IRS Compels PayPal to Release Info

An anonymous reader writes "Just in time for the tax season, the IRS won a federal court ruling, allowing them to force PayPal to turn over records of American taxpayers who have certain foreign accounts. It's all part of an ongoing effort to track down money held in offshore accounts by would-be taxpayers. A spokesperson for PayPal acknowledged receiving the summons (PDF) and said 'We're still evaluating our options [...] The privacy of our customers' information is something we take really seriously.'"

First read

[LiquidCoooled]

First glance, whats the problem - paypal must follow requests for the law, then I read it and realised its another fishing mission.
They want paypal to give out the info of all US customers who use bank accounts in 30 taxhavens.

I really hope paypal manage to prevent this from happening, it seems like somebody has let power go to their head.

Hmm

[voice_of_all_reason]

I thought "fishing expeditions" were clearly a violation of unreasonable search and siezure.

Oh, wait. What's that you say? They might catch terrorists? Why, in that case, citizen #83264967 stands ready for duty! Just let me chug some victory gin before we get those bastards.

//yeah, I should probably be less cranky given that my work weed ends in 1h2m :)

I have no problem with this at all

[arothstein]

Why shouldn't these records be available to the IRS? Your brokers' records are, your bank records are. I'm not much in the mood to be an enabler for tax cheats and gamblers with unreported income. This is a non-story.

Re:First read

[Alex P Keaton in da]

I get a bunch of 1099s every year from my investment income- and the IRS gets copies... How is that much different?
If PayPal wants to act like a bank, they should, well, act like a bank.
I am all for a simpler tax code, and lower taxes. But until that happens, why should we all be bled dry by the IRS while people with accounts in tax havens get the advantages?
In all seriousness, how many good reasons could there be for a US citizen to have an account in a tax haven?

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd much rather just replace the whole bloated mess with a harder to evade, less invasive sales tax or VAT.

Re:Hmm

[Billosaur]

Oh, wait. What's that you say? They might catch terrorists? Why, in that case, citizen #83264967 stands ready for duty! Just let me chug some victory gin before we get those bastards.

RTFA. The word "terror" or "terrorist" doesn't appear anywhere. This isn't the usual US Government obfuscation in the hunt for terrorists. It's asking a global company to help round up deadbeats so they can be shaken until their fair share of the tax burden falls out.

State access to private databases

[Toby The Economist]

This case per se isn't so important, I think, compared to the larger issue.

Basically, successful private companies sometimes accumulate large amounts of user information.

The State is in general then obtaining access to that information - the recent Google subpoena comes to mind.

In other words, any large scale accumulation of data is in effect part of the State's ability to monitor citizens, since the State seems in general to be able to access that information as and when it wishes to do so.

This is worrying.

PayPablum

[Doc Ruby]

The privacy of PayPal operating an unregulated global bank, at the core of global retail ecommerce, is their highest priority. I hope the IRS is just the first Federal agency to get a grip on those Medicis, especially since they rip off people every chance they get.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[huge colin]

By living in the United States, a citizen agrees to give a percentage of their own income to the government. That's one of the rules of this club that we're all in. If you don't like that, you are free to leave and join a different club.

Not an IRS issue

[RagingChipmunk]

Many posters point out that the sales tax due on the sale of items is subject to State level taxation, not federal, so the IRS really isnt interested in knowing if you sold BeanieBabies without declaring it as income. I've often thought about sheltering pre-tax corporate revenue into a foreign (personal) account via paypal. The idea seemed too simple so I hesitated to pursue it (doh!).

Despite this being a 'federal' issue, the issue is scary in that it will set a precedent for state govts to force similar handovers of sales data. Since its clearly demonstratable that eBay/PayPal has detailed records of sales transactions, and that eBay/PayPal has reasonable knowledge of the locale of the Seller, Buyer, and ShipTo, that proper sales tax can/should be collected, as would any other retailer. Yes, its the responsibility of the seller to know/resolve the sales tax collection issue, but, its not a stretch to say that eBay/Paypal is 'sheltering' non-payers, and so be compelled to hand over records.

Let's start with the corporations

[SuperBanana]

Sorry, but I have to side with the IRS here. Everyone who isn't paying the taxes they're supposed to be deserves to be found out. People who cheat on their taxes just make the rest of us pay more.

I couldn't agree more. Corporations used to foot about 50% of the nation's tax bill. Want to guess where it is now? Hint: it's only one digit. The reason your taxes are "so high" is because your employer isn't paying any, if their accountant is worth their salt.

How do corporations avoid paying taxes?

• Corruption. Let's not beat around the Bush here. Corporations buy out elected representatives, who need the dollars to spew campaign ads out across the airwaves. Tax "incentive" after "incentive" snuck into bills completely unrelated.
• Job extortion. "If you don't give us a tax break, we'll take our X number of jobs elsewhere." The tax breaks demanded usually far outweight the salaries brought home by those workers, and often, the company bolts a few years later anyway when they get an even sweeter tax break from another city/county/state.
• Book cooking. Suddenly, gosh golly gee, the company just isn't making much money. Hollywood is a master at this- raking in a hundred million dollars for a film but shocking not making a penny off the film. Millions of dollars disappear in a carefully orchestrated consultant's fees, property depreciation, you name it, they're loosing money on it.
• "Independent contractors" whereever possible. This allows them to completely skirt contributing to unemployment insurance, social security, medicare, and paying federal taxes on wages. Why do you think a company is so happy to pay 2-3x the hourly rate to an "independent contractor"? Because they still make out like filthy bandits.
• Off-shore incorporation/reincorporation. Lot of US companies aren't actually US companies. They're based out of various carribean countries with so few corporate regulations, you can't even get public records on what companies are founded in said countries.

That's just a small sampling.

And you know what -really- steams me? The small business owners that use their companies as tax shelters. They happily barter for the majority of the services they need, they happily take cash under the table, employ illegal immigrants (woe is them, US citizens are just SO expensive. Then why is 4% of the country unemployed?), register their cars and trucks with commercial plates so they pay less insurance and dramatically less taxes, write off all their mileage as business expenses...the list goes on.

Ever wonder why Bubba the Landscaper has a brand new truck every single year, a huge house, 3-4 kids, a big powerboat and a summer place on the shore? It isn't because he's an investment genius. It's because he's NOT PAYING TAXES ON MOST OF HIS INCOME.

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[rwven]

I think people who whine about the america deficit need to step back and look at some of the deficits of european and other contries have. The ratio of tax income to national debt in America is SMALL fries compared to most european countries.

The US is FAR from the only country deep in debt and budgets wackiness.

While i do have a problem with the amount of money being spent by the US gov't, the one place that i would NEVER cut funding would be the military. If they want to cut funding they should cut funding to the pointless social programs paying people to sit around all day. A lot of people in this country refuse to find jobs because...why should they when the gov't sends them money for no reason.

This is bigger news than just paypal

[moochfish]

While I love seeing Paypal not getting their way, this ruling has much broader implications. All payment gateways and micropayment systems in the future (such as Google, I imagine) now have a legal precident that says they may need to turn over customer data to the IRS.

Also, does this issue already hold true for real-life equivalents such as credit cards and banks?

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[LordOfTheNoobs]

They aren't trying to find "known" tax evaders. They're trying to find the good Dr.Smith, who wants cash up front, does the surgery out back and then uses paypal to sneak his unreported income out of the country. They have reason to people are doing this, and they are looking for a way to track it.

That we spend too much is nonissue when it comes to finding those that avoid paying their share of the nations budget. Presumably, they would avoid even if we had a smaller debt. After all, I somehow doubt it's the poor and honest doing this.

Seems more a rich and/or to cover up further illegal activities sort of thing to do...

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[Anonymous Coward]

If they want to cut funding they should cut funding to the pointless

social programs paying people to sit around all day.

Isn't this what we pay our military for most of the time?

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[AuMatar]

So, you would rather people in the US die of starvation, malnutrition, and lack of medication? Oh yeah, and let the elderly who are no longer able to work die on the streets. You'd rather spend it on killing people over waepons of mass destruction. Oh, except they didn't exist. Good to know.

When you say things like that, what it basicly means is you think people like my grandmother- 80 years old, suffering from macular degeneration, and having lost an arm to cancer- should have been living in the streets. She should have had no help for her sight, she should have had no help for her heart medication. In other words, she should have died a decade before she did.

All I can do to that kind of sick world view is most sincerely wish that you *DO* suffer that kind of pain. Fucking asshole.

Wait a Minute

[Einstein_101]

I think most of you are missing the big picture. Any of you seen the movie "Enemy of the State?" Will Smith was just like most of you.


Yeah that's exactly how it always starts. All the "honest citizens" sign away all their rights in hopes of catching the criminals. However, in order to do that, you have to treat the "honest citizens" like criminals.

I don't care who you are, there is something in your lifestyle or habits that resembles something a criminal would do. Where do you draw the line?

Also, I thought slashdot was the home of comspiracy theories?

In 2001, there was a discrepency of $311 billion between what was owed and what people paid. $311 billion! Since when do we trust big coporations around here? The governement HAS to be the biggets corporation of them all! People think about it: In order to estimate how much money they're missing, they'd have to have some idea as to who wasn't paying. If they had kind of lead, they'd be auditing that class of tax payers (which they probably are).

Sorry About That

[Einstein_101]

I think most of you are missing the big picture. Any of you seen the movie "Enemy of the State?" Will Smith was just like most of you.

"Why do I care if they're invading my privacy? I'm not doing anything illegal!"

Yeah that's exactly how it always starts. All the "honest citizens" sign away all their rights in hopes of catching the criminals. However, in order to do that, you have to treat the "honest citizens" like criminals. Before you know it, everything you buy or say over the phone gets you red flagged. There are examples of false alarms of good people posted all over the net. I don't care who you are, there is something in your lifestyle or habits that "resembles the criminal profile." Where do you draw the line?

Also, I thought slashdot was the home of comspiracy theories?

In 2001, there was a discrepency of $311 billion between what was owed and what people paid. $311 billion!

Talk about propaganda! People think about it: In order to estimate how much money they're missing, they'd have to have some idea as to who wasn't paying. If they had kind of lead, they'd be auditing that class of tax payers (which they probably are). This is just another platform for Government Agencies to push their agendas of privacy invasion.

ps: I hit "Submit" instead of "Preview". I trid to hit stop, but I couldn't catch it in time. Sorry for the inconvience.

Re:Aww, poor tax evaders!

[Deagol]

A lot of people in this country refuse to find jobs because...why should they when the gov't sends them money for no reason.

I agree. But ever wonder why so many people try to scam the system like this?

Um, I dunno... maybe a feeling of disenfranchisement? The thought that they've been fleeced their entire lives by excess taxes to fund worthless pork?

Yeah, I know. The US dosn't have the most-taxed population in the world, but that still doesn't make it any more correct.

One year I got very bored and very curious, and for 6 months, I tracked every single cent that I spent, and all forms of taxes extracted from it. That included breaking out the state/federal taxes for every gallon of gas, sales taxes, income taxes withheld from my paychecks, vehicle registration/taxes, property taxes, and all those damned taxes and "fees" on utility and telecom bills. The grand total was about 50% of my gross pay -- and I was making just over $50k/yr at that time. Given how regressive (I think I have that right), lower income working would get shafted a lot harder. WTF?

So in some sense, I can't blame some people for trying to fleece a system that has fleeced them for so long.

I just changed jobs -- cut my salary to about 1/3 of what I was making. This was intentional. It so happens that my new annual earnings will be just a hair over the yearly income for a family of 4 to receive the maximum of the earned income credit, which is about $4400. See IRS Publication 596" [irs.gov] for details, including the income/benefit tables.

Our family's self-imposed low cost of living will result in the gub'ment giving us a $4k gift next year, and our standard of living is pretty comfortable as it is. Is this playing the system? Perhaps. But as Lazlo once said, "Well they set up the rules. Lately I've come to realize that I have certain materialistic needs."

You wanna cut EIC? Go ahead -- so long as you cut industry subsidies (farm, energy, etc.) and corporate welfare (tax-paid sports venues, no-bid contracts, etc.). I'm very libertarian, but I'll take any breaks within this corrupt tax structure that we have.

Re:Let's start with the corporations

[Gorshkov]

Ever wonder why Bubba the Landscaper has a brand new truck every single year, a huge house, 3-4 kids, a big powerboat and a summer place on the shore? It isn't because he's an investment genius. It's because he's NOT PAYING TAXES ON MOST OF HIS INCOME.

Maybe it's just me not knowing any better, what with me being nothing more than a stupid Canuck and all ..... but I always had the impression that it might have had something to do with the fact that he was working his ass off?