Success Despite College Rejection 436
selan writes "Are those who are rejected by prestigious schools destined to lead mediocre lives? Or are great people more likely to succeed if they were rejected by top universities? An inspirational column in the Washington Post discusses the "Spielberg Effect", a theory that it really doesn't matter where you went to school."
for my PhD... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Since (Score:2, Insightful)
huh (Score:3, Insightful)
E.g. if you become the head of a medium-sized business selling widgets worldwide then you have "succeeded". Big Fucking Deal.
The point of life is to have fun. That's it.
I recommend not working. Why give most of your life to an unfeeling corporation ?
I also recommend not getting married. It always ends in tears.
Forget what society expects you to be. Ignore what your parents want you to be. Be what you want to be- for yourself and no-one else.
graspee
does it matter at all? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've come to the conclusion that school doesn't matter at all except for three things:
1. You might learn something, but NOBODY will know that except you. If it helps you--great. Maybe you could have learned on the job or from a book too.
2. Some idiotic people require you to have a degree, but they don't care from where. There are a lot of these people, some of them will wield a great deal of power over your life.
3. You might make some friends. You friends might help you to get a job or some important break some day. If you go to an expensive school you might wind up with expensive friends who can get you an expensive break.
So going to a "good school" I think boils down to getting "expensive friends" and if you think that will be important to your career (obviously it would help Spielberg get his first film out) then maybe it's worth paying the $$$ and working your ass off to get in.
I've also heard that the programme at Harvard, etc., really isn't any more difficult than at other schools. The tough part is getting in.
So...
It doesn't surprise me at all that there is little difference between going to a good university and going to a "bad" one. It wouldn't even surprise me much if someone wrote up a study showing that there wasn't a lot of difference between going to university and not going.
The same argument would work: maybe the kind of people who apply to universities are the "good people" who will succeed--and if they don't actually go to university they will still be good people who will succeed.
In my work experience (computer related) I found that my education was pretty critical getting the first one or maybe two jobs. After that people only cared about my experience--so whatever the value of an education is, it's short lived in my career. I can imagine it's the same everywhere.
Re:Qualifications (Score:2, Insightful)
OK, but what do they do when HTML becomes obsolete? I know it's a hackneyed point, but education really does - in my experience - broaden the mind. After a degree in physics (because that was what I found interesting) I got a job in electronics without too much problem. Others, with more vocational electronics qualifications, found it easier. Since then I have moved fairly easily into systems design and control systems; some people who (over-) specialised in electronics are now struggling.
Observational Selection ? (Score:3, Insightful)
The effects of a rejection could be positive or negative. There could be many reasons why Greg Forbes Siegman did what he did...too many variables and circumstances. "theorising" does not seem to be the right thing to do.
Re:Teacher from HELL (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:for my PhD... (Score:2, Insightful)
Personality matters. (Score:5, Insightful)
The college you go to doesn't matter*
*Elitist wall-street and legal firms not included.
It's not the degree.. (Score:1, Insightful)
After failing high school miserably, I wasn't able to get into any university. While all my friends started their degrees, I was forced to go to a 'lower level' form of tertiary education (let's just say it's not a university).
Anyway, long story short, I used that 'failure' as the reason for kicking everybody's ass. I made sure that I beat everybody in all my classes (academically of course
More importantly, I started thinking positively to attract positive energy. I figured, if I do bad things, bad things will happen to me. If I do good things (or just don't do bad things), then karma will kick in.
And it worked. That was 5 years ago. Now I have a diploma, and degree with Honors! (I found a way to a university). My final year was under scholarship, during which I also had a full time job doing R&D. Now I work for a very large, solid global company doing exactly what I want.
Along the way I learned a lot of things. But more importantly I learnt about myself - when to apply pressure, when to relax, when to go out, when to study, when to spend time with my family.
Hard work and enthusiasm. That's all it takes. If you do your part, God will do the rest.
Now I plan to get lots and lots of money, and then show all the rich people how they should be helping others instead of buying unnecessary things (like expensive shit). I don't know how I'm going to do it. I just know it will happen.
Re:huh (Score:5, Insightful)
There's an old saying that if you want to be happy you need three things.
1. Something to do - Usually translates to some sort of job. You'll never be happy if you don't contribute to society and waste the gifts you've been given.
2. Someone to Love - Go ahead never take a risk because it ends in tears. Marriage also ends in tears of laughter. I've shed tears in my marriage but I can't imagine my life without her.
3. Something to look forward to - Without hope, life is pointless. You sound like you need something to look forward to.
A couple of more thoughts on your less salient points.
E.g. if you become the head of a medium-sized business selling widgets worldwide then you have "succeeded". Big Fucking Deal
I hate to break the news to you but the Big Fucking Deal of being the head of the medium-sized business isn't the glamorous challenge of selling widgets, its the lifestyle which such a position would afford you. It means a comfortable house, a car more enjoyable than a used Hyundai, and the resources to travel and enjoy a few vacations.
The point of life is to have fun. That's it.
If you think thats the entire point of life, you're missing the point. Perhaps the point is making a difference in the lives of others. That head of a business employs other people and in a small mundane way, probably makes the world a better place.
Having fun is much easier with a job. I enjoy skiing. Lift tickets cost money. I enjoy gadgets. Gadgets costs money. The irony is that if you make money your goal, you're doomed to unhappiness and you won't have any fun. A money centered or self centered life will guaranteee very little fun and very little joy.
I choose joy.
Re:for my PhD... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Since (Score:3, Insightful)
If your wicket's not already sticky in reverie, I have two more words taken from the British Boy's Own Lexicon: soggy biscuits, a treat seemingly unique to the cuisine of that northern island country of queens.
I'm not serious, of course - I love England, and we'll pretend I didn't wish I could have spent my formative years in boarding school there, myself. The point is, you're making (ethnic?) prejudicial slurs against "the Greeks", begging comparison back to your own quirky system. In the U.S., the partying buffoons are allowed to expose themselves, have a good time, burn out, and eventually become used-car dealers and fast-food restaurant managers; in yours, they seem rather more likely to become "captains of industry." That's only natural, since you've had a few hundred more years to build up the Old Boy (bedsheet) Network.
Re:huh (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words, you have a crappy job, no prospects and women can't stand the sight of you.
Therefore, you define happiness as containing none of those things.
Boy, that sure is profound.
Re:I don't even think going at all is that importa (Score:2, Insightful)
Take interest in professional associations, ensure that in your work assignments you make use of the skills you learnt (analytical, critical thinking, good judgement), retain connections with your peers in the industry from university, etc. Make better use of your education.
Studies show that after 5-10 years, university educated students catch up and surpass those that didn't go to university. University pays off eventually, but you have to make it work for you.
Re:As Per Usual, Slashdot Readers Go Hyperbolic (Score:1, Insightful)
Two things wrong here. The first is assuming creativity is not a thinking process. It is. You don't think a film Diector's job is primarily about solving problems? Because I can assure you it is. The problems are to do with how to evoke an audience reaction, but as Hollywood's output proves, not many people are able to do it well. The number of people who can do it well and consistently are few indeed.
The other thing I would dispute is that University teaches you to think. In my experience, University does no such thing. The number of incurious, unintellectual, ignorant unndergrads I met at college surprised and disappointed me. The number of undergrads who actually apply critical thinking skills to anything outside their narrow degree specialisation, is few indeed.
In theory you go to University to feed a passion for learning. In practice, you go to improve your chances of getting a job, and for the most part, this involves learning a lot about a narrowly-defined area. Fine if your job is a technical one, hopeless if your aim is to get an education.
When I interview, I ignore education entirely (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything else depends on how you answer my programming questions. If you have an MIT Ph.D, what good is that if you don't know answers to rudimentary programming questions? I don't care about "capacity to learn" at this point, I want someone who can produce. Being a big thinker is far less important to me than the ability to crank out good code fast. In fact I have found the big thinkers to be more useless than the humble trench soldier.
Re:for my PhD... (Score:1, Insightful)
your competition is what matters (Score:3, Insightful)
However when you go to a top school which has higher admission requirements, your peers are generally smarter or harder working than at a local community college. Guess what? This matters when classes are graded on curves as you compete and learn from your classmates. This is what really matters.
University matters for other reasons (Score:2, Insightful)
There are some things which a university, or rather, the life around the university has to offer which are not so obvious. It allows people to 'find themselves': to become a lot more 'relaxed' in life. it allows one to experiment, to find things they like, to learn how to live with people. it builds character. It's a weird thing, which is not easily put into words, but believe me: there is time enough to work later on. There are people at my university which spend all time studying and there are those who still live with their parents. Those people wont learn anything. Sure, they'll probably get A grades, but they will have missed SO MUCH.
A reason people are more eager to hire people from a university is not because they 'know' more, it's because they have proven they are able to finish a job. This is why credentials are also important later on.
Success in life lies not with how much money you make, it's character and personality which will decide how 'successfull' you are.
Just my 2ct rant.
As Bill Cosby put it.... (Score:2, Insightful)
what about slackers? (Score:1, Insightful)
decline of the lone geek (Score:2, Insightful)
Thus the best course of action would be to goof off by socializing where-ever you can. Socialize, socialize, socialize. Go to a cheap school and save yourself the money.
Jobs that one can do without much interaction are slowing being shipped overseas to people who are paid $2 an hour. The lone geek is going the way of the factory worker.
That's just life.
True greatness. (Score:3, Insightful)
I really shouldn't have to be saying this, but the things that lead to sucess are character and hard work. Where one goes to school makes no difference at all. The ivy league schools get a good reputation because they are able to pick and choose applicants who they believe have the character and intelligence to suceed. From there it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Going to Harvard no more gives you character and discipline any more than not going there deprives you of them.
When one looks at history it is evident that most of the great discoveries and accomplishments were achieved by those with mediocre academic records. Einstein was working as a patent clerk because he couldn't get a teaching job. Edison didn't even have a sixth grade education. Both Newton and Maxwell were undistinguished prior to their major discoveries.
Once upon a time people understood that it is character and hard work that lead to greatness, why our culture has forgotten that I just don't know. Nowadays people seem to think that success is some kind of trick, or is achieved though one's image. So people chase after degrees from the ivy league because they think that if other people think that they are great then they will be. Sorry Charlie, the most someone with that approach will achieve is the ability to con everyone including themself. True greatness comes from within and it is not something that can be bought, faked or manufactured.
Lee
Re:does it matter at all? (Score:1, Insightful)
I attended an engineering university, so everyone I knew was extremely bright. They ranged from average and extremely hard working to insanely smart and working on up to 4 degrees at once, with an almost perfect gpa (physics, EE, CS, CompE - amazing guy, 4 yrs). Anyone who wasn't able to cut it dropped by sophmore year or squeezed through with numerous repeats and numerous blemishes. It might have been easier to get in, but staying in was another matter.
Admission is tough, but the education may not be as hardcore as lesser known schools. An ivy-leage is a men's club, where your proud to belong. It says little about academic quality, and if you look into it you'll notice numerous tricks only those schools use to boost GPAs and make the average look better. Cuz, if your rich, you bought your way into the school and damn it, the school has better make you look smart.
Re:for my PhD... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that the story behind the percentage of graduate students might be a little bit more complicated than the one you present.
It is true that small class environments are better. One has to think about the kind of student that decides to go to one of these "lesser known"1 schools over a more famous one. Most of the time these students will be people who are more interested in the work they will be doing in school than in the self-promotion value of the degree. Thus they see their college education as worthwhile in and of itself instead as just another requirement to fullfil on the way to success.
1 I use quotation marks because while most people don't know about schools like swarthmore or haverford people who make decisions in graduate schools do.
Re:for my PhD... (Score:3, Insightful)
As for "popular prestige," the term is vague because I'm simplifying. But it roughly refers to the school's standing in popular culture. There obviously is no agreement on it. Yet, the most common objection I hear when recommending schools is, "I've never heard of it." People will be steadfastly adamant on this point, often spluttering and rationalizing on the spot (and sounding like morons) when I ask for evidence and justification. If I press the issue, it invariably turns out that they can't even name a couple of dozen schools in total (not including "University of X"). So much for "popular prestige."
The term is about as vague as your reference to "academic reputation." Now, if you mean that you've done the legwork to find out hard facts about the department you're applying to, then I applaud you. Any component of "reputation" that is not factually verifiable is probably hearsay.
---
Dum de dum.