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Comment Re:Two simple questions. (Score 2) 177

Devil’s advocate here: if the switches failed electronically (perhaps downstream from the switches themselves) and then the fault rectified itself, the recording on the flight data recorder would be the same. The physical switches may have remained in the RUN position the whole time. The pilot asking “why did you cut off” may have been asking based on engine thrust rolling back, and warnings on cockpit displays showing fuel cutoff active.

Let's analyze your scenario. Both switches happen to fail only electrically but remain in RUN position. The pilot noted that the fuel had been switched off was looking at what? Note the pilot asked about the switched specifically being set to CUTOFF. The pilot did not ask why he lost power or why the engines spun down or at 0% power. He asked why the switches were in CUTOFF. Then in your scenario they started working again.

As far as I know "cutoff" is not lingo for "engine rolling back" The pilot would say "Engine rolling back" Also I am not sure the cockpit would display "Fuel Cutoff Active". I would surmise it would say Fuel SYS Inactive or Fuel SYS Active as Fuel Cutoff Active is a double negative of a condition. Just like the plane would show AUTOPILOT ENGAGED or AUTOPILOT DISABLED. The warning would not be AUTOPILOT NOT ENGAGED or AUTOPILOT NOT DISABLED.

Comment Re:Why would it be possible (Score 1) 177

We should always discard such documents and listen to the aviation "experts" on Slashdot. After all, they are not only great engineers, but also have a long history of polishing a pilot's armchair in their mom's basement.

Both Airbus and Boeing follow the same basic design for these switches. The switches are there to stop the engines midflight especially if it is on fire. Between the two companies they have made thousands of aircraft. But we should listen to you instead? And what are your qualifications then? Let me guess you don't live in your mom's basement; you live in her attic.

Comment Re: Tier 2 time. (Score 1) 177

I have not read the report and I don't know the B787. But people keep saying the FDR recorded the switches being flipped. I am not sure that there is a microswitch sensor that is wired to record the mechanical state of the switch. There might not be anything like that except in some fuel control computer at the end of the wire. Or even later in the chain.

The problem is with the OP's assertion that somehow the switch was never physically flipped to RUN but stayed in CUTOFF the entire flight. Then in Airmode, the controls remembered the physical position of CUTOFF. I could only find the start-up procedure of a 787-8 simulator but it clearly lists

To start an engine:

  1. Set the engine start switch of the engine you want to start (L/R) to the START position
  2. Move the engine master switch (L/R) from CUT OFF to the RUN position
  3. Monitor the engine start on the EICAS

And if the electronics anywhere is this chain malfunctioned, what makes you think the circuit recording it would also not be malfunctioning?

You mean other than the fact the pilot asked the other pilot about it? I take the voice exchange to mean one pilot could physically see the switch had been toggled to CUTOFF. Then the switches got toggled back to RUN.

(We don't even know how the PM even noticed the fuel cutoff. Switch position?

The switch is right below the throttle. It is easy enough to see; however, the PF eyes should have been focused on other things during takeoff but throttle position would be something the pilots should be aware.

Some digital display screen? Sound of engines spooling down? The entire total shit scenario happened VERY quickly, and the pilots were quite confused about it.)

How about looking at the switch itself. Figure 13 of the report.

Comment Re:Why would it be possible (Score 1) 177

Remember MCAS? Here's a thought - could there be some sneaky Boeing software that flips the fuel system state (which would then register on the data recorder as a pilot-initiated hard switch) without the knowledge of the pilots?

That is possible but this 787-8 was not new and had been with Air India for 11 years. The MCAS related crashes was on brand new 737-MAX planes servicing Air Lion and Ethiopian Airlines, 2 months and 4 months respectively. Any software would likely be older and the plane had flown for over a decade on Air India.

but must be pulled and toggled

Not according to SAIB NM-18-33. Some switches were installed that disabled the "pull" requirement.

Comment Re:Why doesn't this exist? (Score 1) 51

Please explain what that has to do with anything I wrote in this thread, where I talk about using it to CHECK legal briefs, not to WRITE them [slashdot.org]. You're doing a worse job of reading than a LLM.,

You seem not to understand that current LLMs suffer greatly from inaccuracy. Checking legal briefs require the LLM to UNDERSTAND them which they cannot do. As the other person pointed out that is not possible. Your response is if they had access to "actual resources". But please point me to a LLM that can CHECK legal briefs for accuracy. I'll wait..

Comment Re:Tier 2 time. (Score 1) 177

Again, as posted elsewhere in this discussion, there was and is an FAA bulletin regarding those (and other) switches, that the locking feature might not work correctly (or at all). Where I work we use similar switches that go into products. The lockout tabs are tiny and could easily wear away and/or be broken off.

No the FAA bulletin was that some of the switches were installed with the locks disabled. It is possible that the lock failed but the bulletin was not about that.

As I posted above, IMHO it's (obviously) too easy to inadvertently cut off the engine fuel. It needs to be made more difficult, including spring-loaded covers over the switches.

That is a possibility of adding another mechanism. The investigators need to determine if the locks worked first.

Comment Re:Regulations written in blood (Score 1) 177

I'm sorry for your emotionality. Feel free to calm down and come back to this discussion.

And I await your return from the restaurant. The beating you'll get may alert you to the possibility that your premise of "India and Pakistan have similar cultures" might be highly flawed. But based of your reliance on speculations and falsehoods, it does not seem likely.

Comment Re:Tier 2 time. (Score 1) 177

an FAA advisory from 2018 indicated that the mechanical locks on these switches can wear out and fail to engage

No the SAIB NM-18-33 advisory did not say that. The advisory said these switches have a locking mechanism to prevent accidental flips. Some of them were installed with the locking mechanism disabled. "The Boeing Company (Boeing) received reports from operators of Model 737 airplanes that the fuel control switches were installed with the locking feature disengaged." Over time, the switch could wear out and fail to engage but the advisory was more concerned about "inadvertent operation".

Comment Re:Regulations written in blood (Score 1) 177

Did you just claim that assertions made based on facts presented in preliminary report as well as references to another mishap in a similar culture and cultural references are all "not evidence"?

Bahahahahaha. Everything you presented was based on another country, in another plane, under different circumstances. But they are similar because you said they were. According to you. Based on your recollections. Of falsehoods.

P.S. Why do you think Indians and Pakistani would behave like that in a restaurant?

If you don't know you should go to the nearest Indian restaurant and call them Pakistani. I'll wait for your return.. Hint: the thought that Indian and Pakistani are not similar cultures never crossed your mind, did it?

Comment Re:Regulations written in blood (Score 1) 177

Correct. Because those are countries with very similar culture of corruption that used to be same country within living memory, who both base their current systems largely on this heritage.

Bahahaa. These countries are similar according to you. Go into your nearest Indian restaurant and call everyone Pakastani. I'll wait.

As this is looking like suicide (due to one second discrepancy in switch off of fuel to each engine, i.e. "click - click", not "double click" (unless reporting resolution is 1 second, and whichever one did it hit it just at right time where one hit previous second on the tracker, and one on the next).

Ah yes. More rampant speculation by you based on no evidence. Listen, I'm not saying it was aliens . . . but it was aliens.

Summary: this raises more questions than gives answers. Wait for final report, as that will involve Boeing and FAA to a much greater degree and there will be more time to ascertain documentation and identity of pilots among other things.

Summary: you will make assertions based on no evidence. When challenged you present even more wild claims. Based on no evidence. It's turtles all the way down, eh?

Comment Re: Tier 2 time. (Score 1) 177

One possibility I can think of is that switches were set on ground during takeoff roll, but while the aircraft's wheels were on ground, ground logic would apply.

I doubt the switches to turn on the fuel supply would be set to off yet the pilots could start the engines only while on the ground. It would have been one of the things the pilots set to RUN when starting the plane. The data recorder notes the switches were flipped 3 seconds only after take off.

Doesnt explain why it the switches were set to cutoff but it could have happened well before takeoff.

I doubt the switches could have been set to CUTOFF during takeoff as the preliminary report states the change in position. That would be a recipe for disaster for controls to work like that. We will have to wait for the final report but I would guess it would register that the pilots set the position to RUN while starting the engines.

Comment Re:A more freaky world than it used to be (Score 1) 177

WHY THE FUCK should anyone have the option to disable accidental use of the FUEL CUT OFF switch? That's about as retarded as it gets.

There was no option tor the airlines or pilots to disable the locking feature. Some switches installed by Boeing disabled the feature by mistake. The FAA advised airlines to inspect and replace the switches back in 2018; however, it was not a mandate. Air India did not have to do either if they did not want.

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