Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
User Journal

Journal StalinsNotDead's Journal: [abortion] my fairly lenghty takeon the subject 23

Journal by StalinsNotDead

I don't usually weigh in on controversial issues like this, but what the Hell. The following was composed mostly stream of thought, so please excuse any rambling, spelling mistakes, or incoherence on my part.

My opinion is not based on religion, or any theory as to if a fetus is human, or when life begins. It's based on my (probably flawed) line of reasoning.

Although I find the practice distasteful, I think abortion should be legal. I don't pretend to know all the details, and have no idea where to draw a line on the time limit as to when the decision can be made.

Following are a few different cases for the handling of abortion, and what I believe potential consequences could be.

Case 1 Abortion Completely Illegal. No abortion is allowed, period:
Where there is a demand, a supply will be provided, regardless of the legality. Look at drugs, and the war against them. We don't need any more Wars on Nouns(TM). They don't seem to work all that well.

There will be an increased amount of induced miscarriages, and black market procedures. The persons performing the procedure may or may not have medical training (I would reckon "back-ally abortioneers" would have minimal training, as a physician would probably be unwilling to risk the consequences of getting caught, loss of license and prison sentence). An increase in police spending to combat this crime is probable. More people will be going into an already overcrowded prison system.

There will be an increase in domestic violence cases. As that is probably how induced miscarriages will be treated under the law, at least in regards to the male participant. A husband or boyfriend who never laid a hand in anger on his female companion will be treated as a wife-beater (and subject to increasingly draconian domestic violence legislation) for participating in an activity that may have been the beatee's idea, and was perpetrated with her consent.

The victims of rape and incest will be required to carry their infant to term, with the potential psychological/physiological ramifications therein. The result (in the case of rape), is an unwanted, possibly unloved (maybe even resented) child, potentially raised by the state. Then you've got the instances of the life of the mother being at risk. I'm inclined to choose one pretty good chance at a life continuing, than two very slim chances of lives continuing.

Case 2 Abortion Partially Illegal. No abortion is allowed, except in the case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother:
If this is put into law, expect the number of wrongful rape accusations to increase by a fair amount. Perhaps it is my dismal opinion of humankind in general, but I have no doubt there are those willing to utterly ruin the life of another person to avoid the inconvenience (or shame, in some cases) of pregnancy and parenthood. After all, there has been at least one case of a woman who was involved in a group intercourse session who later regretted the action, and accused the men of having raped her. The lives of these men were almost completely devastated, save for the fact that the event was video taped, and it was found that her behavior was not indicative of an unwillingness to participate.

Case 3 Abortion Completely Legal:
This is probably where I appear to be an uncaring bastard. Life isn't fair. People are irresponsible. Some people die before they are given a fair chance at life. Sometimes that death is a result of someone else's decision.

Consider this (The example is rather black-and-white, and I realize there are other alternatives to the decisions I present). A woman in college with life-long aspirations to be some kind of professional gets pregnant; whether through irresponsibility, contraceptive malfunction, or some other reason. She has a decision to make. Does she abort her child, to continue her education and further her career? Or does she keep the child, sacrificing her ambitions in the process (with the resulting negative feelings towards the obstacle she's giving birth to)? Granted, hormonal changes and maternal attachment to the child may change her priorities, but for the sake of argument presume it does not.

For the religious (this is not meant to be hostile towards those of faith): An aborted child has had very little chance the royally screw up in the sinning department. God'll probably take that into consideration. And, it is not the place of man to judge the actions of others. God will do that. If it truly is an egregious sin, then those involved will answer for it, in due time.

Other related opinions
Paternal Input: Personally, I would like to be involved in the decision as to whether a child I assisted in creating would be aborted. I also realize that I would not be the one experiencing the physical onus (I have observed that a pregnancy is no cake walk for the father emotionally, though) of carrying and birthing said child, so my role in the decision is only in an advisory role. My advice might be heeded or ignored. If my input is ignored (I would never consent to an abortion, I find it reprehensible), I would initiate whatever processes necessary for the cessation of the relationship, see that process through to completion, and never speak to or of the individual again outside of the realm of fulfilling my obligation to care for the child. Sorry, I can be judgmental and unforgiving, but this would be made clear fairly early in a relationship in which a child might result.

Parental notification & minors: If someone is responsible by law for another individual (as a parent is for a child), the responsible party has every right to all information regarding the ward.* I do not believe children have a right to privacy in these regards. From my perspective, the only reason a child would need an abortion is to avoid the anger, and the resulting punishment, of the parents (whose advice and directives were probably disregarded in the process of becoming impregnated).

*If one wishes to tie the domestic spying and right to privacy into this opinion, my thoughts are as follows: The government should not be responsible for me, it should be responsible to me. In the event the government becomes responsible for me, they can put cameras in my house and put me in a database. The government being responsible for me is an unlikely series of events, as I will live in a pit, under a tarp (if I can afford one), and eat raw opossum before that happens.

This discussion was created by StalinsNotDead (764374) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

[abortion] my fairly lenghty takeon the subject More

[abortion] my fairly lenghty takeon the subject

Comments Filter:
  • In many ways. I am far more concerned with the impact of the government arresting doctors than I am about abortions in general. One of the problems I have with the pro-life movement in general on this issue is that they don't have any alternative proposal for dealing with all the unwanted pregnancies which they are trying to force to term. "Don't have sex," is a great ideal but not realistic. Forcing unwanted babies on mothers (especially in cases of rape or incest) is not going to make our society bett
    • But see these same people see it as a black and white issue (i.e. abortion=murder) and they have absolutely zero room for compromise. Don't get me wrong, I think my beliefs are pretty close to the two of you, but I can see where they are coming from, even if I don't fully agree. I think the root of the whole issue here is not just the issue itself, but the fact that the opposing sides are so recalcitrant when it comes to compromise on this issue; many people just flat out see it as murder. Ironically many o
      • Ironically many of these same people will happily fry a convicted murderer, but that is a topic for another day...

        Or, as I heard from a comedian once, the fishing school of thought- throw 'em back till their big enough.

        I agree that the two sides are far too polarized to really get anything done as a compromise. I don't think abortion is as easily difined as murder, so I'm sitting in the centrist camp with the rest of ya'all. Life just isn't that easy- regardless of how much you'd like it to be.

    • I would imagine that the proposal put forward by many who are against abortion is adoption or trying to alleviate the circumstances that are causing the desire to terminate. That is what Crisis Pregnancy Centers focus on I think. So I don't think it is just, 'no you can't have an abortion, and no we aren't going to help or give options'.
    • "Don't have sex," is a great ideal but not realistic.

      If you fail to get the first child into the crib before 3 months, "Don't have sex" becomes quite easy. I speak from experience- and it's the reason why Christopher is going to pass his third birthday, and likely his fourth and fifth at this rate, without a sibling.
  • But alas it will never convice some people that abortion should be legal. In fact, no argument will ever convince some people that it should be legal (the same goes for some on the other side of the argument as well). I swear even if God came down from above and said, "thou shalt never pass laws abridging the right to choose" that still wouldn't get some people to change their mind. I am not saying people should change their mind, but with this topic pretty much more than any other one people have their sta
    • The thing is, if a person really believes that it is murder of a defensless human being, should they change their mind about allowing it? The two issues are seperate.

      If you walk into a building and someone is hitting toddlers over the head with a bat, do you say 'well i should take a look at this from their perspective.' i doubt it.

      me personally-- i think a fetus is a human so as you say, i'll never feel good about abortion. but i don't think the legal system is the best remedy to the pro
    • I did find it interesting you mentioned that young people shouldn't be able to get an abortion without parental consent.

      That viewpoint comes from the responsibility angle. If I can be sent to jail for neglecting a child or be held responsible for the actions of the child, I firmly believe I have a right to that sort of information, and the responsibility to provide advice and guidance. But that's just from a theoretical "If I was a parent" opinion.

      My gutt feeling is if you are old enough to be having sex yo
      • I think reading Starship Troopers is what kinda got me thinking about the whole responsiblity deal. Not that I think there should be mandatory military service, but it seems like there should be something (an "adult license" maybe :-)). If we had safe 100% effective reversible sterilization (that could be implemented at birth or before puberty hits) that you could only get reversed after passing your "adult license" test, I would be all for that. Normally I am a "stay the hell outta my life you stinkin' gov
        • I have had several foreign friends over the years in countries with mandatory military service. It seems to me that all it serves to do is create (even more than normal) resentment amongst the teenagers. It also causes the last few years of their state-defined childhood to be a frantic quest to escape it. :)

          The "adulthood" question is a catch-22 in my eyes. We say they're old enough to make their own decisions, but then say those decisions are childish. It's the problem with having legality enter into it
      • All they have to do is survive for a period of time, they don't have to kill a buffalo or anything.

        That was awesome. And that's all I have to say about that.
  • would have minimal training

    here is what you need, one wire hanger, and the tools with which to unbend it and form it into a 'scimitar' shape. then you 'insert' the scimitar like any sex toy, push past the hymen (you'll know when you're past it) into the womb, and run it around in a sweeping motion. it's best to use smooth, and fluid sweeps, and to gauge the patients pain threshold, because really you don't need to use force, all you have to do is seperate the fetus from the wall of the womb. which if you'r

  • My opinion is not based on religion, or any theory as to if a fetus is human, or when life begins. It's based on my (probably flawed) line of reasoning.

    The entire abortion debate revolves around the simple question of rights - do fetal humans have them, or not. It is fruitless to discuss permissibility of abortion before coming to a conclusion on the nature fundamental rights, which form foundation of legal protections. Laws that have no basis in some natural right are generally arbitrary and unjust.

    • Actually, there are at least three other issues than that to consider:

      1. Illegal abortions are quite dangerous- FAR more dangerous than either pregnancy or legal abortions- so making it illegal without giving reasonable options, will result in more deaths, not less, because then we'll be losing the mothers as well.

      2. Abortion can be reduced without legislation [statesmanjournal.com], and we should probably try those options (abstinence education, increased access to birth control, and more crisis pregnancy centers) first.

      3.
      • Completely off-topic, but this is my journal so to Hell with it.

        Your sig references hatters and their madness. Do you know where the phrase originates and why hatters were stereotypically mad?
        • Yes I do- and in fact I think perhaps my Asperger's syndrome is linked in.

          A hatter is a guy who made hats- usually out of leather or animal pelts in the late 19th century. The reason they were mad is because they used mercury in the curing process of the pelts- and inhaling vaperous mecury causes heavy metal poisoning.

          More recently, Asperger's syndrome has been linked by some recent studies to mercury poisoning. It's currently unclear which causes what- it may well be that one of the symptoms of Asperge
          • I think perhaps my Asperger's syndrome is linked in.

            No shit? My parents were so very pleased when those fancy electronic thermometers came out, because every chance I'd get, I'd bust it open to play with the liquid silver.

            Then when I was about twelve, I discovered that thermostats had mercury in them, too. I only did that once, though. Thermostats were a bit more expensive, plus the disciplinary measures were enough to ensure that never happened again until I could afford to pay for the thermostat replaceme
            • No shit? My parents were so very pleased when those fancy electronic thermometers came out, because every chance I'd get, I'd bust it open to play with the liquid silver.

              I did the same- but I did it under slightly more controled conditions, as I had my own chemistry hood and I usually did it in an unheated basement on cold days (thus staying below the vaporization temperature of the mecury).

              You reckon childhood exposure could have a residual effect in regards to these symptoms into adulthood?

              It's poss
    • If you believe in "souls", then you either believe that they get assigned at conception or at birth (though a more sophisticated theology may go for first neuron or something). Personally, I view personality as only existing as a response to life's input onto a functioning body and brain. Newborns have never struck me as tremendously endowed in the personality department, and they've at least seen the world and breathed the air on their own. Fetuses are blank slates in comparison. Bah.

      • If you believe in "souls", then you either believe that they get assigned at conception or at birth (though a more sophisticated theology may go for first neuron or something). Personally, I view personality as only existing as a response to life's input onto a functioning body and brain. Newborns have never struck me as tremendously endowed in the personality department, and they've at least seen the world and breathed the air on their own. Fetuses are blank slates in comparison. Bah.

        Different theologi

        • But it's disingenious to conflate the scientific and traditional definitions of 'human life', or for that matter of 'human'. They talk about different things and exist for different purposes. Humanity is not the state of being Homo sapiens. It has never been that.

          Human rights originate out of cognition, self-awareness, and abstract thought. I'd fully support their extension to dolphins and apes, but I have a fundamental problem with the ascription of human characteristics onto embryos.

          We are not DNA any

          • But it's disingenious to conflate the scientific and traditional definitions of 'human life', or for that matter of 'human'. They talk about different things and exist for different purposes. Humanity is not the state of being Homo sapiens. It has never been that.

            Human rights originate out of cognition, self-awareness, and abstract thought.

            We are not DNA any more than your computer is the hardware. Until you get to the logon screen, your computer is a paperweight. Until you get to birth and the severin

  • As long as women don't have UDHR Article 25 economic rights. Until then, EVERY choice for abortion that isn't directly attributable to rape, incest, or a medical problem smacks of being forced by an unfair and unequal economic system or excessive materialism.

    As far as the rest of your reasoning is concerned, you're absolutely right. I don't support abortion, but making it illegal WITHOUT giving women Article 25 rights will do NOTHING to reduce abortion.

Slashdot Top Deals

Debug is human, de-fix divine.

Close