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Comment Re:who wants it? (Score 1) 400

But if it floats your boat, go right ahead. Just don't expect to gather many proselytes on the way, and get used to talking to yourself. I doubt you'll find many others to exchange your experiences with... :-)

Well, definitely not here. And I dare not mention where the lively discussions occur, Slashdot is not known for the good manners of it's commenters.

Comment Re:who wants it? (Score 1) 400

Sure, you may have a point on that particular issue. You are after all talking about a system that was made up from whole cloth by one entity recently, not an older system that grew organically over time at many places, with input from many people.

And yet it *IS* the particular issue you chose to pick on.

And "info" didn't really take off. Why? Because man pages are just "good enough". They're certainly not so bad that it would motivate someone to change platforms to windows (not even "info" it turns out).

This thread is discussing which is easier to learn. "Good enough" is NOT good enough in this context. It may be good enough for a veteran to the tool who simply needs a reference, but it's horrid to Joe Newbie trying to learn *nix for his computer career. You put both of them in front of Joe Newbie, and it might actually trigger that change you think impossible.

And that's why we do not care one iota that MS moves powershell to Unix. And why we likewise don't care much about arguments about its superiority. We've been burned hard enough in the past to have learnt our lesson. And "bling" like slightly better on-line manuals (esp. in the age of Google) doesn't sway us one bit. Not even a little one. So feel free to keep powershells superior documentation. It comes with much too much baggage to be worth it.

And that's the beauty of it. The rest of us don't have to care about your perception of it. You're free to despise it to your hearts content, though your feelings about it are not shared by the entire community. Those who aren't carrying a torch and pitchfork over Microsoft's antics of old can judge the merits of this tool for themselves.

Comment Re:How does it compare? (Score 1) 400

To generalize, the right time to use objects is when you have an object oriented language, so that you have polymorphism, iteration and extendability. I use those a lot. The right tool for the right job.

And you have these in Powershell, even more so since the version 5 (windows) release. I'm not sure if the linux alpha is quite there yet, but if it isn't, it will get there.

Just providing object access does not really add much, except complexity.

And sure, it's good for something. It's just a lot more complicated to do difficult things when constrained by provided objects and expected interaction. Specialized interfaces with limited extendability are not a step forward.

What you seem to view as "constraint" I view as "enabling". Powershell has actually simplified many of the tasks I and others have had to tackle. Perhaps you should try using Powershell on an extended basis and learning about it before you make off the cuff observations about what it is and is not capable of. But then again, you and your quotations know far better then I do right?

Comment Re:How does it compare? (Score 1) 400

And if we all blindly reject something because it was written long ago, what we're doing is not progress, but at best reinvention. There is a reason to use text streams and not objects.

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." -- Henry Spencer

If computers ran on quotes, you'd be quite the genius. Alas, they do not.
A wiser person would understand there is a time to use objects and not text streams. You can love your hammer all you want, but that doesn't make it a very good screwdriver. As the linux faithful love to proclaim: "right tool for the right job". If your job description doesn't line up with powershell, don't use it. But don't think you're doing anyone any good by claiming it's good for nothing because it doesn't behave as demanded by your chosen philosophy.

Comment Re:"Oh, I bashed it all right. I bashed it good." (Score 1) 400

And exactly where do you see this oh so unlikely scenario playing out. What IT support staff are running Linux while everyone else is running Windows, because that would just be dumb and I would expect the manager of that IT department to be canned post haste. In my 20 years in IT I have never seen nor heard of this situation.

Perhaps you should get out more. I know of myself and others that run either linux or MacOS as their local machine, RDP into Windows VMs for management. We also tend to be the guys who get promoted, because we don't restrict ourselves to what's considered "fashionable" to get stuff done. We learn and adapt to new options when they suit our needs. We think outside of the box that you seem to be too busy judging people from within.

Perks of this 'dumb' arrangement include:
---knowing my management tools all exist on the VM, as most of them are incompatible with my workstation. That means replacing my workstation leads to minimal downtime, I just have to install an RDP client. This also means that VM is ready for troubleshooting from remote locations, and I don't have to deal with large desktops due to multi-monitor setups, as one would when remoting to a local workstation.
---knowing that Windows key combinations won't be intercepted by the local OS.
---can test against Mac, Windows, and linux with ease.
---can use tools from all aforementioned OSs with ease.

Comment Re:Wow, will registry/hive on linux follow? (Score 1) 400

little more than just empty bragging by a contingent of cheerleaders who were, before Powershell came on the scene, were sneering at CLIs.

You're off base. Those GUI cheerleaders are still cheering the GUI while looking forward to retirement within the next decade. They're the ones who will never install server core or nano because they can't RDP into it. I've known quite a few of them over my career, and I'm glad I don't have to work with any of them at my current employer.

Those of us who use and promote Powershell are the guys who never stopped using a cmd shell, and still dealt with ugly batch and *shudder* vb scripts until powershell arrived and gave us something worth bragging about. We never sneered at CLIs, we simply wished for something better, and now we can start using that something on linux also.

Comment Re:Wow, will registry/hive on linux follow? (Score 1) 400

At least that's my concern. I've been in meetings with Microsoft product reps who would be very condescending towards non-Microsoft solutions even if those solutions were older, more mature, and more robust, often because the worse GUI or lack of GUI meant that you actually had to know what you were doing. It makes it easier to pander to managers that aren't as technical as they should be. This is just another tool in that toolkit.

Salesmen putting down the competition in an effort to make a sale. In other news, the sky is still blue.

This is the biggest reason to have a network or community of trusted techs/engineers with a variety of disciplines. Instead of "bad because I prefer X" you get actual usable feedback. You ask "I need something that does X" and they respond with probing questions instead of "Y or nothing". Sometimes the obvious old familiar tool with lots of history isn't the right one. Sometimes it is. Never depend on the salesman to determine if it's the right time to rip off the old bandaid.

Comment Re:How does it compare? (Score 1) 400

That sound you heard was the point whoosing right past.

The point isn't possibility of emitting text.

The point is:

"This is the Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface."

This philosophy was first written down in 1978.

And if we all blindly stuck to something because it was written a long time ago, we'd still be offering up children to stone statues on a flaming pedestal. You're free to stick to the old ways to your heart's content. Now that there's a familiar more advanced option available, I'm free to use that. Options are a good thing, even when they don't match up with the philosophy you want to constrain them to. Don't use it. Or do. Either way, others will.

Comment Re:How does it compare? (Score 1) 400

Search-ADAccount -AccountInactive -TimeSpan 30.00:00:00 | where {$_.ObjectClass -eq 'user'} | Disable-ADAccount

To get back to the topic of this discussion - how well do you expect that to run on a Powershell running on a Linux machine?

This is day 2 of the alpha release. Even the most zealous powershell proponent would be an imbecile to expect it to work today. Although if implicit remoting is functional, that might make such a thing possible, though it *is* a workaround. I haven't updated a suitable machine to be able to install it in a linux environment yet.

Comment Re:who wants it? (Score 1) 400

The point of a shell is not to be an all-powerful programming language. The point is to allow to simply (with minimal changes to what you have done manually before) automate low-complexity tasks, with minimal extra complexity, in a hands-on way with high visibility into the steps. Missing the difference between a shell and a programming language is essentially what Powershell embodies - even though there is no doubt that quite a few people on the Linux side have mistaken bash for a programming language.

And *WHY* must they continue to be different or separate? "Because history" isn't a good enough reason. Having one language that's capable of handling simple (shell) and complex (programming) automation tasks isn't a mistake, it's sanity.

And the focus on objects means there is still a lack of good tools to manipulate text.

Ignorance of the tools doesn't mean they don't exist, and 'good' is a subjective term. Based on your logic thus far, I doubt your definition of 'good' will pass with everyone outside of the "MS is evil" club. :P

Plus the Java-style verbosity, leading then to the need for aliases (usually with names that have no connection at all to the long name). Yay for having to learn every command twice, once in long and once in short form.

You don't need to use aliases, you just need to press tab. Autocomplete/intellisense in powershell works not only for the command names, but the parameters and frequently the inputs as well.

Also, complaining about verbosity is sad. It like you're trying to uphold the old greybeard mentality of job security by means of "no-one else knows how to do what I'm doing", or a poor-man's version of closed source by means of unreadable code. Verbosity makes code readable, not just the day you're writing it, but months or years later when you need to fix or update it. In powershell you have the best of both worlds with conciseness through tab-completion AND verbosity. If you compared actual keyboard strokes (instead of characters displayed) between powershell and bash, you might be surprised to find them very comparable.

Comment Re:Heu.. ???? (Score 1) 400

No, it shows that you need to use the right tool for the job.


And yes, I'm aware that you can use debuggers with PS, but then I have to load a debugger - which means yet another tool has to be installed and run - more memory required to figure out what is going wrong.

You claim that loading different tools for different tasks is fine, but draw the line when that tool is a debugger? o.O

Comment Re:who wants it? (Score 1) 400

I can Get-Help -examples to skip directly to syntax examples, and I'm moved on to the next step before I've gotten half-way through a man [page]...

OK, let's try: "man awk" in man browser window (less) type "/examples" and there they are...

Yes, clearly inferior, slower and much more inelegant...

Thank you for making my point, YES, you can /examples IN a "man awk".
Now try that in "man ls" or "man grep" or a "man alias" or "man set". These are bare-bones core linux commands, and the help is inconsistent, and therefore inelegant and yes, frustrating. Yet try any of the core powershell cmdlets with "get-help -examples". CONSISTENCY. Heck, try typing "man for". Here I'll save you: "No manual entry for for". Now powershell: "Get-Help for" returns a list of possible matches. I can "get-help foreach", or get-help "about_for" which goes deeper on the for keyword.

You can pick at powershell for many things, but it's help implementation soundly thrashes "man". It's not even a contest.

Comment Re:What's their angle? (Score 1) 400

But, as we are constantly informed by Powershell advocates, Windows is object oriented, so bash won't work on Windows. And yet, apparently, text-oriented *nix will be administered by Powershell? Methinks maybe Windows object nature has been somewhat oversold to justify why Powershell ended up so different than the most used shell scripting language family ever developed.

I think you're oversimplifying things. Making object oriented constructs output text is much easier then making text oriented constructs output objects. Also, comparing it as "the most used shell scripting language family ever developed" to an alpha product just released today is a bit much. After all, today IS the first time they can run in the same environment. Lets see where things are in 5-10 years. "Different" isn't always a bad thing, and perhaps after some time has passed, you'll be complaining about how Google's new terminal doesn't do things like powershell.

Yes I know that's quite a reach, but if it happens, I'll try to be awake to poke you over it :P

Comment Re:Q and A Time: What can Powershell do... (Score 1) 400

So really it is security theater, with a dose of security through obscurity.

At the end of the day, the only thing that actually protects any environment are the low-level permissions systems. Signing scripts is just a false sense of security at best, and a general pain in the ass otherwise.

That's your view, and you're entitled to it.

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