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Journal AntiFreeze's Journal: Of Perfessor Multigeek, Beer, and Brooklyn 15

Journal by AntiFreeze
Okay, I've got a lot to squeeze into this journal entry, so bear with me.

First off, head over to Perfessor Multigeek's recent journal entry to New York area slashdotters. I figured, "Hell, why not?" and, after getting directions emailed to me, headed over this evening.

In short, a good time was had by all.

In long, tonight was quite interesting. The first thing that was found out, is that the perfessor (did anyone else never notice that Rustin has it spelled "perfessor" as opposed to "professor" until just now?) and myself are alumni of the same high school. Stuyvesant High of New York, New York, to be exact. Stuy is an amazing place, and its alumni run everything, from DC Comics and Mad Magazine (yes, I've met him) to the Home Depot (no, I haven't) to things too numerous to mention (yes and no, in that order). You just can't go anywhere without bumping into a Stuy grad. Not even Tibet.

So, after a few beers (sorry, this journal really isn't about beer, it just made a catchy headline) and about half an hour of waiting, the debate got under way.

The rules were simple. As with high school debate, there were three rounds, a four minute opening statement, a three minute rebuttal, and a two minute closing. Time limits were strictly enforced. The loser of each round (by lesser round of applause) had to take a shot supplied by our bartender. The MC went over all this in a very smooth fashion with nice color commentary. And heckling was encouraged.

The debate, for those of you too lazy to check out Rustin's journal on the subject, was about whether one could be a "native New Yorker" without having been born and raised in New York. Rustin, a born and bred New Yorker like myself, argued the affirmative, while a woman from San Antonio, Texas, argued the negative, that anyone could become a "native New Yorker." What follows is my account of the debate. I'm sure I've changed some points, spruced up the arguments, and moved ideas between sections. For this, I truly apologize.

But before I give you an account of the debate and the winners and losers, I must warn you that the odds were stacked against Rustin. I was the only born and bred New Yorker in the audience (besides the moderator and Rustin), and the rest of the guests - for the most part, while not born and raised in New York - considered themselves New Yorkers too.

To start off the debate, Rustin's opponent spoke of how unfair a question it was, because what is a "native" New Yorker to begin with. She spoke of the melting pot that is New York, and how it is all the immigrants (both domestic and foreign) who give New York its flavor. She spoke of the flare that non-New Yorkers bring to New York, the fashion and culture they bring, and the different ways of life.

While not a wonderful orator, she made a compelling argument which certainly resonated with the bulk of the guests.

Rustin got up and defined what a "native New Yorker" is. It's a frame of mind. It's an attitude. It's not wondering if you're smart or tough, it's wondering if you're smarter than the Nobel laureate living down the block, or tougher than the heroin dealer living next door. It's not getting into your best karate stance when someone threatens you, it's giving them the "my lawyers will eat your lawyers alive if you commense with this action" stare. He spoke of going all around the country (America, not upstate New York) and the things he's seen and experienced. Nothing holds a candle to New York. Non-New Yorkers come here to experience "the City" and the "capitol of the World." Some stay. But can these people become native New Yorkers? Their children certainly can. But can they? No. Because its an attitude fostered by being born and raised in the City. There is _no_ replacement, not even living out the bulk of your life here. It's the babysitter who goes off to perform at the White House, it's the friend down the block who is friends with the rapper 50 Cent because they used to go to school together in Brooklyn. It's knowing the guy who's friends with the CEO of FedEx. Being a native New Yorker is about being born and raised in the City, it's about attitude, and it's about connections. Non-New Yorkers can achieve two of those three, but not the third. Never the third.

Rustin was a terrific orator (he should be, we were both trained at Stuy, after all :P ) who made a wonderfully elaborate, drawn out, and logical case.

But when it came time for applause, there was thunder for his opponent, and dead silence for Rustin -- until I awkwardly cheered for him. People were voting for the side they agreed with, not the person with the better argument.

And the debate continued like this. Rustin was the better debater with the better argument. And, although he got more applause with each round, he lost every one.

In rounds which followed (sorry, I'm getting too tired to go into further detail right now) other insubstantial points were raised and the main points were hammered in. Rustin lost.

But I bet you're sitting here (if you've gotten this far) wondering how I feel about all this bullshit. Well, I feel just that, it's bullshit. I'm all about the shades of grey. There is truth to both arguments. But what fascinates me after tonight, is the attitude both orators had. Neither agreed with the side they had taken, although they both agreed with the arguments they had put forth. Rustin felt it was obvious that non-native New Yorkers could become native New Yorkers. His opponent felt that, after knowing native New Yorkers and non-native New Yorkers, there was a substantial difference. It's a snobby club you can't be granted access to: you're either born in or out.

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Of Perfessor Multigeek, Beer, and Brooklyn More

Of Perfessor Multigeek, Beer, and Brooklyn

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  • ...saying that you have to be born to something is a form of prejudice, nothing more and nothing less.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Rustin's argument sounds exactly like MrsVR's description of a native NY'er, especially 1) "Not wondering if..." and 2) "My lawyers will eat you alive."

    I find it interesting that his opponent is from San Antonio. I lived in Texas during Middle- and High- school, so I know all about the "Texan" nationalism. It's just as bad as the New Yorker, if not worse. It would be interesting to see if that woman could make an argument that "anyone can become a native Texan" in a Dallas bar. I bet she would be too sc

    • While I was in San Antonio Texas, I felt that most of the people I ran into were totally not the "Texan Nationalists" I took them for originally. They were very kind, and it truly surprised me. I could understand why they love their state so much, with all that nice wheather and nature around.

      I must admitt that the cliche Texan does exist, though. At a restaurant near the S.A. river site, I did see exactly one bully who was being a dork to his (beautifull but uninteresting) wife and everything but a goo
      • Note that I said, Dallas, not S.A.

        Actually I could have also said Lubbock, College Station, Armarillo, Waco (to name a few).

        San Antonio and Austin have a lot of "transplant Yankees" or "carpetbaggers" (as I was once called).

        • Hmm I guess even Texas has regional differences among people :)

          As a tourist of course you would not have a clue about the cultural colorpallet walking around you, which is a shame. None of those places specifically raise bells or anything, I guess they're all in texas, and at this point that's as far as my demography goes. Maybe you can tell us what exactly is a carpetbagger ? :)

          • 1. A Northerner who went to the South after the Civil War for political or financial advantage. 2. An outsider, especially a politician, who presumptuously seeks a position or success in a new locality.
            ETYMOLOGY: So called because they carried their belongings in carpetbags.
            from American Heritage [bartleby.com]

            So an example that ties it back to NY- Hilary Clinton is as carpetbagger as you get. Never mind whether I like her or not (given that she's one of the few strong females in politics, I guess I don't have a choic

            • Haha :) As explanation I think this does much more than just elaborate on what a carpetbagger is :) but it is nevertheless appreciated :) Thanks!! :)

              Another peculiarity I can add in my big book 'The American Dreamer, a study' :)

      • My very jewish-sounding, very Queens aunt (named "bernice, fer cryin' out loud) and a friend were literally cornered in a store in Texas by a sheriff once and told to be out of town before sundown. For no reason they could discern beyond their being "different".
        Too bad her former merchant marine, three hundred pound husband wasn't there at the moment.

        Meanwhile, one of her sons (who lived in TX at the time and who they were visiting) ran an ice cream company, got a huge order for a picnic, got there, and f
    • Point MrsVR over to this Journal Entry, I'd be very interested in her opinions of the matter.

      Just keep in mind that the arguments presented were intellectual exercises, nothing more, nothing less.

  • Being a New Yorker is like being a Made man. Unless you are full blooded, Italian roots, you aren't "Made."

    Now, a better debate topic is why would anyone want to become a native New Yorker?

    And what did you guys (New Yorkers) think of SpiderMan? "You mess with Spiderman you mess with New York" or some such drivel.
  • Native New Yorkers were born and bred in "New York State" not "New York City" - I'm a Native New Yorker who has never been to New York City.

    You want to be a native of:
    Manhattan
    Queens
    Brooklyn
    Bronx
    or Staten Island

    Be my guest...
    • "The place so nice, they named it twice" does cause those problems, doesn't it?

      Anyway, we should fix this shortcoming of yours. Come on down. We'll take you out for Chinese, buy you an eggcream, bring you to J&R, Tekserve, and other such places.

      Rustin

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