The UK's Total Surveillance

Budenny writes "The Register has a story in its ongoing coverage of the UK ID Card story. This one suggests, with links to a weekend news story, that the Prime Minister in waiting has bought the idea that all electronic transactions in the UK should be linked to a central government/police database. Every cash withdrawal, every credit card purchase, ever loyalty card use ... And that data should flow back from the police database to (eg) a loyalty card use. So, for example, not only would the government know what books you were buying, but the bookstore would also know if you had an outstanding speeding ticket!"

Visitors

[Superblargo]

I wonder what people would do if they took a vacation in the UK or if they were there on a business trip. If this system became integrated into daily life and such, I bet that visitors would have to get some type of a temporary card so that they could be tracked, too.

and of course the next obvious step...

[Churla]

If you pay cash for something you'll be required to swipe your ID card through a reader anyways because "it's standard procedure to get a card swipe of some kind with every transaction"

Changed sides

[BenjyD]

About five years ago I was generally in favour of limited invasion of privacy like ID cards, CCTV etc. The level of craziness coming from Labour in the area has pushed me into the privacy nut camp. Their current behaviour just seems like the Labour equivalent of Thatcher's last years.

Re:What a benefit for consumers!

[LiquidCoooled]

I actually think it would work better as:

The system says you are an axe-wielding maniac, you are entitled to 25% off our powertools!

As the article says though, its unworkable, and doesn't even get round to web/telephone transactions and verifying the person on the other end is who they say they are.

I was afraid for a moment.

[grasshoppa]

Then two things occured to me;

1) I don't live in the UK
2) Natural incompetency will prevent this from ever seeing the light of day. They'll be a lot of noise about it, then a year or so before it's supposed to go live, there will be story after story about how this jack holes never managed to figure out what a database was, let alone link them to others.

Re:Terrorists

[clickclickdrone]

Other way around, surely. Our beloved governments use the bogie man of terrorists on every street corner to cajole us in to throwing away our civil liberties and turning over every scrap of data to them. You can usually spot a scary or stupid government idea because they tack on 'and this will protect us from terrorists' on the end of the description.

Information overload

[Dan Slotman]

The bookstore cited in the summary would not want to know about your speeding tichets. They would undoubtedly implement a filter to narrow down the information they display. Plus, I didn't RTFA, but it seems unlikely to me that the system would actually be structured in such a way that all information could be pulled with the same weight. I'd think that personal information would require a higher access level. However, in the US, traffic citations are public record, and a bookstore could pull them in if they wanted to.

Britain is out of control

[Wonderkid]

As a Brit who lived in the USA from 1991 to 2000, I can report unfortunately, that unlike the USA, whose wonderful constitution and congress means that controversial measures are often debated, here, if the PM or PM2B decides to implement a law, he may and sometimes will bring it into being. The collapse of morals, lack of principled leadership, common sense and genuine concern for the populace shown by Blair's government is terrifying. I have had several parking tickets (citations) in London whereby my car was photographed BEFORE the alleged offence, and without my permission. I was stunned to receive pictures of my car and toughly written letters demanding payment of £100 for very very minor and totally accidental parking offences. Once such CCTV systems and linked to the same database as this retail database, we will in fact be living in a world far worse than Owell envisioned because unlike people, technology is cold and unable to make compassionate or common sense based judgements. It's not the Orwellian nightmare we should be afraid of, it's the concept of Skynet and such a system being missued by a corrupt and morally bankrupt government. Or G-d forbid, any terrorists who take over parliament and use it to 'take out' people of a specific ethnic group. It's happened before! People of Britain, open your eyes!

Re:Only those who have something to hide need fear

[gatzke]

I have been using almost all cash only purchases for a couple of years now, mostly for budgeting reasons (once you empty your wallet, you are done for the week, a CC keeps going).

You can still use cash for most transactions, and that does not yet get tracked.

Of course, if you get your cash at the bank like I do, they probably track the serial numbers from your account (too paranoid?).

Re:*gasp*

[TobascoKid]

think about when you sign up for health insurance, they'll be like `dear sir, we know you lied on your application, we have seen you have purchased excessive tobacoo and alcholic substances in the last year`.

Most people don't have private health insurance here, we have the NHS, and if you do choose to get private health insurance, you have to tell them how much you smoke/drink anyway.

If anything, this would be one of the few possible benefits of such a system - the amount of tax you pay could be directly linked to your lifestyle, so people who smoke would pay more because they're probably going to make more use of the NHS than those who don't. True, they already pay more due to the high level of duty on cigarettes, but smokers are an easy target and what government can resist easy tax targets. They could sell it the same way that they're selling the road usage charge idea (the one one where they stick a gps in your car and monitor where it goes) - just use a dubious moral argument to get it through (smokers|car drivers are evil and must be punished through punative taxation).

You could even go one stage further and make VAT progressive as well - instead of everyone paying the same 17.5%, your VAT rate would be directly related to income. Of course, that would mean moving to the US model where the displayed price doesn't include tax, which would mean people would actually become aware of how much money they're handing over to the government, and some resentment might result.

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[TobascoKid]

And people will accept it all - because it will all happen slowly, over time, and add seeming convenience to everything. Why carry an ID or a credit card?

We could have that now under certain circumstances, but we don't. When I go to the petrol station to fill up, my car's registration is read and OCR'd, so why do I have to go in and give my loyalty card and credit card? It should just be able to recognize that it's my car, authorize the pump to dispense a ceratin amount of petrol and let me drive off. It could go one step furthur, they could link it up to the security cameras and only authorize it if it recognizes me - if it doesn't, then they can phone me up on my mobile (which they have from when I signed up to the loyality card) and ask if I know that my car is being driven by somebody else. The reason why this doesn't happen is that while it would be of great convience to me (it would be even more convienient than the pay at pump pumps - which are now slowly being phased out), it ruins the petrol station's business model, which has me going in to the kiosk and impulse buying items.

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[bitchell]

It's already happening, there are people who are starting to destroy speed camera's. I have seen quite a few that have been burnt out.

Re:Visitors

[Xest]

To be fair it's not like the UK is the most worrying place for that sort of thing. If you're talking about going abroad then a lot of countries gather far more information on you than the UK does or likely ever will. This type of thing is never going to go live as much as the media likes to sensationalise these type of things, although it's arguable of course that media sensationalism is why it wont go live - people just wont accept it. Even if somehow it did get put into practice the European human rights courts would crush it within seconds (yes Europe IS good for something ;)).

When I went to the US last year they insisted on taking my fingerprints and photograph (retina scan I think? Looked like a normal webcam though!) as well as a record of where I was going to be throughout my entire trip there, how much currency I had with me, where I worked, where in the UK I lived etc. I'd never seen a gun before except for in the army cadets, certainly never in a non-military setting for 23 years and a police officer at heathrow with an MP5 (i.e. my whole life to that point) however when I went to the US. In 4 weeks in the US travelling from Sacramento down through California and to Arizona back up to the grand canyon I saw 2 individuals with guns as well as 5 incidents (2 in Sacramento, 3 in Phoenix) of police officers with guns pulled on people in cars - that's 6 more in 4 weeks than I've ever seen in 23 years of living in the UK outside a military setting. Of course, gun crime there is a lot higher also as we well know.

I'll note also that whilst I've seen no display of firearms by anyone in the other countries I've been to I must note that arguably the worst for information gathering and general nastiness of customs officials when I went on holiday was ironically Canada, a country that is supposedly full of friendly people. When I landed in Ottawa and got to immigration I was told to step into the customs office where I was interrogated for 3hrs and asked everything from the password to my laptop which I had in my case through to the amount of money in my bank account, whether I had a criminal record, what my job was, how long I'd worked there, whether I had a girlfriend/wife, why I had two shavers in my suitcase and whether I had any beastiality images on my laptop or digital camera (no seriously, it was hard to keep a straight face on that one). After they realised I really was just there on holiday and not a multi-billionaire, unemployed, shaver murderer importing a hoarde of beastiality porn on my laptop and camera to Canada they let me go on with my holiday, again not without however recording every little detail of my planned trip. Now I'll accept I was probably unlucky, that immigration was looking for someone specific after a tip off maybe (they did pull one other person aside but only for an hour) however again, I'm pretty sure Canadian immigration now still holds far more information on me than they probably should.

The only country I've ever been to that hasn't bothered with personal details was Norway which was a weird experience, it was literally straight off the plane in Narvik and onwards with my whale watching trip.

What I'm getting at here isn't that the UK is some innocent country where the authorities treat us really nicely or that America is a land of spying gun toting maniacs but simply that the parent comment is just simple paranoia, it's worth noting that Europe as a whole has refused to let many countries retain information on European citizens unless said country adheres to European data protection laws so there's a lot more protection out there than articles like in TFA would have you beleive.

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[russ1337]

When I was driving in France one time, I was told they WILL give you a speeding ticket at the toll booth if the trip occurs too quickly.

You better hope that your data tag isnt cloned. Should your clone be at another location within a few minutes the authorities may 'know' you were travelling 3000 miles an hour and ticket you accordingly.

Re:Only those who have something to hide need fear

[dwandy]

while I also have abundant faith that the ability to succesfully complete an IT project is inversely relational to the size of the organisation, I also have utmost faith that the guv will roll out something and I expect it to be a bug-riddled chunk of sh!t that will produce some amazing and unpredicable results when querried...

Re:A little information...

[mspohr]

Do you have a source for this?

Most health care costs occur at the end of life regardless of when that occurs.

Smokers tend to have more illnesses during the course of their lives and more complicated end of life diseases such as emphysema or chronic bronchitis, both of which are a long expensive way to die.

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[Chris Burke]

It could go one step furthur, they could link it up to the security cameras and only authorize it if it recognizes me - if it doesn't, then they can phone me up on my mobile (which they have from when I signed up to the loyality card) and ask if I know that my car is being driven by somebody else. The reason why this doesn't happen is that while it would be of great convience to me

Your idea of convenience is having gas station security call you every time your SO takes your car to the station? Or you're on a road trip and your friend fills up while you go in to buy munchies? That's weird.

But good call on recognizing why it hasn't happened -- though maybe they'll start putting vending machines at the pumps. :P

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[truthsearch]

What do you think is going to happen to you if you get an EZPass or a customer loyalty card

People have used these often in divorce cases to claim a spouse is cheating. In a criminal case you need a fair amount of evidence which combined together proves guilt. In a civil divorce case the suspicion of cheating just from lying about where you were at certain times can cause you to lose a case. For example, if you lied to your wife to sneak out to a baseball game instead of working late she can use your EZPass to show you were lying and claim you were having an affair.

And just because more extreme things haven't happened yet doesn't mean they won't.

Stealth compulsion via passports... and NO2ID

[UpnAtom]

The British Government know that no-one in their right mind will actually volunteer for mass-surveillance and so they've forced the passport agency (now the Identity and Passport Service [ukpa.gov.uk]) to do the dirty for them.

As soon as they can get the tech working, passport applicants/renewers will be entered on the National Identity Register (NIR). There is no opt out.

This NIR is initially planned to be linked to your tax records, police records, passport records and even the new Automated Number Plate Recogntion [spy.org.uk] system which tracks all your car journeys.

This, of course, is just the beginning [bristol-no2id.org.uk], but is already the world's most intrusive database on citizens, going further than even China. If Brown gets his way, it looks like your credit card transactions, phone calls & emails will soon be able to automatically flag you as a possible troublemaker.

Britain's democracy has failed to stop this. It will likewise not stop future governments of any variety abusing you via your data.

NO2ID [no2id.net] has known about this all along and we have been telling anyone who would listen. The campaign is extremely well run and full of great people, but we need YOUR help to stop this Orwellian nightmare [wikipedia.org].

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[Anonymous Coward]

Get out. I'm serious. Start planning today. Life is way too short to fight government, and way too valuable to risk fighting government. Realize that you and your family are more valuable than any political agenda ever could be. Any human life -- of which freedom is an essential component -- is more valuable than any political agenda ever could be.

History shows that governments continually expand in power throughout their lifetimes. Democracy is no savior -- no government in the history of organized coercion has ever significantly and permanently reduced its power through the democratic process. In recent years, democracy is beginning to look like a recipe for oppression.

In reality -- and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade -- there is no chance of the pseudo-freedom you used to have coming back. (This goes for the US as well as the UK.) What's gone is gone, and the future will only reveal more attacks on your god-given right to freedom. The question is how much more can you and your family take?

History is there for us to learn from. You can't escape government, but you can relocate to live under the rule of a less oppressive government. I suggest you do it while you still can.

Most modern cars have tracking transponders

[Philip K Dickhead]

Transponders?

Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).

I hope this guys RFID dumper helps people learn about their car more (if supported scanner is in the AIAG frequency standard range)

Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.

Taggant research papers :
http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF [princeton.edu]
(remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)

I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

Photos of chips before molded deep into tires! :

http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html [sokymat.com]

You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

The photo of the secret prototype WAS at :
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html [tadiran-telematics.com] ...but the link finally died in July 2004 and the new location does not have a photo of a RFID bridge underpass collector. But does discuss thhe toll booth RFID uses...

http://www.telematics-wireless.com/site/index1.php ?ln=en&main_id=33 [telematics-wireless.com]

but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.

The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit ca

Re:Tuesday morning sarcasm

[umeboshi]

The goal is not to piss the cop off, but to make him/her see their role in the enslavement of humanity. A policeman's greatest weakness is his pride. Most of them believe they do the right thing, and desire to do the right thing. You must keep in mind that all people have consciences.

It has been stated in a previous comment that most people (these days) will support fascism. This is primarily because they have been sold this idea under another name for many years. This is clear evidence of a system of deception that has taken place for many years.

The police control the most critical borders between the government and it's citizens. Educating the police may require more personal sacrifice than other methods of interacting with the government, but it can be one of the most effective. We must keep in mind that jail/prison is the last resort for a government. Those who are imprisoned have effectively shown (for possibly many reasons) that they are resistant to control by the government.

Most of the police I have talked to in my area are convinced that they can arrest (they call it detain, but it has the same meaning) a person and hold them in jail until they are positively identified. The actual meaning of the 4th amendment is foreign to them, as they have a 'loose interpretation' of probable cause. Basically around here a law enforcement officer has probable cause if they believe they have probable cause. They generally get away with this.

I've talked to a sheriff's deputy before and was appalled to find that he believed that the bill of rights only applies to federal cases. According to him, the state government can limit constitutionally protected rights, but the federal government is not allowed to. The state governments actually did try to do exactly this, and were subsequently told not to in the form of the 14th amendment.

I have lived through multiple beatings at the hands of our police. One of them nearly killed me. The biggest lesson that I learned from it is that they will back down. I can't overstress this fact. They will back down. It does take persistence and personal sacrifice, but eventually they will back down. My only fear is that they backed off of me, but are continuing to pick on others.

I only ask that you think about the children. Think about the world that you are preparing for them. Discover what your parents/grandparents did in preparing this world for your generation. Everything they either fought for or submitted to is already expected of you and will be treated as tradition to your children.

Sorry if this post is too disjointed, but I'm more in the mood for a rant, rather than a cohesive essay.

Re:Most modern cars have tracking transponders

[Anonymous Coward]

I found the following after a quick google:
Sokymat Product Page::Tire identification [sokymat.ch]

"The current state-of-the-art technology for tire identification consists of fixing a barcode onto the finished product. This method of identification only provides traceability between the moment the tire leaves the manufacturing plant of the tire producer, until it reaches the POS (Point Of Sale). As soon as the barcode is removed at the POS, the unequivocal identification of the tire is no longer possible. Thus, when quality problems occur, an it is extremely difficult, time consuming and costly to research the production lot the tire belonged to originally.

To ensure the maximum quality of each tire, is becoming more and more important to be able to guarantee the unequivocal identification and traceability of every single item put on the market throughout its entire lifetime."

And this article [rfidjournal.com] from 2003, published in an RFID industry journal.

"The US Congress passed the TREAD (Transportation, Recall, Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation) Act in the wake of the Firestone/Ford Explorer debacle. The act mandates that car makers closely track tires from the 2004 model year on, so they can be recalled if there's a problem. This technology could be available for the 2005 model year.

... But Michelin claims to be the first to meet the Automotive Industry Action Group's B-11 standard for North America, which calls for a read distance of 24 inches."

And then there is a recent news release of using the technology for tire leasing [yahoo.com].

For this year's NASCAR racing season, Goodyear is using RFID to track the roughly 200,000 tires used throughout the NASCAR season at all three race series -- Nextel Cup, Busch and Craftsman Truck -- as part of a tire-leasing program. NASCAR organizers requested the leasing program as a means of evening the playing field.