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The Dark Side of "Me Media"

Posted by JonKatz on Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:05 AM
from the -the-Balkanization-of-ideas- dept.
Collaborative filtering and comment programs are all the rage these days on the Net, a symbol of empowerment, choice, freedom, self-policing, even protection. Thanks to automated software, and to addictively-gamelike moderation systems, media are becoming increasingly personalized: "me media." But as usual with things technological, people are sometimes drawn to neat stuff without spending much time mulling the consequences. republic.com, an important new book by Constitutional scholar Cass Sunstein argues that there is such a thing as a citizen -- and that filtering programs may undermine citizenship and a democratic culture. According to Sunstein, software is helping us talk only to ourselves. This will be heresy to some, but he's got a point. (Read more).

Most people online cherish and support the freedom to control their information environment, to evaluate sources of information, to block spam and obnoxious intrusions. Reader moderation (and even higher-order filtering systems) represent the first meaningful efforts to control the epidemic hostility, spamming and chaos that overwhelm public spaces online. This self-policing in media is a radical and powerful idea -- but it isn't that simple. It also permits people to eliminate opposing points of view, promoting a new kind of fragmentation.

Those who moderate comments on Slashdot, Kuro5shin and other community-based weblogs may downgrade content they don't find worthwhile in a genuine effort to express their thoughts as readers and participants -- a freedom no newspaper reader or television viewer has. One person's new freedom is another's' censorship, though. Congress has required, for instance, that schools and libraries who want to take advantage of lucrative e-Rate funding for their networking projects employ content-filtering software. The same basic mechanism (content is chosen before it reaches the viewer), but with very different motivations. As various methods and reasons for content filtering spread, they bring with them some dark clouds.

In republic.com, University of Chicago law professor Cass Sunstein argues that through its filtering and moderating systems, the Internet may be Balkanizing speech and thought, and thus weakening democracy, by eliminating the public spaces that traditionally offered common ground. Sunstein asserts that the age of mass media is ending, that radically de-centralized and intensely individualistic forms of information are not only emerging but becoming dominant. But he believes that certain elements remain essential for a well-functioning system of free expression, and that filtering and moderation software may endanger them.

People living in democracies, Sunstein maintains, should be exposed to ideas they might not have chosen themselves. Unplanned, spontaneous, unanticipated encounters are central, though they "often involve topics and points of view that people have not sought out and perhaps find quite irritating." They are important, nonetheless, he says, partly because they protect against fragmentation and extremism, a predictable outcome when like-minded people communicate only with one another."

Sunstein also cites the impact of collaborative filtering programs like those used by Amazon and other sites which collect information on past use and preferences, and allow people to pre-select from a menu of subjects and books they are likely to like or agree with. Clearly this is a customer service, but it's also a way of filtering out ideas and subjects people don't want to hear. Browsers in a store are nearly guaranteed to come across unanticipated or new ideas. The users of collaborative filtering systems will see far fewer.

Sunstein believes that citizens should have a range of common experiences. Without them, any heterogeneous society will have a much tougher time addressing social problems. People may even find it hard to understand one another. "Common experiences, emphatically including the common experiences made possible by the media, provide a form of social glue," he notes.

Sunstein's imagined -- but very plausible -- world of innumerable, diverse editions of the "the Daily Me" is the furthest thing from a utopian dream; it will, he claims, create serious problems. Sunstein offers several possibilities for reform. He suggests "must-carry" rules in the form of links imposed on the most popular websites, designed to produce exposure to substantive questions. He even advocates "must-carry" rules, also in the form of links, for even the most highly partisan websites, designed to ensure that viewers learn about opposing views.

These interventions into Net content are provocative, but a bit of a shocker coming from a Constitutional scholar. Should sites really be forced by law to carry view points that are abhorrent to them, to mimic the press's deadly habit of balancing every single point of view with an opposite one, creating eternal arguments and stalemates that turn civic discussions into WWF matches? In a democratic culture, isn't polarization as much a choice as consensus?

Such requirements, he argues, aren't rooted in nostalgia or reactionary love for the past. Nor is Sunstein taking a position for or against technology or its value. He wrote the book, he says, in an effort to explain what makes freedom of expression successful -- a question little considered online, or even in the United States Congress, which routinely enacts censorious, anti-democratic laws in the name of patriotism and morality.

But hardly anyone in high-tech, contemporary America engages in face-to-face, participatory democracy in their town parks and streets. If they do this anywhere, in 2001, they do it online. The Net is the new public space; does that mean it needs those same constitutional protections, and are Netizens obliged to keep at least some of this space open and unfiltered?

Sunstein doesn't fall into the obvious trap of romanticizing the era, blessedly over, when three TV networks controlled much of the news and offered Americans bland, incomplete mirrors of the world. But he has a point when he says that for all their flaws, TV broadcasts had vast audiences and had the quality of a genuinely common experience. One of the central accomplishments of the American Revolution was the crafting a political process that peacefully absorbed different points-of-view. It has worked astonishingly well, longer than almost any previous democratic political system.

In the last 30 years, though, the networks have lost about a third of their audience, or 39 million viewers. The most highly rated show on any current network has fewer viewers than the fifteenth highest-rated show of the 1970's. Sunstein doesn't suggest that all our new choices -- the Net, Web, cable -- are bad. "My only claim is that a common set of frameworks and experiences is valuable for a heterogeneous society, and that a system with limitless options, making for diverse choices, will compromise some important social values. ... if we believe that a set of common experiences promotes active citizenship and mutual self-understanding, we will be concerned by any developments that greatly reduce those experiences."

People who care about the Internet ought to be concerned. The tech nation may be a collection of brilliant, creative, outspoken people, but it defines the notion of being politically disconnected. The legislative system which nominally represents Net users passes laws from the Communications Decency Act to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to the Children's Internet Protection Act that directly impinge upon our freedom of expression. But there is little organized response, or even much awareness.

The truth is that people who increasingly turn to filtering programs (including ready-made portal sites) become accustomed to censoring ideas they think they may not like. But they can't ever really be sure, since they have no idea what they're not seeing, or how the person or ideas they are blocking might have evolved.

Just ask Jeffrey Pollock. When Pollock ran for Congress last year, he posted campaign information and position papers on a campaign web site. Among others things, he declared his support for Federally-mandated use of Net filtering programs to block porn in schools and public libraries. He was amazed to learn that his own site was blocked by CyberPatrol.

If there is a flaw in Sunstein's arguments, it is that the information winnowing he decries has become more and more necessary due to the sheer volume of data beamed at individual users. In a sense, the moderation advocates are correct when they say they are preserving people's freedom to think and make information choices.

The volume of hostility and junk communications coming off the Net and Web is now staggering, itself a threat to a democratic culture. Moderating systems can also identify leaders and spokesmen, and make it easier to find intelligent or responsive comments. They take some power away from the hostile and disruptive. And they have quickly become valued communication tools: "I personally love the moderation and meta moderation system," e-mailed one advocate of this site's tiered approach to moderation, "self-policing while at the same time adding a degree of competition and ego-feeding."

Sunstein offers no meaningful solutions for dealing with flamers, or professional lobbyists who flood people with spam.

His argument also seems to pre-suppose that common spaces won't evolve on the Net without help. But just why not? Wouldn't a democratic model hold that eventually, when enough people want such a space, they will create and participate in it? And if they don't want such a space, isn't that also their choice?

Perhaps these spaces won't be like the old TV networks, but they could conceivably be big and open enough to host the civic functions that streets and parks used to serve. After all, television networks themselves act as a giant filter, as does much of Big Media. They picked a handful of stories -- fires, celebrity gossi$presented them as a picture of the world. They were inadequate and incomplete, and people abandoned them in droves the first chance they got.

"If an individual freely chooses to join a service that moderates or filters some source of information according to criteria that are fully disclosed to the joining individual, even if those criteria are the 'whim of the moderator,' then the viewer has expressed his inalienable right to listen only to what he wants," writes Shawn McMahon (himself a moderator) in an e-mail to me. "Nothing," McMahon adds, "could be more democratic."

He has a strong point. Don't people have the right to choose the information they want?

But that doesn't make Sunstein's questions any less valid, or his book less significant and compelling.


Look for another viewpoint on this book in an upcoming reader-submitted book review.

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  • Re:On the money by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:37AM
  • Re:Huh? by pod (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:52AM
  • David Brin wrote about this... by InThane (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:17AM
  • May I have the envelope, please? by talks_to_birds (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @01:59PM
  • Side-effects by Bilbo (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @01:00PM
  • Completely illogical arguments by MrRobahtsu (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:21AM
  • Mod "What a wacko theory" up please by Squiggle (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:58AM
  • What? by cloudmaster (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:17AM
  • Moderators, what is wrong with you? by Zico (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:54AM
  • Re:But your comment got modded up... by CaptainSuperBoy (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:05AM
  • But your comment got modded up... by CaptainSuperBoy (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:28AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by rde (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:38AM
  • Re:Thesis doesn't make sense... by Moofie (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:41AM
  • Hooray for opinions I agree with! by jet_silver (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:26AM
  • Re:What a wacko theory by topham (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:04AM
  • More Not Less Choice by mperrin (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:47AM
  • Re:Moderation==moron filtre by Tackhead (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:12AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by mass (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:44AM
  • Re:loss of perspective by Stonehand (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:00AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by Stonehand (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:09AM
  • Re:Beats the alternative by Stonehand (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:15AM
  • Re:So what else is new... by Stonehand (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:23AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by Stonehand (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:38AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by decipher_saint (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:20AM
  • But... by Wind_Walker (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:12AM
  • What's an idea? by Meg Thornton (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @04:22PM
  • OT: by CdotZinger (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @03:39AM
  • People have always filtered by soboroff (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:58AM
  • the media by Phoenix1 (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @06:53AM
  • The Truth Is Out There by bill.sheehan (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:36AM
  • Re:But...peer moderation by cworley (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:13AM
  • Huh? by cybercuzco (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:13AM
  • American History by Godai (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:20AM
  • JonKatz is.... by cecil36 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:32AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by philipm (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @09:15AM
  • Re:Democracy means freedom to choose by 1024x768 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:36AM
  • Even the premise of this article is wrong by lamontg (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:09PM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by cleetus (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:42AM
  • Hey now by 8bit (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:01AM
  • Moderate this down... by SpanishInquisition (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:12AM
  • What are we missing? by mdavids (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @02:56PM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by Sudderth (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:09AM
  • JACS... by ave19 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:10AM
  • Two mechanisms, same effect? by eaolson (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:55AM
  • Re:The Dark Side of "Me Media" by Galapas (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:40AM
  • Re:David Brin wrote about this... by SnapShot (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:29AM
  • Re:Eat Your Beets by dstanfor (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:26AM
  • Re:But... by Golias (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:42AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by Scareduck (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:54PM
  • Re:Democracy means freedom to choose by Dan Jagnow (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:46AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by wren337 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:39AM
  • spam? by GlassUser (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:14AM
  • Direct Democracy isn't scalable by Junior J. Junior III (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:42AM
  • Not a good idea by guinsu (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:16AM
  • filtering doesn't work... by Technodummy (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @03:36PM
  • Re:Where was the "Common Ground" in 1776? by Random Utinni (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:24PM
  • Re:Who decides what everybody needs to know? by McChump (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:03AM
  • And now for something completely sarcastic by Darth RadaR (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:38AM
  • Choosing news sources by hardpress (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @02:37PM
  • Same as last week? by NineNine (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:35AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by NineNine (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:56AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by TekkonKinkreet (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:46AM
  • Current press is CENSORship at its finest. by Shivetya (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:02AM
  • The 'moderation = censorship' this is ridiculous by whjwhj (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @11:21AM
  • Six degrees of separation by Martin Spamer (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:26AM
  • ALWAYS read the critics (v Preaching to the Choir) by Interrobang (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:19PM
  • Re:I am polysyllabic by Interrobang (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:01PM
  • A simpler solution by The_Laughing_God (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:51AM
  • Forced feeding? by Shoten (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:36AM
  • nice flame, now read in context this time by fibonacci8 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:06AM
  • Opinions = bad by fibonacci8 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:25AM
  • Re:Democracy working? by DangerousDan666! (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @05:33PM
  • left wing propaganda by hoochie (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:59AM
  • Democracy working? by skwirl42 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:29AM
  • Re:Such thing as a "Citizen"? by Zeinfeld (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @01:05PM
  • The net is more plural, not less by Zeinfeld (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:32AM
  • Re:Such thing as a "Citizen"? by Zeinfeld (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:53AM
  • Oh great, bring that up. by El Camino SS (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:34AM
  • Deny it if you like... by Mister Black (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:57AM
  • Re:American History by markmoss (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:48AM
  • Re:Beats the alternative by markmoss (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:54AM
  • So I guess... by MarchingAnts (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:03AM
  • What hooey by darcee (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:55AM
  • March on Sunstein!! by seven89 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:23AM
  • Pantywaist bravado by Rogerborg (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:23AM
  • And "filtering" is new? by inonit (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:14AM
  • Common Ground? by Tsar cr0bar (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:37AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by wrero (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:56AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by Robert A. Heinlein (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:00PM
  • Example of Amazon by dkwright (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:50AM
  • I like that point at the end by Claric (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:30AM
  • Common Freedom Experience? by jimlintott (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:41AM
  • When you go to a site: by CrackElf (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:55AM
  • What to think? by trifixion (Score:1) Wednesday March 28 2001, @02:27AM
  • Re:Democracy working? by latency (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:35AM
  • Mindless droning is deafening by mamsfan (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:32AM
  • Virtual identities by undecidable (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:55PM
  • Flawed it may be, but still better than before by StarPie (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:02AM
  • but my Katz filter is busted by borg3of27 (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:08AM
  • Both Authors Miss the Boat by Remik (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:09AM
  • Re:spam? by Tye_Informer (Score:1) Tuesday March 27 2001, @01:16PM
  • Well there are some people I don't want to talk to by Zachary Kessin (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:32AM
  • Re:Who decides what everybody needs to know? by Zachary Kessin (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:28AM
  • Re:Thesis doesn't make sense... by GypC (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:49AM
  • You can set your filters low and see it all here by leonbrooks (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @02:35PM
  • Moderators, editors, everything cuts both ways. by crovira (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:30AM
  • The more things change... by sterno (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:39AM
  • Evolution of cultural ideas. by The Evil Dwarf from (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:38PM
  • Your right to speak. . . by Salgak1 (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:31AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by disappear (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:49AM
  • Re:Current press is CENSORship at its finest. by SnowDog_2112 (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:20AM
  • So what else is new... by ConceptJunkie (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:54AM
  • Re:So what else is new... by ConceptJunkie (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:35AM
  • Bollocks by Rupert (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:41AM
  • Re:Yes, but... by Steve B (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @11:28AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by Tackhead (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:22AM
  • Re:Good points, but... by Tackhead (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:30AM
  • Money by tentac1e (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:17AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by mwalker (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:07AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by jheinen (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:30AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by jheinen (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:16AM
  • Censorware IS NOT personalization by Seth Finkelstein (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:09AM
  • Tunnel vision and Darwinism by Broadcatch (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:48AM
  • In an ideal world, maybe by Christianfreak (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:48AM
  • Nostalgia for corporate brainwashing. by loki2eng (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:36AM
  • Moderation was the first? by benenglish (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:59AM
  • Re:Dumbing up. by FTL (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:23AM
  • Me moderated by ckuijjer (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:16AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by Ronin X (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:43AM
  • Re:But...peer moderation by Grab (Score:2) Wednesday March 28 2001, @12:15AM
  • The "Them" Media by YIAAL (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:50AM
  • Where was the "Common Ground" in 1776? by Storm Damage (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:57AM
  • Everyone IS entitled to his opinion by clary (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:09AM
  • Who moderates the moderators? by clary (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:51AM
  • I totally agree by Salsaman (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:18AM
  • Citizen of Logical Space by aminorex (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:35AM
  • Interesting Points by Prof_Dagoski (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:04AM
  • Intellectual Inbreeding by Eloquence (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:41AM
  • Such thing as a "Citizen"? by Ars-Fartsica (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:16AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by ErisDiscord (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:54AM
  • Re:But... by Golias (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:39AM
  • Re:But... by Alien54 (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:16AM
  • Yes, but... by Sodium Attack (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:02AM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by ichimunki (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @02:52PM
  • No, these are VERY different by abe ferlman (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:15AM
  • These people aren't liberals by RandomPeon (Score:2) Wednesday March 28 2001, @01:16PM
  • Beats the alternative by Private Essayist (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:34AM
  • You are right, sir. by perdida (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @03:54PM
  • Re:Moderation=Fascism by Anonymous Slackard (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:44AM
  • Not quite right. by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:37AM
  • Moderation=Fascism by Lover's Arrival, The (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:17AM
  • Filtering by markmoss (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:38AM
  • Re:More Not Less Choice by markmoss (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:01AM
  • Re:Choice is bad?? by cavemanf16 (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @12:18PM
  • JonKatz whining again by snoop_chili_dog (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:25AM
  • Eat Your Beets by journalistguy (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:33AM
  • I am polysyllabic by journalistguy (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:50AM
  • Re:What a wacko theory by mamsfan (Score:2) Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:36AM
  • by BeBoxer (14448) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:33AM (#337499)
    How do things like this even get posted? It's crazy to think that open-minded people like myself would intentionally limit the ideas we are exposed to just because we don't like them. Thank god Slashdot lets me choose which stories make it to my personalized front page. I think it's about time I stopped letting Katz on my Slashdot page so I don't have to see his lame theories and rants anymore.
  • by scruffy (29773) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:06AM (#337500)
    If there is a flaw in Sunstein's arguments, it is that the information winnowing he decries has become more and more necessary due to the sheer volume of data beamed at individual users.

    The real flaw is that Sunstein wants somebody to decide what everybody needs to know, somebody to tell us what to believe. Sorry, the "cure" is worse than the "disease".

    The real problem is our schools, parents, and peers focus on telling us what to believe instead of teaching us how to determine what to believe.

  • by StenD (34260) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:49AM (#337501)
    It wasn't as consumer-driven as the 'net permits it to be, but in the heyday of the newspaper, most major cities had the Democratic paper and the Republican paper, and most people who read newspapers purchased one or the other, not both. With the rise to dominance of television and the decline of newspapers, there was less diversity in viewpoints, but the 'net and cable television has helped to restore the diversity of opinion sources. The 'common experience' apparently being extolled was not the historical legacy of the American Revolution, but was instead an abberant blip in history, and people seeking out viewpoints they agree with is the historical norm. I'm not claiming that this is good, but to argue that this is a new behavior is wrong.
  • by MadAhab (40080) <slasher AT ahab DOT com> on Tuesday March 27 2001, @09:53AM (#337502) Homepage Journal
    What? You are actually claiming that it's MORE fascist, not LESS, to ignore, yet allow, dissenters, crackpots, and jackasses with some stupid agenda, as opposed to PUNISHING them and, essentially, removing their membership in a society?

    Good troll.

    And contgrats for Katz on taking a different tactic; trolling outright. He actually entertains the argument that "should be exposed to ideas they might not have chosen themselves" by consuming mass media from the most solipsistic generation in memory, targeted specifically to their foibles and self-delusions in the most sophisticated pandering yet known.

    There is a real point in saying that you are not informed, no matter how much information you consume, if that information does not include sources in common with society at large. I just can't believe that today's mass media represents the alternative in any real sense; that material goes through a "moderation" process more brutal, arbitrary, and self-limiting than anything else I've seen.

    Yet taking these viewpoints and re-reading the article again, I can't help getting the feeling that Sunstein's views are far more sophisticated than the "Slashdot destroys journalism; death of civil society soon to follow" message that Katz extracts from them.

    Boss of nothin. Big deal.
    Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.

  • Amen Brother (Score:3)

    by wowbagger (69688) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:51AM (#337503) Homepage Journal
    (couldn't resist that bit of irony...)

    I agree with this. The whole "must-carry link" idea is terrible: your right to freedom of speech does not obligate me to listen! If I choose to ignore you, how DARE you try to force your opinion on me!

    In meat space, if someone tries to force me to listen to them, I can walk away, tell them to shut up, even kick them in the crotch if that is what it takes. Online, I can add them to my killfile (which I do sincerely wish the /. crew would add). How dare this person suggest I be FORCED not to do this!

    There is a big difference between /. style moderation (there are enough divergent opinions among the moderators that any well expressed view will likely be moderated up) and the "groupthink" this article fears. Yes, I know there are certain alledged groupthinks here on /., but consider: how often do Pro-Windows, Pro-BSD, Pro-Mac views show up and get moderated up, in defiance to the alleged Linux groupthink. How often to pro-gun views get moderated up (or anti-gun). For a site that is allegedly "groupthink" run, a surprising diversity of opinions grace these pages...
  • Re:Dumbing up. (Score:3)

    by jheinen (82399) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @10:59AM (#337504) Homepage
    I agree that the 'net is a great place to find detailed information on certain subjects, and far outstrips the mass media's ability to deliver that kind of "nuts and bolts" type of info. But in that case we are dealing in the realm of hard facts. It is relatively easy to determine the "truth" of such information, because it deals with empirical data.

    My concern, and what I think the article was getting at, was the more nebulous "news" type of information, where it is difficult to get facts, and you must rely on the information provided by the "actors" themselves. "Me media" simply doesn't have the capability to investigate and filter this kind of information, because Bob down the block does not have the ability to call up Joe Congressman and ask about his recent activities at the Bada-Bing! club. News organizations developed precisely in order to discover and disseminate this kind of information. I don't really see any way that "me media" can ever make serious inroads into this network, because it is simply impossible for the sources of information (congresspersons, business executives, police, etc.) to maintain a relationship with every wanna-be alternative journalist out there. It is for this reason that "me media" sites will continue to offer regurgitated mainstream news information, and the public at large will still be afforded the opportunity to hear mainstream information, and thereby be cemented by the "social glue" of collective experience.

    There will remain an important role for the non-traditional journalist however, in that he will be reponsible for paying close attention to the performance of the mainstream outlets in order to make sure that coverage does not become biased. The non-traditional journalist can "raise the red flag" as it were, when MSNBC appears to bias their coverage in favor of the their corporate owners, or CNN starts leaning too much in favor of George W. As aggregation points for mainstream news, such sites can serve as the checks and balances against the various sources of coverage, allowing the consumer to compare the various mainstream stories to try and identify what's really going on.

    -Vercingetorix

  • This is news? (Score:3)

    by supabeast! (84658) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:26AM (#337505)
    People have always used media to escape reality. That's the point. This is why video/role playing games have always been bad for "geeks," providing an escape from the reality that they fear to a false one that they can feel safe in.

    It goes back farther than that though. Remember your mother yelling at you to stop watching TV and do your homework? Same concept. Stop shirking important stuff just to be a zombie.

    The book Katz speaks of is just the work of someone stating the obvious. Of course, Katz being the genius that he is, needs the obvious pointed out, and assumes that others do, too.
  • by ReadbackMonkey (92198) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:26AM (#337506)
    The moderation system allows me to ignore people that I might not agree with (read at 2), or to try to read every opinion posted (read at 1). This system is only censorship if there is no choice for me to read at the lower level, I quite often don't agree with moderation, hence I read at -1, but the bottom line is it is my choice just as it is in life.

    If I'm watching T.V. and something comes on that I don't want to watch, I change the channel. It's a simply as that. This moderation system isn't anything new, it's a simple evolution from traditional media forms. Freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to listen to you, it just means you get to say whatever you want.
  • Dumbing up. (Score:3)

    by FTL (112112) <slashdot AT neil DOT fraser DOT name> on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:28AM (#337507) Homepage
    > They are important, nonetheless, he says,
    > partly because they protect against fragmentation
    > and extremism, a predictable outcome when
    > like-minded people communicate only with one another."

    The problem with mass-media is that in order to survive it must have mass-appeal. Consequently, mass-media tends to be extremely shallow in its treatment of issues, since they know that for any story, 80% of the audience aren't interested in it. So they have to keep moving from topic to topic trying to keep their audience from becoming bored.

    With "Me Media" I can point a microscope at one story, and delve far beneath the surface. In doing so I've aquired an understanding about a particular topic, not just been exposed to a dozen one-liners that will all be forgotten the next day.

    I'll grant that "Me Media" produces less conformity (whether this is a bad thing or not is a separate discussion). But one cannot deny that mass-media is a lot shallower.
    --

  • by mr_gerbik (122036) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:05AM (#337508)
    Heres an idea - Anarchy Day on Slashdot

    All account holders get unlimited moderation points for one day. Articles have no score limit. You can only mod each post once. Sounds like fun to me.

    I have no idea what this would possibly accomplish or signify, but I'm sure Katz could come up with some bullshit theory about how this experiment is related to Columbine, mass media tyranny and his movie review of the week.

    -gerbik
  • by plover (150551) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:07AM (#337509) Homepage Journal
    What about NoCeMs? The idea where you trust only specific moderators, who you select as having viewpoints that "filter" the news as per your tastes?

    You may decry moderation as a bad thing, but I stopped having time for Frist p0sts a long time ago. Yes, moderators can and definitely do abuse their power, especially so around here where moderation happens anonymously. Do I care? Not enough to give up using moderation. I simply don't have time to listen to everyone's drivel, and I truly don't care about the troll-of-the-week. For me, missing the occasional post that the chri$tian fscking coalition or the clam$ mod down to -1 still wasn't worth my time to hunt down, because, frankly, very little of what happens around here is really "stuff that matters."

    Knowing how moderation works at least lets me recognize the dangers inherent to moderation. I'd still love to see NoCeMs implemented for moderation so I could filter out some of the idiot moderators who think goat-abuse is worth my time.

    John

  • by _|()|\| (159991) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @08:29AM (#337510)
    His point ... seems to be that all these choices are bad for us.

    I'm a web junkie, and I've given the matter some thought. My primary sources of information are USENET and the web. Of course, I only keep up with a few out of the thousands of newsgroups. Likewise, I follow a few quite specialized web sites, like Slashdot. When the focus is so narrow, it's easy to lose perspective, especially when egoboo like Slashdot kharma is involved.

    Have you ever gotten hot under the collar after an anonymous coward's flame? Why? If "All you hot Natalie Portman grits are belong to us!" makes any sense to you, you probably don't get out enough.

    I'm convinced that there's a danger in always agreeing with what you read. I read a Mother Hubbard at the gym the other night. It had an article pointing out the irony of a Republican senator (I forget his name) who helped pass mandatory minimum sentences for drug convictions, then helped his son avoid such a sentence. Right on, stick it to the hypocrite! Then again, I feel a little insulted by Mother Hubbard's obvious agenda.

    The world would be a better place if conservatives read Mother Hubbard and liberals read the Wall Street Journal, or something like that.

  • by Darth RadaR (221648) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:36AM (#337511) Journal
    The moderation system developed here on Slashdot is a first,

    Nah. Moderation has been used for years on alt.sysadmin.recovery. I pity the fool that does a "all your base are belong to us" over there. :)

    IMHO, moderation != censorship. Moderation is just a real nice way of cutting through some of the line-noise. You have the right to sat what you want, and I have the right to say you've got a good point or you're simply talking sh*t.

  • by unformed (225214) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:23AM (#337512)
    According to Sunstein, software is helping us talk only to ourselves.

    Maybe so, but it has its advantages too. If it wasn't for the movie players and all the popups I wouldn't have become so close to my hand. And if I hadn't gotten close to my hand, I wouldn't be getting laid.

    See...it all works out in the end :)
  • I disagree. (Score:3)

    by perdida (251676) <thethreatproject&yahoo,com> on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:18AM (#337513) Homepage Journal
    Unfortunately, as I stated in an earlier post, there is no way to prevent the divergence of media, or the Balkanization as you put it, without resorting to even more stentorian methods of control.

    When you walk around in a world of printed media, it is already enclosed in private places and relationships. You walk into an adult book store to pay for the stuff. That is a place where common ground is excluded; the common ground (the street) cannot legally be a place to display the porn.

    On the Internet, there is nothing intrinsically preventing the porn marketer from doing something that, to continue the metaphor of the real life adult shop, would make the windows as light and bright as Macy's, attractive to everyone who wants to see it and obnoxious to those who don't. There should be some kind of filtering software to demarcate a public space which those who want to make a buck will freely violate.

    We support laws for the restriction of smoking advertisements, which use strategic locations and attractive appearances to get attention- just like porn sites. I definitely prefer filtering software, which you can choose to download and use, to laws that would make the entire internet a public space. Even better, a free market to promote competition of filtering software will improve the software far better than a static law will.

    I feel those who wopuld like a wholly unregulated Net, which has no mechanism that protects us neither voluntarily or through law, are unaware of the true content, architecture and behavior of the modern Net. It is no longer a primarily scientific system... just read this [cnn.com] CNN article about how searches can't even touch most of the hidden Internet anymore.

    -perdida

  • by CyberDawg (318613) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:33AM (#337514) Homepage

    There appear to be some very valid points here. I make a point of switching back-and-forth between the most liberal radio station in my area and the most conservative, deliberately exposing myself to both points of view (the middle ground comes from other media). The two points the author appears to have missed are:

    Moderation systems like Slashdot's are radically different from net nanny filtering because users have the opportunity to configure how they apply, not just the filtering criteria. I can choose to ignore moderation entirely, showing all posts, or to set various cutoff points and sorting methods. I enjoy seeing opposing points of view, but appreciate methods for filtering out anonymous cowards and some trolls (good trolling is humorous, insightful, and enjoyable to read).

    Second, the homogenization of news is hardly something new. If I choose to read Windows NT Magazine instead of Linux Journal, I'm not going to read much pro-Linux information, am I? We already have a lot of control over what we see, and the changes brought by the customization of places like My Yahoo or Slashdot are parts of a long-standing trend, not something new and revolutionary.

  • by Moofie (22272) <lee AT ringofsaturn DOT com> on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:27AM (#337515) Homepage
    Any given web site may espouse a certain political or sociological viewpoint, but there are arbitrarily large numbers of web sites. Hell, Slashcode is open source...if you don't like what you find out there, make your own!

    The Internet is about niches. It's not about selling dishwasher detergent and Pepsi (although those companies would disagree), it's about selling imported Japanese giant robot models and European release CDs. Markets that are too small to survive in any geographic region can be profitably addressed by the Internet. The same goes for ideas...the pre-digested pap can be replaced by discussion, collaboration, and exploration. Moreover, the mere fact that there are millions of voices speaking is far preferable to the monoculture popular media we're putting up with now. If all the voices start sounding alike, that's not necessarily bad...consensus does not limit freedom, but hollering one message from one source in everybody's ears 24/7 does.
  • Choice is bad?? (Score:4)

    by q2k (67077) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:15AM (#337516) Homepage
    His point (based on Jon's article, I have not read the book) seesm to be that all these choices are bad for us. 'Common Framework" sounds suspiciously like "Group Think." Its better that we all get the same info - even if its not entirely accurate?? I don't buy it, choice is good, as long as you really have a choice. The problems start when the "choices" are not really that different.
  • I've read this argument many times, and each of the authors harkens back to days of his youth when 'everybody' watched the same TV shows last night, and when you went to school or work the next day you all had something to talk about. Or, you all watched the same news shows, so people had a common reference as a framework for discussion.

    I think that this was a complete, and fortunately short-lived, disaster. I cannot imagine a worse tyranny than that of corporate-media consensus driven into everybody's skull. This existed from the beginning of mass media in the first days of nationwide network radio until the decline of the networks during the nineties. Before network radio, people lived in fairly cloistered environments [you can say Balkanized if you felt like it.] Even the churches were pretty decentralized -- there were common themes and dogma, but without mass communication each church had autonomy.

    I love the Slashdot moderation system. While there are definitely some common themes that get moderated up or down -- causing some bias (biases that agree with mine for the large part) moderation has the intended effect of letting you see well-written or at least well-reasoned points of view. It certainly influences my writing; and I write differently for Slashdot than I do for USENET because of the moderation quality-filter.

    The thing is, that if you want to find divergent viewpoints, you can just talk to other people. I don't know why the author of this book doesn't realize this. Whenever I'm with my friends, we talk about what we've been reading; and I find out wonderful things that I wouldn't find on my own. I'd much rather do this than be forced to skip over links of alternative viewpoints [alternatives selected by whom? on what agenda? under what supervision?]

    The author's vision of mandated consensus is truly insane. The number of viewpoints on any issue of any import is nearly infinite; there is no way that you can force them all to be 'carried' under some 'must carry' rule.

    Finally, a proof that consnesus is impossible is to extend the author's argument just a little further. Why should this glorious mandated consensus just be limited to Americans? If it's good for all (US) Americans to have this consensus, wouldn't it be even better for Canadians to be included too? And Mexicans? Russians? Chinese? Martians? Diversity exists, and it's a powerfully good thing. Command consensus won't work any more than command economies -- the marketplace of ideas is fluid and efficient.

    thad

  • by Chakat (320875) on Tuesday March 27 2001, @07:45AM (#337518) Homepage
    You don't like moderation? Then turn it off. You can always chose to browse at -1 and read all the utter crap that goes on down there. In contrast to most of the major news services, you can chose exactly how you want to filter the content here. Hell, if you want, you could hack up a perl script in an afternoon so that you only read the goatse.cx and ascii art spams.

    Besides, if we ever do get fascistic moderators who deny us the choice of reading the shit, we can go elsewhere. Voting with one's eyeballs and one's wallets are much more powerful than you think.

    Although, you're wring about one important thing. Moderation does have teeth and does punish the irresponsible - you get moderated down far enough and you get banned for a day.

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