pudge's Journal: Byron Dorgan vs. Thomas Jefferson

The role of government is to help create a society beneficial to people. People are the priority. Not corporations. Certainly commerce plays a huge role in the betterment of any great society, but any society that forgets that its primary purpose is to serve the people cannot ever be great.

-- Senator Byron Dorgan, How Corporate Greed and Brain-Dead Politics Are Selling Out America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

-- Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence

Let's see. Benefitting people, or securing their rights.

I side with T.J.

not mutually exclusive?

[NeMon'ess]

as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

"a society beneficial to people" presumably makes the people happy.

Is the Declaration of Independence considered to be exhaustive in its listing of the role of government?

Re:

[jdavidb]

Since I believe that government is a creature of the people, and since I believe it is only an agent acting on their behalf, I believe it can only be empowered to do those things which the people themselves can do; it is a means of banding together to do what individuals alone could not accomplish. Since I believe that people possess an inherent right of self-defense, which they may use for defending their lives, liberty, and property, I believe they may delegate that right to government, making it an inst

Re:

[pudge]

"a society beneficial to people" presumably makes the people happy.

But does not necessarily secure their liberties.

Is the Declaration of Independence considered to be exhaustive in its listing of the role of government?

It's not about being exhaustive. It's about the fact that the DOI says the main purpose of government, the reason it exists, is to secure liberties. But Senator Dorgan says it's to benefit the people.

Even more insidious

[jdavidb]

Jefferson asserts that the purpose of government is protecting our rights, and you won't find any more emphatic agreement from me on anything political. Meanwhile, Dorgan asserts that the purpose of society, not government, is benefitting the people. Dorgan is conflating society with government. Society, in fact, is the people that he is talking about benefitting.

Re:

[Iamthefallen]

Or in other words, it's the role of the people to create a society beneficial to them.

It's the role of government to ensure that the people are not denied the ability to do so.

Robot Chicken

[Talinom]

On a lighter note, check out Byron Dorgan [google.com] at about 5:13 into the episode.

(just having a little fun)

[Bill Dog]

Just want to say, Sen. Dorgan has the lowest part in his hair, of anyone, evar [endtheoccupation.org]. Politicians have to have good hair, but his has always bothered me. Maybe Donald Trump [hollandsentinel.com] should run for Congress too.

quite a jump there

[jamie]

or

Looks like you might be jumping to conclusions. Fun, isn't it?

So... have you read his book?

Re:

[pudge]

Jumping to conclusions? He stated what the "role of government" is, and it is something very different from what Thomas Jefferson said it is. My only conclusion is that Senator Byron Dorgan has clearly misstated what the role of government is, and I didn't have to jump to get there, I just had to read his own words.

If you have an alternate view, please share. If not, then ... what?

Re:

[Zeriel]

I don't know that I TOTALLY agree with your conclusions here, but that's solely because I don't know if "create a society beneficial to people" is intended to include rights--from my worldview, securing rights is the main but not necessarily the only benefit to the people that the government should be handling. If, for example, *I* were to use the phrase Senator Dorgan did, I'd fully intend for it to be inclusive of the Declaration of Independence.

I don't know one way or another where Senator Dorgan's prio

Re:

[jamie]

I don't know if "create a society beneficial to people" is intended to include rights

I don't think pudge knows either; he won't say whether he's actually read the book or if he's just going by a quote that looks like it came from the dust jacket. He's happy to jump to a conclusion though :)

Re:

[Zeriel]

What can I say? I enjoy trying to figure out what people are really driving at--and I'm not sure why Pudge seems to be taking an inherently contradictory position here.

Re:

[pudge]

I don't know that I TOTALLY agree with your conclusions here, but that's solely because I don't know if "create a society beneficial to people" is intended to include rights

It doesn't matter if it includes securing liberty, because it also includes many things other than securing liberty. He is, at the very least, putting other "benefits" on the same level of importance as securing liberty. There's no need to jump to a conclusion to know this; he says it quite clearly.

Re:

[Zeriel]

That hardly follows from what he said. Given his statement, you only know that he believes government ought provide a society beneficial to the people. You have no further information from said quote about WHAT those benefits are--he could mean anything from "a literalist interpretation of the Declaration of Independence and nothing else" all the way down to "free puppies for the eating!", but out of context there's exactly zero information to support any interpretation beyond the idea that government sho

Re:

[pudge]

That hardly follows from what he said. Given his statement, you only know that he believes government ought provide a society beneficial to the people. You have no further information from said quote about WHAT those benefits are

False.

Funny how I don't see corporations in the Declaration of Independence, at least not as ersatz persons with rights of their own.

Non sequitur.

Do you or do you not acknowledge that it's entirely possible to "create a society beneficial to the people" by securing their rights, and

Re:

[Zeriel]

Present evidence, then, that Senator Dorgan meant something other than the plain meaning of his words.

Or are you just doing your usual duck and dodge?

All I see is a plain statement that government is intended to benefit the people, not necessarily corporate entities. If *I* were to say such a thing, in those exact words, I would be speaking about returning rights to people that have been abrogated or minimized by pro-corporate policies in government and by the existence of corporate personhood--in other wo

Re:

[pudge]

Present evidence, then, that Senator Dorgan meant something other than the plain meaning of his words.

OK, as long as you are nice about it ...

Or are you just doing your usual duck and dodge?

Oops. Never mind.

All I see is a plain statement that government is intended to benefit the people, not necessarily corporate entities. If *I* were to say such a thing, in those exact words, I would be speaking about returning rights to people ...

But you are not a Senator with a long record of voting to increase taxes, a