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Why Kids Kill

Posted by JonKatz on Fri Apr 23, 1999 10:00 AM
from the hysteria-on-the-net dept.
Nightmarish high school massacres like the one in Littleton are now an almost ritualistic part of American life. And increasingly when they occur, journalists and educators blame new media like the Internet, computer games like Doom or violent movies. Why kids kill this way is an urgent and complicated question. But teenaged crime isn't rising, it's falling. And there's no evidence that the Net or other new media are the reason for massacres.

The images were familiar, yet surreal.

Media reports of books about "Doom," animated clips from the computer game, TV shots of websites with ugly images, ominous reports of heavy metal bands and film clips of "Natural Born Killers."

"What is known," said a CNN correspondent Wednesday night, "is that the members of the Trench Coat Mafia spent a lot of time playing computer games on the Internet." They had become obsessed with online killing, reported another TV reporter. They had delved into militia and hate-group websites, some papers said.

The fallout was, as always, nearly instantaneous.

In Vancouver, Washington, e-mailed Enzo Falzon, high school students were pulled aside as they came through the front door and told they weren't allowed to wear trenchcoats. In a Philadelphia suburb, e-mailed Tim, (who asked that his last name remain anonymous), kids who play Doom were offered counseling. In Maine, e-mailed Vektor, who's 14, his parents made him open his private computer files so they could look through and make sure he wasn't doing anything "anti-social."

By now, this schoolyard nightmare is as ritualistic as it is horrific.

We see televised scenes of kids running and sobbing, of SWAT teams creeping through schools and bloodied bodies carted out - followed by dark reports about hate on the Net, violence on TV and in movies. Everyone seems bewildered, uncomprehending.

Almost always, we are as confused as we are horrified, since young killers take their own lives or offer no coherent explanation, leaving us with questions but not answers. Since there are rarely trials, there is rarely any resolution, any understanding.

In June of l988, writing for Hotwired, I wrote a column called "Why Kids Kill" after Kipland Kinkel of Springfield, Oregon, killed four people, including his parents, and wounded 22 more.

Not much has changed a year later, especially when it comes to knee-jerk, ignorant stereotypes from the media and from educators about kids, the Net, geeks and the violence allegedly inspired by the digital screen culture.

Federal agencies and academics studying this kind of episodic, uniquely American massacre, find little of any, connection between murders and media, digital or otherwise.

Kids being warned and counseled by fearful administrators and teachers ought to know that overall, teenage violence is way down in America, at its lowest levels since the Depression. In supposedly media-saturated, violent urban areas like New York City, Chicago and LA, schoolyard massacres are unknown. Nor has one ever occurred in Canada, even though Canadian kids watch almost the same media as American kids, and use the Net in even greater numbers.

What do we know about these horrible eruptions? Almost all of the killers have been white, teenaged males who are emotionally disturbed. Almost all lived in suburban or rural areas, the children of working or middle-class families. They've been generally described as well-parented.

And in almost single case, nobody really knows why they did what they did. They suffered various forms of social cruelty and exclusion, as so many of their peers also have, and they got their hands on especially lethal weaponry, particularly guns. Almost always, their friends and classmates and teachers are stunned and disbelieving. Some of the shooters have been avid media and computer users. Others weren't.

According to federal statistics, no school shootings occurred in l994; in l997, there were four incidents. In l998, apart from the Springfield killings, an 11-year-old-old boy and his 13-year-old friend were charged with killing four students and a teacher and wounding 10 others in Jonesboro, Arkansas. A high-school senior shot and killed a student in a parking lot in Fayetteville, Tennessee. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania, a 14-year-old boy was accused of killing a teacher and wounding two students and another teacher at an eighth grade graduation. Two days later, a 15-year-old girl was shot in the leg in suburban Houston high-school classroom. In Washington, a 15-year-old boy got off his school bus carrying a gun, then went home and shot himself in the head. Now there is Littleton, Colorado, 1999's first school massacre, with at least fifteen dead.

Although experts, therapists and sociologists have crammed TV talk shows to offer various theories about the contagion of teenage violence, it is clear that no one yet understands why these incidents occur. Sociologists like Elaine Showalter of Princeton have written about media hysterias, contagions transmitted by the speed and power of media imagery in stories about the killings themselves. Some psychologists believe that when disturbed kids see the massive amount of media attention these shootings get, they begin fantasizing about this kind of attention being focused on their own, often unhappy, lives.

Other experts blame the availability of guns. Obviously, the ready availability of lethal weapons is significant in this kind of violence, but crime among teenagers has been plummeting for years now, even as the number of guns in the United States has risen.

And persistent efforts by journalists to link the massacres to hate-sites on the Net or to games like "Doom" and, before that, to "Dungeons & Dragons" don't hold up either. There are no consistent patterns of media behavior to link these killers, no single trait of movie-going, gaming or Net use.

Tens of millions of kids all over the world play computer games. The biggest users of new media recreational technologies are middle-class kids, since they have the money to afford the technology. Yet violence among this group, never very high, again has been plummeting even as online use has mushroomed.

Yet despite the confusion about the cause of these killings, all across America, newspapers and TV stations are warning parents about computer games, suggesting that their sons and daughters might be secretly turning into potential mass murderers online.

This is willful ignorance. There's no mystery about the greatest dangers to children. Every day, writes Don Tapscott in Growing Up Digital, three children in the United States are murdered or die as a result of injuries inflicted by their parents or caretakers. Of the annual three million reported cases of child abuse, 127,000 cases involve child abandonment. Each year, and throughout the 90's, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports only a handful of child abuse cases related to the Internet. Of the 23 cases tracked from March 1996, to March, l997, 10 involved the transfer of pornography, an adult soliciting sexual favors from minors, or sexual contact initiated over the Net. Of the remaining 13 cases, two involved police officers posing as children, and in two others the girls had previous histories as runaways. Nine others involved children over age 16 running away from home, allegedly to meet online acquaintances.

What these statistics indicate, Tapscott says, is that "children are 300,000 times more likely to be abused by their own relatives than by someone they have met over the Internet."

As horrific as massacres like Littleton are, they are also extraordinarily rare. Statistically, children are more likely to have an airplane fall out of the sky and kill them than they are to be shot in school, despite the staggering amount of media coverage.

Sissella Bok of Harvard, whose book Mayhem examined the effects of violence in media, writes that young people's lives are saturated with graphic violence in a way that's different and more dangerous than in previous generations.

"We have movie role models showing violence as fun, and video games where you kill, and get rewarded for killing, for hours and hours." It is, she wrote, a "very combustible mix, enraged young people with access to semiautomatic weapons, exposed to violence as entertainment, violence shown as exciting and thrilling."

There's no question that violent imagery is ubiquitous in screen culture, from gaming to TV. But these comparisons seem facile and unknowing. Gaming is intensely creative, in some contexts - Quake 3, Unreal, Ultima - almost approaching a new art form. The animation is rich and multi-dimensional, and violence is stylized, often presented more as a strategic challenge like chess than anything truly brutal or graphically violent. If the stylization of violence is a problem, it doesn't show up anywhere in crime or violence statistics involving computer users.

If Bok is right, it would. Why would there be a decline in youth violence even as "violent imagery" in the media has indeed increased, along with Web use, cable's share of audience, rap and hip-hop (also supposed to be inducing the young to violence), and movie attendance?

More relevant questions might be: Why are so many of these killers male and middle-class, rather than the poor or the underclass? Why do these assaults occur almost exclusively in rural or suburban areas? Why are these kids able to hide even severe emotional disturbance from the people closest to them?

Perhaps the most shocking thing about massacres like Littleton is that, for all of the massive amounts of coverage brought to bear on them, there really isn't anything approaching a consensus about why they occur. Since educators and authorities don't know what to do, what they tend to do is dumb.

Since the kids they're supposed to be protecting know quite well that wearing trench coats, going online or watching movies isn't dangerous in and of itself, mostly what educators and journalists end up demonstrating to kids is that they're clueless.

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  • Shocking... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:27AM
  • This country by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:41AM
  • Guns: No, It's Not by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:44AM
  • insight in a different direction by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:31AM
  • Great article. But family involvement is crucial by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:04PM
  • A very effective tool. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:22PM
  • Violence in South Africa compared to America by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:49PM
  • Parents. by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:22AM
  • The real reason why they kill by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:59AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 23 1999, @09:25AM (#1919392)
    Why is it that during the eighties the shootings occuring in Inner city schools was ignored, almost expected? Now, that violence is gaining momentem in Suburban communities we have a sudden convergence of media technology on it.

    Teen violence is not caused by games or media or artwork or books. The root of Teen violence is a deep seated need to lash out to defend themselves against what they feel is a personal assault. These kids don't have the self esteem to accept themselves as they are. Instead, they lash out.

    I've lived in the Atlanta area for the last 7 years, and year after year I see good middle and upper middle class kids getting hooked on drugs. Why? Their parents aren't engaged in their lives. They don't take the time to concern themselves with the need kids have to feel bonded to something permanent. They don't give kids the feelings of safety they crave so much.

    The result, we are raising a generation of children who are trying to escape the "prison" they live in. They want to have fun, because mom and dad are boring. Well guess what Mom & Dad, get off your butts and take the kids camping. Spend time with them every day. Take an interest in what they do. Demand their time. They'll get used to it, they'll eventually appreciate the time they get from you. Above all, realize that if you kid delves into drugs or hangs with a bad element, it's YOUR responsibility to do something about it. It's YOUR FAULT if you don't and something untoward happens.

    (This comment was written by a single parent of 5 years.)
  • It's so simple.. (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 23 1999, @09:34AM (#1919393)
    Yes, a gun is just a tool. It is a tool that can be used to kill people. If there were no guns, there would be no shooting deaths.

    Look at car accidents. If we banned cars, no-one would be killed in a car accident.

    The reason that nobody suggests a ban on automobiles, is that they serve a useful purpose. Our society has come in many ways to depend on them, and though there is inherently some level of danger associated with them, society as a whole seems willing to accept that danger in return for the benefits we derive.

    The situation with guns is very different. Society does not gain very much by having guns in all its citizen's hands. Guns are something that we could remove from the posession of private citizens without losing too much (yes, we lose some freedom.. but even preventing wanton murder is curtailing someone's freedom. It's not a black and white issue.. grow up.)

    So the conclusion? Guns kill people. Cars kill people. Airplanes and lawnmowers and knives kill people. Guns we can do without. These other things we cannot without losing a lot. So get rid of guns..
  • RE: Vektor by David Rolfe (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:14AM
  • Canada isn't immune by Madoc (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:40AM
  • KMFDM,doom,and the stupid usa by John Kozan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:45PM
  • DOOM?!? by Mike Hicks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:25AM
  • It happened in the UK by Mike Hicks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:38AM
  • Parents. by Skamille (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:47PM
  • Aren't you doing *exactly* the same thing? by Trepidity (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:23PM
  • Does it really matter? by Trepidity (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:28PM
  • No they didn't by Trepidity (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:20PM
  • myth: "no school shootings in Canada" by Trepidity (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:00AM
  • Some school administrators do get it by Trepidity (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:07AM
  • You are starting to get the idea by Trepidity (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:27PM
  • I think *not* by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:24AM
  • Flamebait by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:26AM
  • Source? by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:29AM
  • Cycle of blame by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:34AM
  • Guns by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:36AM
  • Local Perspective -- And why call them kids? by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:13AM
  • Scapegoats by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:41AM
  • Scapegoats by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:47AM
  • Scapegoats by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:49AM
  • Guns by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:00PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:50PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:58PM
  • Scapegoats by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:12PM
  • Big Differences between 1776 and 1999... by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:40PM
  • Big Differences between 1776 and 1999... by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:52PM
  • No argument there... by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:12PM
  • WTF do you expect? by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:11PM
  • Is everyone in this country stupid? by gavinhall (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:57AM
  • Littleton students are telling us why it happened by gavinhall (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:23AM
  • WTF do you expect? by gavinhall (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:43AM
  • I fear for the internet. by gavinhall (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @12:12PM
  • The Gun Issue is Complicated by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @09:22AM
  • The Gun Issue is Complicated by gavinhall (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @09:35AM
  • Re: I know why kids kill. by gavinhall (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:18AM
  • The trouble with Americans.... by gavinhall (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:23AM
  • Some Reason Why Kids Kill by gavinhall (Score:1) Sunday May 02 1999, @12:40PM
  • WHO DECIDES WHAT'S PRIVATE? by gavinhall (Score:1) Wednesday May 12 1999, @08:51PM
  • The Reason by gavinhall (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:54AM
  • coat clarification by belial (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:38AM
  • Re: The real reason why they kill by jacrawf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:10PM
  • ...or the thoughtlessness by pingouin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:34PM
  • Gee, I missed one by pingouin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:43PM
  • Look past what you're encouraged to see by pingouin (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @12:20AM
  • Sucker! by pingouin (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @03:45AM
  • Gee, you missed one by pingouin (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @10:11PM
  • A few questions. by Simon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:45PM
  • You can't legislate against insanity. by Wansu (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:21AM
  • Aren't you doing *exactly* the same thing? by Brian Knotts (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:13AM
  • Guns Guns and More Guns by Brian Knotts (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:24AM
  • Huh? by Brian Knotts (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:30AM
  • Huh? by Eccles (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:06AM
  • We need to take a stand. by Shanoyu (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:08PM
  • more peace or fewer teens? by extra88 (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:47AM
  • Where were the teachers, other students, etc..?? by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:44AM
  • Not necessarily. by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:04PM
  • Huh? by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:17PM
  • Not necessarily. by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:22PM
  • That DOES happens, but don't ask the liberal media by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:37PM
  • Banning guns is not the answer... by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:07PM
  • Scapegoats by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:19PM
  • How to buy guns illegally by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:25PM
  • Exactly... by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:07PM
  • Some school administrators do get it by Danse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:33PM
  • Banning guns is not the answer... by Danse (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @05:20PM
  • hmm.. by Danse (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @05:38PM
  • Huh? by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:19AM
  • Guns by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:31AM
  • Hey gunlovin' assholes by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:36PM
  • Not passing the buck by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:37PM
  • Big Differences between 1776 and 1999... by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:49PM
  • You MUST be joking. by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:13PM
  • And killing harmless and helpless animals is? by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:49PM
  • And killing harmless and helpless animals is? by demon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:52PM
  • Wow by crayz (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @10:19PM
  • RE: Vektor by sjames (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:31PM
  • Not necessarily. by sjames (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:43PM
  • Guns by Python (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:19PM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Python (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:27PM
  • Sometimes it really is as simple as it looks. by bkosse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:46PM
  • FBI, U.S. Dept of Justice biannual studies... by bkosse (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:07PM
  • The only opinion that matters is Microsoft's by heroine (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:48AM
  • Rage by Frodo (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @04:59AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by snort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:33PM
  • Child Privacy by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:11PM
  • RE: Vektor by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:13PM
  • RE: arguements for parents and media at fault by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:27PM
  • Scapegoats by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:31PM
  • That DOES happens, but don't ask the liberal media by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:36PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:43PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:44PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:45PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:48PM
  • Scapegoats by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:58PM
  • Scapegoats by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:01PM
  • Scapegoats by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:07PM
  • Please, more flamebait. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:30PM
  • Society is not the cause by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:40PM
  • Society is not the cause by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:41PM
  • Much ado about the wrong thing by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:54PM
  • Much ado about the wrong thing by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:02PM
  • Parents. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:05PM
  • Get a dog! Kids != Ken & Barbie by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:06PM
  • Bravo Katz, but Why did not you complete this by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:10PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:14PM
  • I fear for the internet. by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:18PM
  • I'm glad it won't happen... by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:20PM
  • First they blamed it on Manson by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:22PM
  • Or, in other words... by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:38PM
  • "It's not my fault!" by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:41PM
  • Obligatory "McDonalds Coffee" anecdote reponse by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:45PM
  • IF you think DOOM is bad... by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:58PM
  • The Net by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:17PM
  • NOT in NJ -- Rural rage: by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:21PM
  • Why only in "perfect" towns? by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:31PM
  • Media Double Standard by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:37PM
  • you know, white mid-cls males R very hated by jafac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:44PM
  • Porn vs. Violent Media by AxelBoldt (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:59PM
  • crafting our own coffin by Luis Espinal (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:20AM
  • Guns Guns and More Guns by ry4an (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:05AM
  • That DOES happens, but don't ask the liberal media by Matts (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:12PM
  • Read some stats. by Matts (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:33PM
  • Not Guns, Not Drugs, Not TV... by BadlandZ (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:46AM
  • Society is not the cause by BadlandZ (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:08AM
  • Not Guns, Not Drugs, Not TV... by BadlandZ (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:38AM
  • Society is not the cause by BadlandZ (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:54PM
  • It's the thought that counts by RevRa (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:35AM
  • Placing blame by RevRa (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:37AM
  • It's so simple.. by Jason Earl (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:01AM
  • No they didn't by marcus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:46PM
  • Indeed, your illustration is perfect. by marcus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:50PM
  • Different culture, different society by marcus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:00PM
  • You are starting to get the idea by marcus (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:04AM
  • You might try taking a war history class by marcus (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:13AM
  • Placing blame - Bingo! by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:01AM
  • Placing blame - Bingo! by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:46PM
  • Guns by Niac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:33AM
  • Much ado about the wrong thing by EAVY (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:57AM
  • Much ado about the wrong thing by EAVY (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:11AM
  • What makes them different from us? by Frank Sullivan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:25AM
  • RE: Vektor by Vector7 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:35PM
  • OSS for local kid. by suprax (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:39AM
  • "It's not my fault!" by Christopher Cashell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:11PM
  • Obligatory "McDonalds Coffee" anecdote reponse by Christopher Cashell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:22PM
  • "It's not my fault!" by Christopher Cashell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:44PM
  • True, but you completely miss the point by Christopher Cashell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:03PM
  • Blah blah blah. by Christopher Cashell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:04PM
  • by Christopher Cashell (2517) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:43AM (#1919545) Homepage Journal
    The problem with our society today is that no one is willing to take responsibility for their own actions. It's become the accepted thing to shift all blame to something or someone else for anything that we do wrong.

    "I just spilled hot coffee on my lap. But, wait, it's not my fault that I was driving around with hot coffee in my crotch and it spilled, it's the place who sold it to me, because they sold it hot."

    "Well, yes, I went out and laid down in the middle of the street, and for some amazingly unbelievable reason, I didn't realise I was going to get run over by a car. It wasn't my fault, it was because I saw it in a movie."

    "Yes, I went out and shot 10 people, but it wasn't my fault. It was because when I was 6 years old, my daddy looked at me wrong and made me feel uncomfortable. You might even say he sexually abused me. It's his fault."

    "My kid committed suicide, and it's all the fault of that music. My kid was a happy, intelligent, nice boy, and would never do something like this on his own. It's all because of that music he was listening to. That rock music should all be banned."

    "Yeah, I killed some people, but it's because of the TV, movies, and video games that I watch. Sure, 100 million Americans and millions more people around the world are able to watch these same TV shows, movies, and video games for hours and hours more than I have, and they are able to live in society without killing people just fine, but it's not my fault. It was the violent imagery I've been subjected to all my life."

    It's kind of interesting, isn't it? A little bit of a central theme running through there? Instead of people just standing up and saying, "Okay, yes, I screwed up. I'm sorry." They all have to have an excuse, a reason, a childhood event, or an influence that somehow has managed to cause all of their problems, and drive them into doing what they do.

    And along with this basic and simple societal defect, we have the media. The media who is always after the sensational story, and who greatly aids in people's desire to not take responsibility for their actions. Thanks to them, we have schools banning Doom, trench coats, and all kinds of other things.

    This is just stupid. I've worn a large long black duster, very similar to a trench coat, for years now. Does this mean that all of a sudden I'm going to freak and kill a bunch of people? Hell no, it doesn't. You see, it's not the coat, the music, the movies, the TV, or anything else like that that causes these types of things. It's simply the people who do it that are the problem.

    You see, a normal person can play doom, wear trench coats, watch violent TV and movies, and do.....nothing. Because they're normal well adjusted kids who realise that killing people is, um, wrong? The people who do this kind of thing are people with severe emotional and psychological problems. Otherwise, no matter what music, movies, games, or coats they enjoy, they would know better.

    "Man's stupidity is eclipsed only by his ability to deny his own stupidity."
  • Black market guns by substrate (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:52AM
  • Bullshit, Katz... by slothbait (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • Lets play the naming game by BigD42 (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:56AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Svartalf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:26AM
  • I'm glad it won't happen... by Svartalf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:40AM
  • Some people are evil by Aron S-T (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:18PM
  • No I am not an idiot by Aron S-T (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:54PM
  • Why Kids Don't Kill by AcidSt0rm (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:04AM
  • RE: Vektor by planet_hoth (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:05AM
  • RE: Vektor by planet_hoth (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:37AM
  • Scapegoats and blame by dattaway (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:25AM
  • It's so simple.. by dattaway (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:46AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Zemran (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:25AM
  • XEvil rules by CrAlt (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:12PM
  • Prom... by richieb (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:28PM
  • I'm glad it won't happen... by richieb (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:50PM
  • computer games _decrease_ violence... by Chakotay (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:46AM
  • Scapegoats by stripes (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:03PM
  • Less Gun Control not More! by Pablonius (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:47PM
  • Society IS the cause by Harik (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @01:09AM
  • "It's not my fault!" by Harik (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @01:23AM
  • Passing the buck by Harik (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @01:49AM
  • The problem IS GUNS. by srobert (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:09AM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by Dastardly (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:32PM
  • Sure... by ferret (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:23AM
  • Mazes & Monsters.... by ferret (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:41PM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Manuka (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:36AM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Manuka (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:25AM
  • "Media Violence" is a symptom, not a cause. by Keith Russell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:17PM
  • Not necessarily. by zempf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:24AM
  • Not necessarily. by zempf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:01AM
  • Some People's Kids by zempf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:57PM
  • Abandon Individuality, All Ye Who Enter Here by boinger (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:10AM
  • It Happened on Dec 6th 1989 by kabloie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:34PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by kabloie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:25PM
  • The problem IS GUNS. by otis wildflower (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:45AM
  • Not passing the buck by otis wildflower (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:50PM
  • Scapegoats by otis wildflower (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:14PM
  • What about the bombs? by otis wildflower (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:25PM
  • Missing morals ... by darkuncle (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:03AM
  • Guns by Tomster (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:25AM
  • Hmm.. by mcb (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:55PM
  • In another country... by cthonious (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:11AM
  • In another country... by cthonious (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @07:21AM
  • "It's not my fault!" by mazeone (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:50AM
  • You {under,over}estimate Katz by MenTaLguY (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:47AM
  • On target. by CoffeeNowDammit (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:47AM
  • Childhood cruelties by CoffeeNowDammit (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:10PM
  • Here's what's wrong.... by Electric Eye (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:34AM
  • hype hype overreaction and more hype by larien (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:34AM
  • Hanguns ARE NOT just for Killing. by J05H (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:45PM
  • Society is not the cause by vluther (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:29AM
  • I agree, the media is getting ridiculous... by Magus311X (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:57AM
  • Welcome to Hell; Here's Your Homeroom Assignment by ewhac (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @01:05AM
  • Wow, the new preferences are COOL!!!!! by ration8 (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @05:45PM
  • Flamebait by Hackboy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:15AM
  • The problem IS BAD people with GUNS. by Hackboy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:24AM
  • Source? by Hackboy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:32AM
  • Flamebait by Hackboy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:08PM
  • The problem WAS the future by Hackboy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:21PM
  • Gun control arguments are invalid by David Ishee (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:52PM
  • Less Gun Control not More! by Fringe (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:50PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by Apocros (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:01PM
  • Not necessarily. by Apocros (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:11PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by Apocros (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:34PM
  • "protect your kids so much" by Apocros (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:14AM
  • A note to the bun-control advocates by GoblinKing (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:18PM
  • hype hype overreaction and more hype by xinit (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:14PM
  • Hypocrisy by Byteme (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:47AM
  • A view from a former disaffected high schooler by Rand (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:53AM
  • RE: Vektor by InDrUs (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:49PM
  • Solution by jgeo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:13PM
  • Solution by jgeo (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @04:23AM
  • Sue the bastards by craw (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:19PM
  • Asians and domestic crime by Mr. Shadow (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:31AM
  • Re: Respect by pqbon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:01PM
  • Bullshit, Katz... by pqbon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:06PM
  • RE: Amazing! Religion Kills by bstadil (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:02PM
  • In another country... by JohnL (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:55PM
  • Hanguns ARE NOT just for Killing. by maskatron (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:28PM
  • S'long and thanks by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:25AM
  • User Comment by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:28AM
  • The Gun Issue is Complicated by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:33AM
  • P.S. Me and Microsoft by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:36AM
  • You are 100 per cent right by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:41AM
  • Trenchcoats and Parenting by JonKatz (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:31PM
  • confusion by DarkClown (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:33AM
  • RE: Vektor by WORLOK (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:56PM
  • You realy want to start a war with your child ? by AftanGustur (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:34AM
  • Scapegoats by jmm (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:11AM
  • They Were Already Screwed Up by Sentry21 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:07PM
  • DOOM?!? by bbcat (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:05AM
  • Am I a killer? by daskapital (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:01AM
  • Size of School and Nameless Faces--A Solution by Pasty Drone (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:35PM
  • Self-Fulfilling Prophecy by b!X (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:53AM
  • It's so simple! by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:39AM
  • Bravo Katz, but Why did not you complete this by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:55AM
  • Obligatory "McDonalds Coffee" anecdote reponse by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:59AM
  • Weirdos in Japan by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:08PM
  • Not Guns, Not Drugs, Not TV... by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:34PM
  • Should read *ALMOST* no shootings in Canada by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:39PM
  • Gun control at work by Squiggle (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:54PM
  • Flamebait by Squiggle (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:00PM
  • Scapegoats by somebody else (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:20AM
  • Aren't you doing *exactly* the same thing? by hawkfish (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:01PM
  • No, actually, guns are to blame. by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:11PM
  • An armed society is a SCARED society. by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:58PM
  • Good Katz gun control article on Wired by LarsWestergren (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @03:12PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by Logger (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:02PM
  • Guns by Cid Highwind (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:19AM
  • Huh? by Tim Browse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:56PM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Irishman (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:05AM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Irishman (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:44AM
  • Katz's experimenting is over by incubus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:34PM
  • sigh, another Katz basher by Freshman (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:01PM
  • The article (I couldn't think of any better title) by OnyxRaven (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:00PM
  • re: Don't Send Flowers by OnyxRaven (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:08PM
  • Successful two-parent families raise killers? by edhall (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:10PM
  • Scapegoats by Hooptie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:34AM
  • Flamebait by Hooptie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:48PM
  • Scapegoats by Hooptie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:14PM
  • myth: "no school shootings in Canada" by DavidTC (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:39AM
  • Gun control arguments are invalid by Duke of URL (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:53PM
  • Right on... by Dast (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @03:11PM
  • Bravo Katz, but Why did not you complete this by Laxitive (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:00AM
  • Passing the buck (Score:3)

    by Laxitive (10360) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:54AM (#1919673) Journal
    Overall, very nice article katz.. I have to say your social commentary is tenfold better than your analysis of the so-called "linux/geek community"

    I have read a lot of the comments here, and have to say that the biggest thing I see going is a synchronized "passing of the buck" to somebody else.. or at least, rejecting one particular factor.

    The gun enthusiasts say that it wasnt guns which did this. "Guns dont kill people, people kill people," and other inane phrases can be heard. No, it wasnt the guns which "caused" this incident, but then, there was no one thing that "caused" this incident - it was an unfortunate situation caused by a number of circumstances. One of those circumstances was the easy availability of guns. It plays a role, and a significant role at that.. two kids are not going to be able to kill 15 people in a school with a butter knife - at least, it would be a lot harder.

    The "internet pundits" ( who are usually the gun pundits also ), say that it wasnt the internet which did this. The Internet too was a factor. The availability of easy communications channels helped these kids. For me however, the internet is quite a different case from guns because the internet's sole purpose is not to kill - unlike guns.

    The gaming enthusiasts say that it is not the horrific and completely ghastly needless violence and lack of imagination present in modern 3d shooters which caused this incident. The games too played a role. One can argue wether the kids were psychotic because they played doom, or played doom because they were psychotic, but I dont think the cause-effect distinction is very meaningful here. The point is, these games reinforce generally violent tendencies in children. Some times it spills over, most of the time it doesnt.

    People also blame the parents - and it's true that the parents did have a lot to do with it. So did the community. These kids are smart. Reading their website, I find it witty, in a very rabid, violent and extreme manner. They knew what they were doing and they knew what it would accomplish. They didnt give a shit about the people they killed because they beleived that the community around them didnt really give a shit about them. They just didnt care. If they were in heaven (or hell) now, they'd be laughing at our wonderful psychoanalysis of them, saying to each other "we really showed those fucks, didnt we?"

    Anyway - all the above-mentioned items went into this tragedy. If we take the advice of most of the posts here, we'd just leave all of them, and incinerate the parents for what their children did (that's the impression I get anyway). Something should be done for ALL the above-mentioned subjects.. The availability of guns should be dealt with, the prescense of web-sites should be noticed, the ubiquitousness of needlessly violent 3d-shooters should be curbed, parents should be made to care, and the community should be educated.

    Dont pass the buck.

    -Laxative
  • Not necessarily. - Complete BS by greydmiyu (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:23PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by mitheral (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:18AM
  • Yes, we do too have a right to privacy by Erisynne (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:04PM
  • Scapegoats by cloudmaster (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:12AM
  • It's really simple... by DH1 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:09PM
  • Some school administrators do get it by alight (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:54PM
  • Violent Movies/TV shows are a red herring by lar3ry (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:04PM
  • Access to guns? (Or what was the real cause) by Drakino (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:43PM
  • Solution by Drakino (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:48PM
  • Speak for yourself by TrentC (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:35PM
  • It's so simple.. by binarybits (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:02PM
  • Yeah, baby...1K comment.. by Axe (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:27PM
  • Less legislation, not more. by Bricktoad (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:49PM
  • refreshing by Lupus Rufus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:08PM
  • RE: Amazing! by Balance (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:57PM
  • What about FATHERS? by FlyGirl (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:55PM
  • You tell 'em! :) by FlyGirl (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:10PM
  • Guns by Ian Pointer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by ralphclark (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @05:53AM
  • Flamebait by jms (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:15PM
  • RE: Vektor by earthy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:29AM
  • Scapegoats by rdsmith (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:40AM
  • The cycle of blame by nullspace (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:04AM
  • Flamebait by smileyy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:49AM
  • Flamebait by smileyy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:39AM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by geocajun (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:44PM
  • Personal pet peeve.... by Byter (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:20PM
  • I'm glad it worked well for you... by Byter (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @03:15AM
  • A childs Rights by Striker (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:29PM
  • Is privacy a right?-- Yes and No by Striker (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:54PM
  • RE: Vektor by S"Q"K (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:06PM
  • Bravo Katz, but Why did not you complete this by arivanov (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:23AM
  • It's so simple.. by Augusto (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:03AM
  • Media Attention by Saint (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • They're mis-diagnosing the cause by lab rat (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:16AM
  • Y2K- The _real_ cause by lab rat (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:37PM
  • Why only in "perfect" towns? by Nanuk (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:28AM
  • Watching the right-wing spin evolve. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:56PM
  • Oh yeah? :) by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:37PM
  • Caveat by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:42PM
  • Good heavens! by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:46PM
  • This is what annoys me about gun people. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:02PM
  • Fools annoy me. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:06PM
  • Hang on, there. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:56PM
  • Yeah, whatever. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:18PM
  • You. Are. Insane. How's that? :) by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:56PM
  • You are a very unfortunate young man. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:23PM
  • Paranoia by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:26PM
  • And how. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:37PM
  • You're in denial. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @02:50PM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by cjs (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:35AM
  • When Media Attack! by Elf Sternberg (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • There Is No Mystery Here by j h woodyatt (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:59PM
  • Scapegoats by Spectra72 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:34PM
  • Simply incredible by Spectra72 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:43PM
  • Childhood cruelties by jabber (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:07PM
  • by jabber (13196) on Friday April 23 1999, @10:01AM (#1919730) Homepage
    Katz claims that the instance count of violent crime perpetrated by teens is in decline. This may well be the case - though the stats he provides are inadequate to make the point stick.

    What is significant, and contrary to Katz, is that the grandiosity of the crimes is on the upswing, as is the relative count of incidents of that scope. The number of kids going on a shooting rampage is at an all time high - even if gang warfare is in a recession.

    The white-male-middle class is the fulcrum of society, we get no breaks, no quota, no glass ceiling to blame for our shortcomings. We are not discriminated against in ways the media is willing to make known. We are expected to be the hard working providers, to suck it up and deliver on the expectation of having had all the advantages while growing up.

    This is where the problem lies. We are underprivileged and discriminated against as much as the next demographic, but we are branded as sissies if we voice that claim.

    How many intelligent, non-sporting, geeks out there have had the proverbial sand kicked in their face? How many have gone on to become Charles Atlas? How many have gone on to become Charles Manson?

    What the media is missing is not that these kids had a screw loose - it takes that to go berzerk. It isn't that they were desensitized to violence, I'll admit that I am... How many of you are dismayed that there is no UNDO button in your life? I am.

    It is not NOT the fault of the parents, but a teen CAN hide things from a parent - even a pipe bomb and a gun. It's easy. If you can hide pot, you can hide ammo. This is not the issue. It isn't even the issue that parents are too busy to care - for the most part they're not, and it's more than a full time job to be completely aware.

    Your kid needs some space from you - else you raise someone incapable of living their own life. Parental involvement, or lack thereof is not the issue either.

    What is at issue is pure animal reactionism. Colorado was a suicide mission. So was the Kip incident. They just took their sources of pain with them when they died.

    Consider: If you chain up a dog in your back yard, and beat it, and kick it, and underfeed it, and leave it in bad weather, and yell and alienate and hurt - will you dare wonder why it bites?

    These kids were beaten and humiliated for at least their four years of highschool. They were abused by jocks, embarassed by the popular girls and looked down upon by the teachers that were there to help them into the 'real world'. Why was it a gym teacher that was killed? This was the only class they were failing, probably. It takes little thought to run laps, and you have to use the same locker room as the jocks that constantly give you wedgies. If you go to the teacher, you're labeled a panzie.

    They grew up feeling like a minority, but seeing another minority get breaks and special treatment. There isn't a White History month, is there? There isn't a Geeky, Smart Male support group.

    These kids saw the world as inherently unfair, hurtful and not worth living in. Their suicide was not an escape from responsibility or a resignation from the challenge of living - it was a singular assertion of control over their own destiny. They could not change the way the world treated them, so they took away the world's means to hurt them - they took their lives.

    And, in the process of asserting their control over their lives, they chose to stick it to the world, just once. They got back at the people that had hurt them in a way that will forever be remembered. All the people that ignored them, saw through them and dismissed them as white thrash will remember them forever.

    It's little wonder, from this perspective, to blame these kids for turing to neo-Nazism, racism and seclusion. These were the only niches of our demented culture that actually offered these misfits a sense of belonging to a community.

    There's a whole treatise to be written on how a community of hate alters it's members mindset to serve it's own goals, but the point here is this: These kids were driven out of society proper by their inability to fit in. They were at the bottom of the pecking order, and they chose to separate themselves. They chose to associate themselves with a hateful mindset, and who can blame them? The mindset pushed their already well greased resentment buttons, and as life became more hopeless, they chose to go out in a blaze of glory - in their miswired frame of mind at least.

    These kids were the children of our society, we let them down and they bit the hand that should have fed and nurtured them - but failed to do so.
  • It may SEEM simple, but it's NOT by wakebrdr (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @08:47AM
  • On target. by jerodd (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:36AM
  • Scapegoats by Raindog (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:00AM
  • Scapegoats by Raindog (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:35AM
  • I have been kinda waiting for this one by josepha48 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:07AM
  • "ijime-ko" and suicide in Japan by Maciej Stachowiak (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:50AM
  • RE: Vektor by fdicostanzo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:42AM
  • Scapegoats by BeBoxer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:10PM
  • Huh? by BeBoxer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:54PM
  • How to buy guns illegally by BeBoxer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:15PM
  • Airplanes falling out of the sky by baby fishface (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:28AM
  • Source? by baby fishface (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:36AM
  • confusion by baby fishface (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:46AM
  • A Doom co-author sees the bright sides. by ddt (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:55PM
  • RE: Vektor by Jae (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:33AM
  • myth: "no school shootings in Canada" by maphew (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:35AM
  • Guns by Dredd13 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:45PM
  • Banning guns is not the answer. by Dredd13 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:59PM
  • Placing blame by Dredd13 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:05PM
  • KMFDM,doom,and the stupid usa by SalsaDoom (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:26PM
  • KMFDM,doom,and the stupid usa by SalsaDoom (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:28PM
  • It's surreal being so close to the center of this by grappler (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:48PM
  • MAD vs madness by Sloppy (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @01:13PM
  • RE: Vektor by wiz_80 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:44AM
  • by Magneto (15277) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:18AM (#1919755)
    I think the best explanation that I've heard for "why?" this happens came from President Clinton hours after the shooting. These kids build up massive grievances, and no one's reaching them.

    I have to admit, I've been glued to the TV when the news of these killings came on. I knew the kids at my HS who wore trench coats and were on the rifle team. They were the science fiction club. I know it's probably a generalization or a stereotype, but every high school has those kids. Does that mean that they'll snap?

    I've yet to see anyone to take on the bigger problems in this case. How easy was it for these kids to get automatic weapons? How could they build a massive arsenal of guns and bombs with no one (parents, friends, teachers) noticing? Why did their classmates insist on tormenting and teasing them?

    Blaming "society" and our exposure to violence is too easy an answer, and not a good enough one. The U.S. never had this problem when we were involved in Vietnam, in Korea, or World War II.
  • Not necessarily. by takshaka (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:33PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Mindwarp (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:08PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Mindwarp (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:16PM
  • Scapegoats by Mindwarp (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:54PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Mindwarp (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:48AM
  • Not necessarily. by Chris Pimlott (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:03PM
  • Well-Trained? by Chris Pimlott (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:05PM
  • massacres, crashes & media by Atreide (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:59AM
  • Scapegoats by TWR (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:17AM
  • Not Guns, Not Drugs, Not TV... by TWR (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:55AM
  • How to buy guns illegally by TWR (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:00PM
  • DOOM?!? by kijiki (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:23AM
  • Not necessarily. by Maxwell_E (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:52AM
  • RE: Vektor by Lars J (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:21AM
  • My thoughts... by El Guapo (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @12:18PM
  • It's just an indication. by Gottjager (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:03AM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by DefConOne (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:23AM
  • Why is this happening more often lately? by Yohimbe (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:25PM
  • Why by lee (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @05:03PM
  • Why (Score:4)

    by lee (17524) <lee.pyrzqxgl@org> on Friday April 23 1999, @09:57AM (#1919775) Homepage
    High schools are places where different, unathletic kids are marginalized to the point that any opinions they express are dismissed. High school did a very good job of telling me that I did not matter at all. It did not matter that I had wonderful grades. It did not even matter that I did have a small but close group of friends.

    I was humiliated repeatedly by those that were athletic and popular. I am sure each school has different little indignities that are visited upon unpopular kids. In my school, they denied simple dignities to me such as a place to sit and eat my lunch. If I tried to sit down and eat at a table first I was ridiculed and if I did not get up then I was literally pushed onto the floor. It did not matter which table either as there was a shortage at our school. They also set up pranks with me as the butt and used me as a punch line for jokes. They often stole my homework to copy it so that they could get better grades. If I complained to authorities, I was told to work on my social skills and not to be a tattletale. I fought back however I could,which amused them greatly. They made fun of my complete impotence to affect them.

    But I was female. Society punishes males more for being powerless, impotent. As a female, I was trained and pressured to be less out spoken, nicer--especially because I was not pretty. I was told time and again just to take it, not make waves. I was told that I could not afford those qualities because I was already not attractive and unpopular--being outspoken as well was just antagonizing people.

    I don't think that we encourage young white males just to accept impotence. I think we instill in them the American feeling that "you too can be president" and "you can make a difference" and "you matter--speak and be heard." Must be quite a shock for these boys to find out in high school that they have suddenly been marginalized as well. It is quite the double bind for them.

    I don't know what triggers the violence. I do know that when you place people in double bind situations you get irrational behavior.
  • The Japanese? by erhead (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:04AM
  • myth: "no school shootings in Canada" by erhead (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:27AM
  • First they blamed it on Manson by Scudsucker (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:26AM
  • RE: Vektor by psycheus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:07PM
  • Parents. by FJ (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:35AM
  • IF you think DOOM is bad... by Mr. Piccolo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:01AM
  • Re: Tosh! by roboneal (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:52PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by roboneal (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:03AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by roboneal (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:12AM
  • Wrong.... but understood... by blacklambda (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:00AM
  • How contradictory.. now the gun is the scapegoat. by G-Force (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:17PM
  • That DOES happens, but don't ask the liberal media by Victor Danilchenko (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:13PM
  • Identification of the problem itself is important. by LittleStone (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:18AM
  • hell by technoCon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:41AM
  • Scapegoats by BobBoring (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:45AM
  • Not necessarily. by BobBoring (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:05PM
  • Is privacy a right? by robwicks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:18PM
  • Huh? by robwicks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:12PM
  • Not necessarily. by robwicks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:25PM
  • Interesting Statistics by FatSean (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:49AM
  • Not necessarily. by pfaut (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:56AM
  • Compulsary public education by Doomsayer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:48AM
  • Not in this, country... by PinheadX (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:03AM
  • It's so simple.. by Blorgo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:28AM
  • Guns Guns and More Guns by Praxxus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • On target. by Praxxus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:07AM
  • On target. by Praxxus (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:33PM
  • Guns by MISplice (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:38AM
  • Guns by tk421 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:50AM
  • Guns--Keeping the government in check by Ensign Nemo (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @01:40AM
  • I'm glad it won't happen... by Lieux (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:18AM
  • First they blamed it on Manson by Lieux (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:33AM
  • Media by fearx (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:28AM
  • Well said - well spoken... by Puppet Master (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @07:00AM
  • by Black Parrot (19622) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:25AM (#1919811)
    It was pretty scary hearing the chief investigator tell Jim Lehrer that the internet was an "underregulated resource". But maybe not too much cause for worry, because most public officials seem to think that all resources available to the public are underregulated.

    But the biggest threat to the internet probably doesn't come from public prosecutors and the anti-erotica crowd: the biggest threat comes from Linux and MP3. Why? Because these are stepping on the toes of some wealthy and very well entrenched economic special-interest groups, and wouldn't be nearly so big a threat to them without the internet. Furthermore, it's likely that other such innovations will follow. So I expect that said interest groups will soon jump in bed with the hand-wringers and moralizers to form a large, powerful coalition calling for extreme regulation of content.

    If this happens, and if they get their way, the internet will end up becoming just another TV-style medium for force-feeding commercials to the masses; there won't be any allowance for individuals who want to use it for creative/constructive purposes.

    That's my fear, but not it's not a done deal yet. Educate your friends, relatives, and public officials.

  • Guns by Darth Maul (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:27AM
  • First they blamed it on Manson by set (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:43AM
  • it's the media by nion (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:07AM
  • Domain names... by kramer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:53AM
  • D&D by Rko (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:37PM
  • Racist press by Rko (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:43PM
  • You people just don't get it, do you? by Fish Man (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:54AM
  • The trouble with Americans.... by periscope (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @08:42AM
  • Slashdot - news for nerds - NOT!! by periscope (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @08:45AM
  • Guns by vitaflo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:37AM
  • Katz's experimenting is over by Ratface (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:27AM
  • With this comment... by Misha (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @03:19AM
  • by brad.hill (21936) on Friday April 23 1999, @10:36AM (#1919832)
    The fact that these killings only occurr in "perfect" suburban and rural communities shouldn't be one of the mysteries of these killings, it is rather a glaring indicator of why they happen.

    I think the recent killings are different than those prior. I'd especially draw a line between incidents where the kids kill their parents and where they only kill peers. Kids from middle class, "good" families kill their peers in "perfect" suburbia because this environment is a pressure cooker for adolescents.

    In "perfect" suburbia, there is no escape from the fact that you don't fit in. There is no escape from ridicule, abuse, threats and the daily victimization that goes on for years in the lives of many many kids around the country. In a big city there are places to escape, other things to do. In suburbia, you can't even go to a movie or the arcade without all the kids from your school being right there, without all the ridicule being right there. Computers and fantasy games are common passtimes among these kids because it's their only escape.

    These killers came from middle class families in a middle class community where they'd been told all their life that they should be smart, do well in school, be polite and respectful of girls and they'd get ahead. They found themselves doing all the right things, and getting shat on for it. In that position, at that age, without the perspective of adulthood, the whole world begins to feel like a lie and a sham. There's no such thing as "kids stuff" at this age, because there's no big picture yet. School is your life, and in the emotional confusion of adolescence it's easy to lose sight of the light at the end of the tunnel, and just how close that end is.

    These kids weren't noticed as problems because they weren't violent or maladjusted to begin with. They were the daily victims of violent and maladjusted kids, and they were just expected to take it and push on through. Nearly everybody else does, but these kids didn't have the steam valves in their life and they burst under the strain instead.

    Nobody would've noticed, or even been surprised, if these kids had just quietly killed themselves. All the reasons were there. What they decided to do instead was inexcusable, absolutely unforgivable, but sadly understandable. It seems more a testament to the success of our society so far that this doesn't happen on a monthly basis.

    More than anything, what these kids needed was some perspective. They needed somebody to take them aside and tell them that in a year or two they'll be in college. They'll hit puberty, their intelligence will be valued, and high school will seem like a distant dream. The jocks will be pumping gas or in jail, and college girls will want somebody who can help them with calculus. When they get out of school, they'll be making big $$ at a respected job while those other kids are selling shoes. Tell them that, yes, high school sucks, it's a huge sham and a lie, but that your life hasn't even started yet, and these jerks you have to deal with are going to spend the rest of their lives wishing they were back in high school while you leave them in the dirt on the way to new frontiers with experiences and people so vivid and exciting that they make h.s. look like a puppet show.

    We need a Slashdot young professional "You're drinking milk!" outreach program to reach young nerds before they crack.

  • Guns by austad (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:04AM
  • I think *not* by austad (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @12:12PM
  • New Technology can exacerbate problems by cy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:30AM
  • I'd just like to say... by Anonymous Bastard (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @08:33AM
  • I'm glad it won't happen... by rhuff (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:38PM
  • What is the point here? Discussion? by maxume (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:24AM
  • placing blame were it belongs by L.Schierer (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:15PM
  • Absolutely correct by PhunkyP (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @12:30AM
  • Child Privacy by Pepe Rodriguez (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:03AM
  • RE: sub-human? by pest (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:15PM
  • The Reason by litlnemo (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @05:21PM
  • Please, more flamebait. by Webmonger (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:51AM
  • The Net by Rage Maxis (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:25AM
  • The Net by Rage Maxis (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @08:56AM
  • Guns didn't cause this by ChrisGoodwin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:36PM
  • What about the bombs? by ChrisGoodwin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:46PM
  • How can we stop it? by ChrisGoodwin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:59PM
  • GUNS made me do it. by ChrisGoodwin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:24PM
  • Absence of absolutes causes things like this. by RawkettPenguiN (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:44AM
  • by Skynyrd (25155) on Friday April 23 1999, @10:22AM (#1919853) Homepage
    I live next to Springfield, and am employed by the school district where the shooting was last year. Obviously, I'm not speaking for them. I got my fill of the media, and haven't been glued to the current shooting. I've had enough, and don't know the details of Littletown, but I'd like to address a few of your points.

    >> How easy was it for these kids to get
    >> automatic weapons?

    Did they have automatic weapons? Uzi's? M-16's? BAR's? or did they have SEMI-automatics? (some people call them - "self-reloading")

    There is a HUGE difference between an automatic and a semi-automatic weapon. Most new semi-automatic pistols hold 6 to 8 rounds, but the maximum, by law, is 10. In reality, there isn't much capacity difference between new revolvers and new semi-autos. A good shooter can empty and reload a revolver in about the same time as a semi-auto.

    Getting rid of guns in the US will be impossible. Besides that, people who want to kill will find a way to do it. Take away the guns & they'll use pipe bombs or drive through a crowd in mom's Suburban.

    I grew up in an area where everybody was armed, and I was shooting by the time I was 6 and have owned a gun since I was 8. I still shoot, yet I've never aimed a gun at a person or an animal. A gun is just another tool that can be used for good or bad - just like a car, knife, hammer or 2x4.

    In my opinion, is is society problem. There are other countries that are armed - Israel and Switzerland for example. If it isn't an American society problem, why aren't Israeli kids shooting each other? Why aren't Swiss kids getting dad's rifle out of the closet and shooting each other? It's an American problem, not a gun problem.

    Captain Skynyrd

  • you didn't know my friend by Zarniwoop (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @11:38PM
  • Proms (was: Please, more flamebait.) by maw (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:39AM
  • Scapegoats by dgfitch (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:14AM
  • Old technology works pretty well also by Zerth (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:59AM
  • News coverage by Fugazzi (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:21AM
  • hype hype overreaction and more hype by mmclure (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:19AM
  • It could be much worse by Omegalomaniac (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:57AM
  • The Answer by quux26 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:24AM
  • Amok History? Schools since 1996... by SEWilco (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:22AM
  • Slashdot culture violated? by SEWilco (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:47AM
  • RE: Vektor by quasistatic (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:10AM
  • Why do kids have "access" to guns? by Travis McGee (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:10AM
  • Media pandering distorts analysis by alkali (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:31PM
  • RE: Vektor by AlefNull (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:03PM
  • Trenchcoats and Parenting by BeanThere (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:06PM
  • The media and the massacre by reidster (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:59AM
  • nonconformity and goth culture by flymolo (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:00PM
  • Placing blame by Curgoth (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:28PM
  • RE: Vektor by Spatch (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:19AM
  • True, but you completely miss the point by 0xdeadbeef (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:50AM
  • RE: Vektor by Apollyon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:51PM
  • What about the bombs? by Apollyon (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:36PM
  • I wonder... by phee (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:36PM
  • Is privacy a right? by dpf (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:22PM
  • Want to see something that is spooky? by Jimhotep (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:44AM
  • Look past what you're encouraged to see by cjeris (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:56PM
  • RE: arguements for parents and media at fault by blent (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:16AM
  • RE: arguements for parents and media at fault by blent (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:19PM
  • more peace or fewer teens? by scruffy (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:33PM
  • Public Morals by NightParrot (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:28PM
  • But they have 8 cars! by LenE (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:25PM
  • My explanation by SendBot (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @09:37AM
  • NOT in NJ -- Rural rage: by JackDeth (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:10PM
  • Scapegoats by spiffy_guy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:46PM
  • hype hype overreaction and more hype by Kartoffel (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:17AM
  • Simple: Societal Revenge by Xiphoid (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:40AM
  • Placing blame - Bingo! by Beuser (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:37AM
  • middle class white males by Starr (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:24AM
  • that is only part of the truth by Starr (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:42AM
  • The problem WAS the future by Wah (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:44PM
  • The Problem WAS Our Fathers by Wah (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:48PM
  • No, the problem is US by Wah (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @11:31AM
  • Hell yeah! by garver (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:03PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by philburt (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:16AM
  • Bless you by DonkPunch (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:29PM
  • "look... we're LIVE!" by DonkPunch (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:03PM
  • Right to carry laws? by AKAJack (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:49AM
  • Flamebait by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:30PM
  • Society is not the cause by remande (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:31AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by remande (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:56PM
  • Scapegoats by dublin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:38AM
  • Guns Control: They're CRIMINALS, darn it! by dublin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:01PM
  • It's so simple..No, it's not... by dublin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:13PM
  • Yes, as a matter of fact... by dublin (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:26PM
  • 'perspective' by Shad99 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:45PM
  • Domain Names are for sale... by a.out (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:49AM
  • Guns by Znork (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:25AM
  • Guns by Znork (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:49PM
  • From Personal Experience... by HaKn5La5H (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:43AM
  • The trouble with Americans.... by HaKn5La5H (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:56AM
  • RE: Vektor by flesh99 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:12AM
  • A childs Rights by Lissell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:48PM
  • Personal pet peeve.... by Lissell (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:39PM
  • Just a thought by particlepete (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:48PM
  • Why can't we see this type of article more often? by leereyno (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:19AM
  • The only thing simple here is you. by leereyno (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:39AM
  • Gee, I missed one by hankaholic (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @08:26PM
  • It's the thought that counts by hankaholic (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @09:05PM
  • Dungeons and Dragons. by DarkMan (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @10:16AM
  • It's so simple.. by morrigan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:39AM
  • "It's not my fault!"--RIGHT ON. by morrigan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:55AM
  • Placing blame--from the Druge Report by morrigan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:22AM
  • Arms buildup is a pretty big factor by morrigan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:44AM
  • by morrigan (32728) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:30AM (#1919927)
    Misifts are not inherently violent, but misfits with bad parents can be. Where have the parents been during this whole mess? I have heard
    all about how Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold played violent games and watched violent movies, how they were outcasts, how they wore black clothes and trenchcoats--thank goodness they didn't play Dungeons and Dragons, or we'd have to sit through that old song and dance again--but I haven't heard a single thing about their home lives or their families.

    Sure, John Katz can say that these kids were "generally well-parented" but I think the empirical evidence shows otherwise. Unfortunately, I don't think Eric and Dylan are going to be volunteering information about their upbringing anytime soon.

    So, the news never said: are their parents divorced, or still together? Did their mothers and fathers love them? If so, how did they show it? Surely any concerned parent would notice their child storming around in black boots and a trenchcoat, talking about Hitler and playing violent video games all the time, and regardless of what anyone says, it's kind of hard to overlook a bomb-building operation in a kid's bedroom. Did their parents take any action, or just call it a phase that they were going through and ignore them?

    When I was growing up, I wore a lot of black, I studied explosives and bomb-making, I learned how to shoot, and I memorized complete copies of _Jane's Infantry Weapons_ and various army and special forces survival manuals. It was a funky hobby that never really went anywhere. I've worn a black trenchcoat almost every day for ten years, I've played DOOM-like games since they first appeared, and I'm a big fan of John Woo films. To the best of my knowledge, I never went nuts and killed anyone.

    I also graduated at the top of my high school class and graduated with honors from an ivy-league college, and I'm now happily married and managing the support team for a successful tech startup. I give credit for all of my success to my parents, who took an active interest in what I was doing and why, without trying to control my life.

    So what if you play QUAKE a lot and you know how to turn Mr. Clean and Clorox into mustard gas? You shouldn't be asking where these kids found out how to do all of this stuff, or what violent acts sparked their imaginations. You should be asking what motivated them to use their knowledge, and where their parents were when they were planning and preparing.

    Banning trenchcoats and restricting access to "dangerous" knowledge isn't going to solve the problem. Forcing parents to wake up, smell the gunsmoke, and start RAISING THEIR CHILDREN is going to solve the problem.



  • Publicity Stills. by bild (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:04PM
  • Not necessarily. by protogeek (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:52AM
  • Liar by piedrink (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:04PM
  • Liar by piedrink (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:04PM
  • Is privacy a right? by Theran (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:48PM
  • It's so simple.. by SwissPope (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:59PM
  • Flamebait by bgarcia (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:29AM
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by eyepeepackets (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:43AM
  • by eyepeepackets (33477) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:18AM (#1919936) Homepage
    Why would individuals want to do this? Media and authority types will not grok the answer because they are culpable, hence all the scape-goating of the net, games, etc.

    In a society such as ours which is saturated with advertising-related media, the major effect--and end result--will always be homogenization of culture. The end result of homogenization of a culture is intolerance towards those who either aren't or refuse to be homogenized and who are thus cast out of the system or otherwise marginalized. Once marginalized, they are targeted by those who are willingly homogenized: Think peer-pressure as condoned and encouraged by those in authority at various levels of society (those who run schools, businesses, governments, etc.)

    The primary culpret in this tragedy, even if indirectly, is the U.S. media/advertising monstrosity. The secondary culpret is the schools themselves, which are far more oriented towards socialization than towards education, where those who run the schools actively encourage young people to either become homogenized or marginalized. The whole push towards school uniforms for everyone is a push towards homogenization and will result in even more marginalization and acting out by those who don't and won't agree that life is like a Gap commercial.

    In summation: Any school in this country where individuals or groups of individuals are exposed to ridicule, ostracism and other forms of punishment for expressing individuality or difference is a breeding ground for just this type of incident. Specifically, I've gleaned that this school in Colorado is typical in that the jock/cheerleader crowd are the "favorites" (very predictable) and ridicule and harrasement of other groups of students is common.


  • Killers Fused Violent Fantasy, Reality by ChrisBrown (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:08PM
  • Get a dog! Kids != Ken & Barbie by cynicthe (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:49AM
  • NEW PROJECT! (GPL'ed of course) by cynicthe (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:42AM
  • We're so close.. Damn it! by cynicthe (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:31PM
  • I'm a Clinton groupie and I'm OK! Not! by cynicthe (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:19AM
  • There were warning signs ... and no one cared by |DaBuzz| (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:22PM
  • Not passing the buck by Kymermosst (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:34PM
  • Guns a positive factor in the tragedy by Kymermosst (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:22PM
  • Watching the right-wing spin evolve. by Kymermosst (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:15PM
  • Hang on, there. by Kymermosst (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:13PM
  • Pipe bombs by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:37PM
  • Guns Guns and More Guns by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:46PM
  • Bing! by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:50PM
  • *I* HAD ACCESS, I HATED PEOPLE@SCHOOL by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:11PM
  • Damn straight. by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @06:38PM
  • Some observations (Score:3)

    by cje (33931) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:55AM (#1919952) Homepage
    Katz, you doof. :-) You know perfectly well that this is going to turn into yet another thousand-comment debacle with the "authoritarian liberals" at the throats of the "loony gun nuts." Such is the nature of this debate.

    Anyway ..

    Whenever something like this happens, the same group of usual suspects is always lined up and paraded in front of the public for analysis. In this case, this motley crew of usual suspects are

    • lax gun laws and American gun culture
    • rock music ("shock rock" nowadays)
    • violent movies/television programs
    • bloody video games
    • more recently, the Internet

    However, in the absence of any damning, concrete evidences that actually conclusively faults any of the above-listed suspects, it is perhaps useful to step back and look at the problem from a more fundamental viewpoint.

    The crux of the problem is that for whatever reason, people in general (and Americans in particular) are growing less and less tolerant of each other. Respect for and cooperation with others is becoming rarer and rarer. This is not a phenomenon that is observationally limited to kids and high schools. There are signs of this in almost every facet of ordinary, daily life.

    Take, for example, the buzzword de jure: "road rage." A careless driver cuts off another driver, who becomes so enraged that he follows the poor bastard to his home, and proceeds to break his jaw. When did we hear about things like this happening, say, ten years ago? What about five? What is it that is promoting this sort of dangerous mindset in what should be a nonthreatening situation?

    I don't pretend to know the answer to this question, and similarily, I don't pretend to have a solution. However, in my opinion, trying to identify and fix what's wrong with American's high schools is like irradiating only a small portion of a much larger tumor. People are losing their sense of community. Maybe one day we'll know why.
  • RE: Vektor by Pont (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:05PM
  • RE: arguements for parents and media at fault by Pont (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:16PM
  • Watching the right-wing spin evolve. by Rocket Boy (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @07:32PM
  • Guns a positive factor in the tragedy by dstar (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:11AM
  • What can we do? by Eagle-2 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:05PM
  • RE: Vektor by Eric Berg (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:07AM
  • Sometimes it really is as simple as it looks. by pasargadae (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:18PM
  • Society IS the cause by pasargadae (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:51PM
  • Society is not the cause! by pasargadae (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:16AM
  • Your post is Much ado about the wrong thing by pasargadae (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:43AM
  • Society IS the cause by pasargadae (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @04:14AM
  • Much ado about the wrong thing by millia (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:12AM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by quazix (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:19PM
  • Well written, but.... by quazix (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:36PM
  • what about the parents by spav (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:39PM
  • RE: Vektor by Dreamweaver (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:46PM
  • They have it backwards by Hrothgar The Great (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:14PM
  • Am I a killer? by Esslan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:24AM
  • WTF do you expect? by mgreenwood (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @08:20AM
  • WTF do you expect? by mgreenwood (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @09:00PM
  • It's so simple..No, it's not... by Cpt_Kirks (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:56AM
  • The lack of good moral values by cmantunes (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:22AM
  • Scapegoats by SYS2066 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @04:14AM
  • Huh? by RazorCat (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:06AM
  • Huh? by RazorCat (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:47AM
  • RE: Vektor by Woundweavr (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:55PM
  • Violence in our society by skelly (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:27AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Yama (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:02PM
  • Not in this, country... by Yama (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:21PM
  • It happened in the UK by Yama (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:48PM
  • Guns by Yama (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:53PM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by Yama (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:07AM
  • Scapegoats (Score:4)

    by Jamm!n (39007) on Friday April 23 1999, @09:10AM (#1919985)
    Something has to take the blame, because otherwise America would have to face up to some pretty nasty truths: namely that some people are just psychopathic, whether it be genetic or a mental illness, some people have an inbuilt desire to hurt and to kill.

    A failure to face up to these facts leads to the sort of pathetic response that we've seen from Charlton Heston. We'll blame their trenchcoats, we'll blame the internet, we'll blame Marilyn Manson, we'll blame *anything* as long as we don't have to confront the reality that this sort of person will always be around, and if you give them access to guns they will kill, and they'll kill you before you've even reached for your gun.

    The plain truth is that there will always be would-be killers. The only way to reduce the number of people they actually kill is to take away the means of mass slaughter - ie guns. It's so simple. As a friend of mine put it, "if i feel like killing people and i have access to guns, it's easy. if i only have access to bananas, i might still be able to kill someone, but it's a lot more difficult".
    --
    Jamm!n
  • ACCESS TO GUNS by L1zard_K1n6 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:23AM
  • Banning guns is not the answer. by L1zard_K1n6 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:43AM
  • Myth- guns protect you from government by L1zard_K1n6 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:48AM
  • Banning guns is not the answer. by L1zard_K1n6 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:19AM
  • Why Kids Kill by Meghan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:52PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by Meghan (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @05:56PM
  • "ijime-ko" and suicide in Japan by twallace5 (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:31AM
  • Please, more flamebait. by kwerle (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:14AM
  • JonKatz, reason for killings? More than likely! by JarettKobek (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @03:34AM
  • Katz's math is a bit off, methinks... by Talisman (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:33AM
  • Don't Send Flowers by Talisman (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @03:41PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by MarkCC (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:09PM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by MarkCC (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @01:12PM
  • It's a matter of pressure by jsfetzik (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:00AM
  • What kids? More like Terrorists by HarlyQuinn (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @08:34AM
  • 4/20 is not Hitler's Day by HarlyQuinn (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @08:55AM
  • Tosh! by twinpot (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @02:45PM
  • Guns- NZ Police don't even carry guns! by twinpot (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:00PM
  • NZ Gun Control by twinpot (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:23PM
  • middle class killers by John Macdonald (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:36AM
  • It's all a matter of perspective. by Trifthen (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:03AM
  • Is everyone in this country stupid? by AmedeOS (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:22PM
  • Simply incredible by Murphy(c) (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:02PM
  • myth: "no school shootings in Canada" by hawkestein (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:37PM
  • Crime up 30% in Australia by hawkestein (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:47PM
  • Well written, but.... by aharbick (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @04:24PM
  • Killers Fused Violent Fantasy, Reality by parvati (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:39PM
  • The Blame by SONofSPAM (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @08:09PM
  • We were here first! by grindig (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:52PM
  • RE: Vektor by grindig (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:07PM
  • Not patently ludicrous... by grindig (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:15PM
  • Look past what you're encouraged to see by grindig (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:33PM
  • Flamebait by kjd (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:10AM
  • Well-Trained? by kjd (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @12:20AM
  • Gun Control by flashless (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @06:07AM
  • Re:The trouble with Americans.... by flashless (Score:1) Monday May 10 1999, @11:07AM
  • A gun is just a tool, nothing more. by avg_joe (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @08:00AM
  • From Personal Experience... by spoon42 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:35AM
  • From Personal Experience... by spoon42 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @10:40AM
  • The Media Finally Gets It... by spoon42 (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @09:50AM
  • Absence of absolutes causes things like this. by CAIMLAS (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @02:31PM
  • My View by Grendel Drago (Score:2) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:28PM
  • gun access by Masterblaster14 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @06:21PM
  • Society is not the cause by Masterblaster14 (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @06:27PM
  • WTF do you expect? by dicksaucer (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @10:22PM
  • RE: Vektor by houseof5150 (Score:1) Monday April 26 1999, @12:20PM
  • Dicipline by Nathe (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:29AM
  • Teachers almost powerless if parents are in denial by dolfinwriter (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @12:12AM
  • You've got something backwards by dolfinwriter (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @12:20AM
  • Re:WHY DO ADULTS KILL by dolfinwriter (Score:1) Tuesday May 04 1999, @08:51PM
  • Re:WHY DO ADULTS KILL by dolfinwriter (Score:1) Tuesday May 04 1999, @08:59PM
  • Not necessarily. by zantispam (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:02AM
  • Scapegoats by zantispam (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:16AM
  • RE: Vektor by zantispam (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:51AM
  • Huh? by zantispam (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @10:58AM
  • Child Privacy by zantispam (Score:2) Friday April 23 1999, @10:41AM
  • Why by ailie (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @03:01PM
  • Gun laws won't help by Russian (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:20AM
  • Society might yet be to blame... by Fnkmaster (Score:1) Sunday April 25 1999, @12:38AM
  • Parents need to be involved! by Zalini (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @11:01AM
  • Where were their mothers, huh? by denial (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:21PM
  • WHY DO ADULTS KILL by sds (Score:1) Saturday April 24 1999, @11:09PM
  • Parent by Spamman (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @12:56PM
  • Domain names... by Ron Harwood (Score:1) Friday April 23 1999, @09:15AM
  • 435 replies beneath your current threshold.
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