i'm not saying the Mac OS is fundamentally better.. in fact, i think protected memory and preemptive multitasking are better solutions now that the computing resources to support them are affordable. coherent memory and cooperative multitasking are legacy issues, and they're being dealt with.

    in the meantime, RTFM.

  • i happen to have a Mac SE, vintage '89, sitting on my desk at the moment with that exact hardware configuration. it runs OS 7.1, a word processor, and a telnet client quite comfortably, thank you. i have a couple more SEs with dual floppies and no HD at all. i don't consider them workhorses by any means, but they're good for taking notes while i step through code with a debugger on my main machine, and as sattelite testing units when i'm working on distributed code.

    to expand on my earlier point, i believe it's entirely possible to port Linux to that kind of platform. i also know, however, that anyone who does such a port will have to deal with exactly the same kind of resource management issues as the developers of the Mac OS did 10-15 years ago.

    nothing in software is free, and there are all sorts of mutually exclusive goals in software design.. that's part of any programmer's working reality. if you want to do do one thing well you have to pay for it by giving up something else.

    Carmac is a game designer, which means his main goal is fairly well defined: devote every possible CPU cycle to drawing the next frame. that's a perfectly reasonable goal, and the game engine he's written is a speed demon. OTOH, he pays for that speed by using the resources of the system to the max. if his code *isn't* a resource hog, he isn't getting the kind of power that he could be.

    the Mac OS, by contrast, was designed for an era when a 4MB SIMM was a major investment, not a keychain (enthusiastic Linux advocates sometimes forget that the revolution didn't have much momentum back when 32MB cost a few $K). it was also designed for a market that was relatively forgiving when it came to sheer, display-crunching, multimedia throughput. given that context, it only makes sense for the Mac OS to have been developed with an eye towards resource optimization.

    deveopment of a coherent resource management schema is the single biggest PITA of programming. it includes memory allocation, error checking, and is tightly linked to your underlying domain model. *nobody* likes to go in and retune their resource management, because it falls just this side of a complete overhaul.

    Carmac's code (though i haven't seen the source) is almost certainly designed around a resource model of "i want it, and i want it *NOW*", which is normal when you optimize for speed. the Mac OS is designed around a model which encourages a more careful (or stodgy, depending on your POV) approach to resource allocation.

    to say that Carmac's code sucks because it didn't run on the first try under the Mac OS would be just as irrelevant as saying the OS sucks because it didn't support his resource model. the only meaningful statement is that the two aren't entirely compatible. either one could doubtless be tweaked to fit the other, but in either case, that would involve a lot of work.

    Carmac probably doesn't want to redesign his whole resource management schema just to boost the cross-platform stability of his game engine. fortunately, he doesn't have to.. Apple has already recognized the value of retooling its OS to use the kind of resource luxury we take for granted today. in a few seasons, the whole memory manager/cooperative multitasking thing will be history, and people will have to find something new about the Mac OS to hate.

  • First the poor OpenGLless Be guy then this flame bait. We still need some article "proving" Windows is better than Unix, tough.
  • it works just fine. worst that can happen is that you need to tell fdisk how many tracks to consider, but that's only under 2.0.36 or older. use 2.2.2 or 2.2.3 and be happy.
  • macintoy is the right word :)
  • Some people swear by their LinuxPPC boxes. A lot of people viciously support Be. To the point of rabidity (and no, don't cite that entire Apple-wont-give-out-specs-to-Be bullshit because they have more than they need and they're just not getting off their lazy asses. If LinuxPPC will work, so can Be if they want to try). The Mac is most certainly as open as any PC system, if not more so due to OpenFirmware (or are you not of the initiated?). Just because their (Apple's) OS doesn't run on anything else HARDLY means that their hardware is not 'open.'
  • What about my Macintosh 6500? I would assume that since the Developer releases didn't support the 6500 that it won't be supported. I suppose I could install LinuxPPC now that I finally bought an external modem and got rid of that stupid internal modem.
  • CT, they have ya fooled - these are NOT linux buddies... have you ever considered removing a post of your own? there are some sites that do not deserve the popularity of the /. effect...

    and crappy page, too, it kills netscape on my system...
  • All of the above.
  • opps, wrong reply button
  • One day, a bunch of Microsofties decide they want to bump up their hit count. How best to do this? Why, get /.'d of course!

    "Hmm, slashdot is full of Linux users... How about we put Red Hat logos everywhere to appeal to slashdotters, even though we sure as hell haven't installed Linux on a single computer before. It doesn't matter, nobody will figure us out! I mean, the internet is totally anonymous! What, Winzip? Windows? Nobody will notice those logos there. The slashdotters will totally love us for having Red Hat banners and for being funny, since we have tons of funny stuff everywhere! I bet we'll even get regular visitors from slashdot! Hey, let's make it look totally natural and ask out friend MOREX to report it to slashdot for us!"
  • It's just one of those facts of life. I've been beat on so much in college for being a Mac user and I make fun of Windows in kind. All you need to do is keep it from getting too personal. C'mon, a public forum is no place to be thin-skinned, is it?
  • Yes there is:

    Charming? No.
  • I wholeheartedly agree. The fact that MacMafia shamelessly plugs windows98 in all of its buggy glory is quite disturbing. Every OS has its problems, but to debunk one based solely on idiotic claims is just mindless. I expected to see something funny, but all I recieved was a stupid rant on apple and some touched up MiB images.
  • [jream@cheesewhiz jream]$ telnet 80 Trying Connected to Escape character is '^]'. GET HTTP11.1 HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request Server: Microsoft-IIS/4.0 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:30:27 GMT Content-Type: text/html Content-Length: 87 ErrorThe parameter is incorrect. Connection closed by foreign host. [jream@cheesewhiz jream]$
  • Did you notice the banner ad on top of the "news" section on that site? It's for Windoze NT... (the link is not valid any more, though.)

    Errr... Is that *paid* advertisement? Would be cute. It would show that M$ really doesn't know what to do with it's money...
  • And on which OS would they run that, NT? With all the down-time, the site won't be much of a burden to anyone but the sysadmins...
  • I don't think Mr. Carmac has any great insights. He is neatly glossing over the many stupid warts that Wintel inherits from the 8088 days, to wit the crappy DMA and INT structure, BIOS problems (ever try to get a 10 gig hard disk running on Linux???, or move a SCSI drive between controllers?). Win 95/98 has loads of 16 bit code, and the mechansim to support long file names is a gross hack. Win 95/98 doesn't really protect the kernal from applications overwriting memory, either. The CPU is a crufty non-orthoganal CISC architecture that is the worst thing that can be inflicted on programmers - and the MMX extensions?? Give me a break - they help the really terrible multimedia performance at the expensive of cutting off floating point. Hell. Win still relies on file name extensions to do application linking. Give me a break - this is almost the 21st century!! And how may disk partition formats has MS inflicted on us?? ??

    Not to mention Microsoft's 'we own you' attitude. Polluted Java, polluted HTML, sending user information back to the mother ship despite being explicitly told not to? Or how about their coopting technology (see Stacker) without bothering to license? Take a look at the 'Halloween' memos - where Microsoft talks about polluting existing network standards? Is this the company you really want to support??

  • I think with the release of GIMP that Unix (particularly the open source Linux and BSD distributions) gains considerable ground on the MacOS as a possibility for image editing. Hell, GIMP runs decently on my Pentium 90 with a paltry 24M of RAM (unless I swap between it and Navigator too many times). For HTML authoring, Emacs with html-helper-mode performs rather well (especially if you catch on to elisp enough to add simple things).

    Unix variants do not have to be hard to use. Being careless with DEL got you in serious trouble under DOS back in the old days too (and still can get you in trouble in the Win98 command prompt; remember DEL there bypasses the cute "click here to undelete your masterpiece" Recycling Bin). There do exist GUI and (n)curses-based file managers for Unix.

  • I posted the above comment by clicking "preview", completely unintentionally. There's no telling though if there's a mislink in /.'s scripting or my MacOS browser (the new browser iCab. Get Deutch baybee!) Guess which one *I* think was the culprit! ;-)

    Not much else to say...I won't finish that thought on "Site of the..." because I've read the comment about this site taking M$ munny. If they want to be the ButtTrumpet for M$ FUD then they're certainly within their rights.

    The page is in response to what happened when one of our users registered to our IP. Suddenly the webmaster started getting some pretty heated messages because it wasn't the home of the Jerry Springer web page. The link I put up was where some of these classic works of western literature are posted.

    I wonder if I should explain the reference to ButtTrumpet too, since the count of old-school mac hackers around here is probably pretty small... let's see if there is anyone else out there, shall we?

    Hint...Trumpet WinSock.

    peace on earth (or earth in pieces, I don't care)

  • From InterNic...

    The Firm (DAFIRM-DOM)
    11116 SE 204th
    Kent, WA 98031 -- Kent WA, as in 25 miles from Redmond, Kent WA.

    Domain Name: DAFIRM.COM

    Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
    Colcord, Doug (DC4582) doug@FOXINTERNET.NET
    Billing Contact:
    Colcord, Doug (DC4582) doug@FOXINTERNET.NET

    Record last updated on 05-May-97.
    Database last updated on 11-Mar-99 11:03:46 EST.

    Domain servers in listed order:



    The sad part isn't that this site was PAID for by MicroSoft, the sad part is it wasn't even funny.

    Commander Fajita, I though you had better taste than this...
  • Read the topic.

    poke around

  • Ok I am a Linux user and I am tried of MS bashing on Slashdot... so lets flame Apple!
  • Bit pathetic those anti-platform-sites, this one especially childish. Use a system that is right for the job, or for you.
  • The page was bad, the jokes non-existent and just said Macs suck because they suck basically. Why on earth this was posted on Slashdot as a News item I have no idea.
    Let's not insult users of other OS because we don't like what they use. It's futile and a waste time.
    I used to come to /. before I got LinuxPPC and thought it was nice because of computer related news/interesting stuff not because I was interested in listening to people trash OSes.
  • Hehh hehh. That page with the e-mails from the Springer freaks...I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.
  • Well, I'm no ~peace fanatic~ but I respect great people like Gandhi. Of course, these lamers don't seem to know what respect is... Look at that pic, ain't it revolting? And what about this one showing some religious ritual that they ridiculize by their stupid jokes... I think they should shut the fuck up...
  • these guys dont even write their web pages using linux - check for yourself - the generator is Micro$oft FP - at least try to cover your tracks guys

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. -- F.M. Hubbard