Best Buy 'Geek Squad' Accused of Pirating Software 476
Alien54 writes "Texas software company Winternals Software LP has sued Best Buy Co. Inc. in federal court, alleging that the nation's largest consumer electronics retailer was using unlicensed versions of its diagnostic equipment. Best Buy's Geek Squad, is alleged to be using pirated versions of the software since talks on a commercial licensing agreement broke off. A restraining order has been granted."
Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:5, Interesting)
Not Surprising (Score:3, Interesting)
Trustworthy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:2, Interesting)
To top it off they wiped her HD without backing it up and then restored it with the wrong version of windows.
Of course this is the same store that tried to sell my parents a $3,000 gamer's dream rig for sending email and browsing the web.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:5, Interesting)
Say you're fixing someone's winbox, and you need to reinstall something. The user nearly always "lost" the original discs, regkey, etc. What is expected of us? Buy a new version of all software so the user can lose it again?
I usually pirate my way through it, no other option really. But how would a reputable shop deal with this? I hope geek squad isn't expected to buy another windows license every time a user lost their docs.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:4, Interesting)
Worked for a GeekSquad back home... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, the unlicensed software usage is true, and widespread.
The keylogger thing mentioned above happened once, and the tech was summarily fired. I'm pretty sure the customer got a completely new machine, too, because of it.
Our supervisor was a douche, complete and total jerk. When I confronted him about the issue of pirated hardware, he held sort of the 'BestBuy is like Wal*Mart' attitude, with the assumption that the corporation could just strong-arm the publisher into submission.
I guess he was wrong.
From my time in the silicon mines.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Piracy was absolutely rampant behind the counter. The policy was: so long as the customer doesn't see it, it's all good. Some stuff was frowned on, like copying a customer's key to XP and the like, and we were strict on the MS licensing rules (w/customers) except for the boss's friends, who got whatever they wanted.
We used 3 different diagnostic programs, and the rumour was that we'd paid for one copy of one of them a long time ago. We were encouraged to warez (does anybody still say that?) new apps to make our job go smoother, and we must have had a dozen different pirated data recovery suites lying around. So this is not really surprising, if the enviroment at BB is anything like what I knew.
The biggest problem with the service side of things is that anyone who is any good at the job is qualified for much much better things. Servicing PC's is an entry level job that requires an enourmous working knowledge to do well. Any monkey can run a ram diagnostic and format/reinstall, but anything more complex, like virus/spyware removal, intermittant h/w failure, dealing with customers, even just data backup: These all require a skill set that pays better elsewhere. As a jumping off point for geeks, its a great education, but it don't pay what its worth. Hardly a shock that this leads to less-than-professional conduct...
Re:Ha (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:5, Interesting)
Thats not the problem at all ... the problem is someone with the brains to be a good PC repair person has the ability to make *MORE* money than anyone will pay for PC repair.
In other words, people are unwilling to pay enough to attract smart people.
An Example: I used to be a consultant, one client was a friend of a friend and I gave her a super sweetheart deal, $35/hr where the going rates were $100-$150. I was basically loosing money working for her ... I was working a long term contract, and she calls up and asks if I'm avaliable and I tell her no, and to call my friend whose rate is only $150/hr. She pleads poor and could I please come out and help her, so I do the stupid thing and take pitty. While I'm down there -- she's telling me how her husband had blown 100k on a tractor she knew was a scam -- and the previous weekend she had blown 12k in Vegas.
My point is, she wasn't willing to pay $150/hr to have someone come out and fix the computers for her business, but was willing to blow 100x the cost of that on frivilous things. It was the last time I took a call from her.
MOD PARENT UP INFORMATIVE (Score:5, Interesting)
Why am I not posting anonymous coward when Im giving them such obvious information as to who I am?
Because I'm not afraid of telling the truth.
Fuck you, best buy
Re:Geek Squad conjecture.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Insider's View (Score:4, Interesting)
There's more to that story.
People are simply willing to believe that "evil corporations that want only to suck the $$$ out of every bank account they can sink their fangs into are capable of any rumored misdeed because...well, because they're EVIL."
The fact is that, while there are corporate-types who do wrong, that's also true in the small-business world as well (I could tell you stories about a local chain of computer retail stores here in the Houston, Texas area that would make any such 'Best Buy' story pale in comparison).
And the further fact is, our burgeoning free enterprise system, including "evil corporate America," is what has made all this low-priced tech feasible in the first place--not to mention giving jobs to every one of the small-minded punks here and elsewhere who would rather depend on simple-minded stories they can get those puny brains around, than actually THINK with them.
Yeah, I bet you can find several examples of b*stard GeekSquad managers with no integrity--in a chain as big as Best Buy, there're bound to be some of them. But you WON'T hear any stories about the ones that just do their jobs and try to please the customer.
"Man Bites Dog," you know.
Re:Winternals lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
I can testify to that large collection. Not a day went by in the three months I did support for one of the big oems, that I didn't talk to at least three people who were told by Best Buy to call us for their recovery discs. When we told the customer that all of our machines shipped with these discs, they'd start on about how Best Buy tacked on a $20 "optimization" onto their new pc...
From what I could gather, this "optimization" consisted solely of installing several incompatible versions of security software, cd burning software, and crap like weatherbug. Oh, and snagging the recovery cd's. My first day on the phones, I thought it was coincidence, until I mentioned it to a more senior tech.
"Oh, yeah, they take 'em. It's their policy or somethin'"
It still took a couple weeks before I believed it, but soon my script was,
"Do you have the CD's that came with your PC?"
"No, it didn't come with any..."
"So you got it at Best Buy then?"
"OMG, How'd you know?"
And since the item was now an "open box" refunds went right out (unless you were willing to make a big enough scene, I heard a few going on over the phone that made me cringe).
Long rant short, after talking with several people I worked with, my experiance was not unique. Basically, BB was trying it's damndest to make sure the customer came back for an expensive service call. Whether or not this is still common practice, I don't know as it's been a few years. I also stopped shopping there for anything about the time I had 20 different associates tell me how much they loved not working on commision in one visit.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:1, Interesting)
I agree that logging and other troubleshooting could be better (especially during startup). But the real reason it's easier to learn about Linux is that the Linux world is full of helpful people and numerous lists/bbs/etc, while anyone who knows anything about Windows stays the fuck away from the reinstall-monkeys.
Perhaps an example of "necessary" piracy... (Score:3, Interesting)
For instance, I've worked in commercial printers that literally had thousands of typefaces. Let's say you have a job you need printed on a printing press. You collect all the images, layout files, typefaces, etc., and you send that to the printer. The printer is supposed to delete those fonts when the job is complete. They don't, of course, so you have millions of pirated typefaces out there.
Another example: images that are only supposed to be used once, logos "retouched" and used in other publications, templates you're supposed to pay for obtained from non-traditional (i.e. free) sources, trials that miraculously seem to go on forever, etc.
Stuff like this happens in all kinds of offices all over the planet. There are so many companies out there who, if they took a real and honest accounting of the software and tools and plug-ins they have, would find that if they did actually purchase everything they own, they'd likely not have half of it. And if they did, they would have spent themselves into bankruptcy. But they rationalize that it's all necessary, it's something they need to do in order to do business. Indeed, many companies couldn't perform some of their services without the stuff they obtained.
I dunno. I think that, one day, someone really large with lots and lots of locations and chances to pirate stuff is going to get slammed with a huge fine and it's going to open a very large can of worms. If Best Buy really did use Winternals products illegally, it would not surprise me in the slightest, and it would be very, very typical of most companies, large and small.
P.S. And, yes, I can't claim my hands are completely clean.
P.P.S. Don't copy that floppy.
Define "Pirated"? (Score:3, Interesting)
To me, pirating (in the software/music sense) means: to copy without the legal right to do so.
If you install a bunch of software under license and then the licensing falls apart, making that software no longer licensed, you don't retroactively go back in time and "pirate" the software. You're simply using now unlicensed software - not copying it.
It's kind of like having sex with someone, dumping them, finding they still stalk you and then claiming they're a rapist. No, they had consensual sex with you. The fact that, since then, they've taken to doing something else that's illegal does not retroactively make them a rapist for having had sex when it was consensual.
Of course, screaming "rape!" in the press gets you a lot more headlines, helps you get more awareness of your product in the marketplace, and helps you strengthen your position in future negotiations with someone who really wants you to shut up, far more than saying, "They keep hanging around outside my window."
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, it's quicker all right...I had a situation where it was treated as mandatory.
Seems the Ol' Lady bought a house brand machine from MicroCenter and let them talk her into an extended warranty (best of motives -- she didn't want to make me drive across town to play SA). So the machine quit reading its floppy drive, during the extension period, and she called the provider who was several states away. No problemo, he said, just get the CD out of the orange sleeve and put it in the drive...she realized just in time that he was talking her through a format/reinstall. No way, she says, the machine boots and runs fine, it's just a problem with the floppy drive and I'm not going to wipe the data.
Sorry, he says, we warranty your computer, not your data, and we will not go further until you follow our instructions. When we're done, your computer will be as good as new. Of course, she gave him some instructions. I made a scene with the store management in front of customers and came away with some freebies, and the problem turned out to be a disk label that peeled off inside the drive.
rj
Re:Trustworthy (Score:4, Interesting)
That data, though, _DOESN'T GET DELETED_ from the GS machines after they're done.
I have, on multiple occasions, seen managers (especially the PCAM at my store) rifle through customer backups and take what they want, or ogle at the porn and whatnot in there - especially if the customer's female, and there's pictures of her in the My Pictures folder.
Geek Squad used to be good - then BBY bought 'em and made everything go straight to hell.
- CIA02** (last two numbers omitted in order to preserve anonymity)
Chrooted Registry (Score:5, Interesting)
Is there any reason for a user-level app to not get a 'chrooted' version of the registry that only allows write access under a certain tree node?
I mean, assuming Microsoft cared about security.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:5, Interesting)
** moved this line up because this is what I originally set out to write, but didn't. It is duplicated after the Disclaimer:
If you don't charge much and you run into a problem, that's because you don't have experience and so you have to take jobs that pay nothing, but if you charge an arm and a leg, by god, if you have a problem than wow, it must be a really hard problem.
Doesn't matter what the facts are, the guy that charges little and knows more is not given the respect that the other guy earns just by charging enormous sums.
Disclamer::
What follows actually diverged into a story about how by charging more I was actually able to do "fun" stuff and probably is quite boring. Fear not that it may actually support the above statment, after a while it begins to diverge and there is no reason for the reader to continue unless he/she finds it entertaining. I'm planning on coming back sometime and massaging it into a coherant article for posting with my cv, but frankly it's likely to be extremely rough and prone to many spelling errors, runon sentences, subject jumping and becomes just an ego boosting looking back on how by getting over the fact that I am not worth 6 figures, by asking for it, I've actually gotten more respect than when I "gave it away for free". The more you charge the more people respect you in this line of business it seems. Or to put it another way.
If you don't charge much and you run into a problem, that's because you don't have experience and so you have to take jobs that pay nothing, but if you charge an arm and a leg, by god, if you have a problem than wow, it must be a really hard problem.
Doesn't matter what the facts are, the guy that charges little and knows more is not given the respect that the other guy earns just by charging enormous sums.
Consider: When I stared out doing windows consulting, 1992 or so? I charged $20.00/hour for my services before that just helping people out. At this time, because of the need for command line experience, occassionally needing to gopher, fido, or bbs for drivers or hopefully less often write your own drivers my skills we a bit more extensive that today's "tech". I eventually got to the point where I said, hey lets try to do this full time, I should be able to squeeze by until I build a customer base.
Now that I was doing it full time and spending a bit of money for tools and such I felt justified in raising my rates to $45 an hour. The strange thing was that I immediately started to get a lot more customers, too many to handle really. So I raised my rates to $65 thinking that I would lose customers, but that I would have some time off work. Within 2 months my business volume doubled. Wouldn't it be nice if I was a businessman rather than some geek just having fun.
The fact is that while I was astute enough to understand that to customers my competence level was directly proportional to how much they were paying me, I couldn't see charging that much, it was more than I felt I was worth and I was worried about people paying too much. My company eventually folded a few years later when I tried to be fair to a customer by not overcharging them and I ended up having to pay several weeks of salary to employees without being compensated. But as I said before I am not a business man.
After the business collapsed I tried to get a job as a computer tech at what was then "average" wages 30-40k a year (roughly 199[56]). Let's say it went rather poorly. By accident I applied for a job that paid 80k/year more than twice the price guys with a few years of experience and college degrees were making, I was hired on the spot. Partially because the position paid well, I was considered for the job.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:3, Interesting)
"Generally universal incorrect response" - Green (based on the assumption that Apples are red when ripe and therefore you wouldn't eat a green apple.
So basically, when faced with an answer of a or b, sometimes c is the correct answer.
Re:Bust Buy creates business for others (Score:3, Interesting)
Easy to read and concise. Two thoughts strike me.
First, it is harder to close the $40/hr client than the $120/hr client because the $120 client is looking for solutions whereas the $40/hr client is more interested in how much he/she is paying and what "value" he/she is receiving. So given the choice, go after the $120 customer. Note: I'm too much of a techie and generally don't follow my own advice since I'm not thinking about the money, but about the project.
Second, I've got an even better answer for you...
"How much do you charge?"
"You can't afford me, but maybe you can get me interested" BTW, I'm thinking that it's more affective to actually not need the income when you say this, but depending on your client... I say it now because I just don't care anymore and I suck at negotiating for income for myself.
Lando
PS $120/hour at this point of time in the states for a consultant is too low. If your a professional, rather than a contract worker you need to charge what Professional Doctors and Professional Lawyers make, ie $300/hour minimum. Doctors in offices are selling the same hour to multiple patients thus the make far more than the $120 you equate to them making. Myself, I follow the rule of 3. 1 part to pay yourself, 1 part to pay for advertising and 1 part to tide you through til the next job. So if I want to make $100/hour roughly 200k a year I charge $300. For myself, I estimate that I'm work around 170k/year currently or roughly $90 dollars and hour and then I tack on 50% for the inconvience that consulting tacks on. This is my slack for customers that wish to purchase retainer services from me. The theory being, that if I don't have to go looking for your work, then I can just do my job and it's not an inconvience. So my base hourly rate is $150 an hour which translates to $450/hour for consulting. Remember of course that I'm tired of working so I figure that's my base and at this time I figure that anything over $500/hour for my services, if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.
The few people that have come to me haven't required anything special and I've been able to send them to some of my old students and other aquantences that can do the job at a resonable rate. Then if the client wants I'll take an hour or two to eat the code, which is where I'm actually worth my fee.
Anyway. Tired and heading to bed.
Night
I worked at Geeksquad... (Score:1, Interesting)
There were only 3-4 people working behind the counter in the store who knew what they were doing. The rest of the employees never would have been hired by a real computer repair shop.
One of the more experienced techs brought in some diagnostic software he personally purchased and we would use this to diagnose computers as they came in. When we approached management to buy enough licenses for the software so we could legally use it they barred us from using it at all. Instead, the management downloaded an
We presented a case to management begging them to buy us licenses for the other software as thats what we needed to do our jobs efficiently. They let us know if we couldn't figure out how to use the CD they provided we obviously didn't know how to do our jobs.
Screw Geek Squad, Screw Best Buy. They are Evil.