Journal pudge's Journal: The Christian Role of Government in Charity 11
I started a debate on the proper Christian role for government in charity over at David Kuo's web site. (Click "See All Comments" to see the whole discussion.)
I've talked about this subject in this space before. It's an important discussion because it is a major disconnect and disagreement that many Christians have, and as Christians are having this internal discussion about Christianity and partisan politics, I think we need to go deeper and explore, from a Christian perspective, the fundamental purposes of government.
For example, several of the other people in the discussion to this point have stated matter-of-factly that this is government's job, that there is some government obligation.
While there is obviously a vital role for government in caring for people
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There is?
And if government reflects any of the values of society, shouldn't charity be one? Perhaps even the predominant one?
Why should government reflect society's values?
Social costs always exist within a society. These social costs can be addressed in numerous ways and through numerous agencies, but they will always arise. If a social cost is being adequately addressed outside of government there may be no requirement for government to take on a role
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This implicitly states that if the social cost is not being "adequately addressed," then there is a need for government to step in. Why?
Anyway, so I think this is a good, interesting, and important discussion.
Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's (Score:2)
Other countries are: for example, Denmark and the Netherlands.
But we aren't nor have we ever been - heck we were founded by Masons (admittedly, they were helped by a lot of Quakers, so if we had a national religion, that would be it).
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Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's
That statement in the Bible is response to a very specific question: should we pay taxes, if government tells us to? They were looking for a loophole to avoid paying taxes. That's a completely different point from what I am making.
But, technically, the US is not a Christian nation.
Sure, though I am not sure what that has to do with this topic. Can you expound?
we were founded by Masons (admittedly, they were helped by a lot of Quakers, so if we had a national religion, that would be it).
No, very few of the Founders were Masons, or Quakers. Most were some form of Episcopalian. Quakers made up a relatively tiny percentage. Deists were an even smaller percentage, though a very i
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Yes, masons.
Your vision of what America was (a Christian English speaking nation) may not match reality (a Quaker (something like 40 percent) German speaking nation).
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Have you ever looked at the cornerstones of the buildings from that era?
Yes, masons.
Um. So because there is a Mason symbol on some buildings that means that a majority of Founders were Masons?
You realize that is not a logical conclusion, right? Indeed, the two most important politicians of the revolution -- Jefferson and Adams -- were not Masons.
And even IF you could show what isn't true -- that most of them were Masons -- it would have nothing to do with religion, since Masons in this country have a very clear history of strict separation of religion in their operations as a brotherhoo
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1. many pictures and documented historical displays at museums show that these were religiously influenced Masonic ceremonies. Please try and research before doubting our nation's proud history (FYI - I am not a Mason). The White House and most early federal buildings were so. Especially earlier ones (e.g. NY and Philadelphia)
2. Early Quakers were frequently not regarded as Christians, akin to how most Christians nowadays regard Mormons. You can reinvent history if you wish, but your modernist
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many pictures and documented historical displays at museums show that these were religiously influenced Masonic ceremonies
"These"? We weren't talking about ceremonies. No one mentioned ceremonies. Pronouns need antecedents!
And, again, no, the Masons were not a religion, or a religious order. They were a fraternity of men who all happened to be religious, but came from many different Christian "religions," including Episcopalian, Unitarian, Catholic, Protestant, Quaker, and so on. I am not sure why you keep ignoring this fact and pretending that Masons are a religion, let alone considered themselves to be one.
Please try and research
Yeah, um, y
I have always felt... (Score:2)
I think... (Score:1)
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...your questions are like asking a Christian, "well, who created God then?". I.e. you're questioning a foundation of beliefs/values that are taken for granted, that they were probably raised with, and attempting to go back further than/back a level before they have ever or are prepared to think and reason about.
You're probably right.
So what's wrong with that? It's good to make people think. Indeed, many of them are not prepared to think and reason about it. But some of them stop and DO think about it.
That's what I enjoy. Thinking, and getting others to think. YMMV.
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I think government should (speaking in an ethics sense here) help out the citizens as much as possible, including providing baseline care/support for the disadvantaged (physically, mentally, economically) but I don't base that on any ideas that the government should be Christian, or doing things for Christian reasons
Sure. Many people don't. But the point of the discussion at hand is why some Christians feel that supporting government welfare is a religous obligation. If you don't feel that, then the question isn't for you! :-)