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Journal btlzu2's Journal: Spiritual struggles 56

Journal by btlzu2

I'm on a rollercoaster religiously. I was brought up a Christian and I feel like i have many Christian facets incorporated into my mind: guilt, self-doubt, fear. Um, seriously, sorry: love, consideration for others, compassion.

I'm convinced that the guilt, self-doubt, and fear came from the church (i.e. humans) and the good things came from the Bible. Granted, there also seems to be a lot of contradictory information in the Bible too, but the prime motivation in the New Testament, especially the Gospels, seems to be love. That is good.

However I have these fundamental problems:

  • I try to pray and I feel like I'm talking to myself alone.
  • I try to "connect with God" and I don't feel it.
  • I have a hard time taking seriously what people from 2,000 - 4,000 years ago wrote--especially the parting seas, the wine/water, bread/fish stories. My mind is too analytical to accept that at face value.
  • How can God send good people to hell? Are these just threats that people put into the Bible to control others?

I know I've whined about this stuff before. I'm just documenting where I'm at still. I've been reading things and I don't feel like I'm making any progress with the issue. I still, regardless of "design flaws" etc., think there is SOMETHING that created us, or set the chain of events to create us in motion. We didn't just *poof* appear. No way.

This discussion was created by btlzu2 (99039) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Spiritual struggles More

Spiritual struggles

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  • or even came into existance?
  • Em is your god, hit your knees now and start praying to the Almighty Em!

    *anyway*

    I had this similar discussion with my mom a long time ago. She was a faithful Lutheran, and her Pastor, who is probably one of the kindest, and wisest man I've ever known, were talking together in my mom's hospital room. i said something like "I'm just confused and can't say for sure what I believe in."

    The Pastor smiled, as did my mom, and he said "that's okay to be confused, just know that when you are ready, God will be the
  • I'm a heathen, an atheist, and if I did believe, I'd side with the devil, 'cause he's not a petty bastard*.

    Couple things:
    One, forget the Bible as ultimate truth, it was put together by committee in the 2nd-4th centuries AD in order to support organized religion.

    Two, my favorite example of contradiction between canon and religion is 1 Corinthians 11:14-15(If a man have long hair it is a shame unto him) [eskimo.com]

    Three, read the Apocrypha. I particularly like the Gospel of Thomas.

    Four, read other religious texts.
    • Believe in me or be punished! How morally and utterly juvenile.

      What an incomplete statement. At no time has any signifcant Christian, Arabic, or Hebrew church held a statement like that.

      The line goes like this: God created you, so you should act as God wants you to, because He wants you to act good. He punishes you for being bad--and people have been very, very bad.

      Christianity in partiular has a "believe in me and I'll forgive your sins" statement as its primary schism from the hebrews. It's an affi
      • Original sin. We're going to hold against you what your supposed several thousand years removed ancestors did. Both petty and tribal.

        Requirement of belief along with a code of conduct in order to avoid punishment. Is the requirement of belief petty because of how inconsequential it should be? Check.

        It does break down to believe in me or be punished, because no matter how good of a life you lead, according to prevailing dogma without belief you burn. That's petty.

        "Ah wonderful life Akbar. I see you
        • I'm with you on this reasoning actually. It's hard NOT to interpret things this way when you really apply reason and logic.
          • If it bothers you, drop it if it doesn't resonate.

            Personally, I don't think that if there is a god and the Christians are right about him that he wants anything more than for you to live a good life. Simple, parental, loving and forgiving, not petty.

            Anyway, spirituality is a long and complex process. It's a journey. Some of us end up as atheistic taoists with overtones of buddhism and christian morality, others end up as hot-tubbing party christians, still others as goddess-sex having pagans, etc.

            You'
            • I'm not sure whether you understood that I was saying I agree with what you said. It does resonate for me.

              I do hate the fact that what I may come to believe now might totally change in 20 years when I realize I was COMPLETELY wrong. That has happened to me so many times. Sort of feel like I don't have the capacity to achieve my own views and be comfortable with them--I'll always be doubting and changing I guess.

              I think I ask about Christianity because so many people seem to see something in it, includi
        • Original sin. We're going to hold against you what your supposed several thousand years removed ancestors did. Both petty and tribal.

          Faulty understanding, again. Original sin, even in the most convservative of interpretations, is the doomed tendancy of children to sin as they grow up, because their parents sin, because THEIR parents sin, ad nauseum, up until you have Cain sining because of Adam.

          A poular Catholic theism holds that Mary (mother of God) was born without sin, and lived her entire life witho
          • You're wrong on original sin. Original sin is the doctrine wherein the sin which Adam committed is passed on as a hereditary stain(the source of death and the cause of all children being born with sin). Link [newadvent.org].

            Anyway, your assertion is that it doesn't matter how well you live your life, so long as you believe in god and Christ. Well, I'm not really sure what to say about that.
            • You're wrong on original sin.

              No, I'm not catholic. Cutting through the partisan bickering rife in the article you linked to, the Catholics believe that the bible supports them in the concept that all are born in a state of "sin", due to the original sin of Adam. Not all christians believe this to be so, but let's take it as part of the dogma for discussion.

              The actual mechanism whereby all persons are sinners is a matter of some debate. On one side, there are those that read the text as literal truth a
            • I read through that partisan treatise, and the Catholic church apparantly agrees with me. Go to section V(2)

              But according to Catholic theology man has not lost his natural faculties: by the sin of Adam he has been deprived only of the Divine gifts to which his nature had no strict right, the complete mastery of his passions, exemption from death, sanctifying grace, the vision of God in the next life.

              I always find it odd when, after reading through pomp and foolishness, I find that a theologian agrees w

    • "Couple things:
      One, forget the Bible as ultimate truth, it was put together by committee in the 2nd-4th centuries AD in order to support organized religion."

      The old testament was very much in place prior to the life of Christ. The new testament was by and large in place by the time of the early church fathers. Later councils primarily affirmed what was already in use and made judgments on works that did not have their status settled.

      In Corinthians Paul lays out cultural principles with application--
      • Old testament yes. New testament no. There were a great number of various christian sects with different sets of gospels and different sets of beliefs up until the adoption of Christianity by the Roman empire. There were even heated debates over whether there was one god or two, whether gentiles should be allowed in or not and whether Christ was the son of god or not.

        Once Christianity was adopted, the Gospels chrystalized into what we know them as today with little revision thereafter, and yes, it was b
        • This is a mischaracterization I think. The fact that splinter groups (usually tied to one person as a leader) existed doesn't mean that the whole community was fragmented. None of these sects survived the careful examination of a council- they were always rejected.

          The autographs of the NT were all written within the first century. And in fact it was people like Marcion (2 gods guy) who helped force the need for official recognition of what books were inspired. And the list put in place to deal with hi
          • You can call it an oversimplification if you like. I prefer to term each of the councils of various churches which met and decided on the gospels as a committee(which is oversimplification). It was a very organic process, as some of the ones which got left out trend away from supporting an organized and viable church. Remove Paul and/or replace John with Thomas and you get a very different set of ideas for example.

            If you can not observe a fact, it's not a fact. Faith works outside the realm of the obse
            • hmmm. well - i guess i would end with this (if nothing else because you are probably getting tired of me going on) but here's what I would say.

              I don't think facts exist based on observation. Maybe I'm using the word incorrectly. Then what I mean would be the term for something that exists independant of humanity- whether we know about it or not does not alter that it is there. I'm not saying that this proves anything-- just that not being able to percieve something does not make it nonexistant. Whethe
              • In logic, reason and science the burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. If you can't prove something, or offer any evidence(evidence being something which can be observed, directly or indirectly) that it exists, it's not fact(of course, there is no fact, just things we're pretty sure of). What you're doing is mixing in theology and philosophy in. Which is fine, but you're always going to have that one leap of faith before reason and logic can step in. Just understand that you're doing that.
                • by simple - i am contrasting finding historical information about what happened in the early church as opposed to philosophy of religion.

                  I think there is a solid objective argument for the validity of the books included in the current NT and their accuracy. I do restrict my belief in inherrancy to the autographs- but I think what we have now is so close to the autographs that what we have now is functionally the same. A leap of faith- well at most a small one. The work on this issue is in my mind overw
  • when we were having this discussion. It is a short book called "How good is good enough?" by Andy Stanley who is the pastor of North Point Community Church, which is very close to where Em lives (which has absolutely nothing to do with this story). Anyway, it's a good book, and I can try to find you a copy or maybe Sol could send it to you if she's finished reading it.
    • Sol would NOT send you a copy of that book. Ever. In fact, Solemn recommends that you go to the library and pick up Isaac Asimov's guide to the bible. No, i'm not kidding. It will explain to you two very important things:

      1. The bible isn't even HISTORICALLY accurate in many places, and

      2. The bible can still be relevant once it's not taken at face value.

      That book made me cry because i couldn't believe that a friend who really loved me and cared about me would make me read it, and really believe that i'm g
      • The bible isn't even HISTORICALLY accurate in many places, and

        It's long been popular to discredit the OT of the bible and the Gospels as "mere myth", instead of taking them for what they are: the history account of one of the oldest extant peoples (!) on the planet and the secret writings of a group that spent centuries oppressed by the dominant world power.

        For all we know, the OT and the Gospels could be totally and completely accurate. Archeology simply isn't precise enough to say more than "probably
      • I'm piggybacking off of Sol just because I think our beliefs are more in line than we'd probably acknowledge. We proclaim to be rather different things...but I'm not so sure how different they are. In fact, I'm not so sure that anyone is all that different if you widen the lens enough.

        Did you ever think of just listening? No more thinking. No more asking, just listen. Seriously. Just go outside and listen. Birds sing, crickets chip, cars zoom by, kids scream at who took the last jellybean...it's al

        • I understand what you're getting at. I've had those types of realizations looking at the existence of all these people in the world and how I don't understand the most microscopic fraction of a fraction of what's going on in the world, yet we all keep on plugging. I used to view "my world" as pretty small and all figured out. Pretty naive...at least it was safe. heh.

          Oh yeah, I do hate the process of growth, but it's worth it in more ways than I can imagine. It's what keeps the pain in check for me.

          I
      • You know I never apologize for my beliefs, but I also don't claim to know everything. Trust me, I would really love to believe that you and I are going to the same place. I would love to believe that EVERYONE who even TRIED to be good was going where I think I'm going. But that's not what my Bible says. And that's what I believe. I modify my interpretation of the meaning from time to time, but that's spelled out pretty clearly. I being good could get you into heaven, then Jesus died for no reason, whi
        • I being good could get you into heaven, then Jesus died for no reason, which means God made a mistake, and I can't accept that.
          What if man made a mistake in how he documented Christ's death or was corrupted somehow? It doesn't mean that God made a mistake. It doesn't mean that Christ didn't set an example for billions to follow.

          Your concerns are self-contained and self-defeating which I find to be highly immoral for people (not you!) to have propagated as a form of control (if that is indeed the case.)
        • god doesn't require that you accept his actions. sol said it very well in her post - that which brings you toward the light is identical with faith. separating the two (faith and goodness) is intellectually dishonest, but it allows people to rationalize bad behavior. jesus gave you a choice - choose light or darkness, love or hate. even an atheist may choose faith, though it is not understood as such. but god does not require that we understand.

          by interpreting god's actions through the lens of human
        • It says that you're growing up, although becoming active in suh a way isn't necessary, THINKING about it, examining the idea, is. In partciular, you're becoming aware of the split between where your limits are and how you behave. You behave as if your limits are irrelevant so long as you don't pass a certain point, when in reality, it's the physical lust that is the issue, not the acting on it.

          And yeah- it's ALWAYS easier to change the standards than the actions.

          Frankly, i think that you can do better, an
          • Yeah, I'd like to read the Narnia series together, but I don't know when I'd find the time. I have my set at home. Let me put The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe beside my bed and maybe I'll read a chapter before bed. Once I ever start, I'll be able to keep it up. I'll let you know when I start.
  • i think you're spot on about God being the author of the good stuff. one of the things i try to keep in mind about the bible is that most people don't try to claim that God himself wrote it down for us. that means it's filtered through the humans who did. as people's concept of God grew and evolved, so did the things they wrote about Him. the point of view thing explains a lot of contradictions. it doesn't say which version is correct, though.

    as for "design flaws" and the miraculous, reality relies he
    • also wanted to add some thoughts about hell. i myself do not believe in it. but i like these quotes about it:

      hell is myself.
      hell is other people.
  • From what you wrote hear, it seems like you are trying to find all of the answers through the Bible, but they may not be there. Shop around, if you will. There are a lot of other ways to be spiritual, many of which are not mutually exclusive with Christianity, if that's what you believe. And don't bother trying to label yourself- not everybody needs to be able to fit in a nice little box on the shelf in alphabetical order.

    Or you could just be an Agnostic Deist* like me.

    [*] Shockingly similar to the Apa
    • Some Woman, I think I *am* an Agnostic Deist--as far a I understand the term. To me, agnostic deist is one who reasons that there is a God, but hasn't decided upon a form or a religion for that God. Or something similar?

      I have been known to say I'm a former Lutheran, now agnostic. I never added the Deist part in, however.
      • Here's what it means to me:

        Agnostic: I don't believe that we can ever tell whether or not there is a god. This is not a statement of laziness, it is an realization that I have come to. I will never say that I believe, nor that I disbelieve, in a god. It's a silly argument, in my opinion.

        Deist: If there is a god, I am not entirely convinced that it is anything other than existant; it doesn't care about micromanaging your life.

        Tithes are payable to Some Woman Ministries, LLP.

  • there is SOMETHING that created us, or set the chain of events to create us in motion. We didn't just *poof* appear. No way.

    The answer to that is: we don't know yet. It is possible to answer questions with "unknown at this time." At one time we thought Adam and Eve started the human race, now we know better. At one time we thought the world was flat, now we know better. Eventually (probably not in our lifetime) we will know where this universe came from. Don't get too hung up on finding an answer if we ha

    • At one time we thought Adam and Eve started the human race, now we know better.

      Wrong. We know that all humanity traces its mitochondric DNA to one woman, dubbed "eve", and we know that the neolithic (sic) revolution happened about the same time the bible says Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden.

      At one time we thought the world was flat, now we know better.

      1: Only the ignorant ever thought the world to be flat. The educated were against Columbus's voyage because they knew that, if there wasn't A

      • Wrong. We know that all humanity traces its mitochondric DNA to one woman, dubbed "eve", and we know that the neolithic (sic) revolution happened about the same time the bible says Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden.

        That woman is the oldest human we've found so far. However she didn't just appear with a *poof*, she came from a long lineage of animals dating back billions of years.

        While there are crimes of organized religion, there are also many good things that comes from community and solidarity.

        • And those good things can likewise come out of communities developed for other, non-religious reasons. Organized religion advantages no one but the rulers of that religion.

          The first charities in the world were founded by pastors. The very concepts of philanthropy and merciful medical care had their roots in religious practices. While you can claim that they would have arisen anyway, that claim is belied by their absence from cultures that did not have religions that had such practicies.

          It's a basic rul
    • Organized religion is terrible for many reasons, I recommend you stay away from it and develop a way of life that works for you.

      While my actual position is not too far from yours (I don't participate in organized religion either), I find it really difficult to simply write off organized religion wholesale. There is something to be said for being able to find a significant community of like minded people who all live geographically close and you can rely on for support in childrearing and in other major li

      • Communities based on other things besides religion can be just as useful, gratifying, and promoting. I don't think it's good to invest your whole life into one community, which religions ask you to do. Also, I think it would be far better for people to invest their time in something more 'real', that is, something that applies directly to their life, such as a school or work community, a socioeconomic status community, etc.
        • invest your whole life into one community, which religions ask you to do.

          Care to document this? Last time I checked, my parents were involved in our Episcopal church community, the Christian Marriage Encounter community (which was a protestant variant on the Catholic-only Marriage Encounter, but was not associated with our Episcopal church), the PTA, our neighborhood, etc. Some religions do ask you to invest your whole life exclusively into one community, but they are the exception in my experience, not

  • I would suggest praying to God, asking him to reveal himself and his truth to you.

    I do believe that the Bible is God's revealed will- that all the answers are there if you look and ask for them to be shown to you. It is the user's manual so to speak- for humanity- straight from the manufacturer. So I would look there and pray- possibly read the accounts of others who have processed through the same struggle. I recommend Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ [amazon.com] and The Case For Faith [amazon.com]
  • Imagine, for a moment, that you're trapped in a spaceship forever. You're immortal, and you've played ever video game, read every book, and watched every movie so many times that you can recite them.

    Let's say that, in this spaceship, you decide to create an AI to keep you company. The first few ones you create are interesting, but once they're up and running they don't allievate your lonliness as much as share it--or worse, enhance it.

    So you decide to create more AI, but this time you want to give them
  • The real answers to these questions are all paradoxes wrapped up in enigmas obscured by riddles and myths. When you make sense of one, you can't even begin to explain it to someone else. Thus, the Tao: "He who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak."

    Religions are metaphors, that's not to dismiss them, not at all, some things can only be comprehended by metaphor, but they are all metaphors of the universal experience of spiritual fulfillment.

    So, whether one belongs to the Church of A Rose by
  • It really is weird because again we've had almost the same thought at the same time. Just two days ago I wrote something that I looked over yesterday but didn't get to put anywhere because I ran out of time. I'm not going to post it now either, I'll try to later tonight, but I think maybe we could get something going. I think it would help the both of us out. But more on that later. I've just taken in a lot of information and had to make a lot of hard decisions. Now it's time for a power nap, then I'll refl
  • ...when it comes to what church to go to, how to pray, and who to do it with. I grew up catholic, so I naturally didn't like going to church. It was a mechanical part of life that I just did because i always had. It really didn't mean anything. I think most Catholics are to the point where they don't think about what the prayers really mean or what the tradition is really about.

    So, i stopped going altogether. Eventually I went to church with a friend who is Baptist. The Baptists had a totally diff
  • I believe the Bible is semi-historical.

    I believe the Old Testament should be read with the following understanding:

    When the Torah was written, there was no political system in place. People gathered together around similar needs and beliefs. Religion was politics, and so the Torah, the Old Testament, and even the New Testament (to a lesser extent) should be viewed as a quasi-political document.

    Leviticus is entirely political. It's a health code, a legal code, and a form of taxes (keeping the Sons of Aaron

  • Okay, some of my answers below may come out slightly clichéed, but here goes:

    Hell God does not send people to hell. Hell (Gehenna) is simply "the outer darkness", ie separation from God. Anyone who ends up there has chosen it, wilfully or in ignorance.
    In the afterlife, Hell is simply anywhere that's not heaven. ie there's In God's Presence and !IGP.
    I once heard a preacher say "If anyone is in hell, it won't be for their sins, but for rejecting God's provision for their sins."
    That provision is Jesus
  • Cause now I'm a late poster. I hate being a late poster. :)

    However I have these fundamental problems:

    * I try to pray and I feel like I'm talking to myself alone.
    I sometimes get this too. Usually I stop and start over. Does it happen all the time?

    * I try to "connect with God" and I don't feel it.
    As I was told when I asked why my mom died when I was 1, "the Lord works in mysterious ways". That statement (I believe I was 9 or so at the time) made me learn to hate. First God, which I got ov
    • Why did you wait til night to post this?
      Because that's when I'm able to think about things! :) Sorry Em.

      Usually I stop and start over. Does it happen all the time?
      All my life. I've never felt anything other than weird speaking in my mind to someone that didn't seem to be there. When I was a kid, I accepted it and thought I was a bad kid. Now that I'm older, I question what my parents and the church told me.

      The fundamental truth in the bible is two things: 1: Accept God, live a good life, come to

  • I'm on a rollercoaster religiously. I was brought up a Christian and I feel like i have many Christian facets incorporated into my mind: guilt, self-doubt, fear. Um, seriously, sorry: love, consideration for others, compassion.

    I'm convinced that the guilt, self-doubt, and fear came from the church (i.e. humans) and the good things came from the Bible. Granted, there also seems to be a lot of contradictory information in the Bible too, but the prime motivation in the New Testament, especially the Gospels

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