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Education Microsoft

UK Schools Warned Off Microsoft Deal 337

rs232 sends in a BBC piece on the UK computer agency Becta advising schools against signing up for a Microsoft educational license because of alleged anti-competitive practices. "The problem was that Microsoft required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else." We have discussed Becta's role in British education here several times as they have acted as a watchdog warning of perceived Microsoft excesses.
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UK Schools Warned Off Microsoft Deal

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  • Re:Linux (Score:2, Insightful)

    by p0tat03 ( 985078 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:26PM (#21151931)

    Sort of, kind of, not really? Schools are supposed to teach children skills that they can apply in the real world. One of these skills is keyboarding, and honestly, how many typing training packages have you seen on 'nix? Or even Mac?


    Kids' software needs are significantly different from that of adults, with the possible except of a good Office suite, which everybody needs. Where's the equivalent of your doodling software, trivia games, and all that stuff you would find in a primary school computer lab?


    While I agree MS's tactics here are pretty low, it doesn't immediately lead us to "switch to Linux", because honestly it's not a viable alternative.


    On the other hand, Apple has traditionally had the support of children's software publishers. Maybe they can leverage this situation to their advantage...

  • by webmaster404 ( 1148909 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:32PM (#21151967)
    Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it, if you take someone who learned Windows 98 and put them on a Vista system, they would be confused and have no clue how to do the most basic things. Same thing with Office, if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system, take someone who learned on Word 97 and put them on a Word 2007 machine and they would be confused. Not to mention practically anyone knows how to check e-mail, surf the web and get around an operating system, that doesn't get you ahead, now if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration, they could be an entry-level sysadmin for a small company, while the other student would be more or less a data entry clerk, Windows leads to more dependence on MS products, Linux leads to more solutions and more opportunities.
  • And if you had simply RTF Summary, not even RTFA, you would have noted that the issue is not whether or not to use Windows, but the draconian, monopolistic terms that Microsoft tries to force on schools with their educational subscription licensing models. The idea that they force schools to buy licenses for every single machine regardless of whether or not it is running Microsoft software is just this side of extortion, and BECTA was simply pointing out that it is not in a school's best interest to sign such terms, and should opt instead for the normal perpetual license that people purchase. Not over whether or not to use Windows (and Office in this case too), at least not in the short term.
  • by tomhudson ( 43916 ) <barbara,hudson&barbara-hudson,com> on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:34PM (#21151991) Journal

    > "The problem was that Microsoft required schools to have licenses for every PC in a school that might use its software, whether they were actually doing so or running something else."

    Microsoft can't "require" this. Same as the BSA or CAAST can't just show up at your doorstep and "require" anything. Not even a "license audit."

    Good for Becta.

  • by X0563511 ( 793323 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:51PM (#21152123) Homepage Journal
    You know, those are really good points that one usually doesn't see flying around here...
  • by bigstrat2003 ( 1058574 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:54PM (#21152147)
    That's not true at all. There are people (generally speaking) who learn by figuring things out for themselves, and there are people who learn by memorizing procedures. Those who figure things out for themselves will have no trouble going from Windows to any other OS, especially not another Windows OS. Those who memorize procedures will be just as confused going from Linux to anything else as they would be going from Windows to Linux. The weak link here is the people, it has nothing to do with the environment they use.
  • Intel Macs (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bazald ( 886779 ) <bazald@z[ ]pex.com ['eni' in gap]> on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:56PM (#21152163) Homepage
    I already replied above, but on an unrelated note, it just occurred to me that this license would brilliantly require schools to pay Microsoft subscription fees for all their macs with Intel CPUs. As education is one area where Macs are close to dominant, this is a brilliant move. Kudos.
  • by PhysicsPhil ( 880677 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @07:58PM (#21152173)

    Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows If someone learned UNIX 10 years ago, they could pick up a modern Linux distro and have little trouble with it, if you take someone who learned Windows 98 and put them on a Vista system, they would be confused and have no clue how to do the most basic things. Same thing with Office, if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system, take someone who learned on Word 97 and put them on a Word 2007 machine and they would be confused. Not to mention practically anyone knows how to check e-mail, surf the web and get around an operating system, that doesn't get you ahead, now if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration, they could be an entry-level sysadmin for a small company, while the other student would be more or less a data entry clerk, Windows leads to more dependence on MS products, Linux leads to more solutions and more opportunities.

    I must take exception to this. Yes, if someone knows PHP, Perl and Server Administration they could be an entry level sysadmin. Or they could not know anything about them (well PHP and Server stuff) and become a physicist like me. This is a school setting we're talking about, and they have to train more than just computer users. Students shouldn't have to learn vi in order to type out a book report, nor should they need to know about server administration in order to use a web browser to research said report. The computer is a tool, something to make things easier, not an end unto itself. I think we forget that on Slashdot sometimes.

    Speaking from experience, a person who can use Word 97 will have little difficulty adapting to Word 2007, nor will they have much difficulty using OpenOffice for all of the basic stuff that 95% of us use it for. You are correct that Windows teaches someone how to use Windows, much as *nix teaches someone how to use another *nix flavour. The person who picked up Windows 95 is not going to have trouble with WinXP, and the person who learned Unix ten years ago will pick up Ubuntu just fine today.

    Much like we don't need to understand how a car works to use it, we can be perfectly productive computer users without knowing about the nitty gritty details. Would it help? Sure, sometimes, but we have to weigh the time spent learning those details against the time that could be spent learning other useful things (physics, perhaps?). Switching to *nix just to expose people to the internals of a computer OS isn't necessarily doing them any favours.

  • by nbannerman ( 974715 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @08:05PM (#21152215)
    Well I'm a Sys Admin / Network Manager in a school in the UK.

    Truth of the matter is I have approximately 2% of the school budget made available to me; this equates to about £150,000. Using that money, I run a 2000+ user network, with nearly 750 attached devices (thin clients, fat clients, printers, etc).

    I run an almost entirely Microsoft shop - 2000/2003/Exchange/XP/XPe, with Office 2003 / Encarta / Project as well. In terms of non-MS OS, take your pic from Debian, Thinstation and a host of Linux-based thin client devices (Neoware, Wyse, etc).

    My Microsoft licensing costs come in at around £12,000 per year, this also includes my terminal service licensing. Is that a lot? Not really - the buy price for 650+ copies of XP, Office, plus CALs for Exchange, 2003 and Terminal Services is prohibatively high imho.

    BECTA can complain about the terms of the agreement, and suggest we spend our money 'up front', but unless they are going to provide funding, I'm afraid to say I'll stick with the Schools Agreement for now.

    I'd love to have the money to buy outright, don't get me wrong. But for a school with a relatively low income (ie our students come from a high socio-economic area) I simply can't afford to do it - £12,000 a year is however a manageable cost.
  • Re:Linux (Score:5, Insightful)

    by EvilGrin666 ( 457869 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @08:12PM (#21152277) Homepage

    Actually the vast majority of that type of software runs pretty flawlessly under wine.
    Ironically, a lot of the software actually runs better under wine than under XP/Vista because it's ancient and crusty 16bit stuff.
  • by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @08:31PM (#21152433) Homepage
    Why haven't schools switched to all Linux? Linux teaches students about computers Windows teaches students how to use Windows

    No. Linux and Windows are equivalent in the sense that neither teaches students about computers, they both teach students about an operating system.

    if a UNIX student learned on vi, they could edit text files with ease on a Linux system

    Again, Linux and Windows are far more alike than you claim. The student who learned DOS EDIT can open a console and run EDIT under Windows.

    More importantly, much open source software (OpenOffice, GIMP, Apache, MySQL, ...) is also available for Windows.

    Schools should not be teaching Windows or Linux. Neither is appropriate. Common business and productivity tools are appropriate, but only to the degree that a student could write and print an essay, solve some math problems with a spreadsheet, etc. Expertise in such tools should be reserved for some sort of business class. Teaching kids to be admins is *not* something K-12 education should be doing. We have already stolen too much time from basic reading, writing, arithmetic, and science.
  • Re:Linux (Score:2, Insightful)

    by freedomlinux ( 1072142 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @09:09PM (#21152657) Homepage
    Hey! I practiced my typing with 'touch' and it put tons of empty files all over my /home! grr... buggy software
    On a more serious note, KTouch is a useful program, and you will likely find an open-source program equivalent to pretty much everything.
  • by zurtle ( 785688 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @09:39PM (#21152889) Homepage
    Slashdot covered a very similar predicament a while ago:
    Clicketh [slashdot.org]

    Given the timestampdiff between the two it looks like it is taking people a while to wake up to the reality of Microsoft licencing.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 28, 2007 @11:05PM (#21153435)

    The education system has a responsibility to teach kids INDUSTRY STANDARDS.
    There are bigger things to change than the software used if that's the case.
  • Re:Sighing up (Score:3, Insightful)

    by value_added ( 719364 ) on Sunday October 28, 2007 @11:52PM (#21153713)
    Probably a reference to the collective sigh of all /. readers after simultaneously wondering if the editors are illiterate, or if they simply don't read what they post.

    Few read the articles, many don't read even the summary (see the recent "Apple Makes $831 On Each AT&T iPhone"), few make use of the preview button, and our editors don't read the submissions. I wonder what it is any of us are doing here?

            Slashdot is the graffiti on technology's bathroom wall.

    Discuss.
  • by JFitzsimmons ( 764599 ) <justin@fitzsimmons.ca> on Monday October 29, 2007 @12:41AM (#21154003)
    Because MathType lets you just click some buttons and insert mathematical equations into Word. If you already have Word and mathematical experience, your downtime is approximately 30 seconds. To deploy LaTeX however, you have to learn an entire typesetting language, from scratch, with a significantly poorer interface (text file). And then you have to 'compile' your file into something before you can observe the results. No wonder they spent the couple hundred mathtype licences; how many man hours would be lost training everyone to use LaTeX?
  • Re:Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Blkdeath ( 530393 ) on Monday October 29, 2007 @12:51AM (#21154057) Homepage

    What would motivate such a person to make the post at all?

    Haven't you ever known somebody who speaks mostly because they like the sound of their own voice? Same principle applies to the text from their fingers.

  • Re:Linux (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Blkdeath ( 530393 ) on Monday October 29, 2007 @01:10AM (#21154141) Homepage

    The worst way to teach a kid to type is a IM Client. Seriously, i have seen it work for a lot of kids and some of these kids have learning disabilities (like ADD).

    There, fixed that for you.

    Kids who use IM clients, text messaging on cell phones, etc. develop a very early crutch on short forms, symbols, letters in place of words, acronyms for anything common, a complete lack of syntax and a dozen other nightmares preventing the proper development of language skills. The younger they're exposed to this the worse off they are.

    My younger brother is guilty of all of the above and I insist that when he talks to me via IM he use proper sentence structure or I'll ignore him. I don't want to hear about "2day wen i went 2 da part wit ma bffls ... " and it serves no educational purpose to him or his friends to continue in that fashion.

  • Re:Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cheater512 ( 783349 ) <nick@nickstallman.net> on Monday October 29, 2007 @02:44AM (#21154483) Homepage
    Its also trivially easy to bypass such server side login scripts.
    Pulling out the network cable about 5 seconds after logging in usually does the trick. :)
    Windows then defaults to a 'allow all' state.

    Yes Windows is fully scriptable but it will only allow you to lock down the really obvious things.
    They are extremely simple to work around if your determined enough.
    Hint: At a school, there will be plenty of bored kids who are determined.
  • Re:Linux (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dotancohen ( 1015143 ) on Monday October 29, 2007 @03:38AM (#21154691) Homepage
    At my university their are XP machines locked down so that one cannot even open the file manager, they are web-browser only (supposedly). To access my disk on key, I found that I can simply browse the filesystem in IE's File -> Open dialog.

    When I decided that I'm sick of that setup, I tried to boot Slax but discovered that the BIOS is set to boot from the harddisk first, and is password protected. So I unplugged the machine, and using a broken mechanical pencil managed to pop to battery off the motherboard through air vents in the locked case. Five minutes later, hehehe, I opened the now-default-settings BIOS, set it to boot from CD, and away I was.

    Moral:_ANYTHING_ can be bypassed so long as the intruder is determined, and having physical access to the hardware (locked case or not) certainly helps. Linux probably might have helped prevent me from using the disk on key, but it would not have helped prevent me from defeating the BIOS.

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