That is tautological. For example, the USSR had laws codifying the planned economy. I doubt that the libertarians consider the USSR anything close to libertarian.

Libertarians want to pick exactly _what_ laws the state should enforce. And by a strange coincidence these laws are the ones that libertarians themselves need to protect them.

Are you sure? Can you look at the Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the US Constitution?

This doesn't sound anything like Madison. I checked the web, and lo and behomd - this quote is an outright fake. See here: http://www.democraticundergrou... So yes, libertardians are libertardians.

Cherry-pick _what_? I provided you direct quotes and examples of Jefferson liberalism. Certainly he was against excessive government intervention, but he most definitely was not against government in principle.

Duh. The US betrays its own principles once more. The fundamental US right of the freedom of speech? Who cares!

And? They were only few people out of millions living in poverty.

So let me describe your perfect society, the wet dream of libertardians:

1) There are two classes of people: peons and lords.
2) Peons have nothing and earn starvation wages (no minimal wage).
3) The working conditions are appalling (no OSHA either). After all, it's worker's own problem if they can't negotiate good working conditions.
4) Children are, of course, forced to work from an early age. No child labor laws either. After all, if parents wish for a child to study real job skills from the age of 5, then why should the government interfere?
5) No free education. Peons might learn to read and sign their name so their employers might be able to give them orders. Their parents might also sponsor some additional education, but see above about jobs.
6) No Social Security and no retirement. You die after you stop working. You were not able to save enough from your starvation wages? Tough.
7) Ditto for healthcare.
8) Small businesses? No such thing - as middle class tends to get all uppity about their rights. Instead, small businesses are slowly driven out by mega-corporations.
9) Competition? LOL! Next you'd ask for anti-monopoly laws!
10) Voting laws are reverted back to the good old American tradition proclaimed by the Founding Fathers: "One Dollar - One Vote". This tradition was advocated by all the founding fathers - or so says Fox News.


Of course, tame 'intellectuals' will protect that status-quo by pointing out that lots of people each year become rich! Perhaps 10 or even 20, out of 400 millions or so. And its entirely peons' fault that they are poor.

So yes, that's your dream society.

And so? Pure capitalism doesn't work either, so reducing free education is a step towards a hereditary oligarchy exploiting masses of poor people.

Yes, you think that you'll be slaveowners in the new capitalistic paradise, not slaves.

I'm a classic European liberal. So I stand for a _limited_ involvement of government - it should provide free education (possibly even higher education), universal healthcare, reasonable infrastructure and environment, and various means of support for those who need it. I don't want Soviet-style planned economy because it doesn't _work_ not because I'm a worshipper of the Invisible Fisting Of Market. And Soviet-style states also seems to be incompatible with social liberalism.

Nope. If you take it to its conclusion, socialism will make sure that no slaves or masters exist. Everyone will get an equal share of production output. So please, read your Marx first before spouting nonsense.

Of course, Marx's socialism doesn't work well in _practice_.

Yep. You can't have regulation without taxes.

Also for not shooting you or using your house as a toxic dump.

I'm paying for my part in taxes. Since you don't want to pay them, it's only fair that you reimburse me for that.

I prefer Sweden, actually.

At the time of Jefferson there was no real problem with industrial pollution (little industry), healthcare (pre-germ theory world) and little need for roads. Practically the only things that were relevant at that time were army, public education and public welfare.

Jefferson supported the universal free 3-year public education, funded by taxes ("A Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge") and accessible both for boys and girls.

As for welfare, just let me quote him: "It is a duty certainly to give our sparings to those who want; but to see also that they are faithfully distributed and duly apportioned to the respective wants of those receivers.", from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Megear, 1823.

So fuck off and learn your history. Founding fathers were most definitely not the spoiled brat libertardians.

Yes, it's mine (being a tax-paying resident of the USA) in a small part because it's protected by the environment legislation. Feel free to move to Beijing if you don't see a value of it.

For each meter of the road and cubic meter of fresh air?

Basics? You mean "exactly what I got but nothing else?

And no, the US was not founded on libertarian principles.

Of course not. That'll only pay for your past usage of the common infrastructure. You must also cease any use of it.

Don't flatter yourself. Libertardian ideology is far older and was well-known even centuries before.

Yes. Please return that several millions of dollars that people before you have spent on your roads, security, education, good environment and so on. Libertardians in the US have never actually lived in countries that lack this stuff so they have no freaking idea how privileged they are.

We can build structures that can last for millenia. That's easy. For instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... utterly dwarfs pyramids and it's expected to last longer.

It's just that with rare exceptions people do not WANT such structures. A typical house could probably be rebuilt much cheaper in 50-70 years and with better safety. For example, the house where I live right now was built 5 years ago - it certainly doesn't look as 'solid' as a renovated Victorian house where I'd been living earlier. However, the new house is an order of magnitude better insulated so it requires much less heating and cooling. Its sound insulation allows me to run on a treadmill listening to music while my girlfriend is sleeping downstairs. The electrical wiring allows me to power a coffee maker, electric kettle and a dishwasher without burning down the whole block and so on.

But I totally expect that in 100 years it'd replaced with a house made from paper-thing carbon-nanotube reinforced smart self-forming concrete with built-in automated furniture extruders. While people will be telling each other that nobody can make anything lasting more than a week, unlike people in 2010 who could build stuff lasting for _decades_.