Google v. Microsoft 602
ph43thon writes "The New York Times business section has an article, The Coming Search Wars, about Google and Microsoft. It's fairly long and pretty interesting. Oddly, the writer or somebody out there, seems to think that Google v. Microsoft is analogous to Netscape v. Microsoft. I wasn't aware that you needed to download special software to run this Google search application. Somehow, I don't think Microsoft will find this fight to be as easy."
It's like Netscape v. Microsoft in that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Google is different than Netscape in that it is very high quality, something Microsoft isn't likely to match (I am continually amazed at how badly the search engine at microsoft.com sucks) and also because Google actually has a business model, i.e., they have customers, e.g., people willing to pay them money to do stuff.
The way I see it, it's Google's to lose. They can still mess up in execution. They're expanding into other areas very quickly... perhaps too quickly. And they wield a tremendous amount of power in that search engine, so much so that I doubt that the feds haven't already requested "special access" to the query logs, and maybe one day, the power to alter result listings. (Yeah, you'd be laughing if I told you that the feds made Adobe put anti-counterfeiting code in Photoshop too I bet.)
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:5, Interesting)
And sincerely, I doubt Microsoft will come up with anything more efficient that Google.
Progress? That's Google's job. Competition? Microsoft is no competition in this area. Google wins by having a well-thought search system that beats anything else.
Yes, I am biased. Google is "da shit" =)
Barriers to entry (Score:3, Interesting)
Similarities (Score:5, Interesting)
It's the argument that searching is about to become really important to them as a business sales technique - the new filesystem is a database, the integration of a web search engine makes your PC behave like a cache of the 'net. Etc. Owning the 'search' territory will help their marketing significantly, so they'll be serious about trying to get it.
I wouldn't write them off either - just because we all use google now doesn't mean we won't switch at the drop of a hat if something "better" (better can be 'easier to use' rather than 'more appropriate results') comes along. Altavista, anyone ?
Simon
matching toolbars (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry but I'll stick with google's toolbar.
I think the internet needs google to remain independent from Microsoft, yahoo, Sun, etc...
No Switching Cost (Score:3, Interesting)
what if...? (Score:2, Interesting)
Google link to NYT article (Score:2, Interesting)
The Coming Search War [google.com]
MSN, Just a Poor Search Engine? (Score:5, Interesting)
Number of results for the search "linux"
at http://www.google.com/ : "about 12,500,000."
at http://search.msn.com/ : "about 429"
That's way more than a little difference. That's a ratio of about 431034:1.
I'm bored so let's try the same thing with "microsoft":
google: "about 9,470,000"
msn: "about 3856"
This time it's a ratio of about 24559:1 . Draw your own conclusions. At the very least I think msn is just a shitty search.
And yes I'm biased! I LOVE IT!
What I think will be interesting is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Assuming, of course, that Microsoft builds a better search engine, of course.
Re:No, it could be very easy. (Score:3, Interesting)
The killer moment will be when they make the search experience for files on your desktop much better. I use Google today as my homepage, but the day when I get into the habit of searching for my files using Windows (today, it's not worth the trouble), it's trivial to extend that interface to search the web as well. Unfortunately, I think google does not have a strong, defensible position.
Re:Its about defaults (Score:1, Interesting)
I think Google and Mozilla should team up before it's too late. Mozilla should have Google.com as the default homepage (I certainly do that anyway) and Google should put in a small link recomending that people use Mozilla.
- Henrik
TheOpenCD.org [theopencd.org]
Analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not so sure.
Yes, Microsoft did use their desktop OS monopoly to get IE onto everyone's computer, but they did it at just the right time -- Netscape had gone way downhill, and people wanted a browser that worked half decently.
Even if they integrate MSN Search, people will still use Google because it is lightyears better -- Google is even a verb now because of it.
Google should sue. (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem with the antitrust cases against MS so far have been that they've taken place after the illegal activity. I feel pretty strongly that Google should sue for a preliminary injunction against MS promoting any new search engine via any media embedded in the client (desktop icons, homepage, et cetera.) Such a judgement might come along in time for it to be useful, and it would leave them on much more even footing.
It might be hard to get though because such a judgement would necessarily drive a wedge between MS's network services (MSN, messenger, passport, hotmail, et cetera) and their OS/application software. For example, it might mean that if MS wanted to embed their new search engine in MSN, they couldn't use it as IE's default homepage anymore. They'd have to pick between using MSN to promote the search engine and using IE to promote MSN.
I think that would be a Good Thing, but a judge could see it as a strong argument against such an injunction.
The .NET Angle (Score:2, Interesting)
The free Google API isn't really as good as it could be. It works but I suspect if Microsoft incorporated their search engine into Visual Studio, or even just through the existing lists of available
Google doesn't use windows servers. That would certainly limit their ability to compete in the
Re:Its about defaults (Score:2, Interesting)
Somehow my mother, who is rather tech inept, found google.
Incremental Googling (Score:5, Interesting)
I like Google because it is fast, real fast and uncluttered, but the results are not better that Teoma or AllTheWeb. The link analysis that was unique to Google, 6 years ago, was the real quantum leap forward. But now everybody else has caught up. It appears to me that the differentiation is fast, bug-free quality of service and a clean UI.
Short of another breakthrough from Google, I think Microsoft could still clobber Google. Google has got no stickiness.
Non issue for me (Score:2, Interesting)
At work, I do have to use their products, but everywhere else it is Open Software. I see a growing number of users downloading little widgets that make search a bit quicker, so there is some room for Microsoft to play. It is not hard to just ask for Google though, so I can't see these affecting the audience as much as, say shipping a free browser.
Google has a very high mindshare right now. Most computer users, who know anything about what they are doing, know what Google is. Since a fair number of those users are actually running Microsoft stuff, intergration will grab some of them, but it will only stick if the quality rises above what it is now. (Something I seriously doubt will happen in the near term.) Factor in word of mouth combined with slow upgrade cycles and Microsoft does not have an easy task set in front of them.
Microsoft can grab the noobs and clueless users who won't know or can't know the differences early on. Longer term, this is a problem because Google needs to continue to attract new users. I suppose the lack of new bodies will cause Google some longer term grief, but quality matters here, so I imagine they will still get their share. It is not that tough to try out different search services, unlike browsers.
Given these things, I just can't see Microsoft taking over Internet search. If they spend enough, they will get an audience, then what? Ads? Subscriptions? Intergration? They are going to have to work hard to provide a lot of value in order to profit. The simple, quality message coming from Google is going to be hard to beat.
I'll bet they are going to try and claim to have search be part of the 'Microsoft Office System' brand they are pimping right now. They have already done it with Placeware, why not search? This has a chance with the business crowd and might steal revenue from the Google Ad Words program. Maybe this is the area they are looking hard at. Making money from ads delivered to noobs and the casual/clueless is not going to make anyone rich, but getting the attention of businesses trying to run targeted marketing efforts online would. Microsoft might actually have a chance at this.
In the end, still a non-issue. Still am not going to use their search, even if it happens to be a bit better. Will spend a lot of time letting others know why also.
Re:It's like Netscape v. Microsoft in that... (Score:2, Interesting)
The battle is exactly the same. Google currently does not return the high quality results as it once did. To use google in IE requires some effort. Many people have only used MS, and do not know that there are other ways to do things. MS search is enable automatically. In fact, last time I checked it was very difficult not to have everything go through MS search.
Google will lose if MS is allowed to leverage it's platform. It would probably take very little to significantly impair the google tool bar in IE. MS can make it's search engine the only one that will work with the IE search button. MS can force all user connections, even fully qualified URLs, to pass through MS search engine.
Google can only win if MS follows the spirit on the settlement with the US goverment. If MS follows on the letter of the law, google could be in serious trouble by the end of the year.
Re:No Switching Cost (Score:3, Interesting)
And that's "very easy"?????
Google isn't perfect by any means, and sure, you could do better, but it's damn good, and besting it sure as hell wouldn't be "very easy."
Re:It's like Netscape v. Microsoft in that... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, there is one ace card in Microsoft's back pocket which you left out : Microsoft's Theory Group [microsoft.com]. MS supports a very high-powered discrete math and computer science group, comparable to that of a top-notch university. It's not just deep pockets here : it's a long-term commitment to building up a substantial research group pursuing fundamental research on problems closely allied to various technical issues. Noteably, this includes web searches, which is really just a problem in graph theory.
One needs to be extremely cautious in comparing the relative maturity of two technologies. The IE/NS analogy shows that MS can rapidly catch up to an existing technology, since they can afford to outspend and outlast any competitor. The only survival strategy is to evolve more rapidly than MS can follow; NS failed in that game by version 4, and it has only been relatively recently that other browsers (noteable Mozilla and Safari) have posed serious competition to the now-stagnant IE. Based on the existing high-powered theory already within MS, I am willing to bet that not only will MS have caught up to Google within 1-2 years, but they very well may also proceed to blow right past them.
Bob
You're all missing the point. (Score:2, Interesting)
Conversely, Microsoft is interested in branding itself into the public consciousness, and collecting a tidy profit.
To these ends, Microsoft will continue to buy out assets that it feels it can mold into a blunt weapon. Google comes off as a sort of diabolical genius, sneaking behind the scenes, signing unholy licensing pacts, and so forth.
I know it's highly unfashionable to speak ill of Google, but you're a fan of tinfoil hats, I would think you had more to fear from Google than Microsoft.
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:4, Interesting)
i'm proclaiming google the winner because i am actively working against the microsoft search by participating in the boycott
if you have a website and want to participate in the boycott it's darn simple.
User-agent: MSNBOT
Disallow: /
then, sit back in triumph that you have struck another blow to the jugular of the beast of redmond.
no. really.
It's really KPCB vs Microsoft. (Score:5, Interesting)
A bigger picture you can have is when you look at the investors behind each of Google, AOL, Sun, Netscape, Macromedia, and many more. Kliener Perkins Caufield & Byers [kpcb.com] is one of the leading Venture Capital firms out here, and they're behind every one of those companies [kpcb.com]! And they're not shy about talking about the "collective strength and experience" [kpcb.com] that they encourage among their portfolio.
I think it's really the cultural difference that makes Silicon Valley strong. Companies like Microsoft grow by becoming having zillions of divisions that do some of everything. In the bay area, perhaps no single piece can compete with microsoft as a hole, but the combined plays of all these slighlty related companies really becomes significant. In Microsoft, each of those functions is a division that is shelterd by the parent organization. In Silicon Valley, each is a separate company that has to survive on its own merits. If one fails, and the market segment it focused on is still important, another may be funded to take its place.
Not only superior technology (Score:3, Interesting)
So if Microsoft was to beat google, how would they do it? They could use local tools on the OS that collects user information, e.g. scanning office documents and downloaded e-mail to get a user profile that could be fed into the search engine to get better quality of search results. However, such things could backfire seriously if users felt that their personal privacy was at stake.
Re:What I think will be interesting is... (Score:4, Interesting)
The only way that Google is going to continue to improve on an already outstanding engine is through competition - even from Microsoft! Additionally, a good, well-built product range, fair Microsoft company would be nicer to have than the current (read: "so far has been") incarnation. Yes! There, I've said it - I want Microsoft to succeed: but only as a respected IT company delivering uncompromised less buggy (let's not get too carried away here) software/products without man-handling of smaller companies, aggressive take-overs, lies/FUD and what not.
However, there are times when you feel a particular company has crossed that psychological "screw-you" line far too often and so you don't hold your breath for much longer than a BogoMip when hearing about their "Next Big Thing TM".
Mind you, if Microsoft does make it decent, my bet is that
"Assuming, of course, that Microsoft builds a better search engine, of course."
As someone once said to me: "Rule Number One: Never Assume.
Re:It's like Netscape v. Microsoft in that... (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, webmasters can prevent Microsoft from crawling their sites, but, hehe, what about web sites running IIS? Would Microsoft be so low as to "embellish" the robots.txt file hosted on IIS sites so as to include a line forbidding the GoogleBot?
Man, let's all get down on our knees and kiss the ground the Apache developers walk on, huh?
Re:But.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Progress toward what? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Stop with that tired, false statistic. (Score:3, Interesting)
You've missed the critical point (Score:5, Interesting)
When users are trying to find something like 'funny billy goatse photo' their hard drive and Microsoft's search engine will be used together. Unknowingly, MSN search will be a part of everyday life.
Microsofts next monopoly abuse is pretty clear already, their technology demos show it too. They will integrate and before you can say 'Anti-trust investigation' the world at large will be using MSN search for _everything_ - information is power too.
Keep close tabs on Microsoft's actions, unfortunately when they are punished by EU/USA its too late.
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:5, Interesting)
b. Type in the keywork "linux"
c. Click "Search"
d. Examine the top 2 results:
1. Buy Linux software at the Amazon.com software store.
2. Find great deals on Linux software and accessories. Also find millions of other items in over 18,000 categories.
It was even funnier a few months ago: one of the top search results was some "migrating from Linux to Windows" article.
Microsoft's search engine will undoubtedly be geared towards selling their products and the products of businesses that have a strategic alliance with Microsoft. Doesn't sound like a comprtehensive tool to me.
Cheers
Stor
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:5, Interesting)
Google visits my site once or twice a week. Altavista and Inkomi both make regular monthly visits. MSN has paid someone them for that data, because while I have no record of their site's visit, I can find my site on theirs if I look really specifically.
As for searches, I've had 43 visits thank to google for my piddly non-commercial homepage. Most of my visitors have actually come from Slashdot (unfortunately, my client is not altogether accurate knowing that everything ending in "slashdot.org" is actually the same site, so I don't have an accurate count).
I believe this is a microcosm of how it is for most sites with respect to google and Microsoft: they do not have an effective search engine.
Somehow everyone assumes that MS techology will be (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:You've missed the critical point (Score:2, Interesting)
But then you say:
So - Improving file search in Windows and integrating web search is a bad thing? Making Windows better is a bad thing? You'd have to be a *nix zealot to seriously mean such a thing.
Microsoft will not stop Google or any other search engine in their next iteration of Windows/IE. Microsoft is going to make it a whole lot easier to use MSN Search, but hey, it's their OS. Personally, I applaud the effort. Maybe Google et all will improve because of Microsofts efforts.
Simple! (Score:3, Interesting)
1) kill all browsers on the most popular computing platform. Result, IE sole available browser (oh, wait, they already did this).
2) make IE automatically point google.* URL requests to msn-search.
QED.
Darn, I just spelled out the obvious. Now the evil doesn't even have the excuse of stupidity
Just wait for longhorn... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is just like Netscape vs. IE. Just wait until longhorn comes out. MS's search engine will be integrated into windows (where it will undoubtedly function as not only a search engine but it will handle all memory access as well, so it can't be removed). It will have the entire web cached and right there waiting for you. It will then use your spare bandwidth to update itself continuously. Who will want to go all the way to google.com to do a search when the entire web is available right on your own computer? Google is doomed for sure.
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:5, Interesting)
already done. Actually, if you have the address bar enabled in the explorer windows (as I do, since I like being able to switch directories by typing in a new path instead of clicking with the mouse for a while), you discover that there's also an option to "search from the address bar" that needs to be shut off.
Evil, evil, evil. I want 404s or 'not found' or 'invalid path', not MSN Search (or worse one of the 8 million XyzSearch websites that are out there squatting on misspelled domain names...)
I have just one problem with the MS will win theor (Score:5, Interesting)
Game consoles? Nope. Microsoft Phone? Nope. Interactive TV? Nope. MSN? Nope.
MS is not exactly scoring a 100% with the products it releases. The OS and office suit do well. So do their PDA's although this is because everyone else is really screwing up.
Lets not forget that netscape lost because it couldn't keep up. Linux users will remember being lumbered with Netscape 4.2. Windows users just switched to IE.
So does google loose? Maybe if they screw up but I don't think the bundling thing is going to help MS all that much. MSN is bundled and has so far totally failed to take over the market or turn a profit.
Of course one tiny little detail is that MS doesn't need to make a profit. I cleans out its consumers so much on the OS and office suit it can afford to have several money drains going on at once. MS can afford to screw up countless times. I doubt google has that luxury.
closed vs open source (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, and you can call this a hunch, I doubt that Microsoft is going to lose sleep over the lack of "M$ droolz, Linux roolz" type sites that will participate. As a user of search engines, I certainly wouldn't mind.
Re:Lets hope that the result is progress (Score:2, Interesting)
Sry, but in the 4.0 days, IE beat the hell out of Netscape. Easily. Cry foul if you must, but do it knowing that IE bested Netscape technically, as well as with (perhaps unfair) convenience. I've been in the web-based application business for quite a while and only now is Mozilla looking to be worthy of competing. Of course, nothing beats Konqeror for integration and usefulness (KParts > all), but it's HTML rendering skills need some work. They'll get there. But that's another post...
The search engine war, if there is to be one, will be interesting to view but the outcome may not please the anti-MS camp. Hmmmm. One thing I just thought of: on my Gnome box I'm looking at a Mozilla screen, specifically the "Search" button that I had to reconfigure to point to Google. Chore? Yes. Same thing that MS will do? Likely. But I guess what's good for one...
jc
Re:MSN search against google (Score:2, Interesting)
Searchtextfoo
is the day Microsoft won.
I'm sure all of us who've ever had to search Microsoft's site have found that Google does a better job than Microsoft on their own site.
Microsoft can't index their own sites well.... (Score:2, Interesting)
NO. Instead after spending quiet some time setting all the options you want and searching your results return a fair bit of marketing, usually a pile of stuff from the japanese site and some totally unrelated links about why you should upgrade to the latest system / software.
What do I do now. Go to google, and almost everytime find the relevant microsoft page within the first 20 results on google.
Google indexes Microsoft's pages better than Microsoft does so how can one even begin to believe that Microsoft can index anyone elses site.
Oh and how many of you out there have you homepage set as www.google.com I know I do it on every computer I have as it means the load time is quick and I'm at the web page I use by far the most often.