Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook


Forgot your password?
Slashdot Deals: Deal of the Day - Pay What You Want for the Learn to Code Bundle, includes AngularJS, Python, HTML5, Ruby, and more. ×

Comment Re:seriously? (Score 1) 37

Are the other variants more dialectal? In addition to huoji ( / ) (fire chicken) what I read states that there's also qimianniao ( / ) (seven-faced bird), tujinji ( / ) (cough up a brocade chicken) and tushouji ( / ) (cough up a ribbon chicken)

(hope Slashdot doesn't mess up the characters)

Comment Re:seriously? (Score 1) 37

On the other hand I would want to talk to Archimedes

You speak ancient Greek and can communicate with the dead? Okay, I'm impressed. ;)

Thanksgiving trivia for the day: the word for "turkey" comes from extensive and long-running confusion about where the bird came from. For example, in English it's called Turkey. In Turkey it's called "hindi", referring to India. In India it's called Peru. In Peru it's called "pavo", referring to peacocks, which are native to south and southeast asia, such as India (cyclic there), Cambodia, Malaysia, etc. In Cambodia (Khmer) it's called "moan barang", meaning "French chicken", while in Malaysia it's referred to as "ayam belanda", meaning "Dutch chicken". Both of those in turn think it comes from India: in French it's called "dinde" (from "poulet d’Inde", aka "chicken of India"), while in Dutch it's "kalkoen", referring to a place in India. Greek has a number of local dialectal names, such as misírka, meaning "egyptian bird", while in Egypt it's called dk rm, meaning the Greek bird (even though the latter part of the name derives from Rome - the Italians, by the way, thinking it comes from India). One variant of Arabic even credits it to Ethiopia.

A couple languages deserve special credit for their words:

Best accuracy: Miami indian - nalaaohki pileewa, meaning "native fowl"
Worst accuracy: A tie between Albanian (gjel deti, "sea rooster"); Tamil (vaan kozhi, "sky chicken"); and Swahili (bata mzinga, "the great duck")
Most creative: Mandarin - many names with meanings such as "cough up a ribbon chicken" and "seven-faced bird"
Least creative: Blackfoot: ómahksipi'kssíí, meaning "big bird". Hmm...

Comment Re:The guy aint no Sagan... (Score 1) 277

Except that your cost examples are based around the price of rocks brought back as a "oh and we're going to do this too" mission add-on. It would be like as if I flew to America to visit my grandmother for Christmas via purchasing a $700 plane ticket and while I was there I bought a $15 sweater and brought it back, and you said, "See, she paid $715 to go to America and buy a sweater - American sweaters are unjustifiably expensive!" You simply cannot take the cost of the Apollo mission, divide by the mass of rocks returned, and pretend that that's anything even remotely close to the cost of retrieval per gram.

What's the actual cost of space mining? It's too early to say. But the mining of NEOs could be as little as *zero* dollars per gram (excluding capital costs and maintenance), insomuch as it would be possible to fire sintered minerals (using solar power) via a coilgun onto an aerocapture trajectory. You don't actually have to have a rocket to bring them back. What would the capital costs be like? That we don't know - again, it's too early to say. But it's normal for large mines on Earth to cost billions of dollars, and what one can do with a large mine on Earth one could do with a vastly smaller mine on a NEO due to the superb mineral concentrations on some of them. There are a number of peer-reviewed papers putting forth that it could work out to be economical (I was reading one from the USGS just the other day) as a result of this.

But time will tell. It's going to take a lot more basic research and engineering before we can get a good sense of just what it would cost to get what sort of throughput of what sort of minerals.

Comment Re:Space-based Economy (Score 2) 277

As usual, "pop science" news overstated the case. We know that there's ppm quantities of water in most lunar regolith, but that's not what people usually talk about. There's also a good degree of confidence that there's a lot of *hydroxyl* group in a lot of places on the moon. But the connection between that and the group being specifically water is much weaker - and many missions sent to detect water in likely areas have failed. The best evidence for water have come from Chandrayaan and LRO, examining craters that were considered likely to find ice. They have both failed to find "slabs" of ice in the crater, but found evidence for ice grains in the regolith - about 5% according to LRO. On Earth that would be considered dry soil, but it's something at least.

Of course, if you're constraining yourself to such craters, you're really constraining where you can go. On the general lunar surface, the sun bakes water out of the regolith.

Iron, aluminum, and titanium are very useful for making things

They're all tightly locked up as oxides, without the raw materials that we use to refine them on Earth being available. There are however tiny grains of raw iron in the regolith, so there is some potential to comb it out magnetically. Still, asteroids present by far better resource options in much greater concentrations.

There really is just no reason to do your work in a gravity well as deep as the moon's, and then have to break out of it, when you can just mine NEOs. Yes, it's "half the gravity of Mars", but it's vastly more than asteroids. Rockets with a couple thousand spare m/s delta-V don't just grow on lunar trees.

Comment Re:Space-based Economy (Score 1) 277

The moon's surface is kind of boring, as far as geology goes. Aluminum oxide, titanium oxide, iron oxide, silicon dioxide... by and large it's stuff that's really common on Earth. And not much of the common stuff that's super-useful, like water. And really, it's way more of a gravity well than is ideal to have.

Comment Re:Cost of access is key. (Score 1) 277

No no, we can get much more than a 1-2% improvement in chemical rocket performance. The issue is that for our needs thusfar (large objects to LEO and GEO, small objects further out with long transit times and gravity assists or ion propulsion), H2/O2 has been fine and it's not been worth all of the headaches of more energy dense fuel mixtures, like Li-(LF2|FLOX|OF2)-LH2 triprop. But we can indeed get a 25% improvement in ISP if we're willing to work with very hazardous, toxic chemicals (at least the resultant LiF isn't as toxic as F2!). It was already done in a lab-scale development back in the late 1960s. And let's not kid ourself, NASA has indeed launched successful missions using toxic, corrosive and dangerous chemicals as propellants. But this would be a new upper bound in this regard. I doubt they'd ever use a propellant like that on a lower stage, but for an upper stage or a return stage... it's a possibility.

Without invoking significant toxicity we can improve the picture somewhat. Burning the lithium with O2 (and of course H2 for exhaust flow reasons) is also a very high energy propellant, but it still means working with metallic lithium in some form or another (liquid, hybrid, slurry, cryosolid, etc), which most people would really like to avoid. But it is possible to do.

A small boost to H2/O2 can be made with aluminum - it only boosts the Isp a few percent (I believe about 4%-ish, though I'd have to double check), but it also gives a nice secondary bonus of really increasing your propellant density. Aluminum is neither dangerous nor toxic, but burning it with the H2/O2, and in a reliable manner, hasn't been tackled yet.

Boron is another high-energy compound one can use. As is beryllium (Be-F2-H2 is even more powerful than Li-F2-H2 by a small margin), but it's hugely expensive and extremely toxic in dust form.

Beyond all of the "familiar" stuff there's a lot of research on more exotic compounds with strained chemical bonds which remain in a metastable state until burned; there's way too many such compounds to list here. But at present they all generally suffer from either production cost issues or problematic instabilities.

Oh, and you can also improve performance by increasing the chamber pressure. That said, it's rather modest - if I recall a doubling of chamber pressure is usually on the order of a 7% ISP boost. But it does mean that advances in material technologies can translate to advances in rocket ISP. And there's also a wide range of other modifications to engine design that could boost rocket ISP to lesser extents.

Comment Re:Cost of access is key. (Score 1) 277

Staging works pretty well to get around the energy density problem, at least early on.. though the rocket equation starts getting pretty tyrranical when it comes to returns from other planetary bodies. It's really hard to conceive of a manned Mars mission with return that doesn't involve at least the return ascent stage being fueled by one of the following:

1) In-situ propellant production
2) Extreme-ISP chemical propellant
3) Nuclear thermal

You can't rely on ion propulsion (even higher power variants like VASIMR) to get you off the ground. Nuclear thermal (1) should work (NERVA showed promise), but the development costs will be huge and it'd face massive public opposition, having that much nuclear fuel on a single craft. It also puts a rather large minimum size for your ascent stage - fission doesn't scale down well, and even as big as it was NERVA only had a thrust to weight ratio of 3 to 4. And the mass of that large, heavy ascent stage imposes significant mass penalties on your earlier stages, partially negating the benefit of that 800-1100 sec ISP.

For more advanced chemicals (2), there's lots of theoretical stuff, but with stuff that we could do today for a practical cost, it'd probably pretty much have to be some variant of lithium/fluorine/hydrogen triprop. The oxidizer could be LF, FLOX, OF2, or a couple other possibilities... but if you want an ISP(vac) from chemical propellants in 500-550 range and good density, that's pretty much what you have to do (yes, the LM and CSM used toxic, corrosive, dangerous propellants too, and NASA managed fine, but these are even worse). And even still, 500-550 sec is low enough that you'd probably still want some sort of ion "tug" cycler to move you between LEO and LMO, with your fuel only used for ascent.

If you don't want to or can't do either of those two options (#2 and #3), you're pretty much stuck with in-situ production (unless you want to have to launch a LOT of tonnage into orbit!) Which is why that's SpaceX's focus... it probably is the best option. Still, though, it's a challenge and a risk, no question.

Comment Re:Windows 7 (Score 2) 320

Funny, because I had an laptop that came with Vista SP1. Later when I upgraded it to Windows 7, I wondered why I even bothered since it looked and performed exactly the same.

And I had a laptop that came with Vista. It was totally unusable. Then SP1 came out and it became mildly usable. Then I got Windows 7 on it and the difference was like night and day. Boot times were cut by far more than half. Time to usability after login, likewise. Responsiveness increased dramatically. Crashes reduced likewise. Windows 7 in particular uses less memory than Vista; Vista chokes on 2GB systems and doesn't become acceptable until 3 or 4GB, and 7 is acceptable in 512MB and fine in 1GB. This is not a big deal today when RAM is practically free — I have 16GB in my budget desktop, and that only because I like to run virtual machine and keep them running while I run big, memory-hungry apps. At the time, it was a big deal.

Comment Re:Affirmative Action won't take us to Mars. (Score 1) 277

I think his job is more "ticking large numbers of people off". For example, he was one of the leaders behind the "Pluto, Eris, Ceres, etc aren't planets" movement - he had references to Pluto being a planet removed from the Hayden Planetarium years before the IAU vote. He's not exactly popular among those who felt that hydrostatic equilibrium was the relevant constraint and that the "cleared the neighborhood" definition is fundamentally flawed.

Comment Re:The guy aint no Sagan... (Score 1) 277

Which is silly, because the Apollo mission was primarily oriented around the physics of getting a bunch of large mammals into space, keeping them alive on the way to the moon, landing them on the moon, keeping them alive down there while they explore, and then doing all of that in reverse. If they hadn't brought a single rock back the total change to the mission cost would have been almost unnoticeable.

Furthermore, who's focused on mining the moon? Most mining proposals focus on mining NEOs. It's way easier to get material from a NEO to Earth aerocapture. You could do it with a coilgun with no expenditure of consumables, again and again for years on end. They're also far more rich in interesting materials - much better than the best mines on Earth, and with no overburden.

"Free markets select for winning solutions." -- Eric S. Raymond