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Journal bethanie's Journal: The Pope's Too Late for Cupcakes. 28

Journal by bethanie
OK, this is really an honest question, mixed with a bit of my own VERY subjective editorializing.

Question: What is up with the Pope having all of his notes burned after his death?

Editorial: That just smacks of having something to hide, to me. Of course, the whole papacy/priesthood thing strikes me as a nasty fraternity-type organization, anyway.

I'm sure that my opinion is flawed, as I speak from the perspective of
  1. a woman, so I distrust pretty much any gender-based exclusionary organization
  2. an American, which leads me to believe that openness and egalitarianism are ideals to strive for
  3. a heathen, because I believe that all organized religions are inherently corrupt

These three aspects of my personhood lead me to be particularly suspicious of this act, this "leave no evidence" behavior.

So what's up with that? Is that typical? Is this following some papal policy or tradition? Why do they do it that way? Is it supposed to be an act of humility? Seems like a big ole CYA, to me!

But I will admit, I am *completely* uniformed in this matter. So that's why I'm asking y'all. 'Cause /. is a hotbed of expertise on matters such as this.

Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, I've got cupcakes in the oven. Just because. Kiddo wanted some orange sprinkles at the grocery, so we're baking something to put them on. Had a nice math lesson, vocab-building exercise, life skills tutorial. All under the heading of "dessert."

Hillary can kiss my ass if she thinks her work is any more important than mine.

This discussion was created by bethanie (675210) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

The Pope's Too Late for Cupcakes. More

The Pope's Too Late for Cupcakes.

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  • Just to keep them from being published most likely. However I like to think that they contain notes about his torrid love affair with Madonna (the rock star not the religious icon).
  • Remember, the Pope can't make a mistake. Therefore, if he had notes that illustrated a thinking process or potentialy heretical ideas, they could be considered canon. Destroying them means there are no surprises for future popes.

    So, yeah, pretty much what you said:)

    That's my guess anyway.
    • ... except that it was reported that the Pope got his ideas for disposal of his body from notes left by a previous pope.

      My guess - there's still a lot of stink from the Banco Ambrosia affair. And a few documents, notes, etc. A billion dollars was a billion reasons to knock off his predecessor.

    • Remember, the Pope can't make a mistake.

      If you repeat a myth often enough, does it become true?

      "Papal infallability" only applies to very narrow, very specific types of pronouncements, not every bloody thing he does.

      • If you repeat a myth often enough, does it become true?

        If you have a thin enough skin, does it hurt to sit down?

        "Papal infallability" only applies to very narrow, very specific types of pronouncements, not every bloody thing he does.

        I'm not a Roman Catholic. My understanding of the concept is obviously limited. I can't help but notice you haven't offered an alternative explanation for the destruction of documents. Neither have you endorsed any of the myriad suggestions by others in Bethanie's journal.
        • I am neither catholic nor defending the pope's call to burn his personal notes. But it irks me when people who haven't bothered to educate themselves about such things just pop off about them. And your counter attack, when mine wasn't intended as an attack, seems pretty thin skinned itself.

          Destroying personal notes, in any case, has nothing to do with infallability. Personally, I think I'd be just as happy if all my horrible poetry and other random scribblings never meant for anyone else were burned on m

          • Red Warrior also replied to me with a 'nuts and bolts' explanation of how to identify an 'infallible' statement.

            I've been in a pissy mood for a few days. Think less of my reply than you probably already do.

        • Short version: The Pope has to actively and specifically state that he is speaking "ex cathedra" (from the chair. of the bishop of Rome.). Lacking such an active and specific declaration, what he says is just a "really good idea that should be accepted lacking really good evidence to the contrary". Ex Cathedera is just "right". Those who dislike it are cordially invited to deal with it. There are actually very few things in the RC church where papal infallibilty has been invoked. Contrary to popular misconc
          • Think about this much?

            Seriously, might be a good addendum to MH42's comments on papal infallibility.
            • At one time, I converted (for really lame values of converted) to Catholicism. I went to a Jesuit college (well before the aforementioned conversion). I have a LOT of respect for the RC church and it's theology. Especially the thouroughness thereof. It is very detailed and very internally consistent. Oh, and they've written it down. In painful detail. Doesn't mean that it's right. But it does make some of the more popular misconceptions grate.
  • It's partially the Papal Infalibility (though that wasn't even defined until the first Vatican Council in 1874!) but it's more a part of the "destroy the old, bring in the new" traditions of times like these- same reason they smash his ring with a silver hammer, same reason they destroy his personal garments.

    Having said that- rest assured that the more important historical documents were NOT destroyed- standard for those (official encyclicals, memos, which cardinal is voting for him in the conclave, etc.)
    • I agree with this take - that it is part of the "destory the old, bring in the new" mentality. I read a little into this recently. I was seeking the answer to whether a pope can resign. I found out they can, but typically don't - and their resignation doesn't even have to be accepted. This is because those rare situations in which a pope did resign led to some very awkward periods for the successor. Power plays and the sentiment that the new pope just isn't doing as good a job will exist anyway. But w
  • an American, which leads me to believe that openness and egalitarianism are ideals to strive for

    Worthy ideals, certainly, but pretty un-American ones I'm afraid, at least judging by the actions of your elected leaders...

    • Shhh!

      All we have left now are our wide screen TVs and the ideals they taught us in Social Studies class. Please don't take either one away.
    • Not speaking in their defense -- but how do you justify the actions of *your* elected leaders?

      Glass houses and all.

      Just 'cause we culturally believe in these things does not mean that the people who get elected represent them. It means that those people who got elected were willing to sacrifice their ideals in order to win the financial backing of people wanting to get favors from those in power.

      Why the public in general elects these people, I cannot fully explain. It has to do with the divisiveness o
      • Not speaking in their defense -- but how do you justify the actions of *your* elected leaders? Glass houses and all.

        I don't :-) Many of the actions of my elected government are pretty disgraceful, no matter which way you look at it. The only difference is that I don't claim sensible ideals as a national trait. I don't claim to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave. I claim to live in a land of the enslaved, home of morons, most of whom don't even realise that their free will is being tak

        • That's cool.

          'Cause I was gonna be all, like, "Don't be comin' into my journal and dissin' the USA!!"

          But now I see you diss everybody. An equal opportunity disser.

          Hey, maybe you're American & you didn't even know it!

          ;-)

          ....Bethanie....
  • First, you have to understand that the Pope is a servent of the Church and the "one" voice of God in matters of faith.

    That said, the Church does rely on the mystical - as such the Pope's "notes," the Ring of the Fisherman, the Papal Seals, and some robes are immediately destroyed upon his death. Some notes and personal items are destroyed later.

    This is done to first, signify the passing of the Pontiff and second, to make sure no MAN may use the Pontiff Authority.
  • As a person with an interest in history as it is, this struck me as very odd as well. Considering if you look at our "secular" government nearly every president now days opens up a presidential library where all of his notes, grocery lists, etc seem to be kept for future generations.

    But I can't imagine the things that may be hiding in the Vatican Archives. Historical accounts of the worlds events, artifacts of who knows what. All kind of Indiana Jones-ish.
  • Well if you distrust and dislike organized religion in general, and RC in particular, then you will probably distrust and dislike what the RC church believes and does....

    While there is a notation in a recordbook somewhere that says I became Catholic once upon a time, and I went to a Jesuit college, I have much respect (which is a different thing from agreement with) for the RC church, it's ideals and practices (with certain notable exceptions in the news these last few years - asshats). That said:

    1. Traditi

    • And once again, in the hotbed, you fail to disappoint!

      I appreciate your points (and everyone else's, but you get special recognition). I literally know next to nothing about RC, except perhaps for its historical significance, so this is all very educational.

      ....Bethanie....
  • I think gmhowell got it just about right. His notes may end up in the Vatican archives, and/or become church law. Destroying his notes prevents anything he may have been thinking of, but wasn't completed, from ending up being church law.

    Of course, it did rub me wrong too, when I heard that news. The incoming pope should have the common sense to know what should and/or shouldn't become church law, and how to handle things. Personal notes would be *VERY* helpful for the replacement.

    I suspect the
    • According to this [newadvent.org] St. Malachy didn't prophesize that there would only be two more popes before the fall of Rome. He just stated that the last pope would be someone named Peter the Roman.

      http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp [catholic-pages.com] for a list of popes.

      I have always been fascinated with this prophecy since I came across it in a book of the mysterious (it was printed in the late 70s/early 80s and had a black cover on it) in my grandfathers bookshelf.

      Unfortunately no one in my family seems to have an


      • It would seem that #112 is Peter of Rome, which would be the last. My latin is very fuzzy, but their translation on #112 seems to be consistant with what it really says. The Finis seems correct.

        #110) De labore Solis
        (of the eclipse of the sun, or from the labour of the sun)
        John Paul II

        #111) Gloria olivæ (Glory of the Olive, or something of that sort)

        #112) In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves in multis tribulationibus: quibus transactis civitas septicollis
  • that sucks.

    bet they were good too.

    They burn his stuff because that's what they were told to do.

    By someone a long time ago. ;)

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