Marxist Hacker 42's Journal: Creating a soft Maximum Wage

It just occured to me that a way to gain the benefits of a Maximum Wage without really implementing one would be to enact the following into law:

1. Every year, the IRS must report to Congress the Maximum Gross Income Reported by the top individual.
2. Congress divides that number by 100 to get Minimum Yearly Income, aka the True Poverty Level. This is then divided by 2080 to get the Legal Hourly Minimum Wage.

I wonder how much Bill Gates earned last year?

Of course, the negative point of this would be unleashing rampant inflation on that portion of the population who are on fixed incomes; but theoretically any of them could get a minimum wage job someplace when a minimum wage income exceeds their retirement funds.

tax stats

[eglamkowski]

A few years behind, but:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,0 0.html [irs.gov]

Top 1 percent Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) break (TY 2003): $295,495
Number of returns with AGI $1M or more (TY 2003): 182,932

Note, that's AGI of 1 million or more, not gross income.

See also:
All Returns: Selected Income and Tax Items
Classified by: Size and Accumulated Size of Adjusted Gross Income
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/04in11si.xls [irs.gov]

Lots more data at http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0, ,id=96981,00.html [irs.gov]
ht [irs.gov]

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

It is interesting- but there's a huge gap between the top 1%, and the very top earner- based on NBA salaries alone I'd guess at least a factor of 10.

BTW, if we were going on the top 1% rather than the very top income- minimum wage is already 5x what it should be ($1.42/hr is what I got based on a top salary of $295,495).

A factor of 10?

[benhocking]

I'd guess more like a factor of 100 or 1,000. I.e., I'd guess that your strategy (for better or worse) would put the "poverty" level at over $1M.

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Uh, did I drop a decimal place someplace? Let's redo the math:
$295,495/year/100=2,954.95/year/2080~=$1.42/hr. Nope, I was dividing by 100.

Oh, I see. No, the factor of 10 was the difference between an NBA player salary (always seems to be in the millions) vs the top 1% salary (in the hundreds of thousands). Nothing to do with the minimum wage calculation itself, had to do with the input number.

Maybe I misunderstood your thesis

[benhocking]

I'm claiming (ad nihilo) that the top AGI might very well exceed $100M (i.e., that the top AGI might be 100-1000x the top 1%). Dividing that by 100 to get "poverty" would thus result in $1M being defined as "poverty". It's pure speculation, mind you, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. (By "unreasonable", I'm referring to the belief that the top AGI might exceed $100M - not whether or not that's "right" or desirable.)

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'm claiming (ad nihilo) that the top AGI might very well exceed $100M (i.e., that the top AGI might be 100-1000x the top 1%). Dividing that by 100 to get "poverty" would thus result in $1M being defined as "poverty". It's pure speculation, mind you, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me. (By "unreasonable", I'm referring to the belief that the top AGI might exceed $100M - not whether or not that's "right" or desirable.)

I have no idea- since I've yet to see any billionaire's tax records and the title of

Don't dispute your basic argument

[benhocking]

Your proposal (or anything close) will never happen, of course, but that has nothing to do with its merits. I also found your logic basically sound when arguing with Homeless - if someone is working diligently, it's fairly difficult to argue that someone else's work is worth 100 times his.

If you haven't already read it, I'd recommend Walden Two. It's nothing like Walden - so much unlike it that I have no idea why Skinner named it Walden Two. Walden Two is easy to read and is set in a communal-like environ

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Thanks- I'll add it to my reading list. Manna [marshallbrain.com] is also a good read- and shows us a way to achieve distributism within capitalism (by forming a corporation, selling shares, buying up land with the natural resources we need, and only after we've got self-sufficiency do we form the commune). I'm *seriously* thinking about starting an Oregon Project towards that; based on the idea of alternative (and specifically ambient) energy farming, to produce an income and a good that the world needs.

Armed men taking your money

[corbettw]

So just to be clear, you're in favor of having armed men forcibly taking money from people just because they made more than some arbitrary amount? How is that not Communism?

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

So just to be clear, you're in favor of having armed men forcibly taking money from people just because they made more than some arbitrary amount?

I was- but this seems a MUCH better option. Instead of armed men taking the money just because you made more than some arbitrary amount, armed men say that you must pay your workers 1/100th what the richest man in America gets. Same ending, less violence; we're already used to a minimum wage and the specific numbers really don't matter because inflation and do

Re:

[corbettw]

Work a minimum, and you only deserve a life 1/100th as good as Bill Gates.

But what if someone is worth less than 1/100th of a Bill Gates? If he earns $1 billion in a year, why should a burger flipper who dropped out of high school and can't read earn $10 million a year? And if suddenly those burger flippers are earning that kind of money, what would that do to the economy? And what about a small business person who doesn't earn a wage themselves, but lives on the profits of their business, are you saying th

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

But what if someone is worth less than 1/100th of a Bill Gates?

Exactly the anti-American attitude many people seem to have today. What makes one person worth more than another? HARD WORK. But can one person really be working 1000 times harder than another person? The compensation seems to be non-linear when it should be linear.

If he earns $1 billion in a year, why should a burger flipper who dropped out of high school and can't read earn $10 million a year?

Because otherwise you get revolutions. S

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

PS- maybe you're not in agreement with the Declaration of Independance. Do you believe all men were created equal? Or do you believe in monarchy and nobility instead- that some people were created more equal than others? It just occured to me that you're arguing for the second- that some people get a better chance because of circumstances of birth- racism in other words.

Re:

[corbettw]

People are born with equality of rights, not equality of circumstance or ability. If you really think the Declaration of Independence argues for the latter, you need to go back and re-read all of the Enlightenment philosophers who inspired the Founders in the first place.

You use the word "should" a lot in your arguments. Children argue that life "should" be a certain way, adults accept the way the world is and work within it. This isn't meant as flamebait, I'm just pointing out that making these kinds of le

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

People are born with equality of rights, not equality of circumstance or ability.

Agreed. And as an INVENTION OF MAN- income is rights, not circumstances or ability.

If you really think the Declaration of Independence argues for the latter, you need to go back and re-read all of the Enlightenment philosophers who inspired the Founders in the first place.

I don't think it does. In fact, I think the major problem of both the Founders and the Communists was attempting to make it so. But I also don't thin

Re:

[corbettw]

You know, I had this whole reply written up, but I just realized, it won't do any good. Either you're a complete troll and don't mean what you say, or you're a lot dumber than I thought, in which case it won't do any good. Either, nothing will be gained by continuing any kind of conversation with you about economics, you just don't know enough about the subject to have a thoughtful conversation, though you apparently think you do.

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You know, I had this whole reply written up, but I just realized, it won't do any good. Either you're a complete troll and don't mean what you say, or you're a lot dumber than I thought, in which case it won't do any good. Either, nothing will be gained by continuing any kind of conversation with you about economics, you just don't know enough about the subject to have a thoughtful conversation, though you apparently think you do.

I'm not trolling. I'm very interesting in the answer to ONE major question:

Re:

[corbettw]

Do you think that some human beings are born with so much more legal rights than other people that they essentially deserve a higher salary for same work input and same output in goods or services?

Bill Gates (to use your example) and a burger flipper (to use mine) are not doing the same work. The value of the work done by the burger flipper is worth far, far less than the work done by Bill Gates. This is determined by the market, and is not subject to governmental interference (not yet, anyway).

Your problem

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Bill Gates (to use your example) and a burger flipper (to use mine) are not doing the same work. The value of the work done by the burger flipper is worth far, far less than the work done by Bill Gates.

Granted. I'm saying, at least for the sake of argument, that human beings do not vary in the amount of work they do by more than a factor of 100. Do you have proof that Bill Gates works MORE than 100x as hard as a burger flipper?

This is determined by the market, and is not subject to governmental interf

Re:

[Copid]

Granted. I'm saying, at least for the sake of argument, that human beings do not vary in the amount of work they do by more than a factor of 100. Do you have proof that Bill Gates works MORE than 100x as hard as a burger flipper?

It's harder for a man to fill a 2 liter bottle with his own spit than it is for his competitor to make 2 liters of iced tea. Given the choice, I'll pay the iced tea vendor more money for less work any day and not loose a wink of sleep over the unfairness of the result.

Re:

[ces]

Most economists and political scientists recognize there can be a problem if the gap between the rich and the poor becomes too wide. You get revolutions and other sorts of political and economic instability. No less a Capitalist than Alan Greenspan has warned against allowing the wage gap to become too large.

Healthy economies and healthy democracies need a healthy middle class.

The flip side is in many much more managed economies such as France, who your parents are and where you went to school is much more

Re:

[corbettw]

I'm not sure what the answer is

I'm pretty sure that forcing employers to pay artificially high wages that lead directly to run away inflation isn't it.

Think of the Slashdot moderation guidelines: it's better to mod something up than mod something else down. In the same way, it's better to help a poor person make themselves better than to punish someone who's been successful. Low-interested microloans, SBA help including tutoring for would-be entrepreneurs, maybe a GI Bill for starting your own business, the

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'm pretty sure that forcing employers to pay artificially high wages that lead directly to run away inflation isn't it.

Absolutely. Granted. But what I'm saying is that our fear of inflation is WAY overblown- avoiding inflation has become a mantra that keeps us from helping our fellow human beings.

Re:

[ces]

Low-interested microloans, SBA help including tutoring for would-be entrepreneurs, maybe a GI Bill for starting your own business,

All good ideas. I'd also make access to college financially easier.

The system as it is really isn't set up for older people who need/want to go back to school for some reason.

these would all work much better than paying burger flippers $10 million per year.

While I support a minimum wage I don't support pushing it much past $12/hr or so.

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

While I support a minimum wage I don't support pushing it much past $12/hr or so.

The way I see it- specific numbers in minimum wage don't matter. $5.13/hr, $7.50/hr, $12/hr, or $10 million/year- by the time inflation settles out the new price structure to pay for the labor, it's all going to have the same buying power.

That's why I want it indexed on the maximum possible income- that way the minimum wage can chase the maximum wage (with a reasonable delay) all the way up to infinity and it won't matter o

Re:

[ces]

So just to be clear, you're in favor of having armed men forcibly taking money from people just because they made more than some arbitrary amount? How is that not Communism?

Most developed countries do that already, it is called a graduated income tax.

Re:

[corbettw]

Thank you for making the point that progressive income taxes are communistic. That's my thought exactly.

Scarcity

[Phukko]

I've considered this for about the length of time to read your comments & replies...

what about Scarcity?

If Bill Gates skill set was as common as the burger flipper, yeah.. pay them the same.
But they are not , are they? No more than a diamond is worth the same as a piece of granite of equal weight.

Yes, value is an artificial construct, created by man and civilization, but until we revert back to the stone age, there will continue to be huge gaps between the highly skilled and the not so skilled.

MH, I'm g

Re:

[Marxist Hacker 42]

what about Scarcity?

Money isn't scarce- money is largely imaginary and therefore almost without limit (I suppose, at some point, there's a limit to the amount of data you can record- but it's extremely large). Goods are scarce, not money.

If Bill Gates skill set was as common as the burger flipper, yeah.. pay them the same.

We'll never know if Bill Gates' skill set is as common as the burger flipper- few people have millionaire parents willing to set them up in business when they drop out of college.